Concerned that Razor Caltrops could become OP

StarOfElyon

If ZOS increases the damage by 36% (I think that's what I read), this skill will be overloaded. It snares, it applies major breach, and it will do lots of damage. Now, I don't mind it so much because I use it in PVE, but in a PVP environment everyone and their grandma will be spamming this skill and it will become unbearable. I suggest that this skill be left as it is and the other morph should be reworked instead.

Give anti-calvery Caltrops the damage increase instead and actually make that morph worth something. Otherwise why even have "choices" if only one is actually good?

YandereGirlfriend

Even with the damage increase Caltrops isn't going to be killing players in PvP.

It's useful for the Major Breach and is already spammed since players move out of it and the debuff only lasts a few seconds.

I will say that it is interesting that they buffed both morphs. I had expected that if they buffed it then it would have been Anti-Cavalry Caltrops since it is currently all but unused in any content.

Brrrofski

I don't see it being an issue.

It'll do like 200 more damage per second in PvP. So it's not a lot.

Plus I'm already not standing in it because I don't want to lose resistances.

Septimus_Magna

This change is pretty good, its a DOT so it wont affect PVP too much.
For PVE stamina DDs can use some extra AOE dmg so its nice but not overly powerful.

Caltrops will still be pretty weak compared to necro's Unnerving Boneyard.

GreenHere

Approximately two forevers ago I saw a suggestion that made a lot of sense to me. The gist was something like this:

• Make Razor Caltrops a strong DoT with a weak snare, and let it apply Major Breach/Fracture (this last part did happen)
• Make (whatever Anti-Cavalry was called before) the opposite -- a weak DoT with a strong snare, and give it stamina draining for both on-foot and mounted players (similar to oil catapults) so it'll be actually useful in PvP
• Give both morphs a short travel time, similar to Endless Hail so sharp-eyed players can avoid it if they are on their game
• Give both morphs ramping costs, similar to Streak, to cut down on people spamming it (this was back when we had cost reduction CPs & Caltrops had an upfront burst damage, though; probably not needed now)

I didn't pay super close attention to Caltrops' evolution, to be honest... and my memory of how it's gone is also a bit fuzzy. But IIRC we went from it being kind of a must-have skill for every stam build to it being a metal confetti meme skill.

AoE Major Breach is nice, but not that nice where the damage of the skill that applies it should be lol-worthy. I think the buff to Caltrops is fairly... well, fair. More testing needed I suppose, but it's a kind of underwhelming skill currently on Live servers, no? I'm happy to see a low skill being brought UP for a change!

oscarovegren

The buff was needed for PvE and the calltropz never kills you in PvP. The breach and snare is the mainreason people use it.
Nothing to even care about honestly

StarOfElyon

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

This change is pretty good, its a DOT so it wont affect PVP too much.
For PVE stamina DDs can use some extra AOE dmg so its nice but not overly powerful.

Caltrops will still be pretty weak compared to necro's Unnerving Boneyard.

Unnerving Boneyard doesn't snare though so if you can avoid the synergy there's nothing to worry about there. But razor caltrops can be used to snare so that you can't avoid burst (like sub-assault + dawnbreaker). This change to the breach morph of Caltrops was just plain unnecessary as the skill was strong enough already, in my opinion.

AcadianPaladin

My archers used to use caltrops for breach and AoEDoT. After the last nerf, we shelved it for Night Mother's Gaze (breach) and volley (AoEDoT). As @GreenHere said above, breach is nice combined with an AoEDot but not if the Dot is lol-worthy.

Will evaluate the new caltrops after it goes live and see if it can earn a slot again.

StarOfElyon

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

My archers used to use caltrops for breach and AoEDoT. After the last nerf, we shelved it for Night Mother's Gaze (breach) and volley (AoEDoT). As @GreenHere said above, breach is nice combined with an AoEDot but not if the Dot is lol-worthy.

Will evaluate the new caltrops after it goes live and see if it can earn a slot again.

It's an aoe breach debuff so I think that is the trade-off for damage. The other morph is just sitting there. I also hate the way ZOS leaves useless morphs there

Jodynn

give razor 36% inc and anti cal 72% increase

MindOfTheSwarm

Razor Caltrops should do their old damage but also apply a bleed that lasts longer and after the leave area. Anti Cav needs reworking, maybe more upfront damage and apply Breach while also dismounting. Maybe Exploding Caltrops.

Chilly-McFreeze

StarOfElyon wrote: »

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

My archers used to use caltrops for breach and AoEDoT. After the last nerf, we shelved it for Night Mother's Gaze (breach) and volley (AoEDoT). As @GreenHere said above, breach is nice combined with an AoEDot but not if the Dot is lol-worthy.

Will evaluate the new caltrops after it goes live and see if it can earn a slot again.

It's an aoe breach debuff so I think that is the trade-off for damage. The other morph is just sitting there. I also hate the way ZOS leaves useless morphs there

What do you compare it to? On live it's underwhelming. On which builds do you use it in PvE currently?

StarOfElyon

I use it on my Templar tank as a snare so and I haven't found a good alternative (that fit the theme of my character). A lot of snares and things that apply major breach don't do much damage. Elemental drain doesn't do damage at all or snare. Trapping Webs snares and does damage but doesn't apply breach (unless I'm mistaken). I think those skills are balanced and aren't overloaded. So I'd rather have this skill remain as it is and have the other morph get a huge damage buff.

Chilly-McFreeze

And yet there's more to compare like duration, cost, other debuffs, passives of the skill line etc. All those count toward the "spreadsheat balance" or "power budget". That makes comparing Caltrops to Elemental Drain a bit scewed. Maybe I'm leaning a bit out of the window here but I have my doubts that the intended main reason to use caltrops is the snare. Also I don't know if or how many groups use Trapping Webs currently.

Kwoung

IDK if anyone said it, but the only reason anyone uses caltrops in PVP (and most do), is to tag players to get the AP if/when they die. This skill needs a buff.

Rkindaleft

It's still a pretty weak skill in PvP. It wasn't a problem before even when it was a staple in Stam DPS rotations - and back then it was one of the strongest AoEs in the game, although it did not provide Major Fracture back then.

Honestly the skill could see another small buff to it's damage, it's one of the weakest skills judging from the CMX when doing a parse. Alas, I appreciate that Stam is getting some much needed cleave.

ke.sardenb14_ESO

To be honest I still don't see caltrops adding much to PvE dps, as most rotations are strong enough without another DoT. The cleave damage could be nice, but what would improve it would be if it bridge the pen gap between stam and mag(i.e debuff other then breach)

katorga

It is still a dot so garbage damage. The reason to use it is penetration for pve (which someone else is always providing).

PVE, snare maybe, but everything has snares.

MirandaSharp

Stam dps 100% rely on razor caltrops now since they can't get penetration from CP any more. Compared to mag dps, they are still way nerfed even if caltrops get a boost to damage. I'm purely writing from a PvE perspective here. It's a question of stam dps going extinct in higher level content.

MirandaSharp

katorga wrote: »

It is still a dot so garbage damage. The reason to use it is penetration for pve (which someone else is always providing).

-Not for mobs, add waves etc... You have to use caltrops on those or you do no damage. Very few tanks use caltrops unfortunately.

katorga

MirandaSharp wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

It is still a dot so garbage damage. The reason to use it is penetration for pve (which someone else is always providing).

-Not for mobs, add waves etc... You have to use caltrops on those or you do no damage. Very few tanks use caltrops unfortunately.

Only one person needs to cast breach. In most 4 or 12 mans it isn’t me. So i only really use it solo on my sorc with nothing better