BejaProphet wrote: »2. The serious risk of trivializing the passive nodes such that nobody cares about them at all.
ThoughtRaven wrote: »
This right here is a major sticking point for me. I have just over 1800 cp. I had all the passives that I cared about several hundred cp ago, so I couldn't care less if they changed the system so other players could have what they want at a lower cp level. But not by trivializing the passives. Right now they are small bonuses, but they are just barely big enough as to feel worthwhile and provide a sense of satisfaction for unlocking them.
1040 magicka or stamina for example feels like progression when you fully unlock it.
520 is a joke.
ThoughtRaven wrote: »
This right here is a major sticking point for me. I have just over 1800 cp. I had all the passives that I cared about several hundred cp ago, so I couldn't care less if they changed the system so other players could have what they want at a lower cp level. But not by trivializing the passives. Right now they are small bonuses, but they are just barely big enough as to feel worthwhile and provide a sense of satisfaction for unlocking them.
1040 magicka or stamina for example feels like progression when you fully unlock it.
520 is a joke.
BejaProphet wrote: »
The constant stop/go give power and immediately take it away pattern is rediculous fo sure. But you agree the vertical progression has to have an end point, right?
BejaProphet wrote: »
But you are talking about the cap in terms of an actual parse number. The developers only work with that indirectly. The developers give tools and stats.
There is a hard cap for those.. A player can reach the cap of vertical progression and only attain 30k dps due to differences in skill. But that player is still at the top of vertical progression so far as cp gain is concerned.
To speak of it in terms of parse numbers will only create confusion.
ThoughtRaven wrote: »
BejaProphet wrote: »@VaranisArano
I get why you want to talk about top potential damage. But by doing so you are conflating two very distinct things.
1. Vertical progression through actual game systems. The developers control this. They can adjust how much stats a cp node gives, a passive skill etc. they control how much damage a skill does.
2. Vertical progression that comes from me getting better at playing the game. The developers can not control this.
My point: they can only lower the cap through adjusting the first and that will always affect all players, not merely the top tier.
VaranisArano wrote: »
ZOS isn't nerfing CP stars to make Doshia/Mannimarco more challenging. There is no 15-20% nerf that's going to make quest bosses with 350k health challenging for my dungeon-ready DDs who regularly fight bosses with millions of health. There's no 15-20% nerf that's going to make the sort of players who run 1 tank + 3 DDs in normal dungeons stop and bring a healer instead. The content itself just isn't that challenging.
Exactly. This patch is not going to fix ongoing problems. I repeat .. vet and even some random normal pugging as a healer has become not worth my time and certainly not enjoyable. I cannot get a decent pug group at least 90 percent of my attempts.
I suppose its time to retire to housing and trading until those things no longer interest me.
Hoolielulu wrote: »
Even housing is a chore. If I'm not farming for crafting mats I'm scrounging up gold to buy them at insane prices. Then I'm too irritated to enjoy decorating. ZOS is determined to not only make me hate their game but hate myself for playing it.
ThoughtRaven wrote: »TLDR version of the last page or so of this thread:
ZOS keeps punishing players for getting good at their game.
ThoughtRaven wrote: »
I'm of the (unpopular) opinion that CP 2.0 is an improvement over CP 1.0. And like I said, if ZOS wanted to reduce player player power further and were upfront about it I could be more understanding. It was always a foregone conclusion that further balancing changes would be coming down the line. But don't use this half contemptuous half obfuscatory language implying people wanted these specific changes to the system. It is corporate speak that reeks of smarm and disingenuousness.
[snip] They supposedly worked on CP 2.0 for two years before it going live, but a month after release they realize all combat related passives were twice as strong as they should have been?
[edited to remove bashing]
[Quoted post was removed]
Ellimist_Entreri wrote: »
To be honest at this point I am just hoping ZOS has a plan for the next year+ worth of patches that will eventually balance things out and accomplish their stated goals of "Raising the floor" and "We're Taking Some of the Power Out of the High End Experience" while still maintaining a playable and enjoyable user experience.
If so then I am looking forward to the sandbox state at that time; however I can certainly see why many users are outraged during the process with little or no communication received regarding the long term end result when all they can see are repeated setbacks.
would have the gall to make these great changes! People complained that end game content is too easy, so ZOS is trying to fix this, and now people are complaining that they can't pwn the same content as easy lol.
Sanguinor2 wrote: »You seem to be confusing endgame with overland. Cant recall a thread saying that vet dlc trial trifectas are too easy.
BejaProphet wrote: »Everyone likes growing more powerful. Nobody sees vertical progression ending as a virtue in and of itself.
The problem is that ongoing vertical progression destroys games at worst, or ruins content at best. The struggle with games trying to survive long term, is that you have this massive world with only a tiny slice of it mattering.
ESO is trying to overcome that struggle by making sure a dungeon made today still matters five years from now. To do that it has to not be trivialized by five years of power creep.
That means at some point stopping vertical progression, and sadly at some points in time it could require nerfs. Nobody wants these things. But we do want what they produce: a massive game world where we can go anywhere and find meaningful content.
Therefore, though I wish I could keep vertically progressing, my desire for game health means I applaud the shift to horizontal progression.
If they are concerned about power creep in dungeons then all they would have to do is "vertically progress" their content to align with the players. So it can be done, it just requires them to scale existing Veteran Content higher as the game vertically progresses. That's all a Veteran Dungeon essentially is anyway, a normal dungeon that's been scaled upward to accommodate players who have higher CP. So it's not a process unknown to them. So the problem you present here is easily solvable.
I imagine this change has more to do with PvP, in that they don't want the experience gap between players to become so great that it discourages people from participating because they don't want to "grind". But this would be less of a problem if their No CP option in PvP wasn't such a miserable experience. Because if players could be content while doing that until they were able to reach higher levels Champion Points they wouldn't feel like they had to grind none stop. But many, probably most, players (and rightly so in my opinion) detest the current balance in No CP, so they absolutely won't do it.
Either way: ZoS either needs to embrace the CP system or remove it entirely. They have to decide if they want a game that is static at the end or one that "vertically progresses". Because I can tell you right now that people's patience for all these endless cycles of buffs and nerfs to create the illusion of progress only to have it stripped away and put right back where you started are wearing thin. That gimmick is not going to last.
I don't mind about the rest of the passives because (at least in PvE) they are not that impactful, and the whole premise of 2.0 was cutting down poer anyway EXCEPT piercing... stam can't reach pen cap, apparently, according to reps, ZOS is aware and they are still letting it go through, they don't care about stamina specs it seems.
If they are concerned about power creep in dungeons then all they would have to do is "vertically progress" their content to align with the players. So it can be done, it just requires them to scale existing Veteran Content higher as the game vertically progresses. That's all a Veteran Dungeon essentially is anyway, a normal dungeon that's been scaled upward to accommodate players who have higher CP. So it's not a process unknown to them. So the problem you present here is easily solvable.
I imagine this change has more to do with PvP, in that they don't want the experience gap between players to become so great that it discourages people from participating because they don't want to "grind". But this would be less of a problem if their No CP option in PvP wasn't such a miserable experience. Because if players could be content while doing that until they were able to reach higher levels Champion Points they wouldn't feel like they had to grind none stop. But many, probably most, players (and rightly so in my opinion) detest the current balance in No CP, so they absolutely won't do it.
Either way: ZoS either needs to embrace the CP system or remove it entirely. They have to decide if they want a game that is static at the end or one that "vertically progresses". Because I can tell you right now that people's patience for all these endless cycles of buffs and nerfs to create the illusion of progress only to have it stripped away and put right back where you started are wearing thin. That gimmick is not going to last.
etchedpixels wrote: »For me the fundamental problem is the games poor performance and laggy responses even with fast internet. I don't need massive resistances because of game mechanics most of the time I need them because of lag, slow response and bugs. I wonder if that's why the developers can clear everything on vet with no CP - is that on a local dev server or a thousand miles from the real ones over actual internet ?
I also don't buy that vertical progression is a problem in PVE. In PVP yes, but PVP is already a different gme entirely fudged with battle spirit, impen armour and the like so just cap stuff in PVP. In fact given PvP is meant to be player versus player not player versus CP grind time just make all of PVP noCP and be done with it. Saves all the mess in the CP trees for PvP weirdness, saves the fudges, saves messing up PvE - and improves PvP in the process. Just have noCP and noCPnoProc.
Who cares if someone in PvE could achieve 3000 CP and solo sunspire ? Whoopeee, give them a medal for their extraordinary skill instead of trying to keep trying to flatten the end game or add anti-solo and ait-small-group mechanics.
At the end of the day in a flat game a top end player does all the trials 100 times gets apex predator and bored of it, or with uncapped progression they get better and better, pull off some insane solo or small group achievement and go look for something harder or take up fishing.
BejaProphet wrote: »
The dungeon was an illustration. I was not meaning to suggest that dungeons are specifically the driving force behind their changes. Sorry, I thought that was clear.