Is ESO becoming uniform?

Grandchamp1989

As some of you have seen I've been sort of active in the discussions around here with the changes of the latest patches.

And something that really worry me is how people talk about classes, gear and roles.

This will be the thesis of the thread:
classes, gear and roles used to be more fluent and unique

Now people talk about
"Warden heal is overtuned and need to brought in line with DK"
"2handed is overtuned compared to dual wield"
"How can this ability be free"
"This spammable compared to that one"
"DK chain overpeforms campred to Fighter's Guild pull"

..and this sort of mindset I fear will end up with 6 classes that'll just be copy paste of each other, but with different animations attached to them. Every DOT deals the same dmg, every heal is looked at from a spreadsheet and becomes identical. Class uniqueness goes out the window. No longer can classes have signature "moves" where Warden is known for its nice heals, DK for its chaining and CC, Sorc for its streak etc. Everything seems to be brought in line and uniform at a level I have never seen before - and it seems like this is becoming the standard. I understand balance must be achieved, but please understand all these balance changes aren't "free" and everything has a cost to it. This game will never be Call of Duty where everyone picks the same soldier and use the same selection of rifles. Well, it could be.. But GG to any class identity.

In terms of gear "Proc" sets are being brought in line to the standard of:

1. Spell/weapon dmg for maximum dmg proc sets - So you're rewarded with more dmg for already doing high dmg.
2. Max ressources for healing sets to reward healer's who already pump out insane amounts of healing (and thus don't wear the healing sets like Winter's Respite and Hiti's to begin with) because healer's tend to gravitate towards Olorime/SPC, Hollowfang, PA & RO to buff teams sustain and dmg. Effectively making the healer sets useful for... No one.
3. Tanks now only exist to buff 1 and 2

Before you could make a Tank and blow up rooms in Dungeons with Azure or make a healer tank with Winter's Respite and Hiti.. Blood Alter also used to proc things like spell power cure and minor toughness. There was diversity in builds and going off meta was sometimes very much rewarded.

Now it seems Tanks (more than ever) are deligated to be ... a Trial Tank basicly. A buff bot. And that's perfectly fine.. For Trials.
Solo players must conform to the standards of a meta Damage dealer to efficiantly make use of damage proc sets
And Hybrid healer - DD or even worse healer - tank will have a harder time to make use of.. anything that isn't "buff the group".

Is this the direction we, the community, wish to steer the ship towards? Spreadsheets and Standardizations?

I have said my piece.. You may now tell me how wrong I am

Mucho

jircris11

Sadly Ppl would complain even if we only had 1 class and 1 set of gear. Remember if they die to a skill it's OP. Or if Ppl do things they "can't" because they simply want an "I win button" Ppl will complain. Gamers sadly have no clue what they truly want, it might sound good till its added abd suddenly it sucks.

ThoughtRaven

The game has been trending toward homogeneity for years unfortunately.

YandereGirlfriend

There are two ways to balance a game (and a game does require balance in a general sense): you can have perfect parity between objects or you can asymmetrically balance.

Balancing for parity is exactly what it sounds like - every object needs to have its own version of everything roughly equivalent to those of every other object. It is a rather simplistic approach but it is, unfortunately, the way that most players see balance in a game (e.g. "If this class has X then my class must have X!"). It's also unfortunately, the way that the game is currently being balanced, aka by the dreaded 'spreadsheet.'

Asymmetrical balancing is a much more complicated process but it results in (IMO) a much more interesting game to play. In this understanding of balance, every class does not need an X. Rather, a class might have a Y that counters another class' X but that is in turn countered by a third class' Z. It requires a deep knowledge of every aspect of the game in question and in knowing the relative strengths and weaknesses of every object and mechanic. Under this system, individual objects are allowed to be "OP" but this is accepted because it is the interaction of "OP" objects that achieves overall game balance. This is the type of balance that I wish we had (and, I am told, is more like the original Combat Lead's vision).

Rudrani

If I were the game designer I would make each class OP and Meta for ONE SPECIFIC strategy. This is SOMEWHAT the way it is in the game now (nb op for single target. necro/templar op for Aoe)

Also I would make a bigger deal out of using the right elemental or physical damage for a particular enemy. It seems ridiculous that fire, for example, does the same damage to lokestiitz (an ice dragon) as it does to yolnakriin (a fire dragon). If there was a bigger difference here, builds would need to be more diverse.

Nyteshade

ThoughtRaven wrote: »

The game has been trending toward homogeneity for years unfortunately.

Agreed. In Beta and year one, the classes truly felt different. Since then it's close to the same thing with different skins and flashy things.

DreadDaedroth

Standardization sucks!
It's a couple of years they are trying to do it.

Darkstorne

A little bit, yes. And not just with class identification but with the predictability of Chapters and DLC too. We know a new Chapter will have:

6 Delves
6 World Bosses
2 Public Dungeons
Brand new not-dolmens
1 Trial

And it's like every Chapter is built around that framework, so we're doing the exact same things with a fresh coat of paint.

I would love for them to just throw that rulebook out at some point and create something that feels really unique and refreshing. Like, make a Falinesti Chapter, trapped in a pocket realm of Oblivion, that allows us to use levitation magic to explore a colossal tree with loads of vertical level design. Maybe let us learn slow fall spells to take back to Tamriel too (since levitation will never work there for obvious reasons): while falling, press and hold your jump key/button to slow fall. I just want a Chapter that makes me think "Wow! I was NOT expecting that! That looks really fun and refreshing!"

scorpius2k1

That moment when "OP" actually translates mostly into complaints from "L2P" issues and well, here we are, closer than ever to a catered homogenized gaming experience!

Mahabahabtha

Sadly, yes

scorpius2k1

Darkstorne wrote: »

A little bit, yes. And not just with class identification but with the predictability of Chapters and DLC too. We know a new Chapter will have:

6 Delves
6 World Bosses
2 Public Dungeons
Brand new not-dolmens
1 Trial

And it's like every Chapter is built around that framework, so we're doing the exact same things with a fresh coat of paint.

I would love for them to just throw that rulebook out at some point and create something that feels really unique and refreshing. Like, make a Falinesti Chapter, trapped in a pocket realm of Oblivion, that allows us to use levitation magic to explore a colossal tree with loads of vertical level design. Maybe let us learn slow fall spells to take back to Tamriel too (since levitation will never work there for obvious reasons): while falling, press and hold your jump key/button to slow fall. I just want a Chapter that makes me think "Wow! I was NOT expecting that! That looks really fun and refreshing!"

Interesting point! I hadn't really thought about it like that until I read your post, and you are correct. The year of the <insert chapter theme here> is great, but basically a very predictable template with a fresh coat of paint as you put it. If ZOS could extend what they already do with new features like classes, companions, etc...and go with that same fresh ideology for the rest of the chapter/dlc, that would really put ESO to a whole new level.

Goregrinder

Nightblades have been feeling it the past 4 years.

Tandor

ThoughtRaven wrote: »

The game has been trending toward homogeneity for years unfortunately.

Inevitable in any game with a competitive element, unfortunately.

hakan

that has been the case for years not because people complained.

jircris11 wrote: »

Sadly Ppl would complain even if we only had 1 class and 1 set of gear. Remember if they die to a skill it's OP. Or if Ppl do things they "can't" because they simply want an "I win button" Ppl will complain. Gamers sadly have no clue what they truly want, it might sound good till its added abd suddenly it sucks.

No, people would complain about how boring it is, not for how OP it is.

imo you dont have to achieve perfect balance but something close to it is very much achievable. every class or skill should have some use here and there, i dont like they leave skills, classes etc useless for years.

they dont need to kneejerk nerf either nor "nerf and never look back". dots got destroyed because they buffed them no reason and now they are pretty much useless. why?

Aertew

Dragonknight,warden and necro already all have a re-skin ability. The one with ice/stone/bones coming out of the players back and gives some defensive stats.

Also alot of classes feel similar because they really arent that different aside from 1 or 2 abilities. Excluding ults. I think the should replace the ice armor and bone armor for warden and necro and give them something different. These are DLC classes btw. You pay $15 for each class or $40 for each expansion for them and you get a re-skinned ability.

Though I feel bad for the devs for all the hate they get from classes and more so I will say

Compared to other MMO's like BDO, FFXIV or WoW I have the MOST fun questing and exploring. The world is so detailed it's actuly mindblowing



The game feels great in first person and I forgot how good it can feel to just walk while questing and not constantly rushing. The zones are really well made.


But again, back to classes. They need to hire some sort of veteran class designer. Alot of people quit the WoW team so I think they could hire someone or at the very least get suggestions from them. While I dont like WoW's questing it's classes feel very unique

dominguero96

The main problem is that people remember the original 4 classes which were very different from each other. For example for healing: Templar was the best healer and the only one for healing others, Dk could only heal itself with the wip mechanism, sorc had its shields and nb was more of the avoid damage.

Now every class, not only the new ones, are the same with a re-skin.

-Every class has a ressistant buff. As someone mention dk, warden and necro only varies in the visual effect.

- For magicka, every class (except nb) has a panic buttom heal such as breath of life, sorc pets, coagulating blood, warden and necros re-skins...

- For damage, pvp and pve are a little bit different. In pvp whether magicka or stamina, every class syncronize your burst with a class or weapon spameable, a precasting damage skill (blastbones, blacklash morphs, spectral bow, curse...) and some dots / class execute for magicka and weapon execute for staminas.

In pve you just combine that spameable with the actual most broken dots.


In case you read until here, you may realize that there is no variation. ZOS, as any other mmmorpg company, will never achieve "balance" as the players want. So, they did the smart move, if everything is similar then it is balanced.

Primidone

No offence but the more accurate word is “homogeneous”. When you say “uniform” I thought they’re releasing some kind of school uniform lol

GarnetFire17

I don't know the answer to this because if you don't balance things out you have way too many people playing 1 class 1 race, 1 gear set up. I would rather have a lot of options that are nearly as good as the meta set up. Which is the direction the game is going.