Built-in critical resistance - should we have it?

divnyi

If you remove all the gear, you will observe having 1320 critical resistance. It means in any PvP scenario, crit gonna damage way lower than if would in PvE.

Is there any particular reason for this, aside from cloak -> incap? I mean it basically cuts out all crit builds (except for acuity gankblades) out of no-CP PvP, because it is really, really hard to get better number than on malacath using crits. Crits themselves requires you a lot of contribution, and you would get proportionally more damage if you invest in stats/penetration.

I think this is not healthy. What do you think?

FriedEggSandwich

No

Full disclosure; my reasons are selfish and I haven't thought it through beyond this. But crit resistance nerfs crit, plus zos nerfed crit. Nerfed crit makes malacath stronger. Malacath is now the target of nerf requests. I like malacath. Buff crit!

VaranisArano

ZOS recently added this base critical resistance. The big reason is that it makes it easier for PVE-only players to transition to PVP.

Critical resistance just isn't needed in PVE zones, so PVE players rarely think about it. This alleviates some of the necessity to swap to impenetrable gear when PVE players go to PVP zones for Midyear Mayhem and other events. When all the PVP players wore impen, it used to be I could always tell who was a PVE player because they blew up like a popped balloon when my PVP character looked at them funny.

So it makes the steep learning curve that is PVP in ESO a little easier for PVE players, and I'm all in favor of that.

divnyi

No

VaranisArano wrote: »

ZOS recently added this base critical resistance. The big reason is that it makes it easier for PVE-only players to transition to PVP.

Guess what else PvE players run? They run crits.

I do agree with impen nerf. I don't agree with giving tonns of crit resistance for free.

I mean hell, I did try to build a templar ADC stacked with damage glyphs and crit and critdamage. I'm fine with having almost no sustain, I'm fine with being so squishy I die from random skelebombs and aoes. I'm not okay with a feeling that I do less damage than my 35k necro with malacath and procs.

I mean yeah, I'm selfish here, but it's not just about me. I'll adapt, I have 8 chars and I experiment a whole lot, I wasted tonns of resources doing weird stuff and I don't mind really. It's not about what I lost, it's about whole stat being practically irrelevant. It has serious balance implications in terms of game roles, and it is one of the components of why bruisers are the meta.

VaranisArano

divnyi wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

ZOS recently added this base critical resistance. The big reason is that it makes it easier for PVE-only players to transition to PVP.

Guess what else PvE players run? They run crits.

I do agree with impen nerf. I don't agree with giving tonns of crit resistance for free.

I mean hell, I did try to build a templar ADC stacked with damage glyphs and crit and critdamage. I'm fine with having almost no sustain, I'm fine with being so squishy I die from random skelebombs and aoes. I'm not okay with a feeling that I do less damage than my 35k necro with malacath and procs.

I mean yeah, I'm selfish here, but it's not just about me. I'll adapt, I have 8 chars and I experiment a whole lot, I wasted tonns of resources doing weird stuff and I don't mind really. It's not about what I lost, it's about whole stat being practically irrelevant. It has serious balance implications in terms of game roles, and it is one of the components of why bruisers are the meta.

Sure, PVEers run crit. And it's a pretty common complaint that they get to PVP and can't kill anyone...except that complaint long predates ZOS adding base crit resistance to everyone. Most PVE players struggle to kill PVPers at first because they haven't learned how to recognize when a PVPer is on the defense vs vulnerable, much less considered how to time their damage bursts with a window of real vulnerability.

Just saying, I don't think the additional base crit resistance is the major factor that's preventing PVE players from securing kills in PVP with their crit-based PVE builds. On the other hand, the base crit resistance does make them noticeably more survivable against PVP crits than they used to be.

I'm also not convinced that crit builds were ever previously that effective outside of certain glass cannon builds that previously had to be intentional about their targets. After all, most PVPers wore a certain amount of base impen. So to me, this complaint seems more that previously easy targets like PVEers who came to Cyrodiil for events suddenly have more resistance to being blown up than they used to.

Likewise, we've been complaining about bruisers being the meta for a long time. As far as I'm concerned, the pros out weigh the cons...but then, I'm not trying to play a crit-based build like you are, so my opinion is going to be different.

divnyi

No

VaranisArano wrote: »

Just saying, I don't think the additional base crit resistance is the major factor that's preventing PVE players from securing kills in PVP with their crit-based PVE builds.

Yeah, because +5% physical vulnerability on light armor is a major factor of stamina vs magica fights, but -20% crit damage (translates into -10% at least) is not a major factor

VaranisArano wrote: »

So to me, this complaint seems more that previously easy targets like PVEers who came to Cyrodiil for events suddenly have more resistance to being blown up than they used to.

I don't play Cyro, so you missed. And I still do insane KDA in newbie BG on even on this build, this is not relevant to the discussion.

VaranisArano wrote: »

Most PVE players struggle to kill PVPers at first because they haven't learned how to recognize when a PVPer is on the defense vs vulnerable, much less considered how to time their damage bursts with a window of real vulnerability.

Yeah, because they are vulnerable.. never. They roll 35k, 25k+ armor, and their HP% heals take them back when you do top tier DPS to them, even without cross-heals.

VaranisArano wrote: »

I'm also not convinced that crit builds were ever previously that effective outside of certain glass cannon builds that previously had to be intentional about their targets. After all, most PVPers wore a certain amount of base impen.

Yeah, so we gave everyone built-in impen, so now they can also have traits in block and roll dodge while being resistant to crits by default.

Bruisers weren't the pinnacle of meta until the proc meta. You went high on armor -> you went down on damage. It worked, but it wasn't top-tier duelist build.

MurderMostFoul

Yes

Impenetrable trait was strong because crit was very strong in PvP. Base critical resistance nerfed crit in PVP. Thus, impenetrable could be nerfed and was no longer essential. This allows for more trait diversity in PvP.

People complain about ZOS not balancing PVP and PVE separately. Base critical resistance should at least be a bright spot for them.

divnyi

No

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

Impenetrable trait was strong because crit was very strong in PvP.

Wrong assumption -> wrong conclusions.

Impen was strong because it gave way too much crit resistance per piece, raising crit resistance to 27% from 0%. As any build in light/med could have 35% crit without investing anything (bow even higher), having 0.35*1.23+0.65=1.08 damage average vs 0.35*1.5+0.65=1.175 damage average meant 8% difference in survivability, worst case scenario, and double that in good scenario.

All in all, it means the trait itself was way too strong comparatively, even in scenarios when opponent doesn't build crit.

propertyOfUndefined

No

I think crit resist makes the game more difficult to balance. Malacath become BiS for most builds (even non-proc ones) because crit damage is so lackluster with everybody getting a healthy amount of this pvp-only stat for free.

DrSlaughtr

No

If you want a bunch of crit resist then you should have to give something to in return, like divines on your armor.

Fawn4287

Yes

Sounds like a nightblade running in to someone with some crit resist they can’t 2 hit wombo combo. The base crit is to counter the heavy impen nerfs. But in all seriousness crit is currently very, very strong, stamblade is having a field day during prime time PvP and I’m not one to complain about jabs since surprise attacks can hit the same damage as an instant cast for a channeled ability and I usually have shuffle but getting hit without major evasion by khajit jabs hurts bad. Currently khakit with shadow mundas seems to be meta for most burst builds in cyro atm. I am also usually the biggest and most stern opponent of the game hand holding people in PvP, especially thumbless zerglings but the people that strut in to Cyro for monthly rewards and BGs for the daily reward in their divines PvE gear are actually too easy to kill without some free crit resist hand holding.

divnyi

No

Is crit really that big of an issue in cyro? Last time I checked, worst offender was oops-all-magicka sorc with 20k shields, which hits no less harder than crit build. And plenty of strong stam players are 27-32k HP range - i'm not sure if they roll much crit or not, but I have a doubt, given how they waste item slots for toughness.

NBs are not an issue in BGs at least. I guess you can find easier opponents to kill in cyro as NB, which makes it troublesome.

katorga

No, and take away the 1K free weapon/spell damage, 5 health, and free stats too.

And take away sets too, oh wait....

relentless_turnip

Yes

I liked this change as it made all traits viable rather than having to wear 7 impen. With the changes to impen at this point you'd essentially have to wear impreg or you'd be constantly one shot. You can very easily make a good crit build in the current patch. I have 3 crit builds: stamplar, stamblade and stamcro. Crit did get a bug buff with changes to cp. I don't really think it could be up for discussion without more easy access to crit resist or a ton of changes reverted. I think it's in a good place balance wise. Damage is so high in this patch as it is.

Beardimus

No

divnyi wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Just saying, I don't think the additional base crit resistance is the major factor that's preventing PVE players from securing kills in PVP with their crit-based PVE builds.

Yeah, because +5% physical vulnerability on light armor is a major factor of stamina vs magica fights, but -20% crit damage (translates into -10% at least) is not a major factor

VaranisArano wrote: »

So to me, this complaint seems more that previously easy targets like PVEers who came to Cyrodiil for events suddenly have more resistance to being blown up than they used to.

I don't play Cyro, so you missed. And I still do insane KDA in newbie BG on even on this build, this is not relevant to the discussion.

VaranisArano wrote: »

Most PVE players struggle to kill PVPers at first because they haven't learned how to recognize when a PVPer is on the defense vs vulnerable, much less considered how to time their damage bursts with a window of real vulnerability.

Yeah, because they are vulnerable.. never. They roll 35k, 25k+ armor, and their HP% heals take them back when you do top tier DPS to them, even without cross-heals.

VaranisArano wrote: »

I'm also not convinced that crit builds were ever previously that effective outside of certain glass cannon builds that previously had to be intentional about their targets. After all, most PVPers wore a certain amount of base impen.

Yeah, so we gave everyone built-in impen, so now they can also have traits in block and roll dodge while being resistant to crits by default.

Bruisers weren't the pinnacle of meta until the proc meta. You went high on armor -> you went down on damage. It worked, but it wasn't top-tier duelist build.

But they aren't resistant to crits totally
Crit damage is just lessened, and builds stacking i to it can still add plenty (shadow / nightblade etc)

Edit : I also read your poll wrong, I'm fine with having base crit resist as it means finally some trait choice in PvP. So I'm a yes.