So now that literally everyone can access abilities that used to be exclusive to DK or NB...

Sangwyne

...Can we finally talk about buffing Dragonknight and Nightblade? I mean, neither was doing particularly well even before these changes, and now the best parts of their kits have been repackaged and sold at a discount to other classes. What's the point in spending 4K mana for Obsidian Shield when an NPC is just going to overwrite it off cooldown for free? Why even play as a DK with horrible sustain, healing and damage when you could just play as a better class and still get all the utility from Cauterize, Shield, Molten Weapons, Talons and Chains? I don't play Nightblade as much, but this change hurts them too. Companion skills should have been limited to non-class skills and a select few new ones, not copy-and-pasted from class-exclusive buffs and abilities. Why bother queueing as either class when you know you're now infinitely more replaceable than the other 4 classes?

Xuhora

lol, templars didnt even have abilities worth implementing on the companions

Sangwyne

Xuhora wrote: »

lol, templars didnt even have abilities worth implementing on the companions

Don't worry, I'm sure that soon enough ZOS will slap all two viable Templar skills on a new Companion and you can join us DKs and NBs as we hang out in the basement collecting dust.

RPGplayer13579

Maybe as more companions are released skills from the other classes will appear.

wDzZ

Do you really think people will take their companions in hard vet content over a player who knows and understands mechanics on top of having an actual rotation?

The companions aren't players.

bmnoble

Well they can't be used in PVP and they are not going to be good enough to make up for a player in Vet PVE content.

Aside from things being easier if the player wants that in solo content and groups experimenting with using them in normal dungeon groups, I don't see it having any meaningful impact on harder PVE content since you still need to do that yourself and rely on your group members.

My point is your not going to be able to factor in companions to your builds since you won't be using them for most harder group content where a proper build is of actual help.

Might be a handful of people who use them to help them in their quest to solo vet dungeons and I wish those people all the best its not something I will be bothering with.


The way I see it I will use them, when soloing dolmens/geysers/harrowstorms/world bosses/some of the harder public dungeon group challenges/Craglorn group delves and daily's/join in Dragon fights etc..(that said other than the Dragon's harrowstorms and Craglorn stuff I can already solo most of the other stuff with out issue, with companions it will be easier)

The rest of overland I can easily kill most stuff fairly quick so I doubt the companion would react in time to be of much help.

Got no desire to solo group dungeons.

Jayroo

Sangwyne wrote: »

Xuhora wrote: »

lol, templars didnt even have abilities worth implementing on the companions

Don't worry, I'm sure that soon enough ZOS will slap all two viable Templar skills on a new Companion and you can join us DKs and NBs as we hang out in the basement collecting dust.

I don't see the correlation between companions being a DK/NB and the respective classes going into "extinction"... They confirmed don't do a lot of dps(9-10k) and definitely wont be good enough to be chosen over actual people in most pve situations

Tommy_The_Gun

Tbh, on my NB I have 2 bars of skills. So 10 skills and 2 ultimates in total. You may wonder, how many NB skills I am using ?

The answer is: One.

Out of 12 abilities, only one is a class ability...

Fear ? I Have fighter's guild skill for that. It superior to NB class fear skill.

Execute ? Well Executioner is again superior to NB's Execute (Kinda weird that an "assasin" class has mediocre execute skill, right ?).

Incap ? Pff... come one, delayed & every one dodges that... again Guild skill (Dawnbreaker) is superior...

Gap closer ? Again, too clunky to use. Critical Rush easily beats it.

CC immunity skill ? Again, guild skill (Race Against Time).

Cloak ? Well, I would use it if it was not bugged and had some level of reliability (like it used to work in the past). Vamp passive is better, because at least it is not getting interupted by literally everything...

^ tbh. I could compare NB abilities to other weapon / guild / world skills and literally NB are either on same level or worse. Aren't class skills supposed to be better ? ?

I have not yet seen all abilities that companions can use, but I would imagine it is not hard for any ability to be better than NB or DK ability...

BejaProphet

Wait, the thesis of this thread is what exactly? I mean be specific...

I walk up and say “hey, I’m a DK tank can I join the group?”

They respond, “no thanks, we dont let DKs play anymore. My companion will tank since he has a chain and claws? Come back with a character without those things then we’ll talk.”

No, I’m not worried about that.

Masel

Sangwyne wrote: »

...Can we finally talk about buffing Dragonknight and Nightblade? I mean, neither was doing particularly well even before these changes, and now the best parts of their kits have been repackaged and sold at a discount to other classes. What's the point in spending 4K mana for Obsidian Shield when an NPC is just going to overwrite it off cooldown for free? Why even play as a DK with horrible sustain, healing and damage when you could just play as a better class and still get all the utility from Cauterize, Shield, Molten Weapons, Talons and Chains? I don't play Nightblade as much, but this change hurts them too. Companion skills should have been limited to non-class skills and a select few new ones, not copy-and-pasted from class-exclusive buffs and abilities. Why bother queueing as either class when you know you're now infinitely more replaceable than the other 4 classes?

Companions have abilities that are similar to class skills, but they're not the same, i.e. their buffs are unique and don't replace Player buffs. Idk how this hurts the game in any way?

Faded

Nightblade main here. Giving NB-like skills to companions has no effect on my gameplay, or whether I'd recommend the class to a new player (a highly conditional yes).

Everything in the world breaking cloak and bad coding that lumps it in with sneaking, pulling the life essence from my opponent being classed as a "projectile", an outdated and buggy mini-game on my best damage skill, one useless class ultimate and two with cast times on them: I have a pretty long list of NB-specific grievances that matter more than whether every stamina spec in the game has access to a better version of hysteria. Do not care.

Sangwyne

wDzZ wrote: »

Do you really think people will take their companions in hard vet content over a player who knows and understands mechanics on top of having an actual rotation?

The companions aren't players.

Alright, what about the other 95% of the game? Good luck to any new or aspiring DK/NB players now. Just roll a different class.

Jayroo wrote: »

I don't see the correlation between companions being a DK/NB and the respective classes going into "extinction"... They confirmed don't do a lot of dps(9-10k) and definitely wont be good enough to be chosen over actual people in most pve situations

That's precisely the point; Companions won't be taken for damage but utility, meaning DKs and NBs in support roles are being rendered obsolete, especially when DK already had bottom-tier DPS due to much of its power budget being placed into buffs and utility that are now commonplace. This change just screws over support roles even further. ZOS should have come up with cool new abilities for Companions rather than just copy-and-pasting support abilities unique to DK and NB.

Masel wrote: »

Companions have abilities that are similar to class skills, but they're not the same, i.e. their buffs are unique and don't replace Player buffs. Idk how this hurts the game in any way?

I don't know about that.
https://eso-u.com/articles/blackwood_prepts_preview__all_of_the_juicy_details
Ctrl+F "Cauterize", "Obsidian Shield", "Molten Weapon", "Fiery Grip", "Dark Talons". These are the exact same names as the DK abilities; I have no doubt that the NPC "Obsidian Shield" skill will almost certainly replace DK's "Obsidian Shield" and overwrite it for no cost, when part of the reason DK has horrible sustain, among other issues, was to nerf their ability to sustain Obsidian Shield in the first place. Basically, our class was gutted and balanced around a few abilities that are now being repackaged for every other class to use, with zero compensation.

Urzigurumash

Well, on the flip side, maybe DK could now be balanced such that no content, for anybody in any setting, is remotely tolerable without a DK tank in the group, since there's no excuse not to have one

nesakinter

No one is going to any companion in end game PvE and companions are unusable in PvP. So none of it really matters. Who cares about support in overland activities where everything dies immediately?

NordSwordnBoard

BejaProphet

You still have yet to explain your reasoning.

1. A companion has access to some DK skills
2. Nobody will role DKs now.


How do you get from 1 to 2? What are picturing? Why would this make anybody at all hesitant to play a DK?

In group scenarios a player is always going to be superior to a companion.

In solo scenarios, it’s no worse. You choose your companions skills. If I want to play a DK with those tanky abilities, I slot something on my companion that COMPLIMENTS what I play not one that COMPETES with it.

Where is the problem?

Everest_Lionheart

My MagDK is solely there to be a buff machine these days, the secret is I hit just as hard in the buff gear as I do BiS mag gear because I have build specifically for that play style. Also willing to be flexible and chain things for my tanks when they need help or Throw down talons when they ask or igneous weapons/shield to free up a skill slot when they need a little extra something for a particular fight. I love being a MagDK specialist and using all of the tools available to boost my teams.

By that same token I just learned Magblade. Still getting used to it, but one thing is for sure when my teams get to execute phase I am the hero. From a PvE perspective NB has the best class execute in the game hands down. I know stam players love that executioner mainly because you can stay spamming it early, but that NB execute is just beautiful to watch especially when I can do it from far away and still see 6 figure numbers pop up. Brings a tear to my eye every time!

Chaos2088

In the video the class skills have no morphs and are watered down versions of the ones players have access to. [snip]

[Edited to remove Baiting]

Jayroo

Sangwyne wrote: »

wDzZ wrote: »

Do you really think people will take their companions in hard vet content over a player who knows and understands mechanics on top of having an actual rotation?

The companions aren't players.

Alright, what about the other 95% of the game? Good luck to any new or aspiring DK/NB players now. Just roll a different class.

Jayroo wrote: »

I don't see the correlation between companions being a DK/NB and the respective classes going into "extinction"... They confirmed don't do a lot of dps(9-10k) and definitely wont be good enough to be chosen over actual people in most pve situations

That's precisely the point; Companions won't be taken for damage but utility, meaning DKs and NBs in support roles are being rendered obsolete, especially when DK already had bottom-tier DPS due to much of its power budget being placed into buffs and utility that are now commonplace. This change just screws over support roles even further. ZOS should have come up with cool new abilities for Companions rather than just copy-and-pasting support abilities unique to DK and NB.

Masel wrote: »

Companions have abilities that are similar to class skills, but they're not the same, i.e. their buffs are unique and don't replace Player buffs. Idk how this hurts the game in any way?

I don't know about that.
https://eso-u.com/articles/blackwood_prepts_preview__all_of_the_juicy_details
Ctrl+F "Cauterize", "Obsidian Shield", "Molten Weapon", "Fiery Grip", "Dark Talons". These are the exact same names as the DK abilities; I have no doubt that the NPC "Obsidian Shield" skill will almost certainly replace DK's "Obsidian Shield" and overwrite it for no cost, when part of the reason DK has horrible sustain, among other issues, was to nerf their ability to sustain Obsidian Shield in the first place. Basically, our class was gutted and balanced around a few abilities that are now being repackaged for every other class to use, with zero compensation.

They have explicitly expressed the fact they are not a replacement for actual people and will take a slot in dungeons/trials and most likely wont be able to queue. You also definitely don't need companions to do any overland, and if you do it's still not a reason to not play the class yourself... Your point is still lost on me

Dark_Lord_Kuro

Sangwyne wrote: »

...Can we finally talk about buffing Dragonknight and Nightblade? I mean, neither was doing particularly well even before these changes, and now the best parts of their kits have been repackaged and sold at a discount to other classes. What's the point in spending 4K mana for Obsidian Shield when an NPC is just going to overwrite it off cooldown for free? Why even play as a DK with horrible sustain, healing and damage when you could just play as a better class and still get all the utility from Cauterize, Shield, Molten Weapons, Talons and Chains? I don't play Nightblade as much, but this change hurts them too. Companion skills should have been limited to non-class skills and a select few new ones, not copy-and-pasted from class-exclusive buffs and abilities. Why bother queueing as either class when you know you're now infinitely more replaceable than the other 4 classes?

Future companion if any will most likely be of other class so it will balance out

Sangwyne

BejaProphet wrote: »

You still have yet to explain your reasoning.
...
Where is the problem?

Read the post. The issue is that DK was gutted because of a few skills, those skills were then also gutted, those skills are now available to literally anyone, and neither DK nor their skills were reverted. As an example: Obsidian Shield ally shield nerfed->Obsidian Shield self shield nerfed->Obsidian Shield Major Mending duration nerfed->Major Mending itself nerfed->Obsidian Shield given for free to anyone->DK still in dumpster. DK players now have to invest in stacking a ton of Health and Magicka recovery to use Obsidian Shield effectively and an NPC will be able to overwrite it off-cooldown for free. This is on top of the average DPS player's health being buffed and % mitigation being nerfed, leading to a DK needing to stack 45k HP and spend over 4k mana just to put a sad 3600 HP shield on a 25k HP player. And the shield blocks less damage now too.

Igneous Shield (Obsidian Shield morph): Decreased the duration of the Major Mending buff granted by this morph to 2.5 seconds from 6 seconds.

Obsidian Shield:
Reduced the strength of the damage shield you apply to allies to 10% of your max health, down from 15%.
Increased the strength of the damage shield you apply to yourself by 200%. The total shield value on yourself should remain unchanged after these changes.

Obsidian Shield: Reduced the health scale of this ability and its morphs to 8% from 10%, and reduced the shield bonus for the caster of Igneous Shield from 200% bonus to 150% bonus.

Major Mending: Decreased to 16%, down from 25%.

BejaProphet

Everybody has abilities that have been majorly nerfed. I do remember those nerfs; I lived through them as a DK tank.

With everything you have said, if I started over on a new server today, I would still choose a DK.

The question is why would the things you have just listed stop somebody from playing a DK?

It seems like you feel the answer to that question is obvious. And because of this, you aren’t spelling it out for us. Because you expected your readers to just “see it” like you do. But it is not obvious.

How do you get from...

1. DKs have a heavily nerfed ability which is now in the hands of a companion

To...

2. Nobody will want to play a DK.

spartaxoxo

If anything I see it a potential buff to solo DK, and it makes me more interested in the class as it's already one of the best soloists. I can maybe let my companion use the buff and then use different skill to take advantage.

Vanya

I believe every class is in need of nerf, not an additional boost. Look at the facts. Potency of classes in general and ways to steam roll content was never easier. I do not think a lot of players are aware how extremely powerful their characters in comparison to start or just MMO standards in whole. Asking for boost these days is not right approach, There are more pressing matters than beefing up classes.

BejaProphet

Or let me put my question another way.
You are not saying,

The companions get heals
Why would anybody play a healer now?

We aren’t going to say that, because if I have the slightest idea of what I’m doing, I’m going to be better at my job than a companion at healing.

So also with a DK. Your companion is not going to out tank me. ( I say tank because it appears to be tank skills that concern you most). If we are running group content, there are four slots. A companion is not going to be more desirable than a player. He’s not a threat.

Just like a companion with heals isn’t a threat to a real healer.

Sangwyne

BejaProphet wrote: »

Wait, the thesis of this thread is what exactly? I mean be specific...

The thesis is that DK/NB abilities were nerfed, supposedly due to balance concerns. And now their best class abilities were repackaged and sold to other classes, but DK/NB were left gutted. How is that balanced?

BejaProphet wrote: »

You still have yet to explain your reasoning.

1. A companion has access to some DK skills
2. Nobody will role DKs now.

BejaProphet wrote: »

How do you get from...
2. DKs have a heavily nerfed ability which is now in the hands of a companion
To...
3. Nobody will want to play a DK.

BejaProphet wrote: »

Or let me put my question another way.
You are not saying,

The companions get heals
Why would anybody play a healer now?

Please don't put words in my mouth. I said that support roles for these classes "are more replaceable now". Why? Well gee, I wonder in which roles the support NPCs, with sub-10k DPS and support/utility skills that override player skills, will be placed. Maybe they'll be used to fill in for support. So instead of actually addressing the situation that led to fake tanks/healers being an issue in the first place, where ZOS has nerfed support roles patch after patch and hamstrung DK, for instance, so that it's forced to take Balance and stack massive amounts of health just to use Obsidian Shield effectively, they simply wave their hands and create an NPC who can just spam the skill without investment and overwrite the buff applied by an actual DK in the party. I am not saying support roles are now obsolete; I am saying that ZOS has a worrying trend of pushing players away from playing support and towards DPS roles, with Ring of the Pale Order making healers less relevant for certain content, and now Companions.

Luke_Flamesword

But actual player always will be more preferable choice than companion, unless we talking about dude who just light attacks everything with bow. I can bet that in 95% situations of group playing, noone will use companions or it will be used only for a while, when waiting for replacement.

Real dk (in any role) always will be better than just companion with dk skill...

SirAndy

I predict no change in the overall DK/NB population after the companions hit the live servers.

If anything, this might encourage people to dust off their parked DK/NB alt chars and have a companion that complements their character skill sets.

zaria

BejaProphet wrote: »

Or let me put my question another way.
You are not saying,

The companions get heals
Why would anybody play a healer now?

We aren’t going to say that, because if I have the slightest idea of what I’m doing, I’m going to be better at my job than a companion at healing.

So also with a DK. Your companion is not going to out tank me. ( I say tank because it appears to be tank skills that concern you most). If we are running group content, there are four slots. A companion is not going to be more desirable than a player. He’s not a threat.

Just like a companion with heals isn’t a threat to a real healer.

This, now having an pocket tank would be nice then soloing an tricky world boss.
That will happens if you have multiple companion tanks on an boss? Know this can be an issue during event and new zones.

Masel

Sangwyne wrote: »

wDzZ wrote: »

Do you really think people will take their companions in hard vet content over a player who knows and understands mechanics on top of having an actual rotation?

The companions aren't players.

Alright, what about the other 95% of the game? Good luck to any new or aspiring DK/NB players now. Just roll a different class.

Jayroo wrote: »

I don't see the correlation between companions being a DK/NB and the respective classes going into "extinction"... They confirmed don't do a lot of dps(9-10k) and definitely wont be good enough to be chosen over actual people in most pve situations

That's precisely the point; Companions won't be taken for damage but utility, meaning DKs and NBs in support roles are being rendered obsolete, especially when DK already had bottom-tier DPS due to much of its power budget being placed into buffs and utility that are now commonplace. This change just screws over support roles even further. ZOS should have come up with cool new abilities for Companions rather than just copy-and-pasting support abilities unique to DK and NB.

Masel wrote: »

Companions have abilities that are similar to class skills, but they're not the same, i.e. their buffs are unique and don't replace Player buffs. Idk how this hurts the game in any way?

I don't know about that.
https://eso-u.com/articles/blackwood_prepts_preview__all_of_the_juicy_details
Ctrl+F "Cauterize", "Obsidian Shield", "Molten Weapon", "Fiery Grip", "Dark Talons". These are the exact same names as the DK abilities; I have no doubt that the NPC "Obsidian Shield" skill will almost certainly replace DK's "Obsidian Shield" and overwrite it for no cost, when part of the reason DK has horrible sustain, among other issues, was to nerf their ability to sustain Obsidian Shield in the first place. Basically, our class was gutted and balanced around a few abilities that are now being repackaged for every other class to use, with zero compensation.

I do, i've seen it first hand on the preview server.

Sangwyne

Masel wrote: »

I do, i've seen it first hand on the preview server.

Really? So the NPC's Obsidian Shield stacks with the player's Obsidian Shield? It doesn't overwrite it as with player-sourced uses of the ability? That's a bit of a relief, honestly. Do you know if the same applies to the synergy from Dark Talons? Does the NPC even provide a synergy? If so, can it be used alongside the synergy from DK Dark Talons without the 20-second lockout timer? How does Molten Weapon interact with the player-sourced version? And do you mind sharing your thoughts on DK and NB, please? Do you feel as though they are in a good spot now compared to the other classes? Any information you are able to share would be most appreciated.