Solution to Undermining of MMR Matchmaker and Solo Queue

CooloutAC

[snip] I mean specifically treating every game mode likes its a dm which sandbags their mmr and also by sync dropping with their guilds in solo bg queues. This makes both the mmr and the solo queue totally pointless and that's why its a horrible experience for the avg player.

There is a couple solutions to this. You can heavily penalize and then perma ban habitual quitters like LoL and other games do. And you can also factor in K/D and Damage Done into the skill rating. Give us a win/loss stat and factor that in, or at least show it on the leaderboard.

If all else fails just give us the option to select game modes back. [snip] Let them play in deathmatch. and the more competitive non meta players can go back to picking relic and flag objective avoiding most of them. Only the daily should be random if anything.

[Edited to remove Bashing]

Firstmep

CooloutAC wrote: »

[snip] I mean specifically treating every game mode likes its a dm which sandbags their mmr and also by sync dropping with their guilds in solo bg queues. This makes both the mmr and the solo queue totally pointless and that's why its a horrible experience for the avg player.

There is a couple solutions to this. You can heavily penalize and then perma ban habitual quitters like LoL and other games do. And you can also factor in K/D and Damage Done into the skill rating. Give us a win/loss stat and factor that in, or at least show it on the leaderboard.

If all else fails just give us the option to select game modes back. [snip] Let them play in deathmatch. and the more competitive non meta players can go back to picking relic and flag objective avoiding most of them. Only the daily should be random if anything.

Perma banning for quiting games would work, if we didn't experience crashes and disconnects on a regular basis.
But we do, and the game has no way of telling wheter you closed the game, quit the bg or crashed/disconnected.
But yes, allow us to choose game mode.
It very frustrating to have half a team playing dm and the other half objective.
And I straight up need to take a break after getting 5 relic games in a row, I'm proper traumatized.

ketsparrowhawk

Heyy!

I agree. It isn't fair to either side. Objective people don't get what they want, Deathmatchers don't get what they want either.

I am one of those who just wants Deathmatch. Before it was made random-only, I only ever Queued for DM. I do not find the objectives particularly interesting, but I do find the combat quite engaging and so that's what I'm here for.

After our conversation in-game a few days ago, OP, I decided to make a change in my approach as long as we're in this random-only situation. I've noticed that far more people are concerned about objectives in the solo queue. So from now on, if I just want DM, I'll stick to the group q. If I want to do solo q, I'll focus objectives more. I hope that's somewhat of a compromise. It's frustrating when all I want to do is PVP and I get 5 capture-the-relic matches in a row and nobody wants to fight at all.

I like the idea of kills earning points in every mode.. just not as many points as they get in DM. Say like.. 5 points per kill in non-DM modes? So it would be easier to win by focusing the objective. But if there's someone in group just DMing, they're at least contributing to the W. And premades could choose to try to win by objective or by kills and build their team accordingly (spoiler: they'll all choose the latter).

Another simple solution would be to just delete all non-deathmatch modes from the group queue and leave the solo queue how it is. I don't know of any premades that care about anything other than deathmatch. I doubt there'd be many complaints.

MurderMostFoul

If we can't choose our game mode, at least increase the frequency of deathmatch. I think the vast majority of BGers would feel like 50% deathmatch is a huge improvement.

NordSwordnBoard

Chaos Keeper - Walk It Off Take 10,000,000 of damage from the Chaosball (cumulative)

I was never really going hard after this title, but it seems impossible now unless I devote all my playtime to rolling the dice for Chaosball. Which I am not going to do lol.

Previous set ups were flawed, but the current one is the worst imo.

NordSwordnBoard

Ranked Deathmatch Mode is the best way to separate the people there only to fight from the people with other motives like crystals, motifs, gear etc.

I would even bet DM players would give up rewards if it kept reward seekers out of the DM que. The other modes are generally more casual so it seems natural to divide these two camps. An organized 4 man does not want to crush randos looking for the fangedworm chest, and those randos want to fight other randos for a more even match.

CooloutAC

Firstmep wrote: »

CooloutAC wrote: »

[snip] I mean specifically treating every game mode likes its a dm which sandbags their mmr and also by sync dropping with their guilds in solo bg queues. This makes both the mmr and the solo queue totally pointless and that's why its a horrible experience for the avg player.

There is a couple solutions to this. You can heavily penalize and then perma ban habitual quitters like LoL and other games do. And you can also factor in K/D and Damage Done into the skill rating. Give us a win/loss stat and factor that in, or at least show it on the leaderboard.

If all else fails just give us the option to select game modes back. [snip] Let them play in deathmatch. and the more competitive non meta players can go back to picking relic and flag objective avoiding most of them. Only the daily should be random if anything.

Perma banning for quiting games would work, if we didn't experience crashes and disconnects on a regular basis.
But we do, and the game has no way of telling wheter you closed the game, quit the bg or crashed/disconnected.
But yes, allow us to choose game mode.
It very frustrating to have half a team playing dm and the other half objective.
And I straight up need to take a break after getting 5 relic games in a row, I'm proper traumatized.

People experience frequent crashes on gw2 all the time. MORE so then in ESO. In fact, Many people play ESO because gw2 crashes too much for them. It doesn't stop them from heavily penalizing quitting. I don't experience frequent crashes or disconnects except when in grayhost. Maybe stop downloading bad things on your pc?

CooloutAC

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

Heyy!

I agree. It isn't fair to either side. Objective people don't get what they want, Deathmatchers don't get what they want either.

I am one of those who just wants Deathmatch. Before it was made random-only, I only ever Queued for DM. I do not find the objectives particularly interesting, but I do find the combat quite engaging and so that's what I'm here for.

After our conversation in-game a few days ago, OP, I decided to make a change in my approach as long as we're in this random-only situation. I've noticed that far more people are concerned about objectives in the solo queue. So from now on, if I just want DM, I'll stick to the group q. If I want to do solo q, I'll focus objectives more. I hope that's somewhat of a compromise. It's frustrating when all I want to do is PVP and I get 5 capture-the-relic matches in a row and nobody wants to fight at all.

I like the idea of kills earning points in every mode.. just not as many points as they get in DM. Say like.. 5 points per kill in non-DM modes? So it would be easier to win by focusing the objective. But if there's someone in group just DMing, they're at least contributing to the W. And premades could choose to try to win by objective or by kills and build their team accordingly (spoiler: they'll all choose the latter).

Another simple solution would be to just delete all non-deathmatch modes from the group queue and leave the solo queue how it is. I don't know of any premades that care about anything other than deathmatch. I doubt there'd be many complaints.

You can't avoid all fighting though and expect to win against another good team playing the map.. You have to do both. The teams more likely to win fights in those examples will come out on top. GW2 is only a 3 flag domination mode for 5v5 and its highly competitive. You will actually get reported and accused of throwing the match if you refuse to cap flags and just chase enemies. The fact ESO has 3 teams means its even harder to avoid all fights and win. Objectives make the game more dynamic and interesting. Encourage more teamwork and strategy. Only having tactics starts to become based only on builds and classes and not everything would be viable.

CooloutAC

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

If we can't choose our game mode, at least increase the frequency of deathmatch. I think the vast majority of BGers would feel like 50% deathmatch is a huge improvement.

I don't agree with this. either let people choose or keep it equal.

CooloutAC

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

Heyy!

Another simple solution would be to just delete all non-deathmatch modes from the group queue and leave the solo queue how it is. I don't know of any premades that care about anything other than deathmatch. I doubt there'd be many complaints.

But this still doesn't address the sync dropping issue which is undermining the solo qeue. Truth is alot of players just want to ratgequit other by any means necessary. They don't even consider themselves cheaters. Sync Dropping is what destroyed and killed the playerbase off in gw1.

By the end of GW1 it was so hard to start a bg, because every match would have people quitting right at the beginning. You think 3 man teams are bad. Imagin if everyone quit every match which is how bad it got. ANd you would have to keep requeing maybe a dozen times in a row. No healer on our team? Quit the match. Didn't get sync dropped on the team with my friends? quit the match. People would be doing this just for the dailies in ESO since there is no penalties.

ketsparrowhawk

I haven’t seen any solid evidence that that is happening with any regularity. But if I see proof I’ll happily accept it. You seeing 2 ppl in group more than once isn’t proof imo.

Most ppl that I talk to who quit right away.. it’s because it isn’t deathmatch.

CooloutAC

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

Ranked Deathmatch Mode is the best way to separate the people there only to fight from the people with other motives like crystals, motifs, gear etc.

I would even bet DM players would give up rewards if it kept reward seekers out of the DM que. The other modes are generally more casual so it seems natural to divide these two camps. An organized 4 man does not want to crush randos looking for the fangedworm chest, and those randos want to fight other randos for a more even match.

See, I consider it the opposite. To me deathmatch depends on meta builds and classes. Objectives mean more team strategy. Brains not just Brawn. Strategy not just tactics. They make the match more dynamic. Simply overpowering and stomping under geared opponents would be no fun to a "competitive" player who wants "competitive" matches. Competitive players want to win matches playing the game the devs created against opponents with an equal chance. They want a win/loss record. IMO, give rewards for winning matches. If you don't want that, you are the opposite of competitive.

You will never see 1v1 as a respected e-sport in the e-sport community. Because simply put, one class will always out class another since mmo's tend not to be balanced too well. People spend a long time building certain roles and classes and they want them to be viablel. IMO, deathmatch is what you do to practice your fighting tactics, then you take that into an official game to combine with your team strategy to win matches and map objectives.

ketsparrowhawk

CooloutAC wrote: »

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

Ranked Deathmatch Mode is the best way to separate the people there only to fight from the people with other motives like crystals, motifs, gear etc.

I would even bet DM players would give up rewards if it kept reward seekers out of the DM que. The other modes are generally more casual so it seems natural to divide these two camps. An organized 4 man does not want to crush randos looking for the fangedworm chest, and those randos want to fight other randos for a more even match.

See, I consider it the opposite. To me deathmatch depends on meta builds and classes. Objectives mean more team strategy. Brains not just Brawn. Strategy not just tactics. They make the match more dynamic. Simply overpowering and stomping under geared opponents would be no fun to a "competitive" player who wants "competitive" matches. Competitive players want to win matches playing the game the devs created against opponents with an equal chance. They want a win/loss record. IMO, give rewards for winning matches. If you don't want that, you are the opposite of competitive.

You will never see 1v1 as a respected e-sport in the e-sport community. Because simply put, one class will always out class another since mmo's tend not to be balanced too well. People spend a long time building certain roles and classes and they want them to be viablel. IMO, deathmatch is what you do to practice your fighting tactics, then you take that into an official game to combine with your team strategy to win matches and map objectives.

I suspect the devs have little interest in supporting this game as an actual esport but maybe I’m wrong.

And just look at the popular PvP content creators. Nobody is getting excited to watch fengrush play a flag game. They just want to see him fighting other players. Same with any other content creator. Spectators just wanna see deathmatch

CooloutAC

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

I haven’t seen any solid evidence that that is happening with any regularity. But if I see proof I’ll happily accept it. You seeing 2 ppl in group more than once isn’t proof imo.

Most ppl that I talk to who quit right away.. it’s because it isn’t deathmatch.

Lets just say a certain unamed guild that has most of the top players admit they do this themselves. T hey sync drop in the solo que which I something I predicted would happen. They are trying to get on the same team. Its underhanded and Its encouraged by their guild master and their members. I will confess I assumed it for a long time as common sense it happens. But some from that guild have bought it up to me without me even asking about it.

Quitting just because it is not deathmatch is just as bad. But even if we give a deathmatch only option. These players will still be undermining the matchmaker.

ketsparrowhawk

CooloutAC wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

I haven’t seen any solid evidence that that is happening with any regularity. But if I see proof I’ll happily accept it. You seeing 2 ppl in group more than once isn’t proof imo.

Most ppl that I talk to who quit right away.. it’s because it isn’t deathmatch.

Lets just say a certain unamed guild that has most of the top players admit they do this themselves. T hey sync drop in the solo que which I something I predicted would happen. They are trying to get on the same team. Its underhanded and Its encouraged by their guild master and their members. I will confess I assumed it for a long time as common sense it happens. But some from that guild have bought it up to me without me even asking about it.

Quitting just because it is not deathmatch is just as bad. But even if we give a deathmatch only option. These players will still be undermining the matchmaker.

I am a member of the guild you’re talking about and I’ve never seen or heard anyone say anything of the sort so again I’d need to see some proof.

Now, something that does happen.. and is just as bad.. is that IF they happen to get grouped with a guild mate, then they jump into discord together before the match starts. But I really don’t know what could be done about that. But tbh most are in the group q.

CooloutAC

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

CooloutAC wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

I haven’t seen any solid evidence that that is happening with any regularity. But if I see proof I’ll happily accept it. You seeing 2 ppl in group more than once isn’t proof imo.

Most ppl that I talk to who quit right away.. it’s because it isn’t deathmatch.

Lets just say a certain unamed guild that has most of the top players admit they do this themselves. T hey sync drop in the solo que which I something I predicted would happen. They are trying to get on the same team. Its underhanded and Its encouraged by their guild master and their members. I will confess I assumed it for a long time as common sense it happens. But some from that guild have bought it up to me without me even asking about it.

Quitting just because it is not deathmatch is just as bad. But even if we give a deathmatch only option. These players will still be undermining the matchmaker.

I am a member of the guild you’re talking about and I’ve never seen or heard anyone say anything of the sort so again I’d need to see some proof.

Now, something that does happen.. and is just as bad.. is that IF they happen to get grouped with a guild mate, then they jump into discord together before the match starts. But I really don’t know what could be done about that. But tbh most are in the group q.

I find that hard to believe.

And I don't see jumping in discord together if grouped as much of a problem as sync dropping into the qeue together with the hopes of grouping. It would only be cheating imo, if they were on opposite teams and trading wins.

ketsparrowhawk

Just like 99% of cheat claims on here. Never any proof.

CooloutAC

I was speaking hypothetically regarding discord. But call it "just as bad" as you did yourself already. You don't need proof for preventative measures regarding things that are historically common among gaming in general. I'm not going to screen shot people admitting to it in chat...lol. I'm not that kind of guy and the mods wouldn't approve anyways. But don't be so defensive.

Do you really not believe that people don't play the map in pvp and prefer only to deathmatch not caring about w/l? Ruining it for those that are more competitive? Again your definition of competitive is the complete opposite of mine. You don't think that undermines the mmr? And you don't believe people queue at the same time in solo mode to avoid getting pwned by better premades? Its literally waht killed off pvp in gw1. Anet made changes in gw2 because they learned from it.

Firstmep

CooloutAC wrote: »

I was speaking hypothetically regarding discord. But call it "just as bad" as you did yourself already. You don't need proof for preventative measures regarding things that are historically common among gaming in general. I'm not going to screen shot people admitting to it in chat...lol. I'm not that kind of guy and the mods wouldn't approve anyways. But don't be so defensive.

Do you really not believe that people don't play the map in pvp and prefer only to deathmatch not caring about w/l? Ruining it for those that are more competitive? Again your definition of competitive is the complete opposite of mine. You don't think that undermines the mmr? And you don't believe people queue at the same time in solo mode to avoid getting pwned by better premades? Its literally waht killed off pvp in gw1. Anet made changes in gw2 because they learned from it.

People play every mode as death match Beacuse they can't choose dm.
I'm in the biggest bg guild on EU and we don't coordinate into solo queue, Beacuse there is a separate one for premades anyway.
And we defo don't quit matches to drop. MMR, Beacuse You Can't Lose MMR, literally you don't lose rating no matter what.
You can lose a trillion games and yu will still only gain mmr not lose.

divnyi

Ok but what's the point? You wait full queue to join the game. Lets say you did sync drop, but chances to get to same team is 33%. You log out and queue again? Sounds like very inefficient time spending.

I see lots of guildmates in soloQ, most of the time it gives me the knowledge on my enemy rather than a strong ally.

ketsparrowhawk

CooloutAC wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

CooloutAC wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

I haven’t seen any solid evidence that that is happening with any regularity. But if I see proof I’ll happily accept it. You seeing 2 ppl in group more than once isn’t proof imo.

Most ppl that I talk to who quit right away.. it’s because it isn’t deathmatch.

Lets just say a certain unamed guild that has most of the top players admit they do this themselves. T hey sync drop in the solo que which I something I predicted would happen. They are trying to get on the same team. Its underhanded and Its encouraged by their guild master and their members. I will confess I assumed it for a long time as common sense it happens. But some from that guild have bought it up to me without me even asking about it.

Quitting just because it is not deathmatch is just as bad. But even if we give a deathmatch only option. These players will still be undermining the matchmaker.

I am a member of the guild you’re talking about and I’ve never seen or heard anyone say anything of the sort so again I’d need to see some proof.

Now, something that does happen.. and is just as bad.. is that IF they happen to get grouped with a guild mate, then they jump into discord together before the match starts. But I really don’t know what could be done about that. But tbh most are in the group q.

I find that hard to believe.

And I don't see jumping in discord together if grouped as much of a problem as sync dropping into the qeue together with the hopes of grouping. It would only be cheating imo, if they were on opposite teams and trading wins.

If being in comms in the solo q isn’t cheating then what is the point of having two q’s?

CooloutAC wrote: »

I was speaking hypothetically regarding discord. But call it "just as bad" as you did yourself already. You don't need proof for preventative measures regarding things that are historically common among gaming in general. I'm not going to screen shot people admitting to it in chat...lol. I'm not that kind of guy and the mods wouldn't approve anyways. But don't be so defensive.

Do you really not believe that people don't play the map in pvp and prefer only to deathmatch not caring about w/l? Ruining it for those that are more competitive? Again your definition of competitive is the complete opposite of mine. You don't think that undermines the mmr? And you don't believe people queue at the same time in solo mode to avoid getting pwned by better premades? Its literally waht killed off pvp in gw1. Anet made changes in gw2 because they learned from it.

The #1 complaint in our BG guild is long queue times. So imagine waiting 20 minutes in queue (common when an event isn't going on), then wanting to spend another 25 minutes in queue because you didn't get paired with your buddy? Truly and honestly, I don't know anyone who wants to spend their evening that way. Far better to just duo in the group queue. Duos usually don't get into very sweaty matches anyway.

It seems to me that you are assuming people's intentions. If you have no proof then this convo is pointless. I agree that we should be able to choose our BG mode of preference. Everyone agrees with that.

ketsparrowhawk

Delete

I’m tired lol

CooloutAC

divnyi wrote: »

Ok but what's the point? You wait full queue to join the game. Lets say you did sync drop, but chances to get to same team is 33%. You log out and queue again? Sounds like very inefficient time spending.

I see lots of guildmates in soloQ, most of the time it gives me the knowledge on my enemy rather than a strong ally.

people do it. its a coined term for a reason.

CooloutAC

Firstmep wrote: »

CooloutAC wrote: »

I was speaking hypothetically regarding discord. But call it "just as bad" as you did yourself already. You don't need proof for preventative measures regarding things that are historically common among gaming in general. I'm not going to screen shot people admitting to it in chat...lol. I'm not that kind of guy and the mods wouldn't approve anyways. But don't be so defensive.

Do you really not believe that people don't play the map in pvp and prefer only to deathmatch not caring about w/l? Ruining it for those that are more competitive? Again your definition of competitive is the complete opposite of mine. You don't think that undermines the mmr? And you don't believe people queue at the same time in solo mode to avoid getting pwned by better premades? Its literally waht killed off pvp in gw1. Anet made changes in gw2 because they learned from it.

People play every mode as death match Beacuse they can't choose dm.
I'm in the biggest bg guild on EU and we don't coordinate into solo queue, Beacuse there is a separate one for premades anyway.
And we defo don't quit matches to drop. MMR, Beacuse You Can't Lose MMR, literally you don't lose rating no matter what.
You can lose a trillion games and yu will still only gain mmr not lose.

that pretty much means the mmr doesn't even exist. where did you hear this?

The point is not dropping mmr, which is just another outcome, the point is to get on the same team while avoiding another premade. And As ketspawrrowhawk has admitted, even if they don't quit the match but get on comms when they do that can be an unfair advantage as well. Not as bad as trading wins on opposing teams or quitting to reqeue and sync dropping again. But still they should not be going into solo qeue, they should be going into group qeue at that point.

CooloutAC

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

If being in comms in the solo q isn’t cheating then what is the point of having two q’s?

The fact is many pvp players hang out in community discords. If they happen to group up with each other and decide to go on comms, fine. That is an unfair advantage over those that aren't, but its not as bad as purposely trying to undermine the match maker to group together which again ruins the whole point of a solo queue. I can half agree with you that these discords can lead to sync dropping. And you are right that they should be grouping up with each other if that is the case in the first place. Like i'm guessing you do, I consider that cheating. I agree.

But The point of having solo queues is to avoid the best mmr's stacking on the same team to overpower others. Comms don't determine someone's fighting tactics and skill level. I'm not saying comms would not be an advantage over others, but ironically they would have the least advantage in deathmatch mode compared to the other modes. lol. You bring up another point as to why the other game modes are more competitive and respected in e-sport communities over deathmatch. Comms help more with strategy then tactics in small fights. The only time they are a big advantage for tactics is in large cyrodil ball groups for example, imo.

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

The #1 complaint in our BG guild is long queue times. So imagine waiting 20 minutes in queue (common when an event isn't going on), then wanting to spend another 25 minutes in queue because you didn't get paired with your buddy? Truly and honestly, I don't know anyone who wants to spend their evening that way. Far better to just duo in the group queue. Duos usually don't get into very sweaty matches anyway.

It seems to me that you are assuming people's intentions. If you have no proof then this convo is pointless. I agree that we should be able to choose our BG mode of preference. Everyone agrees with that.

Wait 20 mins or roll a new toon that is not so overpowered imo. Or leave the game. IMO bg's are dead. you see the same people in every match. I wait that long for dungeon qeues I don't think its a big deal. PVP is such a small and toxic community its why I understand ZOS not caring about it. In many real life competitions and community tournaments, Groups who are "too good", are banned from competing. If we had a proper matchmaker that wasn't so undermined maybe pvp in this game would be more popular and the avg player can have competitive matches. Maybe even have separate leagues or ranked qeues just like Counterstrike did many years ago, and like LoL or gw2 does now.

Why not have a toon on every alliance, and pick an empty spot in cyrodil to do your team deatmatch practices. If Michael Jordan felt entitled to stomp noobs in the playground wanting competitive matches him and the sport would not be as respected. period.

But at least we can also agree they need to bring back the option to select game modes. Maybe even have a ranked and non ranked mode. I think the problem is, Forcing random modes was the solutionfor those whining about qeue times as you have just mentioned. I suspect not enough people were qeuing deathmatch because the matches were so uncompetitive. But this decision is not only bad for the avg player, but its also bad for good players who want competitive matches. They don't like to stomp noobs because that is not gratifying. It doesn't keep their skills sharp so its unproductive and its just not fun and challenging. I think most would prefer to play cyrodil for 20 mins and wait in queu if it actually meant getting a competitive match. This will attract more players and qeue times will gradually go down.

You want to get me banned but I'm not falling for your bait by posting proof. That is against TOS and like I said i'm not the type of guy to put people out there like that who have confided in me. But you cannot deny sync dropping has historically been a problem in online games and its a coined term for a reason. Simply put its human nature.

ketsparrowhawk

The fact that you’re accusing me of trying to get you banned speaks volumes for the rest of the claims you’re making here.

ketsparrowhawk

I’m not asking your advice on how to deal with long queues lmfao. I’m telling you nobody I know wants to waste the better part of an hour in q just to stomp noobs for 10 minutes. I’ve never seen anyone even suggest doing such a thing. If you have evidence then you should report it to the devs. Otherwise I doubt you’re going to convince them to dedicate time and resources and payroll addressing something that probably isn’t even happening.

ZOS_GregoryV

Greetings all,

Seeing as this thread has descended into more of an argument instead of a discussing, we have decided to close it down. When creating threads/posts, we ask that they be kept civil, constructive, and within the guidelines of the rules. If there may be any questions in regards to the rules, please feel free to take a few moments to review them here.

Thank you for your understanding,
-Greg-