Crafting materials & leveling

Ippokrates

TL;DR version: Make all crafting materials equal in statistics (damage or armour value), instead give every types of material unique feature.

Ok, so we all have an abudance of various crafting ore & ingots. But aside from rubedite stuff, is there any point in having them, once you will level your craftsmen to lvl 50? (What could take few days, even if you are an average player)

Sure, you can use different materials for roleplay (assuming you didn't get an outfit equivalent) or maybe try to use ore to get some tempers, but generally I cannot see a role for them (correct me if I am wrong), which is a shame, because I think that both weapons & armours are very well designed. Well, at least for first three types of materials, because from 4th material all designes are the same.

New players will most probably just use overland equipment to reach the cap, because crafting is beyond their grasp & very few trading guild make a training equipment for low levels (plus costs of such equipment is quite high for newbie).

When advanced player is making an Alt, also, there is no incentive for using crafted equipment. Sure, you can make yourself a training set for grinding, but within next few levels (days if not hours of gameplay) It will start loosing bonuses to the point, where non-set equipment will be better than them,. Plus, even with overland sets, you can easily collect yourself a training gear in every combination.


So, wouldn't be better for such large & rich in content open world game as ESO, to make all types of materials equal in terms of damage or armour value?

Instead devs could give each of them unique feature which will reflect specific properties of material. For example (only sugestions to show where I am going with this):

- Iron - massively reduces costs of repairs (which will however require introduction of durability to weapons)

- Stell - small bonus while fighting against players.

- Orichalcium - bonus to dmg/armour when fighting agains beast or whatever non-daedric creature we could find in wilderness.

- Dwarven stuff - substantial increase in statistics, while giving penalty to stamina actions & magicka skill costs.

- Ebony - increased durability (again, it would require durability to weapons)

- Calcinium - bonus to stamina skills/weapon resistance.

- Galatite - reduced stats, giving bonus to sustain recovery of H/S/M.

- Quicksilver -bonus against "magic"/daedric monsters.

- Voidstone - maybe something for sneaking & surprise attacks?

- Rubedite - bonus to magicka skills/ spell resistance.
-

These are of course only ideas to wokr with, but imho such approach is something that could add a new level of customization for craftable equipment & in result, give all craftsmen & harvesters a good source of income + metabuilders would have even more to work with, so at the end it will be beneficial for whole community.

VaranisArano

Before One Tamriel, gaining CP and reaching Vet 15 (rubedite) was a much longer process. When I leveled, I was actually using stuff like Calcinium for a much longer time. With One Tamriel, ZOS didn't reset the crafting mats. The result is that players speed through stuff like galatite or void cloth on their way to CP 160. ZOS is aware of this and simplified Jewelry mat tiers down to five, but did not retroactively change the other tiers.

As a maxed crafter, I keep a small stash of old materials in case a guildie asks for lower level training gear. You say this is rare, but my experience has been that if a newbie asks, guildmates are often willing to make a quick training set - and often, for free.

Similarly, you point out that there's no incentive to use crafted equipment on Alts, but that's actually exactly what I do. I've got a single set of training armor in a crafted bonus I like that works well for tanking Random Normal dungeons and for playing Below 50 BGs. My alts wear that, swapping out as they level up, and fill in the rest of their gear with dropped set pieces from dungeons/quests.


Finally, I'm not sure that adding yet another component to armor is necessary. Looking at your suggestions, it looks very similar to how traits work right now. There's ones that are clearly BIS for PVE or PVP, and then there's ones that would get about as much use as Prosperous.

Did you consider how this would impact drop tables? Are all the options going to drop? As a PVPer, I'd probably want Steel, so it'd be a problem if everything drops in Rubedite. It would also hugely extend the current grind if the piece I need can drop in every type from Iron to Void.

Ippokrates

Thanks you for your time

VaranisArano wrote: »

Before One Tamriel, gaining CP and reaching Vet 15 (rubedite) was a much longer process. When I leveled, I was actually using stuff like Calcinium for a much longer time. With One Tamriel, ZOS didn't reset the crafting mats. The result is that players speed through stuff like galatite or void cloth on their way to CP 160. ZOS is aware of this and simplified Jewelry mat tiers down to five, but did not retroactively change the other tiers.

Yes, I can see the difference in jewelry too, but regardless of system, there are always people that will reduces the time of leveling to minimum, so IMHO I think it would be wise to leave a space to use all kind of materials, not only those in top tier

VaranisArano wrote: »

As a maxed crafter, I keep a small stash of old materials in case a guildie asks for lower level training gear. You say this is rare, but my experience has been that if a newbie asks, guildmates are often willing to make a quick training set - and often, for free.

Sure, I did it too, but that's the point - when they are starting, they have additional health/stam/mana & reduced costs of skills, so game seems relatively easy, but with every level they are getting weaker due to decrease of stats & increase in costs. If you add to this equipment which they will not replace within 10-20 levels, then those slightly less experience gamers, might have problems even with basic solo content, which I have seen few times.

Having a crafted set strictly for training, which will not be weaker with every level, might give them opportunity to practice their skills and in result learn how to use their skills in ESO, especially with weaving & AC. With contant changes, such performance could be quite annoying.

VaranisArano wrote: »

Similarly, you point out that there's no incentive to use crafted equipment on Alts, but that's actually exactly what I do. I've got a single set of training armor in a crafted bonus I like that works well for tanking Random Normal dungeons and for playing Below 50 BGs. My alts wear that, swapping out as they level up, and fill in the rest of their gear with dropped set pieces from dungeons/quests.

Well, i tried it too - I crafted my alts two sets for training, first at 16 lvl, second around 36, but finally I have decided to test a tank strictly with overland sets, and it performes just good as them, if not better, as I was leveling mainly on random dungeons, so I had access to dungeon equip on a current level, instead of craftable which was always few levels lower.

VaranisArano wrote: »

Finally, I'm not sure that adding yet another component to armor is necessary. Looking at your suggestions, it looks very similar to how traits work right now. There's ones that are clearly BIS for PVE or PVP, and then there's ones that would get about as much use as Prosperous.

But don't you think that armour traits are somewhat limited in comparison to weapons & jewelry?

Plus, look at all those discussion around glyphs - which kind of glyph use in which situation, which is better... I think that all kind of guides are what fuel to ESO community, so giving another option to be discussed, might give people more to talk about

VaranisArano wrote: »

Did you consider how this would impact drop tables? Are all the options going to drop? As a PVPer, I'd probably want Steel, so it'd be a problem if everything drops in Rubedite. It would also hugely extend the current grind if the piece I need can drop in every type from Iron to Void.

Yes, I did. And of course all options should have chance to be dropped, just as in case of traits (maybe except some unique items). However, system of set collections & transmutation implemented in ESO, should easily solve this issue - so if you get wrong item - transmute it. If you get right one (especially on ALT who will be leveling in Deshaan) - more reasons to joy

VaranisArano

So, are you expected there to be a additional transmutation step for different armor types, such as Steel to Rubedite? Since we're adding essentially 10 more factors to the RNG for drops?

Just trying to figure out how this will work, practically. A set like Mother's Sorrow is going to desirable in Ancestor Silk and useless in Kreshweed. So now I'm dealing with another RNG factor every time I open a chest: which set is it, which piece is it, which trait is it, and which material is it.

3 sets X 20 gear/weapon X 9 traits X 10 materials

That adds a lot of RNG. Even if we consider farming, say, Dungeon final bosses for specific jewelry, shield or weapon pieces, we're still talking 3 X 15 gear/weapon X 9 traits/(3 traits if we get jewelry) X 10 materials if we get a shield or weapon.

Now, traits can be transmuted, which makes it obvious how much ZOS chopped down the level of grinding from what it was prior to the introduction of transmutation. Transmutation replaces the (x9 trait) or (x3 trait) with grinding for transmutation crystals instead.


So the way I see it, you are suggesting adding a (x10 material) grind to every single gear or weapon piece in the game in order to get an additional benefit. In compensation, we can do an alternate grind for transmutation crystals in order to get the material we want or to use the stickerbook.

Now, personally, I am not in favor of adding a (x10 material) grind to the already grindy process of getting the correct gear, and allowing me to grind for transmutation stones to make this new grind easier does not actually make me like it any more. A small additional benefit from different materials is not worth me having to regrind, say, my rubedo leather Briarheart so its in the desired material for a Stamina build instead of a magicka build. Nor do I desire to spend my time grinding transmutation crystals so I can transmute or reconstruct my Briarheart gear into the best material for what it's used for.

Maybe you enjoy regrinding for gear or transmutation stones? I don't particularly enjoy it.


Side note: i realize you intended the suggestions to be placeholders, but they illustrated a issue that's going to plague ZOS no matter what they change it to: some players are going to get hit harder with the regrind than others. Unintentionally or not, I see that Rubedite-tier mats would likely be the BIS for magicka according to your suggestions, so Magic builds would be fine while Stam builds get hosed by having to regrind or transmute materials. PVPers who would use Steel and Voidstone likewise get hosed - I have a Vicious Death set that would be beastly in Void Cloth for those surprise attacks, but it's Ancestor Silk right now. I'd have to buy those pieces from the RNG PVP merchant again (x10 materials RNG now) or I'd have to grind for the transmutation crystals to transmute the material.

Ippokrates

Well, I was think more of materials instead of transmuting crystals (or they could be used in symbolic quantities). That's the whole point, to make crafting more diverse & desiderable, so more people with be involved in collecting & trading materials.

But still, it is only a bonus. If you want it, you'll manage to utilize this function, if not, don't. There is no penalty, unlike in light & heavy armour, so people experimenting with mixing both armours to reduce penalties to minimum.

In this case, cummulation could be replaced by balancing, for example voidstone could eliminate or reduce penalty for beign detected in heavy armour (of course when whole detection will be repaired ), or you mage build can use "stamina" calcinium to eliminate penalty for martial attacks in light armour, etc. - for some people that could be more important than adding few percent to already impressing dmg

Nestor

Before the Outfit System I had hopes that we would be able to use any material, just change the amount. Some of the earlier materials lool so much better that Ruby.

Ippokrates

Nestor wrote: »

Before the Outfit System I had hopes that we would be able to use any material, just change the amount. Some of the earlier materials lool so much better that Ruby.

That would be great too, especially for my favourite orsimer armour, which I secretly adore since Morrowind

VaranisArano

Ippokrates wrote: »

Well, I was think more of materials instead of transmuting crystals (or they could be used in symbolic quantities). That's the whole point, to make crafting more diverse & desiderable, so more people with be involved in collecting & trading materials.

But still, it is only a bonus. If you want it, you'll manage to utilize this function, if not, don't. There is no penalty, unlike in light & heavy armour, so people experimenting with mixing both armours to reduce penalties to minimum.

In this case, cummulation could be replaced by balancing, for example voidstone could eliminate or reduce penalty for beign detected in heavy armour (of course when whole detection will be repaired ), or you mage build can use "stamina" calcinium to eliminate penalty for martial attacks in light armour, etc. - for some people that could be more important than adding few percent to already impressing dmg

If we go with using materials for transmutation, then it becomes a matter of how do we acquire those mats? Some of them are going to be very desirable, others much less so.

Do we go back to the old pre-One Tamriel method where certain zones have specific mats? Do we make it more new player friendly where every zone has every material (and thus drop the supply of desirable materials). Or do we use the current system where we take out skill points if we want to get a certain level of materials to spawn while farming?

I'm trying to work out how this would work, practically. I farm materials for sale, so how this suggestion would impact my regular activities is pretty important to me.


Finally, I'm not sure that "just don't use it if you don't like it" is a workable solution for many players. Consider that end game PVE and PVP does revolve around competition and the meta. If my MagSorc isn't using the material that boosts her build and someone else is, I'm not going to perform as well as I should for my group. If I'm wearing rubedo leather that boosts magicka on my Stamina build, then swapping to Top-ranking hide that boosts Stamina isn't really an option - or if it is technically an option, it's a really bad one.

I realize that a lot of players love variety for its own sake, but when I also look at the huge variety of armor sets we have now, most of them never see use beyond overland content or niche content like Thieves Guild dailies.. The same is true of armor/weapon traits right now - most of them just aren't used. Just having variety for its own sake isn't necessarily a good thing if it's adding lots of limited-usefulness/niche items to an already crowded RNG table.

Ippokrates

Dividing materials between zones seems the best option, however that could lead to overcrowding of certain areas, like Craglorn right now.

Well, that's the whole point - if you are meta-supah-uber player you will use every percent of advantage you can get. But if you play more in lore friendly style or prefer solo builds, than those materials could create unique compositions you can simply enjoy. Especially, when you need to balance dmg-def-sustain, not goes full way in single direction.

FlopsyPrince

I make leveling gear all the time for alts.

I have piled up plenty of upgrade mats so I usually make purple at 1, 16-20, 36-40, and then starting gear at 50. Jewelry only goes to blue for the most part.

I am starting to run low on plating (purple and gold) so I am not sure how much I will push those, even at 50, in the future.

Ippokrates

I was doing the same (fortunately during last three events I grinded so much purple items I have no problem with upgrades), but during leveling of my last Alt, I have noticed that using Overland items (many time there was enough of them to get 3-5 set bonus) which I was changing after every dung, was more efficient than using craftable sets around 16 & 36 lvls.

etchedpixels

I'm increasingly finding crafted sets make no sense for levelling your own toons except at very low levels. Once your toon has learned one essential trait for each gear piece they need it's simply more efficient to have all of a few key collectable sets in the stickerbook and just keep reconstructing your gear up a few levels each time (at no extra cost as its 25 to decon, 25 to recon)

Once you've got all of mother's sorrow, all of trainee (mostly very cheap from guild stores), battalion defender and a few other sets you just don't need to craft anything any more except for some of the niche or top end sets for cp 160 stuff.

The price of jewellery mats also makes this the case - if I know bloodthirsty, triune etc it's vastly cheaper to make sure the jewellery is from a dungeon set and just pulled out for crystals than to try and get the mats.

FlopsyPrince

etchedpixels wrote: »

I'm increasingly finding crafted sets make no sense for levelling your own toons except at very low levels. Once your toon has learned one essential trait for each gear piece they need it's simply more efficient to have all of a few key collectable sets in the stickerbook and just keep reconstructing your gear up a few levels each time (at no extra cost as its 25 to decon, 25 to recon)

Once you've got all of mother's sorrow, all of trainee (mostly very cheap from guild stores), battalion defender and a few other sets you just don't need to craft anything any more except for some of the niche or top end sets for cp 160 stuff.

The price of jewellery mats also makes this the case - if I know bloodthirsty, triune etc it's vastly cheaper to make sure the jewellery is from a dungeon set and just pulled out for crystals than to try and get the mats.

The cost of making stickerbook items is high enough for some of us to not make them all the time. I don't get enough of the key payment, I forget that exact name.

etchedpixels

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

The cost of making stickerbook items is high enough for some of us to not make them all the time. I don't get enough of the key payment, I forget that exact name.

There is an investment to make - but once you have all of a set in the stickerbook and run a bunch of random dungeons to get a crystal supply the cost becomes 0. You pay 25 to make it, you get 25 back on a deconstruct.

HyekAr

I like your idea, actually I find the crafting system very poor(weapon,armor, jwlry) for the kind of game is TESO. It seems to me that the developers had a long term view for developing the crafting, but they stopped in the process.
I created this topic abt this: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/570217/dwarfs-race-new-crafting-system/p1?new=1