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Please remove all proc sets from BG's

Chase0351
Chase0351
Hi all,

Strictly speaking, pvp is supposed to be competitive skill based gameplay with the key being skill based. IMHO the skill in pvp within this game comes from one having to deal damage, heal, manage their resources and buffs all on their own. But when the gear you have on starts to do these things for you it starts taking away from the skill based gameplay aspect of pvp within ESO. Now we're at the point where there's not much skill involved at all when your kill recap is procs, for example, crimson, zaans, grothdarr, etc. To be clear a player should have to earn each kill by doing the work his/her self, period. And on top of this some players are no longer having to manage the healing and resource management aspect of the skilled based gameplay due to sets like engine guardian and essence thief. Again, this too can make or break a fight and therefore should be required to be manually done by the player. Absolutely no damage, healing, buffs or resource management should ever happen in pvp without the player manually activating an ability to facilitate the action, outside of having a dedicated healer, obviously. Stat based sets will still allow build diversity and will still offer stat buffs to the player without affecting the integrity of the skill based aspect of the gameplay within pvp due to the fact that they will still have to do everything themselves without automated assistance. Maintaining the integrity of the skill based aspect of competitive pvp in ESO should always remain the top priority. There is no room to hand out a gold star sticker to everyone, it needs to be earned. I'm sure some players will not agree with this post and that's fine. We all have our opinions and are entitled to them, for sure. However, pvp should always be about raw skill, period. There is and always will be players that are simply better than others as with anything else in life. If you are mediocre and want to feel more powerful than you are there are other aspects of ESO outside of pvp where you can do that, namely pve content which is where proc sets belong, and really that is the only place where they belong(although most trials are pretty laggy as well). And of course, as always, they still have the option to zerg. Lastly, with all of the procs kicking back to the server plus the animations it really ends up creating lag even in small scale BG's, causing ultimates not to go off when triggered, etc. When you combine this with people using multiple combat pets(another issue for a different discussion) it really starts to slow things down in combat. This game already has a lot going on at its base level. (For reference my latency is 50 ms, 500mbps.)

Things are already improving in cyrodiil, in regards to the competitive gameplay aspect of things, on all platforms. If we can pivot all pvp, including BG's, cyrodiil, dueling as well as all future campaigns, towards this direction I promise the player skill base of eso pvp will increase because people will become better players overall by learning proper mechanics and tactics if they choose to put the time in and do the work.

IMHO, for those of us who actually want to improve at pvp in ESO by doing the work ourselves this type of system will create a much more rewarding style of gameplay by way of earning each kill. If you're not interested in that kind of thing and want to be able to casually log on and feel powerful without the extra work you can still zerg, no problem. But, the reward should come from the challenge, always. I hope this discussion finds everyone well and I look forward to any and all feedback.

Best Regards,

C
  • Urzigurumash
    Urzigurumash
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    Chase0351 wrote: »
    Absolutely no damage, healing, buffs or resource management should ever happen in pvp without the player manually activating an ability to facilitate the action, outside of having a dedicated healer, obviously.

    How do you feel about things other than proc sets which do what you describe, and how do you feel about proc sets which require one or more manual inputs?
    Xbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast
  • Chase0351
    Chase0351
    Chase0351 wrote: »
    Absolutely no damage, healing, buffs or resource management should ever happen in pvp without the player manually activating an ability to facilitate the action, outside of having a dedicated healer, obviously.

    How do you feel about things other than proc sets which do what you describe, and how do you feel about proc sets which require one or more manual inputs?

    If you mean sets like essence thief that proc off of LA/HA then I am opposed to them. IMHO, if you want to damage your opponent, heal, buff, cleanse yourself or anything else combat related you need to manually bar swap to the respective bar that that skill is on and actually press a button to activate it, whatever it may be. Therein lies the actual skill aspect of it. Performance while under pressure. Pvp cannot be about simply running around light attacking or something mindless like that and having respectable damage done from an outside source(proc sets).

    Lmk if I misunderstood what you were talking about or if that answers your question. I enjoy civil exchanges of differing opinions.

    Thanks for the response too.
  • Chase0351
    Chase0351
    Firstmep wrote: »
    I don't think outright removing procs is the way to go.
    PvP already gets so little attention from Zos content wise, now you are telling them that they won't be able to sell new content to pvp players at all?
    Not likely to happen.
    Procsets need to be reigned in for sure, frankly the flat Stat increase was a step in the right direction, but I would still prefer them to go all the way and make procs scale with stats as a way to balance them out.
    I won't go into details as this has been discussed to death in other topics, but yeah I don't think what you are asking for is feasible.
    Also not to rain on anyone's parade, but skilled players are generally much better at utilizing procs, just as they're better in a no cp setting.
    Wearing zaan and vate destro doesn't suddenly make you a 0 skill trash player, no matter how much that hyperbole gets thrown around on these forums.
    Also I don't think that skilled gameplay means that things only happen on your screen when you press a button.
    There are ways to time burst procs, just like you can time things like curse frag ele wpn execute.
    Not to mention that we haven't gotten a new skill line that everyone can use in combat since summer set, so sets are really the only way to diversify builds.

    If you want to play mmo pvp where everyone uses the same generic boring Stat gear then GW2 is that way.
    Ofc they have other ways of allowing for more diverse build choices..

    Ok, so I'm going to try and address each of your points.
    Firstmep wrote: »
    I don't think outright removing procs is the way to go.
    PvP already gets so little attention from Zos content wise, now you are telling them that they won't be able to sell new content to pvp players at all?

    ZOS most likely makes great revenue off of the crown store and other avenues of eso similar to that. Therefore, they need to figure how to spice up pvp correctly without ruining the integrity of the skill based aspect of the gameplay within pvp. That's not our jobs to figure that out, it's theirs because this game is their livelihood. Quite possibly, pvp might get more attention if more players weren't turned off by it in regards to hardcore pve players that loathe the thought of pvp. That seems like a balance issue, but now we're getting into fundamental issues with the core of the game and I think it's a bit off topic for this discussion.
    Firstmep wrote: »
    Procsets need to be reigned in for sure, frankly the flat Stat increase was a step in the right direction, but I would still prefer them to go all the way and make procs scale with stats as a way to balance them out.

    Making them scale with stats will only create imbalance in another direction. The sets are the problems themselves. While the theoretical idea of proc sets seemed great in their brainstorm meeting way back when, the delivery has manifested into the problem that we have today. Proc sets completely remove any skill based competitive aspect of pvp due to the fact that they are automated.
    Firstmep wrote: »
    Also not to rain on anyone's parade, but skilled players are generally much better at utilizing procs, just as they're better in a no cp setting.

    Actually, if you spend a decent amount of time in BG's or if you watch any footage online of 1vX'ers they have a much more difficult time in solo non-CP BG's. CP plays a big role in damage mitigation and also damage output. While it may be true that a skilled player can make great use of a proc set, proc sets help zerglings shine even more by way of getting kills and doing damage, healing, etc. that would normally not be capable of. I think the latter burns more. No CP AND no proc sets would effectively eliminate all of that from BG's and boil it down to straight skill. Might even see some so called skilled players brought back down to reality, who knows.
    Firstmep wrote: »
    Wearing zaan and vate destro doesn't suddenly make you a 0 skill trash player, no matter how much that hyperbole gets thrown around on these forums.

    Imo, proc sets do turn zeros into heroes by the simple fact that they are automatically putting out damage that they would not otherwise be capable of doing(via proc sets) simply because new players don't move well, bar swap well and have bad situational awareness. All of which will improve in due time if they spend time playing pvp instead of farming pve dungeons. Why should someone's performance in pvp be rewarded for what they did in pve? It shouldn't, you should be rewarded for your time spent in pvp, and vice versa for pve content. 1vX'ers shouldn't have some big advantage in pve trials right? Maybe they should actually have PVP sets you get in PVP that are actually better than a dungeon farmed set so as to give incentives to pvp more for those interested.
    Firstmep wrote: »
    Also I don't think that skilled gameplay means that things only happen on your screen when you press a button.
    There are ways to time burst procs, just like you can time things like curse frag ele wpn execute.
    Not to mention that we haven't gotten a new skill line that everyone can use in combat since summer set, so sets are really the only way to diversify builds.

    So, there is no skill is timing something automated. An example of a skilled timed burst would be: activate crystal weapon, LA, dizzying swing, MA, executioner. That entire combo has to be initiated and activated all the way through by the player. That takes practice, time and skill. If the players crimson activates and kills the players opponent before he finishes the combo, that's not skill. He could have messed up the combo without crimson and the tide of battle could've went in his opponents favor. I'm not sure how long you've been playing ESO but this is the way combat used to be much moreso. You had to do the work to secure the kill.
    Firstmep wrote: »
    If you want to play mmo pvp where everyone uses the same generic boring Stat gear then GW2 is that way.
    Ofc they have other ways of allowing for more diverse build choices..

    Imho, they should have as many sets as people want, but no set should ever provide damage for you or heal you or anything else that would otherwise get you killed if you do not do yourself. The lack of diversity at that point would boil down to fundamental issues with the creativity of the game at core levels. If you want to play an MMO that requires no skill because you can farm pve sets that do all of your damage, healing, buffing, etc. for you then I'm at a loss of words for you because I do not think you belong in pvp and do not respect you in that regard, I'm sorry. PVP is not PVE and vice versa. They are and should be different. Each avenue should require it's own attention from the individual if they want to excel at either one.

    PVP should always be 100% about competitive skill based gameplay. Some players will be better than others. Such is life, not everyone is Michael Jordan in real life. Why would anything else that is competitive in nature be any different? That's why they have leaderboards, even for pve content like vMA. We shouldn't settle for the "everyone gets a gold star sticker" mentality just for showing up. There's plenty of other content within ESO for that.

    Thanks for responding and I hope I addressed your questions and concerns. Lmk if I missed something.

    Best Regards,

    C
  • Canned_Apples
    Canned_Apples
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    As much as I want to play bgs, I can’t bring myself to playing it because of @ZOS_BrianWheeler ’s proc meta.
    There’s just no competing against malacath plus three proc set builds.

    As it stands, I can only play in cyrodiil but that can get really boring really fast.
  • Chilly-McFreeze
    Chilly-McFreeze
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    Chase0351 wrote: »
    Firstmep wrote: »
    Procsets need to be reigned in for sure, frankly the flat Stat increase was a step in the right direction, but I would still prefer them to go all the way and make procs scale with stats as a way to balance them out.

    Making them scale with stats will only create imbalance in another direction. The sets are the problems themselves. While the theoretical idea of proc sets seemed great in their brainstorm meeting way back when, the delivery has manifested into the problem that we have today. Proc sets completely remove any skill based competitive aspect of pvp due to the fact that they are automated.



    Could you dive deeper into this?
    Edited by Chilly-McFreeze on March 30, 2021 6:33PM
  • Chase0351
    Chase0351
    FWIW, I practice what I preach. I main a stamsorc, currently running: spriggans front bar, fortified brass, endurance back bar, 1pc bolorgh. 6/1 Med/Hvy. Straight stats and I have my highs and lows in game, as it should be. As I said before, some players will be better than others. Stat builds are already a breath of fresh air in cyrodiil, even with cp(not the real problem here, imho). BG's still allow proc sets and while you can definitely still get some good games, procs are over running the environment since they've been temp banned from open world pvp. The proof's in the pudding.
  • Chase0351
    Chase0351
    Chase0351 wrote: »
    Firstmep wrote: »
    Procsets need to be reigned in for sure, frankly the flat Stat increase was a step in the right direction, but I would still prefer them to go all the way and make procs scale with stats as a way to balance them out.

    Making them scale with stats will only create imbalance in another direction. The sets are the problems themselves. While the theoretical idea of proc sets seemed great in their brainstorm meeting way back when, the delivery has manifested into the problem that we have today. Proc sets completely remove any skill based competitive aspect of pvp due to the fact that they are automated.



    Could you dive deeper into this?

    Yes, whether they scale or not they would still create an imbalance in the game as they are currently because they would still automatically do your damage, healing, buffing and resource management for you. That's not competitive skill based gameplay. That's like having aimbot in a shooter game. In pve, sure, if they really want to. In pvp, no. That type of assistance has no place in competitive skill based gameplay, sorry. It's dumbing down the player skill base.

    Hopefully that answered your question or concern. Lmk if you need anything else.

    Best Regards,

    C
  • MurderMostFoul
    MurderMostFoul
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    As much as I want to play bgs, I can’t bring myself to playing it because of @ZOS_BrianWheeler ’s proc meta.
    There’s just no competing against malacath plus three proc set builds.

    As it stands, I can only play in cyrodiil but that can get really boring really fast.

    Have you played BGs this patch? Procs no longer reign supreme.
    “There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.”
  • Chase0351
    Chase0351
    As much as I want to play bgs, I can’t bring myself to playing it because of @ZOS_BrianWheeler ’s proc meta.
    There’s just no competing against malacath plus three proc set builds.

    As it stands, I can only play in cyrodiil but that can get really boring really fast.

    Have you played BGs this patch? Procs no longer reign supreme.

    All day, everyday. I prefer the quick battle encounters to open world since I'm not into sieges and catapults, even with proc sets banned currently.

    And yes, it is still super noticeable in BG's, even worse since we have no CP there to mitigate the ridiculous incoming damage nor the extra damage output to take down mr. engine guardian crimson warden guy, as he should be put to bed. Like I said a couple posts up, I have my highs and lows in game as we all should have. Every now and then we get a match with no noticeable proc abuse, but for the most part it's super apparent and it does take away from the integrity and experience of the game. If I get killed by a skilled player that clearly bested me, gg. If a clear and cut zergling wearing 4+ procs cheeses me it's no fun, imagine how new players must feel who haven't spent countless hours fighting game mechanics in pve dungeons to farm these sets. Btw, I'm on console, all of the proc zerglings have flocked to BG's on xbox NA. Not imperial city, not cyrodiil, but BG's.

    FWIW, I actually do like a lot of the changes they made this patch. From a core stand point it does feel more balanced regarding the armor and what not.
  • Chase0351
    Chase0351
    Also, FWIW, I'm aware that they most likely are never going to completely get rid of proc sets in pvp, since a major portion of the pvp population heavily relies on them and doing so could be detrimental the pvp population. However, at a very minimum they need to implement some kind of code that only allows one proc set to worn by a player at a time, similar to the rule with mythic items. That would be a reasonable compromise and at least make the proc use also compromise with their cheese kit.
  • MurderMostFoul
    MurderMostFoul
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    Chase0351 wrote: »
    As much as I want to play bgs, I can’t bring myself to playing it because of @ZOS_BrianWheeler ’s proc meta.
    There’s just no competing against malacath plus three proc set builds.

    As it stands, I can only play in cyrodiil but that can get really boring really fast.

    Have you played BGs this patch? Procs no longer reign supreme.

    All day, everyday. I prefer the quick battle encounters to open world since I'm not into sieges and catapults, even with proc sets banned currently.

    And yes, it is still super noticeable in BG's, even worse since we have no CP there to mitigate the ridiculous incoming damage nor the extra damage output to take down mr. engine guardian crimson warden guy, as he should be put to bed. Like I said a couple posts up, I have my highs and lows in game as we all should have. Every now and then we get a match with no noticeable proc abuse, but for the most part it's super apparent and it does take away from the integrity and experience of the game. If I get killed by a skilled player that clearly bested me, gg. If a clear and cut zergling wearing 4+ procs cheeses me it's no fun, imagine how new players must feel who haven't spent countless hours fighting game mechanics in pve dungeons to farm these sets. Btw, I'm on console, all of the proc zerglings have flocked to BG's on xbox NA. Not imperial city, not cyrodiil, but BG's.

    FWIW, I actually do like a lot of the changes they made this patch. From a core stand point it does feel more balanced regarding the armor and what not.

    Lol, I'm a high MMR Xbox NA BGer (solo queue). I've played every (stam) class this patch pretty extensively and Magplar (I also experimented with my new mag DK, but it went embarrassingly poorly). I don't run any proc damage or healing sets, except for a little Selenes on my stamplar and engine guardian on my magplar.

    In my experience, procs sets just haven't had the impact they used to. My burst is strong enough to overcome proc healing, and my heals are enough to overcome proc dots.

    Honestly, the only proc set that I've found to be challenging is caluurions. It can make a powerful burst even more deadly. At least that one doesn't pair with Malacath.

    If you're trying to play some kind of attrition build, then I could see how facing a proc heavy build would be problematic. But that's just not a very viable route this patch. Maybe if you are in group queue, things might be different there. If everyone is all balled up, and procs are just firing and left and right, that could get annoying. But in solo queue, where the action is a little more spread out, procs haven't been that big of a deal for me.
    Edited by MurderMostFoul on March 31, 2021 1:01AM
    “There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.”
  • Nord_Raseri
    Nord_Raseri
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    Please remove all sets from bgs
    Veit ég aðég hékk vindga meiði á nætr allar níu, geiri undaðr og gefinn Oðni, sjálfr sjálfum mér, á þeim meiði er manngi veit hvers hann af rótum rennr.
  • Chase0351
    Chase0351
    Firstmep wrote: »
    Please, enough with the hyperboles..

    Proc sets really only got bad last year, they were (for most of the game) a non issue(since the last proc meta).

    No one cared one bit about someone running selene or velidreth and the like.

    Then ZOS buffed most of these sets, introduced new ones that are still broken beyond belief and added an item that buffs their dmg by 25% for virtually no downside.

    This - on top of already existing mechanics, that were already getting out of hand like hp based heals, hp recovery buffed into actual relevance, massive free regen for every etc - shifted the game to a very bad direction in a very short period of time.

    A lot of people have a very bad experience with proc sets recently, so i can understand why most dont even want them in the game anymore, but reality is, theyre part of the game and too much work went into them to just outright remove them.

    And like i already said, we havent gotten any new skills in forever. Also realisticly there is so much the devs can for with new sets if they cant make them do dmg or heal.
    We already have too many sets that more or less do the same thing, or magicka/stamina carbon copies of the same sets.
    Eso thrives on its content releases, there is a reason why they try to keep to the same release schedule so rigorously, it drives player numbers when new stuff drops, and increases their revenue not just from dlc/eso + purchases, but also from the crown store just beacuse they have more ppl playing.
    If you look at most western games these days, they all follow this same mantra more or less.

    If you completely kill the interest in new content for a sizeable portion of your playerbase, that would be bad for business.

    This is something that really suprised me recently, but the vast majority of my pvping friends and guildmates actually only bought greymoor for mythics. I was shocked really.

    As for stat scaling causing further imbalance, hardly, if done right that would happen.

    The whole point of the idea is that if you run a procset, you will have lower stats then if you were running a stat based set.
    If scaled properly, this would mean, if you only tried to rely on "free damage" sets, as you put it, they would do far less damage then now.
    Or you would have to get your stat investment elswhere, like giving up sustain or tankiness, basically making you choose.

    Last patch specifically, you could run around with literally just your base 1.4-1-5k wpd and still deliver disgusting dmg combos beacuse of high STATIC damage procsets.

    Again, if scaled properly, you could no longer do that after stat scaling was implemented.


    As for what counts for skilled gameplay, we could run in circles about semantics for a trillion years and not reach an agreement, but if you can stop thinking in hyperboles for just a second:

    Do you really think someone wearing procsets doesnt have to los, heal themselves, block, dodge etc at the right time?
    Come on.
    You could put the most disgusting meta proc set on a clueless pve player and send them to pvp, and they would still get the face smashed in less than a second.
    I spent most of last year literally destroying bad players with full proc builds, meanwhile barely running any myself.
    You still need skill, trust me.

    And yes, easily appliable procsets empowered less skilled players, and it closed the gap(somewhat). And that was ZOS' point actually.

    But anyway, i hope ZOS will actually balance procsets, as opposed outright banning them from pvp.
    Firstmep wrote: »
    And yes, easily appliable procsets empowered less skilled players, and it closed the gap(somewhat). And that was ZOS' point actually.

    Here's a prime example of dumbing the game down for people, thereby reducing the player skill base so that we rely on garbage like proc sets instead of actually becoming better players at the game.

    They release this garbage to keep you farming their latest dungeon then nerf the trash later after it's been exploited and everyone's had their fun. More cheap tricks and pvp suffers at the dungeon delvers expense. I say suffer because then the zerglings come into the pvp arena with that cheap trash on and imagine that they are good when they bag people lol. Get real sir.

    Let me ask you a question if I may:

    How many armor sets do you want or think the game needs?

    A solid core of well balanced stat based sets is fine and allows us to focus on the job at hand, which is improving the player skill base starting with ourselves. As I said before, and this is just my humble opinion, if something a player has equipped is doing damage, healing, buffing or managing resources for them it does not belong in competitive *skill based* gameplay, period. If they can figure out how to make new sets in the future that do not disrupt the integrity of competitive *skill based* gameplay within pvp then great. By the way, I don't know if you're aware of this or not but, pvp stands for player versus player, not player versus proc. If players cannot "git gud" as they say, without their proc sets then there's always dungeons and dragons in pve where they can continue to pretend about their inflated skill level that is actually being carried by their equipment. Maybe go dummy parse or something, I heard that's what top tier pve'ers consider "skilled".

    Seriously though, I do not understand the obsession with proc sets? How does the little green bear popping out of your selene's monster set turn you on so much to the point that your experience will be ruined within eso without your carebear?

    Lastly, ladies and gentlemen, please remember as always, your rights end when they infringe upon others rights and everyone within the realm of pvp playing against another player has the right to fair legitimate competition. Otherwise, what's the point? Let's get rid of the "eso aimbot hax", which is basically what this trash is. If you did not manually activate an ability to damage, heal, buff or manage your resources then you're being carried by whatever it is that did it for you. That should obviously not be allowed in competitive skill based gameplay.
  • Chase0351
    Chase0351
    Lol, I'm a high MMR Xbox NA BGer (solo queue). I've played every (stam) class this patch pretty extensively and Magplar (I also experimented with my new mag DK, but it went embarrassingly poorly). I don't run any proc damage or healing sets, except for a little Selenes on my stamplar and engine guardian on my magplar.

    Ok, I just felt like we had a Rick James, Charlie Murphy, Dave Chappelle moment... E, true Hollywood stories...You start of with your credentials, claim you do not use any proc sets and then end with the proc sets that you actually do use in game to boost your performance. I'm confused.
  • MurderMostFoul
    MurderMostFoul
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    Chase0351 wrote: »
    Lol, I'm a high MMR Xbox NA BGer (solo queue). I've played every (stam) class this patch pretty extensively and Magplar (I also experimented with my new mag DK, but it went embarrassingly poorly). I don't run any proc damage or healing sets, except for a little Selenes on my stamplar and engine guardian on my magplar.

    Ok, I just felt like we had a Rick James, Charlie Murphy, Dave Chappelle moment... E, true Hollywood stories...You start of with your credentials, claim you do not use any proc sets and then end with the proc sets that you actually do use in game to boost your performance. I'm confused.

    That's 2 damage/healing procs on 7 characters. Or 2 sets out of 28 used on my characters (including Mythics).

    These aren't proc builds. Moreover, it's illustrative of the fact that proc damage/healing aren't dominant in BGs like they were last patch. They can be mixed in, avoided, or invested in, but they aren't totally over performing in BGs.
    “There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.”
  • Firstmep
    Firstmep
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    Chase0351 wrote: »
    Firstmep wrote: »
    Please, enough with the hyperboles..

    Proc sets really only got bad last year, they were (for most of the game) a non issue(since the last proc meta).

    No one cared one bit about someone running selene or velidreth and the like.

    Then ZOS buffed most of these sets, introduced new ones that are still broken beyond belief and added an item that buffs their dmg by 25% for virtually no downside.

    This - on top of already existing mechanics, that were already getting out of hand like hp based heals, hp recovery buffed into actual relevance, massive free regen for every etc - shifted the game to a very bad direction in a very short period of time.

    A lot of people have a very bad experience with proc sets recently, so i can understand why most dont even want them in the game anymore, but reality is, theyre part of the game and too much work went into them to just outright remove them.

    And like i already said, we havent gotten any new skills in forever. Also realisticly there is so much the devs can for with new sets if they cant make them do dmg or heal.
    We already have too many sets that more or less do the same thing, or magicka/stamina carbon copies of the same sets.
    Eso thrives on its content releases, there is a reason why they try to keep to the same release schedule so rigorously, it drives player numbers when new stuff drops, and increases their revenue not just from dlc/eso + purchases, but also from the crown store just beacuse they have more ppl playing.
    If you look at most western games these days, they all follow this same mantra more or less.

    If you completely kill the interest in new content for a sizeable portion of your playerbase, that would be bad for business.

    This is something that really suprised me recently, but the vast majority of my pvping friends and guildmates actually only bought greymoor for mythics. I was shocked really.

    As for stat scaling causing further imbalance, hardly, if done right that would happen.

    The whole point of the idea is that if you run a procset, you will have lower stats then if you were running a stat based set.
    If scaled properly, this would mean, if you only tried to rely on "free damage" sets, as you put it, they would do far less damage then now.
    Or you would have to get your stat investment elswhere, like giving up sustain or tankiness, basically making you choose.

    Last patch specifically, you could run around with literally just your base 1.4-1-5k wpd and still deliver disgusting dmg combos beacuse of high STATIC damage procsets.

    Again, if scaled properly, you could no longer do that after stat scaling was implemented.


    As for what counts for skilled gameplay, we could run in circles about semantics for a trillion years and not reach an agreement, but if you can stop thinking in hyperboles for just a second:

    Do you really think someone wearing procsets doesnt have to los, heal themselves, block, dodge etc at the right time?
    Come on.
    You could put the most disgusting meta proc set on a clueless pve player and send them to pvp, and they would still get the face smashed in less than a second.
    I spent most of last year literally destroying bad players with full proc builds, meanwhile barely running any myself.
    You still need skill, trust me.

    And yes, easily appliable procsets empowered less skilled players, and it closed the gap(somewhat). And that was ZOS' point actually.

    But anyway, i hope ZOS will actually balance procsets, as opposed outright banning them from pvp.
    Firstmep wrote: »
    And yes, easily appliable procsets empowered less skilled players, and it closed the gap(somewhat). And that was ZOS' point actually.

    Here's a prime example of dumbing the game down for people, thereby reducing the player skill base so that we rely on garbage like proc sets instead of actually becoming better players at the game.

    They release this garbage to keep you farming their latest dungeon then nerf the trash later after it's been exploited and everyone's had their fun. More cheap tricks and pvp suffers at the dungeon delvers expense. I say suffer because then the zerglings come into the pvp arena with that cheap trash on and imagine that they are good when they bag people lol. Get real sir.

    Let me ask you a question if I may:

    How many armor sets do you want or think the game needs?

    A solid core of well balanced stat based sets is fine and allows us to focus on the job at hand, which is improving the player skill base starting with ourselves. As I said before, and this is just my humble opinion, if something a player has equipped is doing damage, healing, buffing or managing resources for them it does not belong in competitive *skill based* gameplay, period. If they can figure out how to make new sets in the future that do not disrupt the integrity of competitive *skill based* gameplay within pvp then great. By the way, I don't know if you're aware of this or not but, pvp stands for player versus player, not player versus proc. If players cannot "git gud" as they say, without their proc sets then there's always dungeons and dragons in pve where they can continue to pretend about their inflated skill level that is actually being carried by their equipment. Maybe go dummy parse or something, I heard that's what top tier pve'ers consider "skilled".

    Seriously though, I do not understand the obsession with proc sets? How does the little green bear popping out of your selene's monster set turn you on so much to the point that your experience will be ruined within eso without your carebear?

    Lastly, ladies and gentlemen, please remember as always, your rights end when they infringe upon others rights and everyone within the realm of pvp playing against another player has the right to fair legitimate competition. Otherwise, what's the point? Let's get rid of the "eso aimbot hax", which is basically what this trash is. If you did not manually activate an ability to damage, heal, buff or manage your resources then you're being carried by whatever it is that did it for you. That should obviously not be allowed in competitive skill based gameplay.

    I have played this game since launch, and the theorycrafting part of pvp is what I csre about the most.
    Somehow after 6 years, pulling of the same dizzy+db+execute combo I did a million times, just doesn't excite me much.

    If we have had new skill lines added to the game, I'd be fine with just Stat sets, but alas.

    The way I look at procsets, they should really be extra skills you can equip, at the cost of raw power instead of bar space.
    There are a lot of cool interesting combos you can do with certain classes and some proc sets, as opposed to the "triple infused wpd glyph, OMFG 16 BILLION WPNDMGZZZZ" builds..
  • Chilly-McFreeze
    Chilly-McFreeze
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    Chase0351 wrote: »

    That's not competitive skill based gameplay.

    Chase0351 wrote: »

    [...]

    A solid core of well balanced stat based sets is fine and allows us to focus on the job at hand, which is improving the player skill base starting with ourselves. As I said before, and this is just my humble opinion, if something a player has equipped is doing damage, healing, buffing or managing resources for them it does not belong in competitive *skill based* gameplay, period. If they can figure out how to make new sets in the future that do not disrupt the integrity of competitive *skill based* gameplay within pvp then great. By the way, I don't know if you're aware of this or not but, pvp stands for player versus player, not player versus proc. If players cannot "git gud" as they say, without their proc sets then there's always dungeons and dragons in pve where they can continue to pretend about their inflated skill level that is actually being carried by their equipment. Maybe go dummy parse or something, I heard that's what top tier pve'ers consider "skilled".

    [...]

    Lastly, ladies and gentlemen, please remember as always, your rights end when they infringe upon others rights and everyone within the realm of pvp playing against another player has the right to fair legitimate competition.

    Okay OP, thanks for your responses. I've read them all and I would tend to agree if this game had any claim to be a competitive, skill-based PvP game. But it isn't. Making everything even/ most fair/ "competitively balanced" is opening a can of worms.
    The devs once did that and it lead to spreadsheat balancing and balancing skills in a vacuum where almost every outlier has to be hammered back in line, no matter how dependend a class is on said (core) skill. If you'd go all the way you'd need to make every class exactly the same.

    I understand the aversion against mind numbing easy to use, high damage proc sets but they are far too deep intertwined to just disable them and be done with it. Firstmep is on point with his comment. Issues are/ were low opportunity costs and ease of use. Even lowering base damage + letting them crit would mean that you had to build for an offensive stat instead of slotting all procs and go rampage. Plus Malacath would have opportunity costs as well. Applying the usual damage scaling even more so.

    And finally this is an RPG. Every good RPG I remembered had some kind of gear dependecy four your power trip. This game was never ment to be as competitive as Counter Strike or the likes.
  • Firstmep
    Firstmep
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    Chase0351 wrote: »

    That's not competitive skill based gameplay.

    Chase0351 wrote: »

    [...]

    A solid core of well balanced stat based sets is fine and allows us to focus on the job at hand, which is improving the player skill base starting with ourselves. As I said before, and this is just my humble opinion, if something a player has equipped is doing damage, healing, buffing or managing resources for them it does not belong in competitive *skill based* gameplay, period. If they can figure out how to make new sets in the future that do not disrupt the integrity of competitive *skill based* gameplay within pvp then great. By the way, I don't know if you're aware of this or not but, pvp stands for player versus player, not player versus proc. If players cannot "git gud" as they say, without their proc sets then there's always dungeons and dragons in pve where they can continue to pretend about their inflated skill level that is actually being carried by their equipment. Maybe go dummy parse or something, I heard that's what top tier pve'ers consider "skilled".

    [...]

    Lastly, ladies and gentlemen, please remember as always, your rights end when they infringe upon others rights and everyone within the realm of pvp playing against another player has the right to fair legitimate competition.

    Okay OP, thanks for your responses. I've read them all and I would tend to agree if this game had any claim to be a competitive, skill-based PvP game. But it isn't. Making everything even/ most fair/ "competitively balanced" is opening a can of worms.
    The devs once did that and it lead to spreadsheat balancing and balancing skills in a vacuum where almost every outlier has to be hammered back in line, no matter how dependend a class is on said (core) skill. If you'd go all the way you'd need to make every class exactly the same.

    I understand the aversion against mind numbing easy to use, high damage proc sets but they are far too deep intertwined to just disable them and be done with it. Firstmep is on point with his comment. Issues are/ were low opportunity costs and ease of use. Even lowering base damage + letting them crit would mean that you had to build for an offensive stat instead of slotting all procs and go rampage. Plus Malacath would have opportunity costs as well. Applying the usual damage scaling even more so.

    And finally this is an RPG. Every good RPG I remembered had some kind of gear dependecy four your power trip. This game was never ment to be as competitive as Counter Strike or the likes.

    Thank you,
    You explained my point much better then me :).
  • Chase0351
    Chase0351
    Okay OP, thanks for your responses. I've read them all and I would tend to agree if this game had any claim to be a competitive, skill-based PvP game. But it isn't. Making everything even/ most fair/ "competitively balanced" is opening a can of worms.
    The devs once did that and it lead to spreadsheat balancing and balancing skills in a vacuum where almost every outlier has to be hammered back in line, no matter how dependend a class is on said (core) skill. If you'd go all the way you'd need to make every class exactly the same.

    I understand the aversion against mind numbing easy to use, high damage proc sets but they are far too deep intertwined to just disable them and be done with it. Firstmep is on point with his comment. Issues are/ were low opportunity costs and ease of use. Even lowering base damage + letting them crit would mean that you had to build for an offensive stat instead of slotting all procs and go rampage. Plus Malacath would have opportunity costs as well. Applying the usual damage scaling even more so.

    And finally this is an RPG. Every good RPG I remembered had some kind of gear dependecy four your power trip. This game was never ment to be as competitive as Counter Strike or the likes.

    Pvp is a major part of this game, it's built into the core fabric of ESO. It's in the lore, main story lines, etc. You have to pick an alliance when you create a character... Pvp is competitive in nature. One can also still role play whilst adhering to certain guidelines built into the system to facilitate fair competitive skill based gameplay.
    This game was never ment to be as competitive as Counter Strike or the likes.

    ESO pvp is very competitive, there's tournaments for dueling, bg's, etc. Heck, there's even leaderboards for pve content like vMA. How can you say this game is not competitive?
  • Chase0351
    Chase0351
    Proc sets in ESO is the equivalent to Performance Enhancing Drugs(PED's) in sports. AKA steroids...
  • Urzigurumash
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    Chase0351 wrote: »
    Chase0351 wrote: »
    Absolutely no damage, healing, buffs or resource management should ever happen in pvp without the player manually activating an ability to facilitate the action, outside of having a dedicated healer, obviously.

    How do you feel about things other than proc sets which do what you describe, and how do you feel about proc sets which require one or more manual inputs?

    If you mean sets like essence thief that proc off of LA/HA then I am opposed to them. IMHO, if you want to damage your opponent, heal, buff, cleanse yourself or anything else combat related you need to manually bar swap to the respective bar that that skill is on and actually press a button to activate it, whatever it may be. Therein lies the actual skill aspect of it. Performance while under pressure. Pvp cannot be about simply running around light attacking or something mindless like that and having respectable damage done from an outside source(proc sets).

    Lmk if I misunderstood what you were talking about or if that answers your question. I enjoy civil exchanges of differing opinions.

    Thanks for the response too.

    How do you feel about the Undeath passive for Vampire, and how do you feel about the Mark of the Pariah set? How do you feel about the Bloodthirsty trait, and how do you feel about the Kvatch Gladiator set?
    Xbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast
  • Urzigurumash
    Urzigurumash
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    If you're looking at the description of those sets and thinking about their numerical strength before you answer, then perhaps you will agree there is no categorical differentiation between these things, other than one comes from gear, and the other does not. There is only judgment to be made regarding their objective numerical strengths compared to other build elements. They're all build elements with similar characteristics.
    Xbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast
  • Chase0351
    Chase0351
    Okay OP, thanks for your responses. I've read them all and I would tend to agree if this game had any claim to be a competitive, skill-based PvP game. But it isn't. Making everything even/ most fair/ "competitively balanced" is opening a can of worms.

    You know, pvp has been slowly turning into pve in the sense that you end up playing against the game's mechanics instead any real challenge or difficulty. Proc sets are a prime example of this occurring. PVP stands for Player Versus Player, period. Not Player Versus Procs, and definitely not Player Versus Mechanics. Combat in pvp used to be much more fluid and yet it has slowly gotten more clunky over the years.

    With that simple understanding of the definition of Player Versus Player, how can that be anything other than competitive skill based gameplay? If they never wanted a competitive skill based aspect of the game then they would have never ever built pvp so deep into the heart of ESO.

    So, I ask again... What is it about proc sets that turns you on so much that it would ruin your experience in ESO if they went away?

    And again, I'm only talking about pvp. You would still be able to proc the heck out of the npc's till your heart's content. Colors and animations, everywhere!
  • MurderMostFoul
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    If you're looking at the description of those sets and thinking about their numerical strength before you answer, then perhaps you will agree there is no categorical differentiation between these things, other than one comes from gear, and the other does not. There is only judgment to be made regarding their objective numerical strengths compared to other build elements. They're all build elements with similar characteristics.

    I tend to agree.

    I personally feel like damage and healing should only come through skill usage. I think it is better for balance and game design. However, we know that there will be damage and healing proc sets in this game. And while I don't like them, they can be balanced. Last patch was an example as to why I don't like them, they have the potential to have a seriously negative impact on gameplay. This patch however, is an example of how they can be (mostly) brought in line.
    “There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.”
  • Urzigurumash
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    “There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.”

    This is pretty much the summary of my feelings regarding the general odium against all proc sets simply on account of them being proc sets. No sufficient ontology has been explained to me which exhaustively differentiates various proc effects from various other build elements.

    Xbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast
  • propertyOfUndefined
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    I am very much against this form of homogenization. ESO makes up for the fact that you are allowed to use every (passive) skill in game by giving players a lot of sets that can diversify gameplay. In a lot of other MMORPGs, items are purely tor stats, but the level-up progression is what adds diversity by locking you out of certain skill lines when you choose to unlock others. I for one would get bored, lose interest and stop playing.
  • gariondavey
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    As others have said in this thread and in a thread I made with input from a massive high mmr bg guild I'm in...procs are not out of control in bgs anymore.
    Stat builds, mixed builds, proc builds are all viable.

    I love no proc cyro, but I also love ic and bgs as they currently are.
    PC NA @gariondavey, BG + Cyrodiil Focused Since October 2017
    Stamplar (main), Magplar, Magsorc, StamDK, MagDK, Stamblade, Magden, Stamden
  • Chase0351
    Chase0351
    How do you feel about the Undeath passive for Vampire, and how do you feel about the Mark of the Pariah set? How do you feel about the Bloodthirsty trait, and how do you feel about the Kvatch Gladiator set?

    Honestly, the undeath passive isn't even a thing any more. There's a direct counter to vamp's and that's fire. Bloodthirsty is a stat based buff revolving around a percentage. Instead of a flat weapon damage value it will increase based on the targets health, same thing. Honestly I'd prefer the flat damage from weapon damage glyph and infused trait.

    You guys can "what if" me to death, I get it, you really need proc sets to play pvp and remain viable. The colors and animations really tickle your fancy, ok. I guess it is what it is since at the end of the day ZOS has to sell this game to the majority. Like I said many posts prior, at a minimum they need to make it where you can only use one proc set at a time similar to how they setup mythic items to work. And proc sets need to do way less damage than they do, I'm talking like they should account for maximum 5% of the users total damage. Right now proc sets are way above that range in pvp. Now if that sounds unfair or unreasonable, you need to actually learn how to play the game without your PED's, because at the end of the day proc sets are still trash in competitive pvp. So, if you want to wear them it should really be for flavor, not to enhance your performance.

    On a related note, they actually did introduce even more build diversity now by changing the racial passives. Hybrid builds are now becoming more viable so you can cast spells and dual wield at the same time. Sounds strange but hey, tanks use ice staves now which makes no sense either. To build diversity.

    I remember when all the ranged builds were crying about dk wings being op and that was an ability that one had to actually cast. If timed right you could make a magsorc eat his little crystal frag. Then they nerfed that to dumb down the player skill base. But now that the players who believe in skill based gameplay and not gimmicks are rioting over proc sets nothing gets done. They need it for the dumbed down player skill base that they've created. Just look how many players show up to defend proc sets... The proof is in the pudding, no?
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