Group Finder grouping players of disparate levels

Iccotak

Dungeon grouping is a problem in that VERY experienced players are being grouped with novices.

How can anyone properly learn dungeons when high level characters are wiping the floor before others have a chance to participate?

There’s got to be a better way of grouping players based on level on CP.

You can’t group based on “skill” because an experienced player could still play a new character. But even if they’re grouped with players of similar level, it would not be as bad because they could actually be better to show the ropes - like ZOS had hoped experienced players would.

But what do you think?

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Edit:
Point being that I think there is a problem and how the group finder is working out for players.
There is no denying the fact that the finder is often a new players first experience with dungeons AND that there has been reported problems of high level characters rushing low level dungeons ruining the experience for everyone else.

Would it not make sense that high-level players just be grouped together? This way there is less hindrance for the high-level and low level characters.

CrashTest

Group Finder is not the place to learn dungeons. It's simply a tool to find a group to run a dungeon. Nothing more, nothing less.

If anything expects anything beyond this, they are in for disappointment.

If your goal is to actually learn a dungeon, join a guild or make friends with the same goal. Don't expect three strangers from GF to do what you want to do.

redspecter23

The dungeon finder puts people together. It doesn't determine individual wants and needs. Speed, efficiency, casual/hardcore. It does what it's meant to (when it's actually working). If your desires are for something more than 4 people in a group together, the intention is that you form your own group.

Iccotak

CrashTest wrote: »

Group Finder is not the place to learn dungeons. It's simply a tool to find a group to run a dungeon. Nothing more, nothing less.

If anything expects anything beyond this, they are in for disappointment.

If your goal is to actually learn a dungeon, join a guild or make friends with the same goal. Don't expect three strangers from GF to do what you want to do.

The problem being that the group finder is often a New Player’s avenue for their first experience in dungeons.

zvavi

CP doesn't mean anything about player performance.

Iccotak

redspecter23 wrote: »

The dungeon finder puts people together. It doesn't determine individual wants and needs. Speed, efficiency, casual/hardcore. It does what it's meant to (when it's actually working). If your desires are for something more than 4 people in a group together, the intention is that you form your own group.

Which is why I proposed that the group finder groups of players of similar level.

as to help balance out certain players of a very high level vastly outperforming low level characters.

Would it not make more sense that if people of level 50 are going in to grind out early dungeons that they get grouped with people of their similar level?

zvavi

Iccotak wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

The dungeon finder puts people together. It doesn't determine individual wants and needs. Speed, efficiency, casual/hardcore. It does what it's meant to (when it's actually working). If your desires are for something more than 4 people in a group together, the intention is that you form your own group.

Which is why I proposed that the group finder groups of players of similar level.

as to help balance out certain players of a very high level vastly outperforming low level characters.

Would it not make more sense that if people of level 50 are going in to grind out early dungeons that they get grouped with people of their similar level?

Dude, since rework (and before it too tbh) difference between high level CP and low level CP doesn't really matter that much for a build, and I as someone who pugs vDLC a lot, tons of 300 cp's outperformed many 810 cp's, CP level is not a measure for player level.

kargen27

Iccotak wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

The dungeon finder puts people together. It doesn't determine individual wants and needs. Speed, efficiency, casual/hardcore. It does what it's meant to (when it's actually working). If your desires are for something more than 4 people in a group together, the intention is that you form your own group.

Which is why I proposed that the group finder groups of players of similar level.

as to help balance out certain players of a very high level vastly outperforming low level characters.

Would it not make more sense that if people of level 50 are going in to grind out early dungeons that they get grouped with people of their similar level?

The random dungeon finder is in place in part as a way to let people who want to run a specific dungeon fill out their group. It is also a way for players to gain XP and transmute stones. The queues are already long as is. They would be unbearably long if the queue were divided in any way.

Iccotak

zvavi wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

The dungeon finder puts people together. It doesn't determine individual wants and needs. Speed, efficiency, casual/hardcore. It does what it's meant to (when it's actually working). If your desires are for something more than 4 people in a group together, the intention is that you form your own group.

Which is why I proposed that the group finder groups of players of similar level.

as to help balance out certain players of a very high level vastly outperforming low level characters.

Would it not make more sense that if people of level 50 are going in to grind out early dungeons that they get grouped with people of their similar level?

Dude, since rework (and before it too tbh) difference between high level CP and low level CP doesn't really matter that much for a build, and I as someone who pugs vDLC a lot, tons of 300 cp's outperformed many 810 cp's, CP level is not a measure for player level.

Sorry I should clarify. When I say level I mean level 1-50 and not champion point.

Champion points is a different aspect especially after the rework

redspecter23

Iccotak wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

The dungeon finder puts people together. It doesn't determine individual wants and needs. Speed, efficiency, casual/hardcore. It does what it's meant to (when it's actually working). If your desires are for something more than 4 people in a group together, the intention is that you form your own group.

Which is why I proposed that the group finder groups of players of similar level.

as to help balance out certain players of a very high level vastly outperforming low level characters.

Would it not make more sense that if people of level 50 are going in to grind out early dungeons that they get grouped with people of their similar level?

Level won't help you as experienced players roll lowbies all the time and they will still run faster than you want them to. You don't actually want players of similar level. You want players of similar playstyle, regardless of level. You could add some sort of toggle to the queue in order to sort it this way, but as I mentioned, the intention of the devs is if you want anything more that 4 assorted people in a dungeon, you form it yourself from like minded friends, guildmates or even from zone. What you're asking for is the group finder to automate the process of talking to people, getting to know them and forming regular play groups. As mentioned above, once you add more filters, you start to drastically increase queue times.

Iccotak

redspecter23 wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

The dungeon finder puts people together. It doesn't determine individual wants and needs. Speed, efficiency, casual/hardcore. It does what it's meant to (when it's actually working). If your desires are for something more than 4 people in a group together, the intention is that you form your own group.

Which is why I proposed that the group finder groups of players of similar level.

as to help balance out certain players of a very high level vastly outperforming low level characters.

Would it not make more sense that if people of level 50 are going in to grind out early dungeons that they get grouped with people of their similar level?

Level won't help you as experienced players roll lowbies all the time and they will still run faster than you want them to. You don't actually want players of similar level. You want players of similar playstyle, regardless of level. You could add some sort of toggle to the queue in order to sort it this way, but as I mentioned, the intention of the devs is if you want anything more that 4 assorted people in a dungeon, you form it yourself from like minded friends, guildmates or even from zone. What you're asking for is the group finder to automate the process of talking to people, getting to know them and forming regular play groups. As mentioned above, once you add more filters, you start to drastically increase queue times.

I don’t think you can ever really do a filter for play style.

That would just be extremely unreliable and I think would cause more problems than actually solve anything.

preevious

The inexperienced can also ask for tips, and it can be a valuable experience.
I asked someone who was way better than me for tips, way back then, and I have been returning the favor whenever I'm asked by someone less experienced.
(well, in normal, or vBase .. in vDLC, someone who is obviously not ready can irritate me a bit, since I just lost 15 mins in queue, probably for naught)

Group finder is fine.

WiseSky

I love the element of surprise!

Will I get 3 GodSlayers to do fg1 with me ?

Or will I get 3 new players doing DLC dungeon.

I do enjoy carrying the whole group in a dungeon I feel OP!

I also love helping players, explaining them mechanics if they ask.

When players are falling behind I am ok with waiting for them.

If they want to listen to all the npcs dialogue, I tell them about guilds that do that.

It’s not about finding the right group with the random dungeon finder, its about just finding a group.

I learned that I rather do the dungeons myself solo to experience the story only when I find the dungeon on the map.

It’s more about being the right group member then anything else.

Just like dating, only after a few tries you learn what you like

oddbasket

Lowbies play catch up more now because highbies run even faster now in cp2.0

Zer0_CooL

Another complaint with absolute zero idea of a solution. As statet in all the "group finder s**ks" threats before; if you cant handle it, go group with friends and gulkdmates.

Problem solved.

Zodiarkslayer

WiseSky wrote: »

Just like dating, only after a few tries you learn what you like

So thats why it's called the GF experience!

Ahaa☝️😄

Avoranti

Only issue I have with group finder is if you’re a DD it’s takes forever to queue. If you’re a tank or a healer, instant pick up. Only issue I have with who I’m grouped with is fake tanks, fake healers. Like, tired of getting “healers” with bows shooting light attacks and acid spray and not actually playing the role they queued for. Or Tanks who are actually DD’s for pvp and no taunts. And lately, for whatever reason, DD’s using S&B.

Iccotak

Zer0_CooL wrote: »

Another complaint with absolute zero idea of a solution.

As statet in all the "group finder s**ks" threats before; if you cant handle it, go group with friends and gulkdmates.

Problem solved.

Well I wouldn’t say “absolute zero idea“ thing is how I proposed an idea in the OP - and made it a topic of discussion.

And some people have made complaints about the system. So maybe we should examine it and discuss possible solutions.
Rather than being quick to shut down any kind of conversation.

My idea was grouping players based on their level 1-50 rather than just being random.

Iccotak

Avoranti wrote: »

Only issue I have with group finder is if you’re a DD it’s takes forever to queue. If you’re a tank or a healer, instant pick up. Only issue I have with who I’m grouped with is fake tanks, fake healers. Like, tired of getting “healers” with bows shooting light attacks and acid spray and not actually playing the role they queued for. Or Tanks who are actually DD’s for pvp and no taunts. And lately, for whatever reason, DD’s using S&B.

Well why does it happen and why are we generally ok with it?

Reasons
1. Like you said faster queue time
2. Once you’re a powerful DD, lower level dungeons are a cake walk - so taking the tank role isn’t a big deal. You taunt and deal damage.
Overall faster process

Personally a main a tank but those are the reasons I’ve seen people say why they do it.

What I do think though is it as a consequence of building that habit for lower level dungeons is it they bring it over to the higher level dungeons where you actually need a tank.

Perhaps this would be another benefit of grouping players of similar level (1-50) as it encourages people to take up appropriate roles since they can’t have an overpowered lvl 50 DD be fake tank for a group of lower level players in a level 25 dungeon.

So let’s say you’re level 32 and queue for a dungeon.
You find yourself with a group of similar level characters. Meaning that there isn’t a high level DD as fake tank.

Now this does not guarantee that you will never run into fake tanks, but wouldn’t this at least lower the frequency or possibility of it happening compared to now?
——————————————————
We cannot filter for behavior, BUT we could put a filter in place that rewards and encourages a different set of behaviors - in comparison to the current system which incentivizes Speedrunners & Fake Tanks/Healers.
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Edited for spelling

Sarannah

At the moment there is a major issue with speedrunners and fake tanks/healers in normal dungeon, an issue which ZOS should address asap.

phaneub17_ESO

Player 1: Chooses which dungeons they want to do, like yesterday's or today's Pledge.
Player 2: Select Random Dungeon in queue.
Game: Pairs Player 1 and Player 2 together.

That's about it. It doesn't care about your needs, it sees that someone has made a specified queue up so it opens all random queues to that one first to fill it out.

Iccotak

phaneub17_ESO wrote: »

Player 1: Chooses which dungeons they want to do, like yesterday's or today's Pledge.
Player 2: Select Random Dungeon in queue.
Game: Pairs Player 1 and Player 2 together.

That's about it. It doesn't care about your needs, it sees that someone has made a specified queue up so it opens all random queues to that one first to fill it out.

Like I said

We cannot filter for behavior, BUT we could put a filter in place that rewards and encourages a different set of behaviors like teamwork - in comparison to the current system, which incentivizes Speedrunners & Fake Tanks/Healers.

Chaos2088

Kinda of a good thing to throw players of all lvl's together in an instance. Been playing for a long time and met some good friends doing random dungeons where ive helped them or they helpd me

davidtk

I am sorry but i think i dont get the point about levels...
Yes there can be problem that some 1200CP get to group with NEW lvl35...
But where is the problem when 1200CP get to group lvl45 with 800CP?
On old CP system was noticeable diference between 0CP lvl45 and 810CP lvl45.
I think that is still same so lvl45 with CPs is definitely more powerfull than lvl45 without CPs?
Wife has yesterday experience with some jerk (about 600CP) in group finder dungeon... (She leveling some alt and she have about 750CPs but was there with lvl45 [with cps])... I only knows that he start whispering her some *** and he left the group.
Btw fake healers upsets me higly more than fake tanks tbh...

zaria

phaneub17_ESO wrote: »

Player 1: Chooses which dungeons they want to do, like yesterday's or today's Pledge.
Player 2: Select Random Dungeon in queue.
Game: Pairs Player 1 and Player 2 together.

That's about it. It doesn't care about your needs, it sees that someone has made a specified queue up so it opens all random queues to that one first to fill it out.

This, now exception is if an 4 man group queue for random, then its random with limits only being level and who dlc all have.

sharpshooter2342

Iccotak wrote: »

Avoranti wrote: »

Only issue I have with group finder is if you’re a DD it’s takes forever to queue. If you’re a tank or a healer, instant pick up. Only issue I have with who I’m grouped with is fake tanks, fake healers. Like, tired of getting “healers” with bows shooting light attacks and acid spray and not actually playing the role they queued for. Or Tanks who are actually DD’s for pvp and no taunts. And lately, for whatever reason, DD’s using S&B.

Well why does it happen and why are we generally ok with it?

Reasons
1. Like you said faster queue time
2. Once you’re a powerful DD, lower level dungeons are a cake walk - so taking the tank role isn’t a big deal. You taunt and deal damage.
Overall faster process

Personally a main a tank but those are the reasons I’ve seen people say why they do it.

What I do think though is it as a consequence of building that habit for lower level dungeons is it they bring it over to the higher level dungeons where you actually need a tank.

Perhaps this would be another benefit of grouping players of similar level (1-50) as it encourages people to take up appropriate roles since they can’t have an overpowered lvl 50 DD be fake tank for a group of lower level players in a level 25 dungeon.

So let’s say you’re level 32 and queue for a dungeon.
You find yourself with a group of similar level characters. Meaning that there isn’t a high level DD as fake tank.

Now this does not guarantee that you will never run into fake tanks, but wouldn’t this at least lower the frequency or possibility of it happening compared to now?
——————————————————
We cannot filter for behavior, BUT we could put a filter in place that rewards and encourages a different set of behaviors - in comparison to the current system which incentivizes Speedrunners & Fake Tanks/Healers.
——————————————————
Edited for spelling

There's 1 problem with your idea though. What's stopping me from making a new character and being under level 50 I am still using all of my 1800 plus cp on that brand new level 10 toon. A better way to fix the problem is to give the option to que for dungeons with or without cp enabled. There would be longer que times for sure but some of us with higher cp would probably actually enjoy the challenge of doing stuff with cp disabled if we choose. To be quite honest most vet base game dungeons we don't even need a tank or healer to do them because they have all been nerfed so bad over the years for players who lack the skill to do them in a timely manner. Your best bet is make some friends to do stuff with.

Iccotak

To be clear I don’t have issues playing dungeons generally speaking.

I mainly play a tank, my queue times and my play experiences are just fine.

I offered a idea as a possible solution to a problem that people on the forums have complained about.

Dolphinsgal

Avoranti wrote: »

Only issue I have with group finder is if you’re a DD it’s takes forever to queue. If you’re a tank or a healer, instant pick up. Only issue I have with who I’m grouped with is fake tanks, fake healers. Like, tired of getting “healers” with bows shooting light attacks and acid spray and not actually playing the role they queued for. Or Tanks who are actually DD’s for pvp and no taunts. And lately, for whatever reason, DD’s using S&B.

Don't discount someone who has a bow as a fake healer. I run a stamden healer I have a staff and bow build for it. I do get frustrated with the fake tanks and healers as well, but please don't automatically think someone with something other than staffs is a fake healer. My other healers run either 2 staffs or staff and s&b, I will say none have "meta" gear or builds as I hate following meta builds as they don't work for everyone.

allhailskippy

Normal dungeons don't teach you the dungeon mechanics like 99% of the time anyways.

If you want to actually learn the mechanics, you need to be in vet, and there are only > level 50 players in vet. Problem solved.

If you are trying to go slow and steady in a normal dungeon, bring your friends. They'll be happy to go at whatever pace you agree on. Dungeon finder is a crapshoot. You get paired with... whoever. Sometimes that's great, sometimes not so much. Such is PUG life.

Zer0_CooL

Iccotak wrote: »

...
My idea was grouping players based on their level 1-50 rather than just being random.

Further sorting would lead to even longer queue times while the benefit is rather small. Arguably not existent.

kargen27

Iccotak wrote: »

Avoranti wrote: »

Only issue I have with group finder is if you’re a DD it’s takes forever to queue. If you’re a tank or a healer, instant pick up. Only issue I have with who I’m grouped with is fake tanks, fake healers. Like, tired of getting “healers” with bows shooting light attacks and acid spray and not actually playing the role they queued for. Or Tanks who are actually DD’s for pvp and no taunts. And lately, for whatever reason, DD’s using S&B.

So let’s say you’re level 32 and queue for a dungeon.
You find yourself with a group of similar level characters. Meaning that there isn’t a high level DD as fake tank.

Now this does not guarantee that you will never run into fake tanks, but wouldn’t this at least lower the frequency or possibility of it happening compared to now?
——————————————————
We cannot filter for behavior, BUT we could put a filter in place that rewards and encourages a different set of behaviors - in comparison to the current system which incentivizes Speedrunners & Fake Tanks/Healers.
——————————————————
Edited for spelling

I'm thinking it would make the problem worse. The queue times are going to be longer. Maybe much longer depending on the disparity of experience allowed. Players would know going in they are not going to get one of the more difficult dungeons based on their level. Wanting to get in they are going to fake a role to jump ahead in the queue. There are plenty of low level players that only care about the extra XP from the random run and they will be just as apt to rush to the end as any other player.