Make class dots highly influenced by stats.

Sheuib

As I explained in another thread class dots are significantly underpowered when compared to proc sets. It truly makes a dot build pointless to use a stat set vs a proc set.

Take for instance the following comparison. I used the same gear for both sets of numbers for class dots. I just changed mundus and one CP blue buff.

Spell damage 3538
Magicka 33644

Vampires bane is 12312 over 16 seconds in a PVP setup. That is 769.5 dps.
Degeneration is 11172 over 10 seconds. That is 1117.2 dps.
Solar barrage is 2179 every 2 seconds. That is 1089.5 dps. (That is the lesser used morph of solar flare.)

Then I change the numbers a little.
Spell damage 3847
Magicka 33644

Vampires bane is 13248 over 16 seconds in a PVP setup. That is 828 dps.
Degeneration is 12024 over 10 seconds. That is 1202.4 dps.
Solar barrage is 2345 every 2 seconds. That is 1172.5 dps.

So for a 309 increase in spell damage I basically get a 226.7 increase in dps if I use all three of those dots.
Compare those dots to what I can use from a proc set.

Grothdarr 2124 a second.
Auroran 1353 every 0.5 seconds. That is 2706 dps.
Unleashed 19734 over 10 seconds. That is 1973.4 dps.
Venomous smite 2241 a second.
Viper 6400 over 4 seconds. That is 1600 dps. The closest one to any class dot and still better.

So, if I increased my spell damage by 1000 by using a stat set I would only get a 734 increase in dps. That doesn't even equal one proc set.
For a dot build it would be insane to use stat sets vs proc sets. You just can't make up the damage loss with stats.

Even if you had a 100% crit rating that still would not even out. It's only a 340 dps increase for the extra 309 spell damage and 1100 dps increase for the extra 1000 spell damage. Still doesn't compare to a proc set.

I know people don't want to see class dots made really strong because the one patch we did have that everyone lost their mind. But, could we at least make it that using a stat set brings class dots up to the same level of dps as proc sets? Is that to much to ask for? At least class dots have a counter when you slot a purge.

I think if you made class dots highly influenced by stats it would make it a real choice between a class dot vs a proc dot. Make it so when someone has proc sets on they get the numbers they have above. However when they put on stat sets they should be getting dots that compare to proc dot dps plus the above class dot dps. Otherwise dots builds are always going to use proc sets and burst builds are always going to use stat sets. And, everyone will continue to complain that the other build is not balanced, cheap no skill damage, etc.

Wing

your logic fails in the face of their generalized statistical value of damage over time standards and any notable deviation from such would result in a rule breaker of a skill that would require immediate overview and readjustment of said skills values back into the aforementioned damage over time standards.

we might be able to slip you a slight buff in damage bringing dps up from 769.5 to 774.5. this will be in line with our damage over time standards.

Sheuib

Wing wrote: »

your logic fails in the face of their generalized statistical value of damage over time standards and any notable deviation from such would result in a rule breaker of a skill that would require immediate overview and readjustment of said skills values back into the aforementioned damage over time standards.

we might be able to slip you a slight buff in damage bringing dps up from 769.5 to 774.5. this will be in line with our damage over time standards.

LOL. The standard needs to change. And, obviously the class dot standard is not in line with the proc dot standard. Sure you can make the claim that not all procs are 100% uptime but the most popular ones are 100% uptime.

Vermintide

Remember damage is scaled from both spell damage and max resources. Have you tried pumping up that low mag pool and seeing what it does?

And to think, a couple years ago people were screaming about the DOT meta because of some change or other I can't even remember.

Sanguinor2

Vermintide wrote: »

Remember damage is scaled from both spell damage and max resources. Have you tried pumping up that low mag pool and seeing what it does?

And to think, a couple years ago people were screaming about the DOT meta because of some change or other I can't even remember.

To be fair, the dot changes were to such a degree that slotting a spammable was a damage loss, in pve people were even running builds with 9 dots and 1 selfbuff and in pvp you could be very succesfull with a build slotting only dots and heals. There is something between dots are so strong that nothing comes close and dots are weaker than any random proc set.

Fawn4287

The problem you are experiencing is just the entirety of damage stacking in ESO in general, stacking damage is just nowhere near effective enough, especially compared to someone building for tankyness or stacking proc sets. someone can throw on balorgh and malacath with the rest resistance sets and get the same effective damage output as someome in 2, 5 piece stat based damage sets. Even during no proc cyrodil I was running sprig/hulking bow backbar getting absolutely shredded by nightblades and magsorcs even 1 on 1, swap hulking for impreg, bow for a board and gained a ridiculous boost in tankyness and survivability for unnoticed change in damage.

Waffennacht

Another way to look at it is that stat sets dont provide enough of a buff to increase the attacks to the degree of damage that proc sets bring.

Xargas13

I too don't want dots to be OP as they were, but at least make them valuable, right now if someone dots you, you can just ignore it, as they do so little damage you barely notice the difference.

Udrath

Problem is you’re playing a magplar. 😂 jk I play one too. I keep that crap off my bars though and just use spell power pots. I don’t think their worth slotting just to use certain potions, over purifying light in my opinion, as they do crap damage and everyone purges/suppresses them except sorcerers.

techyeshic

Waffennacht wrote: »

Another way to look at it is that stat sets dont provide enough of a buff to increase the attacks to the degree of damage that proc sets bring.

This is pretty much it. A stat set at best is what? 750 damage on the 5 piece alchemist? Can't remember after nerfs and everything So if a proc is 2k DPS on top of what you already are doing, it never gets close as far as what you are getting from Alch would be 1500 if you weave and ability perfectly.

This is more why Procs are overpowered though, as opposed to DOTs being weak. Some DOTs could use a little more base damage to be useful.

Faded

Wing wrote: »

your logic fails in the face of their generalized statistical value of damage over time standards and any notable deviation from such would result in a rule breaker of a skill that would require immediate overview and readjustment of said skills values back into the aforementioned damage over time standards.

we might be able to slip you a slight buff in damage bringing dps up from 769.5 to 774.5. this will be in line with our damage over time standards.

Nailed it.

NordSwordnBoard

Just make a new proc set!

Dagon's Jealousy:
-mag recovery
-stam recovery
-weapon and spell damage
-Boosts Dot damage by 30% because why should Malacath get all the glory? Percentage boosts are OK if they're for sale.

WoppaBoem

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

Just make a new proc set!

Dagon's Jealousy:
-mag recovery
-stam recovery
-weapon and spell damage
-Boosts Dot damage by 30% because why should Malacath get all the glory? Percentage boosts are OK if they're for sale.

Deadly Strike

2 items: Adds 129 Weapon Damage
3 items: Adds 657 Weapon Critical
4 items: Adds 129 Weapon Damage
5 items: Increase the damage your Physical, Bleed, Poison, and Disease Damage over time and channeled abilities do by 20%.

ZOS should just make a mag version of this set and be done with it. DOTS have never been viable in PVP except for one stupid patch that was so skill less. You got dotted up and just died, only counter was purge but while being outnumbered that was even useless they just kept coming in.

DOTS are not supposed to be viable as a play style. Its all about being mixed and balanced. Just dotting someone up and watch them die is the most horrible meta and playstyle I can imagine.

WoppaBoem

I want to add it makes sense proc sets DOTS are stronger. As the 5 piece bonus only applies to that single dot. However if you have really strong class dots, the sets you used to get that dmg also increases you direct dmg, your heals, you ultimates. This is massive difference.

If you have what you say, players that will not only want to play dot like you will come up with very hard hitting but also huge pressure build via direct dmg and dmg over time.

Joy_Division

Udrath wrote: »

Problem is you’re playing a magplar. 😂 jk I play one too. I keep that crap off my bars though and just use spell power pots. I don’t think their worth slotting just to use certain potions, over purifying light in my opinion, as they do crap damage and everyone purges/suppresses them except sorcerers.

When Purifying Light is the "good" skill you prioritize over others, you know you're class is in sad shape.

ealdwin

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Vermintide wrote: »

Remember damage is scaled from both spell damage and max resources. Have you tried pumping up that low mag pool and seeing what it does?

And to think, a couple years ago people were screaming about the DOT meta because of some change or other I can't even remember.

To be fair, the dot changes were to such a degree that slotting a spammable was a damage loss, in pve people were even running builds with 9 dots and 1 selfbuff and in pvp you could be very succesfull with a build slotting only dots and heals. There is something between dots are so strong that nothing comes close and dots are weaker than any random proc set.

I for one would love to see the day that both high burst/direct damage abilities builds and multi-dot abilities pressure builds could perform with similar viability in both PVE and PVP. It would certainly open up a bit more diversity in skill layouts and allow players to shift if they got tired of one style of combat after a while.

I was kind of hoping that the "horizontal progression" that CP 2.0 was going for would open some options for experimenting with different off-meta builds (such as DoT builds). But, it doesn't appear like that currently is the case.

Firstmep

Sheuib wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

your logic fails in the face of their generalized statistical value of damage over time standards and any notable deviation from such would result in a rule breaker of a skill that would require immediate overview and readjustment of said skills values back into the aforementioned damage over time standards.

we might be able to slip you a slight buff in damage bringing dps up from 769.5 to 774.5. this will be in line with our damage over time standards.

LOL. The standard needs to change. And, obviously the class dot standard is not in line with the proc dot standard. Sure you can make the claim that not all procs are 100% uptime but the most popular ones are 100% uptime.

This.
If they want to standardize, fine, but be ready to update those standards.

TheBonesXXX

Because lining burst, is "skill" and pressure makes people QQ.

Even though lining burst is a simplistic and basic function.

StaticWave

Burst builds are very strong yes, but they are also very predictable and 1 well timed block can negate 80% of their damage. The only exception for that is when a burst build has so much uptime that it becomes a pressure build, e.g Magsorcs.

The issue with DoTs is how much constant pressure they can put out, and they don't really have counterplays except for purging or building more heals. If DoTs were buffed every class without a purge or good healing would suffer.

The best builds right now combines both DoTs and direct dmg (how surprising). So you have 3-4 DoTs ticking that keep your opponents from gaining any health with their HoTs, and your direct dmg spammable/burst can now freely do damage. This kind of playstyle is actually oppressive and unhealthy for the game because it reduces the fight to a build difference, and not skill difference. Stamdks with malacath and master dw is a prime example of this playstyle.

How do you make class dots stronger without turning into broken mechanics? There are 2 simple fixes:

1) Make HoT effects stronger to counter stronger DoTs
2) Make the alliance purge ability cheaper so every class has access to a good purge

Basically, give people an easier access to counterplay so the fight doesn't always end up one sided in favor or DoT builds

Joy_Division

StaticWave wrote: »

Burst builds are very strong yes, but they are also very predictable and 1 well timed block can negate 80% of their damage. The only exception for that is when a burst build has so much uptime that it becomes a pressure build, e.g Magsorcs.

The issue with DoTs is how much constant pressure they can put out, and they don't really have counterplays except for purging or building more heals. If DoTs were buffed every class without a purge or good healing would suffer.

The best builds right now combines both DoTs and direct dmg (how surprising). So you have 3-4 DoTs ticking that keep your opponents from gaining any health with their HoTs, and your direct dmg spammable/burst can now freely do damage. This kind of playstyle is actually oppressive and unhealthy for the game because it reduces the fight to a build difference, and not skill difference. Stamdks with malacath and master dw is a prime example of this playstyle.

How do you make class dots stronger without turning into broken mechanics? There are 2 simple fixes:

1) Make HoT effects stronger to counter stronger DoTs
2) Make the alliance purge ability cheaper so every class has access to a good purge

Basically, give people an easier access to counterplay so the fight doesn't always end up one sided in favor or DoT builds

I dont agree with this assessment.

Good players accompany their burst with CC. How many 1vX clips or top 5 fights of the week are dots based/centric?. Burst has always been better, more reliable, and allowed players to simply do and be capable of more.

DOTs are not nearly as oppressive, certainly not in the way that a 15K merciless hitting you after an incap stun. It's just a matter of keeping up Hots and as it is half the classes in the game have purge now and two that dont have strong options to reset fights.

Healing is already really strong and we're already past the point of taking what was once the central templar identity and just handing it out willly nilly to the two perpetual top tier classes behind a pay wall, so you're proposal will just widen the already wide gap.

TheBonesXXX

Joy_Division wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Burst builds are very strong yes, but they are also very predictable and 1 well timed block can negate 80% of their damage. The only exception for that is when a burst build has so much uptime that it becomes a pressure build, e.g Magsorcs.

The issue with DoTs is how much constant pressure they can put out, and they don't really have counterplays except for purging or building more heals. If DoTs were buffed every class without a purge or good healing would suffer.

The best builds right now combines both DoTs and direct dmg (how surprising). So you have 3-4 DoTs ticking that keep your opponents from gaining any health with their HoTs, and your direct dmg spammable/burst can now freely do damage. This kind of playstyle is actually oppressive and unhealthy for the game because it reduces the fight to a build difference, and not skill difference. Stamdks with malacath and master dw is a prime example of this playstyle.

How do you make class dots stronger without turning into broken mechanics? There are 2 simple fixes:

1) Make HoT effects stronger to counter stronger DoTs
2) Make the alliance purge ability cheaper so every class has access to a good purge

Basically, give people an easier access to counterplay so the fight doesn't always end up one sided in favor or DoT builds

I dont agree with this assessment.

Good players accompany their burst with CC. How many 1vX clips or top 5 fights of the week are dots based/centric?. Burst has always been better, more reliable, and allowed players to simply do and be capable of more.

DOTs are not nearly as oppressive, certainly not in the way that a 15K merciless hitting you after an incap stun. It's just a matter of keeping up Hots and as it is half the classes in the game have purge now and two that dont have strong options to reset fights.

Healing is already really strong and we're already past the point of taking what was once the central templar identity and just handing it out willly nilly to the two perpetual top tier classes behind a pay wall, so you're proposal will just widen the already wide gap.

Joy gave the proper assessment.

Joy_Division wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Burst builds are very strong yes, but they are also very predictable and 1 well timed block can negate 80% of their damage. The only exception for that is when a burst build has so much uptime that it becomes a pressure build, e.g Magsorcs.

The issue with DoTs is how much constant pressure they can put out, and they don't really have counterplays except for purging or building more heals. If DoTs were buffed every class without a purge or good healing would suffer.

The best builds right now combines both DoTs and direct dmg (how surprising). So you have 3-4 DoTs ticking that keep your opponents from gaining any health with their HoTs, and your direct dmg spammable/burst can now freely do damage. This kind of playstyle is actually oppressive and unhealthy for the game because it reduces the fight to a build difference, and not skill difference. Stamdks with malacath and master dw is a prime example of this playstyle.

How do you make class dots stronger without turning into broken mechanics? There are 2 simple fixes:

1) Make HoT effects stronger to counter stronger DoTs
2) Make the alliance purge ability cheaper so every class has access to a good purge

Basically, give people an easier access to counterplay so the fight doesn't always end up one sided in favor or DoT builds

I dont agree with this assessment.

Good players accompany their burst with CC. How many 1vX clips or top 5 fights of the week are dots based/centric?. Burst has always been better, more reliable, and allowed players to simply do and be capable of more.

DOTs are not nearly as oppressive, certainly not in the way that a 15K merciless hitting you after an incap stun. It's just a matter of keeping up Hots and as it is half the classes in the game have purge now and two that dont have strong options to reset fights.

Healing is already really strong and we're already past the point of taking what was once the central templar identity and just handing it out willly nilly to the two perpetual top tier classes behind a pay wall, so you're proposal will just widen the already wide gap.

What Joy said is really all there is too it. Burst has been superior to pressure builds.

Firstmep

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Burst builds are very strong yes, but they are also very predictable and 1 well timed block can negate 80% of their damage. The only exception for that is when a burst build has so much uptime that it becomes a pressure build, e.g Magsorcs.

The issue with DoTs is how much constant pressure they can put out, and they don't really have counterplays except for purging or building more heals. If DoTs were buffed every class without a purge or good healing would suffer.

The best builds right now combines both DoTs and direct dmg (how surprising). So you have 3-4 DoTs ticking that keep your opponents from gaining any health with their HoTs, and your direct dmg spammable/burst can now freely do damage. This kind of playstyle is actually oppressive and unhealthy for the game because it reduces the fight to a build difference, and not skill difference. Stamdks with malacath and master dw is a prime example of this playstyle.

How do you make class dots stronger without turning into broken mechanics? There are 2 simple fixes:

1) Make HoT effects stronger to counter stronger DoTs
2) Make the alliance purge ability cheaper so every class has access to a good purge

Basically, give people an easier access to counterplay so the fight doesn't always end up one sided in favor or DoT builds

I dont agree with this assessment.

Good players accompany their burst with CC. How many 1vX clips or top 5 fights of the week are dots based/centric?. Burst has always been better, more reliable, and allowed players to simply do and be capable of more.

DOTs are not nearly as oppressive, certainly not in the way that a 15K merciless hitting you after an incap stun. It's just a matter of keeping up Hots and as it is half the classes in the game have purge now and two that dont have strong options to reset fights.

Healing is already really strong and we're already past the point of taking what was once the central templar identity and just handing it out willly nilly to the two perpetual top tier classes behind a pay wall, so you're proposal will just widen the already wide gap.

Joy gave the proper assessment.

Joy_Division wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Burst builds are very strong yes, but they are also very predictable and 1 well timed block can negate 80% of their damage. The only exception for that is when a burst build has so much uptime that it becomes a pressure build, e.g Magsorcs.

The issue with DoTs is how much constant pressure they can put out, and they don't really have counterplays except for purging or building more heals. If DoTs were buffed every class without a purge or good healing would suffer.

The best builds right now combines both DoTs and direct dmg (how surprising). So you have 3-4 DoTs ticking that keep your opponents from gaining any health with their HoTs, and your direct dmg spammable/burst can now freely do damage. This kind of playstyle is actually oppressive and unhealthy for the game because it reduces the fight to a build difference, and not skill difference. Stamdks with malacath and master dw is a prime example of this playstyle.

How do you make class dots stronger without turning into broken mechanics? There are 2 simple fixes:

1) Make HoT effects stronger to counter stronger DoTs
2) Make the alliance purge ability cheaper so every class has access to a good purge

Basically, give people an easier access to counterplay so the fight doesn't always end up one sided in favor or DoT builds

I dont agree with this assessment.

Good players accompany their burst with CC. How many 1vX clips or top 5 fights of the week are dots based/centric?. Burst has always been better, more reliable, and allowed players to simply do and be capable of more.

DOTs are not nearly as oppressive, certainly not in the way that a 15K merciless hitting you after an incap stun. It's just a matter of keeping up Hots and as it is half the classes in the game have purge now and two that dont have strong options to reset fights.

Healing is already really strong and we're already past the point of taking what was once the central templar identity and just handing it out willly nilly to the two perpetual top tier classes behind a pay wall, so you're proposal will just widen the already wide gap.

What Joy said is really all there is too it. Burst has been superior to pressure builds.

Yes 100%.
Lets not base our dot experience on busted procsets, most dot skills are underwhelming.
Healing has been rebuffed this patch(and beyond) what it was before we went to 60%.
You really have to go all out on dots rn to be able to pressure people, meaning investing multiple skills and sets, and aganist tanky targets it still won't be enough without procs.
My stamplar can rock deadly strike and rending slashes still will barely tickle ppl without master dw.
I would be happy if we had more sets like deadly strike that would force us to invest our gear heavily into dots, but then the payoff has to be there too.

TheBonesXXX

Firstmep wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Burst builds are very strong yes, but they are also very predictable and 1 well timed block can negate 80% of their damage. The only exception for that is when a burst build has so much uptime that it becomes a pressure build, e.g Magsorcs.

The issue with DoTs is how much constant pressure they can put out, and they don't really have counterplays except for purging or building more heals. If DoTs were buffed every class without a purge or good healing would suffer.

The best builds right now combines both DoTs and direct dmg (how surprising). So you have 3-4 DoTs ticking that keep your opponents from gaining any health with their HoTs, and your direct dmg spammable/burst can now freely do damage. This kind of playstyle is actually oppressive and unhealthy for the game because it reduces the fight to a build difference, and not skill difference. Stamdks with malacath and master dw is a prime example of this playstyle.

How do you make class dots stronger without turning into broken mechanics? There are 2 simple fixes:

1) Make HoT effects stronger to counter stronger DoTs
2) Make the alliance purge ability cheaper so every class has access to a good purge

Basically, give people an easier access to counterplay so the fight doesn't always end up one sided in favor or DoT builds

I dont agree with this assessment.

Good players accompany their burst with CC. How many 1vX clips or top 5 fights of the week are dots based/centric?. Burst has always been better, more reliable, and allowed players to simply do and be capable of more.

DOTs are not nearly as oppressive, certainly not in the way that a 15K merciless hitting you after an incap stun. It's just a matter of keeping up Hots and as it is half the classes in the game have purge now and two that dont have strong options to reset fights.

Healing is already really strong and we're already past the point of taking what was once the central templar identity and just handing it out willly nilly to the two perpetual top tier classes behind a pay wall, so you're proposal will just widen the already wide gap.

Joy gave the proper assessment.

Joy_Division wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Burst builds are very strong yes, but they are also very predictable and 1 well timed block can negate 80% of their damage. The only exception for that is when a burst build has so much uptime that it becomes a pressure build, e.g Magsorcs.

The issue with DoTs is how much constant pressure they can put out, and they don't really have counterplays except for purging or building more heals. If DoTs were buffed every class without a purge or good healing would suffer.

The best builds right now combines both DoTs and direct dmg (how surprising). So you have 3-4 DoTs ticking that keep your opponents from gaining any health with their HoTs, and your direct dmg spammable/burst can now freely do damage. This kind of playstyle is actually oppressive and unhealthy for the game because it reduces the fight to a build difference, and not skill difference. Stamdks with malacath and master dw is a prime example of this playstyle.

How do you make class dots stronger without turning into broken mechanics? There are 2 simple fixes:

1) Make HoT effects stronger to counter stronger DoTs
2) Make the alliance purge ability cheaper so every class has access to a good purge

Basically, give people an easier access to counterplay so the fight doesn't always end up one sided in favor or DoT builds

I dont agree with this assessment.

Good players accompany their burst with CC. How many 1vX clips or top 5 fights of the week are dots based/centric?. Burst has always been better, more reliable, and allowed players to simply do and be capable of more.

DOTs are not nearly as oppressive, certainly not in the way that a 15K merciless hitting you after an incap stun. It's just a matter of keeping up Hots and as it is half the classes in the game have purge now and two that dont have strong options to reset fights.

Healing is already really strong and we're already past the point of taking what was once the central templar identity and just handing it out willly nilly to the two perpetual top tier classes behind a pay wall, so you're proposal will just widen the already wide gap.

What Joy said is really all there is too it. Burst has been superior to pressure builds.

Yes 100%.
Lets not base our dot experience on busted procsets, most dot skills are underwhelming.
Healing has been rebuffed this patch(and beyond) what it was before we went to 60%.
You really have to go all out on dots rn to be able to pressure people, meaning investing multiple skills and sets, and aganist tanky targets it still won't be enough without procs.
My stamplar can rock deadly strike and rending slashes still will barely tickle ppl without master dw.
I would be happy if we had more sets like deadly strike that would force us to invest our gear heavily into dots, but then the payoff has to be there too.

A big problem we face as pressure players is that other players don't know how to respond to pressure, so they assume it's overpowered, cry nerf.

When in reality Jabs and Rapids are skills that are harder to land consistently and are channeled. There's no weaving other dots in them, there's just presetting dots then applying the main spammable.

Where as lining burst is instantaneous and a lot simpler to do.

I think Rapids needs an extra something to help it land it's damage, but not guaranteed or become another version of jobs.

I don't like an AoE cone, that's a nerf not a buff.

Things like Bound Armaments are a channel too and can't always be used with rapids, can open and light weave into rapids to make it an extended version. But can't use it with rapids.

And dots are just a burst heal and cleanse away from uselessness.

StaticWave

Joy_Division wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Burst builds are very strong yes, but they are also very predictable and 1 well timed block can negate 80% of their damage. The only exception for that is when a burst build has so much uptime that it becomes a pressure build, e.g Magsorcs.

The issue with DoTs is how much constant pressure they can put out, and they don't really have counterplays except for purging or building more heals. If DoTs were buffed every class without a purge or good healing would suffer.

The best builds right now combines both DoTs and direct dmg (how surprising). So you have 3-4 DoTs ticking that keep your opponents from gaining any health with their HoTs, and your direct dmg spammable/burst can now freely do damage. This kind of playstyle is actually oppressive and unhealthy for the game because it reduces the fight to a build difference, and not skill difference. Stamdks with malacath and master dw is a prime example of this playstyle.

How do you make class dots stronger without turning into broken mechanics? There are 2 simple fixes:

1) Make HoT effects stronger to counter stronger DoTs
2) Make the alliance purge ability cheaper so every class has access to a good purge

Basically, give people an easier access to counterplay so the fight doesn't always end up one sided in favor or DoT builds

I dont agree with this assessment.

Good players accompany their burst with CC. How many 1vX clips or top 5 fights of the week are dots based/centric?. Burst has always been better, more reliable, and allowed players to simply do and be capable of more.

DOTs are not nearly as oppressive, certainly not in the way that a 15K merciless hitting you after an incap stun. It's just a matter of keeping up Hots and as it is half the classes in the game have purge now and two that dont have strong options to reset fights.

Healing is already really strong and we're already past the point of taking what was once the central templar identity and just handing it out willly nilly to the two perpetual top tier classes behind a pay wall, so you're proposal will just widen the already wide gap.

Using 1vX as a base for your argument isn't very strong, considering 1vX clips are mostly comprised of fighting bad players who don't block any easily anticipated combo.

I read a forum post complaining about 1 shot stamsorcs, then I went into BGs fighting those stamsorcs. All I did was hold block, and watch them struggling to drop my health past 80%. I can't do that against DoTs because they ignore blocking, rolling, or kiting. DoTs are oppressive because they reduce the fight to a purge or healing game.

Nbs have the highest burst on paper, but in practice it's so predictable and easy to dodge. If you die to a 15k merciless, i think we all know that isn't an issue of burst now is it? Since you mentioned templar, I'm guessing you're a templar main, which means you already have the means to counter DoTs in the first place. I don't play templar, and I can say for a fact that not every class has the same luxury to purge.

Don't believe me? Hop on any class that isn't a necro, warden, or templar, and try to fight a malacath dot dk, while also in a reasonable build that does dmg. I'll wait for your conclusion.

Ragnaroek93

Good thread, dot damage really needs to be buffed, slotting dots is simply not worth it most of the time (looking at poison injection for example, the only time I slot it is when I'm memeing...). Every good build usually has access to both, dot damage and some form of pressure (doesn't even need to be dot damage but some tools which can create pressure, a strong execute, defile, something which counters dodge/block can work as well for example).

Joy_Division wrote: »

Healing is already really strong and we're already past the point of taking what was once the central templar identity and just handing it out willly nilly to the two perpetual top tier classes behind a pay wall, so you're proposal will just widen the already wide gap.

That can be said about almost every vanilla class to be honest (with the exception of magsorc which is the only vanilla class which is in a strong spot imo). Classes used to have counters and strong toolkits which allowed them to kill stuff but because of constant complaining from crybabies who think that dieing in a PvP environment is an unintended mechanic all classes and dots except stamden/stamcro got pruned down so much that they don't work without stacking proc sets anymore. Before this moronic class audit I was able to create pressure because I had Poison Injection (which function as a second execute) and defile on my nb which allowed me to finish off people and punish mistakes. Now I have two burst skills which have a cast time/travel time and don't even hit them after using a CC. And even if they do hit my opponent can just easily recover by block healing because my class has no way to punish mistakes.

Their class rework was an absolute failure. Instead of just fine tuning damage numbers from overperforming classes they completely crippled their toolkit, tried to make garbage skills good by nerfing good skills (guess what, they're still garbage because I have only 10 skill slots). Same as the skill standarization. All dots, spammables and whatever need to be equal because they were looking at skills in a vacuum and balanced the game around a target dummy...

divnyi

Dots were overnerfed in the past. We had a patch that equalized the DPS across the board and nerfed DoT DPS heavily compared to spammables.

We had dots that do x2+ damage compared to spammables, generally dot did like x1.7. Now they are x1.3.

Burst is more oppressive? Maybe you don't have a good memory. Dots ARE burst. You don't run just dots, you run 2 strongest dots your class/weapon can give, and you run burst damage to follow after initial setup. Why this gameplay wasn't good? Well, essentially whoever started laying dots first wins. Most of the dots don't even have good visual tracers, so it takes like 2 seconds to aim back, and once you did, you missed 2 GCDs of burst setup, your only chance is to run (you will not outheal it, you will likely lose if you try to engage with 2 GCDs of combat skipped).

But I do agree that dots are very underperforming now. I'd like to see x1.4+utility dots and x1.5 top damage dots. And I'd like to see proc set damages nerfed down to this dot values under 40% crit (x1.5 mod).

TheBonesXXX

Dots shouldn't do as much damage as Jabs, Rapids, and Bound Armaments or any type of pressure skill. But pressure in itself needs to be brought up a bit.

It's silly that it's easier to negate pressure builds than burst builds.

Firstmep

StaticWave wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Burst builds are very strong yes, but they are also very predictable and 1 well timed block can negate 80% of their damage. The only exception for that is when a burst build has so much uptime that it becomes a pressure build, e.g Magsorcs.

The issue with DoTs is how much constant pressure they can put out, and they don't really have counterplays except for purging or building more heals. If DoTs were buffed every class without a purge or good healing would suffer.

The best builds right now combines both DoTs and direct dmg (how surprising). So you have 3-4 DoTs ticking that keep your opponents from gaining any health with their HoTs, and your direct dmg spammable/burst can now freely do damage. This kind of playstyle is actually oppressive and unhealthy for the game because it reduces the fight to a build difference, and not skill difference. Stamdks with malacath and master dw is a prime example of this playstyle.

How do you make class dots stronger without turning into broken mechanics? There are 2 simple fixes:

1) Make HoT effects stronger to counter stronger DoTs
2) Make the alliance purge ability cheaper so every class has access to a good purge

Basically, give people an easier access to counterplay so the fight doesn't always end up one sided in favor or DoT builds

I dont agree with this assessment.

Good players accompany their burst with CC. How many 1vX clips or top 5 fights of the week are dots based/centric?. Burst has always been better, more reliable, and allowed players to simply do and be capable of more.

DOTs are not nearly as oppressive, certainly not in the way that a 15K merciless hitting you after an incap stun. It's just a matter of keeping up Hots and as it is half the classes in the game have purge now and two that dont have strong options to reset fights.

Healing is already really strong and we're already past the point of taking what was once the central templar identity and just handing it out willly nilly to the two perpetual top tier classes behind a pay wall, so you're proposal will just widen the already wide gap.

Using 1vX as a base for your argument isn't very strong, considering 1vX clips are mostly comprised of fighting bad players who don't block any easily anticipated combo.

I read a forum post complaining about 1 shot stamsorcs, then I went into BGs fighting those stamsorcs. All I did was hold block, and watch them struggling to drop my health past 80%. I can't do that against DoTs because they ignore blocking, rolling, or kiting. DoTs are oppressive because they reduce the fight to a purge or healing game.

Nbs have the highest burst on paper, but in practice it's so predictable and easy to dodge. If you die to a 15k merciless, i think we all know that isn't an issue of burst now is it? Since you mentioned templar, I'm guessing you're a templar main, which means you already have the means to counter DoTs in the first place. I don't play templar, and I can say for a fact that not every class has the same luxury to purge.

Don't believe me? Hop on any class that isn't a necro, warden, or templar, and try to fight a malacath dot dk, while also in a reasonable build that does dmg. I'll wait for your conclusion.

Rock, paper, scissors. You think you should be able to survive everything just by pressing block?
Dot builds are supposed to be the counter to block builds, while block builds can counter direct dmg builds.
Also half the classes have a cleanse, nb can suppress dots with cloak, and sorcs can disengage at will better than any spec.

Rhaegar75

Talking about DoT heavy classes....anyone else thinking that DKs are in dire need of done love?
The new patch has killed my poor DKs and in BGs my dots are rather pathetic....I’ve even got my magplar out again.

I also have some very dark thoughts about using my old stamden so I can get some easy high scores....joining the dark side of the proc meta?

Vevvev

Rhaegar75 wrote: »

Talking about DoT heavy classes....anyone else thinking that DKs are in dire need of done love?
The new patch has killed my poor DKs and in BGs my dots are rather pathetic....I’ve even got my magplar out again.

I also have some very dark thoughts about using my old stamden so I can get some easy high scores....joining the dark side of the proc meta?

My only issue with my magDK is the consistency of them when it comes to targets. Against classes with a dedicated purge, and a person who actually uses them, DKs just struggle to really get any damage off on them. If I got a gold coin for every Templar, Necro, or Warden that started spamming purges as I started casting DoTs on them I'd be able to afford all the high end houses and have the Count/Countess title by now.