With Blackwood around the corner, it's time to revisit resistances

Sangwyne

I wanted to first lead with a disclaimer, that I appreciate ZOS and their willingness to rework mechanics like critical chance/damage and the Champion system. There are still some kinks to work out, but hopefully with the addition of new stars and adjustments to some of the others, the new system will prove to be an improvement over the old. With that said, there are still quite a few remnants of an earlier era that still need to be addressed; class balance is absolutely atrocious, with the removal of proc sets in Cyrodiil exposing the imbalance between classes for everyone to see, and resistances are a mess. Recently, ZOS removed racial immunities to certain status effects, while granting additional resistances to the affected races as compensation, but this only exacerbates the issue; certain resistances are vastly overcapped, and others provide hardly any benefit whatsoever. Nord Dragonknights, for instance, are one of the more common tank specs, but have a whopping 7920 more frost resistance than they do physical resistance, with 4620 from their racial passives and 3300 from DK's Scaled Armor. On 1/1/5 armor specs, this gap becomes even more pronounced, and often I find that my spell resistance will be vastly overcapped while physical resistance sits well below max, meaning additional sources of armor are only half as effective. This is especially frustrating when you consider that frost resistance is hardly ever even useful, with frost cropping up extremely rarely, which effectively means it's a wasted racial passive. Bretons, Templars, and Dark Elves suffer this issue as well, taking significantly more physical damage due to their lower resistances compared to spell damage, especially when you consider that Light armor now increases physical damage taken by 1% per piece on top of already granting the lowest resistances in the game. Seriously, why? Equipping a Light belt now actually increases the amount of physical damage you take compared to wearing nothing at all. On that subject, it's long past time to equalize armor on belt and gloves with legs, helm, shoulders and feet; many builds are forced to wear 2 sets of the same weight and can't take advantage of using Light armor on belt and/or gloves to maximize their resistances, having to opt for Light and Medium helm/shoulders instead. Having belt and gloves give so little resistances compared to other slots unfairly punishes both Light armor users, who get vastly less armor out of other spots and really need the extra resistances, along with tanks, who are usually forced into 2 heavy sets and thus have to lose resistances on their helm and shoulder if they want to run 1/1/5. Racial and class passives that grant resistances need to be addressed; DK and Templar's Spell resistance is often wasted, certain races have absolutely useless and random resistances tacked on, and belts and gloves should either grant the same armor as other pieces or have an option to transmute their weight while retaining set bonuses. Thank you for coming to my TED talk, refreshments are available near the exit.

Bradyfjord

It's hard to tell for me at the moment with only 750CP. Will I have enough CP later on to offset enough of the penalties for certain armor weights? It seems like they put in the penalties so that we need to consider using defensive CP in our builds.

As far as resistances go, they should just leave them be. By removing the status effect immunities, the racial elemental bonuses are rather insignificant. They are just a trait that certain races have in ESO, like some being taller or shorter.

Now if they turn out to be significant in Blackwood somehow, we might all be changing our tune. But there is no indication that they have taken that route.

Scardan

Sangwyne wrote: »

Equipping a Light belt now actually increases the amount of physical damage you take compared to wearing nothing at all.

It is not true. Light armor will still soften the blow to you but bare skin will not.

I do not care if my fire resistances are overcapped (dunmer) and you might to have a point I think.
I also do not want to lose my 5k fire res ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ so I need to disagree?

Sangwyne

Scardan wrote: »

Sangwyne wrote: »

Equipping a Light belt now actually increases the amount of physical damage you take compared to wearing nothing at all.

It is not true. Light armor will still soften the blow to you but bare skin will not.

See, that's how it should work, being the sensible option, but not how it actually does in-game. Light belt gives only 520 resistances, and 660 resistances is equivalent to 1% damage reduction, meaning that if you are completely naked and decide to don a belt to protect your nethers, you will suddenly take more physical damage than you were with literally nothing on due to Light armor's 1% increased physical damage taken per piece penalty. It's completely nonsensical; belt and gloves should have their resistances increased to match shoes, legs, shoulders and head, as the groin area and the hands are some of the most important areas to protect and the reduced resistances in those areas unfairly penalizes both Light armor users and tanks/stamina builds running 5/1/1.

virtus753

Sangwyne wrote: »

Scardan wrote: »

Sangwyne wrote: »

Equipping a Light belt now actually increases the amount of physical damage you take compared to wearing nothing at all.

It is not true. Light armor will still soften the blow to you but bare skin will not.

See, that's how it should work, being the sensible option, but not how it actually does in-game. Light belt gives only 520 resistances, and 660 resistances is equivalent to 1% damage reduction, meaning that if you are completely naked and decide to don a belt to protect your nethers, you will suddenly take more physical damage than you were with literally nothing on due to Light armor's 1% increased physical damage taken per piece penalty. It's completely nonsensical; belt and gloves should have their resistances increased to match shoes, legs, shoulders and head, as the groin area and the hands are some of the most important areas to protect and the reduced resistances in those areas unfairly penalizes both Light armor users and tanks/stamina builds running 5/1/1.

It’s a belt... how does it protect anything below the belt?

Unless you’re wearing it in a very strange position indeed. And most sashes/belts/girdles in game are just belt buckles even — which shows just how out of touch with reality the world of fantasy can be.

FluffWit

I agree that Nords frost resistance is largely pointless. Used to say they made up with their other passives being really good but I dont know of that's the case anymore.

I never minded the Bretons and DKs just getting spell resistance because I could up physical using CP to match it if I wanted now. Now any CP invested in resistance effects both equally and that really isnt a good thing.

Maybe resistance in CP should be split back into two seperate categories and be a passive that doesn't require slotting.

Sangwyne

virtus753 wrote: »

It’s a belt... how does it protect anything below the belt?

Unless you’re wearing it in a very strange position indeed. And most sashes/belts/girdles in game are just belt buckles even — which shows just how out of touch with reality the world of fantasy can be.

There's quite a few things in game that don't make sense. I like to think of it as a groin protector, as a belt buckle deserves an entire armor slot no more than shoelaces would. From a practical perspective, though, there's just no real reason for belt or gloves to grant fewer resistances than other armor pieces, as it unfairly penalizes Medium and Heavy builds that run two sets of the same weight, which is quite a few of them, and means Light armor users get basically nothing out of those slots.

FluffWit wrote: »

I agree that Nords frost resistance is largely pointless. Used to say they made up with their other passives being really good but I dont know of that's the case anymore.

I never minded the Bretons and DKs just getting spell resistance because I could up physical using CP to match it if I wanted now. Now any CP invested in resistance effects both equally and that really isnt a good thing.

Maybe resistance in CP should be split back into two seperate categories and be a passive that doesn't require slotting.

After the nerfs, I think it's safe to say Nord is tied with Argonian for the title of worst race in the game. They are easily the bottom two DPS races in the game, due to no 2k max stat, W/S damage or critical damage, and aren't even the best at the one role for which all their passives were intended; Argonians are beaten by Bretons for best healer and with the nerf to Nord, Imperials have taken their place as the reigning tank race. It would be nice if Nord at least gave more Stamina/Health and 2310 Shock/Frost Resistance or something to reflect their history of hardened crusaders accustomed to weathering storms, like Argonians and Bosmer with their Disease/Poison resistance, but nope, ZOS piled all 4620 of it into a resistance that is pretty much useless for all intents and purposes. And with the removal of the option to slot physical/spell resistances separately, that extra spell resistance is as good as useless too on many tanks, which must overcap and waste their spell resistance if they want to also cap their physical resistance.

Grandchamp1989

Good opening post.

Hard to argue..

Armor this patch is all kinds of weird.

I don't use light armor pieces on my Tanks anymore. Their penalty gives increased block cost and make you take increased physical dmg. Not worth the extra 2% ressources from undaunted passive.

At the moment I do 6 heavy 1 medium (since medium provide free well-fitted and sturdy trait in armor bonus).

I'm currently trying to make a 6 medium 1 heavy (chest piece) work. It's actually quite doable with fortified brass or Armor Master for the extra resistances. Then you got 6 free sturdy pieces and well fitted you can stack on top of sturdy/well fitted traits. It makes everything dirt cheap to tank in Medium armor - try it for the laughs.

I'm honestly not quite sure if the armor changes were for the better... Things seem weird, out of place and unbalanced. I think I prefer what we had before.

Mythreindeer

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

Good opening post.

Hard to argue..

Armor this patch is all kinds of weird.

I don't use light armor pieces on my Tanks anymore. Their penalty gives increased block cost and make you take increased physical dmg. Not worth the extra 2% ressources from undaunted passive.

At the moment I do 6 heavy 1 medium (since medium provide free well-fitted and sturdy trait in armor bonus).

I'm currently trying to make a 6 medium 1 heavy (chest piece) work. It's actually quite doable with fortified brass or Armor Master for the extra resistances. Then you got 6 free sturdy pieces and well fitted you can stack on top of sturdy/well fitted traits. It makes everything dirt cheap to tank in Medium armor - try it for the laughs.

I'm honestly not quite sure if the armor changes were for the better... Things seem weird, out of place and unbalanced. I think I prefer what we had before.

Yes, medium armor tanking is a thing now.

Septimus_Magna

I dont understand the penalties for light armor, it should have no penalties because it barely restricts you. You already take more damage because you have barely any resist so the extra physical dmg taken is just wrong. If all the armor rating gets penetrated you basically get punished for wearing light armor.

Medium armor not having any penalties is weird to me, Id rather run a 10k race in cloth than in leather armor. But medium armor should only have slight penalties, right now its looking better than heavy for tanking if you can get your resistances up.

Heavy armor having increased magical harm taken is questionable to me too, maybe higher physical resist than spell resist could make a little more sense. Wearing armor to protect you from harm and being penalized for wearing armor just sounds like poor implementation of the overall goal.

BejaProphet

Good post.

However, one weakness in your argument that needs to be addressed is how it completely assumes a tank’s perspective with regards specifically to the bit about waisted passives.

To elaborate, I’m a dragon knight Nord tank and I can 100% relate to the waisted resistances and your frustration. However, since I hate alts, I often swap into medium gear, swap skills, mundus etc to play effectively as a Stam DD. And suddenly I find that the extra chunks of resistances are not waisted but rather give me a nice tankiness and thus giving my race/class choice a nice touch of off meta flavor.

Here is my point. The passives are ONLY waisted when you combine a specific class with a specific role, and a specific build style for that role! (Not all tanks shoot for high resistances).

Once we admit that then much of drive in your argument vanishes. A particular passive is unhelpful for a very selective play style? Well of course. That’s not unusual nor obviously needing corrected.

BejaProphet

@Septimus_Magna i agree with a lot of your points, but what makes you think medium looks better for tanking?

As I look it over it seems heavy is still dominant. Of course the heavy boost to resistances is a big part of why, but you did carefully qualify that part so I’ll set that aside.

But then I still note significant advantages to heavy. The boost to max health is a big deal. But probably the most significant thing is the boost to damage blocked. Blocking became much more powerful in u29, due to the extra sources of max block, all of them easy to get. It also increases healing received and reduces damage when crowd controlled.

So with all that on the table, (and still the off limit fact that resistances will be dramatically easier to achieve) what are you seeing that makes you suggest medium as best for tanks?

Nyladreas

Sangwyne wrote: »

Scardan wrote: »

Sangwyne wrote: »

Equipping a Light belt now actually increases the amount of physical damage you take compared to wearing nothing at all.

It is not true. Light armor will still soften the blow to you but bare skin will not.

See, that's how it should work, being the sensible option, but not how it actually does in-game. Light belt gives only 520 resistances, and 660 resistances is equivalent to 1% damage reduction, meaning that if you are completely naked and decide to don a belt to protect your nethers, you will suddenly take more physical damage than you were with literally nothing on due to Light armor's 1% increased physical damage taken per piece penalty. It's completely nonsensical; belt and gloves should have their resistances increased to match shoes, legs, shoulders and head, as the groin area and the hands are some of the most important areas to protect and the reduced resistances in those areas unfairly penalizes both Light armor users and tanks/stamina builds running 5/1/1.

So basically it's safe to say, that by wearing a light belt, its resistances get effectively waisted?

Firstmep

Spell resistance being higher on some classes like Templar is a relic of Olde.
That being said it makes sense in most cases, like breton, light armor passives etc.

Sangwyne

Mythreindeer wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

I'm currently trying to make a 6 medium 1 heavy (chest piece) work. It's actually quite doable with fortified brass or Armor Master for the extra resistances. Then you got 6 free sturdy pieces and well fitted you can stack on top of sturdy/well fitted traits. It makes everything dirt cheap to tank in Medium armor - try it for the laughs.

Yes, medium armor tanking is a thing now.

Honestly, lately I've been thinking that maybe I should just stop bothering to comment on how the armor changes have hurt tanks, as it doesn't seem to have accomplished anything, and finally just switch over to using Medium. Screw it. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em; I am now fully converted to the path of our Lord and Savior, Medium armor, long may he reign. Please ZOS, Medium armor passives should grant faster swim speed too. Just throw the whole kitchen sink in there. While you're at it, feel free to nerf Heavy armor some more, I don't care anymore.

BejaProphet wrote: »

Here is my point. The passives are ONLY waisted when you combine a specific class with a specific role, and a specific build style for that role! (Not all tanks shoot for high resistances).

Once we admit that then much of drive in your argument vanishes. A particular passive is unhelpful for a very selective play style? Well of course. That’s not unusual nor obviously needing corrected.

Almost all tanks DO shoot for high resistances though, that's kind of the point... stacking health alone without the resistances and mitigation to back it up means nothing. I'll acknowledge the existence of other tank builds like Sorcerer max block mitigation with Bound Aegis, Vampire Blood Mist block tanks, Necro tanks using Ravenous Goliath for 30k extra HP during periods of incoming damage, but all of those builds still need resistances for the mitigation to complement their health. My argument doesn't suddenly "vanish" just because I am referring to traditional tanks; tanking is literally an entire archetype and these mechanics existing the way they do know unfairly penalizes their role, along with roles restricted to wearing two sets of the same weight that cannot afford to lose resistances on belt and gloves. Even if it's not the highest priority, the way resistances currently work is functionally broken and should be addressed.

jtm1018

Sangwyne wrote: »

I wanted to first lead with a disclaimer, that I appreciate ZOS and their willingness to rework mechanics like critical chance/damage and the Champion system. There are still some kinks to work out, but hopefully with the addition of new stars and adjustments to some of the others, the new system will prove to be an improvement over the old. With that said, there are still quite a few remnants of an earlier era that still need to be addressed; class balance is absolutely atrocious, with the removal of proc sets in Cyrodiil exposing the imbalance between classes for everyone to see, and resistances are a mess. Recently, ZOS removed racial immunities to certain status effects, while granting additional resistances to the affected races as compensation, but this only exacerbates the issue; certain resistances are vastly overcapped, and others provide hardly any benefit whatsoever. Nord Dragonknights, for instance, are one of the more common tank specs, but have a whopping 7920 more frost resistance than they do physical resistance, with 4620 from their racial passives and 3300 from DK's Scaled Armor. On 1/1/5 armor specs, this gap becomes even more pronounced, and often I find that my spell resistance will be vastly overcapped while physical resistance sits well below max, meaning additional sources of armor are only half as effective. This is especially frustrating when you consider that frost resistance is hardly ever even useful, with frost cropping up extremely rarely, which effectively means it's a wasted racial passive. Bretons, Templars, and Dark Elves suffer this issue as well, taking significantly more physical damage due to their lower resistances compared to spell damage, especially when you consider that Light armor now increases physical damage taken by 1% per piece on top of already granting the lowest resistances in the game. Seriously, why? Equipping a Light belt now actually increases the amount of physical damage you take compared to wearing nothing at all. On that subject, it's long past time to equalize armor on belt and gloves with legs, helm, shoulders and feet; many builds are forced to wear 2 sets of the same weight and can't take advantage of using Light armor on belt and/or gloves to maximize their resistances, having to opt for Light and Medium helm/shoulders instead. Having belt and gloves give so little resistances compared to other slots unfairly punishes both Light armor users, who get vastly less armor out of other spots and really need the extra resistances, along with tanks, who are usually forced into 2 heavy sets and thus have to lose resistances on their helm and shoulder if they want to run 1/1/5. Racial and class passives that grant resistances need to be addressed; DK and Templar's Spell resistance is often wasted, certain races have absolutely useless and random resistances tacked on, and belts and gloves should either grant the same armor as other pieces or have an option to transmute their weight while retaining set bonuses. Thank you for coming to my TED talk, refreshments are available near the exit.

Wall of text hard to read.

Didnt they just made a whole lot of changes in armor, they propably will not be messing with it again anytime soon.

BejaProphet

Sangwyne wrote: »

Mythreindeer wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

I'm currently trying to make a 6 medium 1 heavy (chest piece) work. It's actually quite doable with fortified brass or Armor Master for the extra resistances. Then you got 6 free sturdy pieces and well fitted you can stack on top of sturdy/well fitted traits. It makes everything dirt cheap to tank in Medium armor - try it for the laughs.

Yes, medium armor tanking is a thing now.

Honestly, lately I've been thinking that maybe I should just stop bothering to comment on how the armor changes have hurt tanks, as it doesn't seem to have accomplished anything, and finally just switch over to using Medium. Screw it. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em; I am now fully converted to the path of our Lord and Savior, Medium armor, long may he reign. Please ZOS, Medium armor passives should grant faster swim speed too. Just throw the whole kitchen sink in there. While you're at it, feel free to nerf Heavy armor some more, I don't care anymore.

BejaProphet wrote: »

Here is my point. The passives are ONLY waisted when you combine a specific class with a specific role, and a specific build style for that role! (Not all tanks shoot for high resistances).

Once we admit that then much of drive in your argument vanishes. A particular passive is unhelpful for a very selective play style? Well of course. That’s not unusual nor obviously needing corrected.

Almost all tanks DO shoot for high resistances though, that's kind of the point... stacking health alone without the resistances and mitigation to back it up means nothing. I'll acknowledge the existence of other tank builds like Sorcerer max block mitigation with Bound Aegis, Vampire Blood Mist block tanks, Necro tanks using Ravenous Goliath for 30k extra HP during periods of incoming damage, but all of those builds still need resistances for the mitigation to complement their health. My argument doesn't suddenly "vanish" just because I am referring to traditional tanks; tanking is literally an entire archetype and these mechanics existing the way they do know unfairly penalizes their role, along with roles restricted to wearing two sets of the same weight that cannot afford to lose resistances on belt and gloves. Even if it's not the highest priority, the way resistances currently work is functionally broken and should be addressed.

I’m not sure you really addressed my point. (Forgive me if I’m just missing something.) But for the sake of isolating my main point, let’s assume that 100% of tanks go high resistances and find these passives waisted.

The result is that these passives are not useful to just one out of three archetypes. (Four if we count mag and Stam DD as distinct.). The passive is not useful to tanks, it remains useful to other roles.

I’m asking if that meets the bar for what we would call a broken passive. If you had a passive useful to tank’s and healers, but not a DD, is that broken?

Passives are often not useful to one of the various roles. It seems to me (and again, I’m just trying to understand) that your unspoken assumption is that these passives are specifically meant for tanks. From there you suggest they fail at that task and need redesigned.

What if that’s not the point of them? What if the point is that Templars and Dragon knights are “tanky” not that they are tanks? What if the idea is that my DD dk, or my DD Templar, reflects that concept by having an extra chunk of resistances.

In this case the passives are working as intended, and they just weren’t meant as a means for a Templar to be a sturdier tank than a night blade tank.

Just because it’s not for tanks doesn’t define it as broken.

Septimus_Magna

BejaProphet wrote: »

@Septimus_Magna i agree with a lot of your points, but what makes you think medium looks better for tanking?

As I look it over it seems heavy is still dominant. Of course the heavy boost to resistances is a big part of why, but you did carefully qualify that part so I’ll set that aside.

But then I still note significant advantages to heavy. The boost to max health is a big deal. But probably the most significant thing is the boost to damage blocked. Blocking became much more powerful in u29, due to the extra sources of max block, all of them easy to get. It also increases healing received and reduces damage when crowd controlled.

So with all that on the table, (and still the off limit fact that resistances will be dramatically easier to achieve) what are you seeing that makes you suggest medium as best for tanks?

Better might be bit exaggerated but medium has a lot better stam sustain (reduce block cost, reduce dodge cost, reduce stam cost and stam regen when not blocking) and you dont take more damage from magic abilities.

Sangwyne

BejaProphet wrote: »

I’m not sure you really addressed my point. (Forgive me if I’m just missing something.) But for the sake of isolating my main point, let’s assume that 100% of tanks go high resistances and find these passives waisted.

The result is that these passives are not useful to just one out of three archetypes. (Four if we count mag and Stam DD as distinct.). The passive is not useful to tanks, it remains useful to other roles.

I’m asking if that meets the bar for what we would call a broken passive. If you had a passive useful to tank’s and healers, but not a DD, is that broken?

Passives are often not useful to one of the various roles. It seems to me (and again, I’m just trying to understand) that your unspoken assumption is that these passives are specifically meant for tanks. From there you suggest they fail at that task and need redesigned.

What if that’s not the point of them? What if the point is that Templars and Dragon knights are “tanky” not that they are tanks? What if the idea is that my DD dk, or my DD Templar, reflects that concept by having an extra chunk of resistances.

In this case the passives are working as intended, and they just weren’t meant as a means for a Templar to be a sturdier tank than a night blade tank.

Just because it’s not for tanks doesn’t define it as broken.

Passives should be useful to every role. If a passive is completely useless on an entire archetype, it's a poorly designed passive. Look at Necromancer; instead of additional resistances against DOT damage, they just take 15% less DOT damage. Instead of additional resistances while Spirit Guardian is active, they just get 10% total damage reduction. With Bitter Harvest slotted, take a wild guess as to what happens instead of ZOS just slapping on extra resistances. Flat resistances that only apply to certain damage types are obsolete remnants of an earlier era in the game's design and are often wasted on specific race and class combinations; DK and Templar should have something to match Necro's % damage reduction if ZOS really wants to make them spell-resistant classes, because as it stands now their resistances passives do practically nothing compared to similar passives and certain builds get no benefit from them.