Goregrinder wrote: »Urzigurumash wrote: »One zerg was running like two groups, and pretty much all of them had crimson and earthgore. Are you even playing the game at that point? And yeh, I know that's not a lot of damage, but when there's 20+ of them chipping away at you but never dying, they'll always win.
Fingers crossed we'll keep those sets out, and I'm looking forward to stat boosting sets like alchemist, war maiden, new moon acolyte, bright throat, pariah, 7th etc coming back. Although with all the fee stats we got with the update, we're going to see crazy high numbers being hit on some stats.
I'm not sure the ontological difference between Earthgore and Pariah is all that clear. Is Seducer's a good proc? Is Caluurion's? If Seducer's is good and Caluurion's is bad, what about Queen's Elegance?
I'm not sure it's possible to draw clear ontological lines between which procs are acceptable and which are not on account of their nature. From my view procs can only be compared to each other by their objective numerical values and how they relate to other build elements.
As for other build elements, Enchantments and Poisons are free, unscaled damage, Potions and skills like Spell Symmetry and Dark Exchange are free, unscaled resources, etc.
I would say that the ones that deal free damage for the player or free healing are bad. Crimson for instance...you can literally go AFK, and it will proc when someone hits you and keep you alive. That is the game playing for you. Queen's Elegance on the other hand, does not deal damage for you. It can buff your damage, but you still have to manually heavy attack using your mouse, keyboard, and fingers in order to see it's benefits added to your damage. Queen's Elegance does not play the game for you, so I would say that is a safe "proc".
Anything that promotes Player damage/healing against Players is good. Anything that promotes ZOS damage/healing against players is bad. We want PVP not ZVP.
I'd love to see an afk player surviving with just crimson aganist any competent player hitting them, really.
While the previous meta certainly wasn't the greatest thing ever, I think the current situation is overall worse. Issues with class balance aren't as covered up as they were before, and "1-shot" metas with incredibly powerful heals are pretty awful IMO. It makes DOTs essentially useless in many cases, and even burst is often required to reach ludicrous levels in order to be effective. If I wanted to experience such a playstyle I'd go play a FPS and not an MMO.
Urzigurumash wrote: »StarOfElyon wrote: »Pariah would still be a problem. Players need to be punished for making a mistake. Sets that make you stronger for getting beat up reward lazy play.
I assume you feel the same way about Vampire's Undeath, and of course most of these Red Champion slottables?
What about Templar's Mending and Necromancer's Near-Death Experience passives?
I think we would find an undesirable loss of gameplay complexity if we were to decide that all sort of auto-defense procs were inappropriate.
I've made the same comparison in the past between a Flame Glyph and Zaan's - of course Zaan's does an outrageous amount of damage compared to a Flame Glyph, but otherwise, the idea that "unscaled damage that occurs off a light attack is imbalanced" doesn't hold up when nobody has an issue with Flame Glyphs - they're just not that strong. It's something else about Zaan's - its numerical strength. So when you compare Pariah to Fortified, that is reasonable, but when you say "Sets that make you stronger for getting beat up reward lazy play", this logic could be extended to almost any similar HP-triggered proc.
StarOfElyon wrote: »... Pariah's bonus should require you to give something - at the very least, effort.
StarOfElyon wrote: »I did say that you should have to give up something. Templars passives requires the activation of skills. Undeath comes will skill cost increases.
Urzigurumash wrote: »StarOfElyon wrote: »I did say that you should have to give up something. Templars passives requires the activation of skills. Undeath comes will skill cost increases.
Yeah I guess so, I think this concept of "free" is a little loose, and this statement "Sets that make you stronger for getting beat up reward lazy play" is something only a Thief would say. To a Warrior the mindidea that we're willingly sitting there taking damage isn't something we think of as laziness. Which is fine, this is something about which a Thief and Warrior will naturally disagree. I think I've seen you with a bow on DK haven't I?
StarOfElyon wrote: »What I mean by "lazy" is people who would rather take a hit than bash, block, or dodge roll. They don't mind taking hits because their sets reward them for taking damage, instead of letting them face the consequences of not using the mechanics of the game. I want less sets that save the player while they give up nothing.
I don't have a bow DK but I do have a Redgaurd hybrid DK (dual wield/inferno staff).
Urzigurumash wrote: »StarOfElyon wrote: »What I mean by "lazy" is people who would rather take a hit than bash, block, or dodge roll. They don't mind taking hits because their sets reward them for taking damage, instead of letting them face the consequences of not using the mechanics of the game. I want less sets that save the player while they give up nothing.
I don't have a bow DK but I do have a Redgaurd hybrid DK (dual wield/inferno staff).
Yeah ok, I remember playing with you on some sort of ranged StamDK. What sets are you wearing on this build though, surely some not on the list of 19 Cyrodiil sets? Blocking and dodge-rolling don't mitigate all damage, they mitigate nothing whatsoever from DoTs that don't have a Direct Damage opener. The least lazy player is still going to have their health bar decrease in combat.
Green Dragon Blood also scales up with missing health, so if you don't think that skill is imbalanced, am I wrong to think you take issue with the auto-proc component of Pariah more than the fact that it's a defensive element which scales up with missing health?
It appears across the countless threads bemoaning proc sets, the posters really only take issue with these auto-proc components, more than whatever the thing is that results from the auto-proc.
Urzigurumash wrote: »Yes MagDK skills are outrageously expensive, and I agree NMA 2-4 are great options for any DK in No Procrodiil for their hybrid nature, since all DKs use at least 1 skill which scales off Spell Damage.
Anyhow, probably all sound conclusions there regarding numerical balances. A bit low on the HP Regen values for my liking naturally, but keep in mind integer sources of HP Regen were buffed tremendously, because for years many players tended to overlook its usefulness in PvP. So now everybody understands that HP Regen is, and always was, a strong stat in PvP. They were also likely buffed to be on better footing with HoTs after their large buff in 2019.
I think a useful tool for problem solving is you know, deconstruction of the problem, or whatever. I think it's important to identify the particular cause of the problem rather than just destroy anything that had any association with this cause. Flat out, Dragonblood scales up with missing health, so does Pariah. You identified this scaling up with missing health as what was wrong with Pariah, but as we discuss similar tools, this aspect of Pariah isn't the problem in itself. This health-scaling issue you have with Pariah is rather only part of a problem in combination with its auto-proc condition and its numerical imbalance against other source of resistances. Principally, your issue is the numerical imbalance.
Does that sound fair? This might all seem pedantic and needlessly specific, but I think it's important to discuss this sort of view of game mechanic balance because we just came off an era where auto-damage-procs were outperforming everything - principally on account of their numerical imbalance - right into an era where only 19 out of 500 or whatever sets were useable. I believe if we're going to discuss the ways to find a middle ground which satisfies everybody the most, we should be specific and precise with our discussions. I'll happily wear whatever. I have no moral bias against proc sets, I have no need for them to remain competitive, whatever is good with me, but yes I do enjoy having crab legs pop out of my head, and I don't care if others really love a bear that pops out of theirs.
I keep making these sorts of arguments despite the overwhelming disinterest or disapproval of the subject matter, so believe me that I'm not just speaking out of selfish motivation, it's doing me no favors. These broad accusations made in many threads that people who argue against the removal of all proc sets from this game are only doing so out of selfish motivation to remain competitive despite their lack of skill are outrageously contemptuous and their derision disastrous for the conduct of any meaningful discussion.
StarOfElyon wrote: »Yeah, health scaling is an issue. It hasn't done much for me though because none of my characters (except my Templar tank) crack 30k health, but it's still an issue.
300 HP regen might seem low but EV already gives 129 HP regen plus 1407 health on top of all those other regens.
It's still a total of 429 health, magicka, and stamina regen. And that's not counting the additional health regen that heavy armor gives.
And I don't really care that people enjoy proc sets, I just want balance. I want stat sets to be balanced too.
In BG with all the sets available yes in is one if the best metas.
In Sorcodiil 3 months test it is an absolute *** show and worst meta, balance and gameplay ever and I avoid it like plague!
In BG with all the sets available yes in is one if the best metas.
In Sorcodiil 3 months test it is an absolute *** show and worst meta, balance and gameplay ever and I avoid it like plague!
We definitely have a different concept of fun.
BGs prime time? Oh the fun of being nearly blinded by the Zaan and Vates beams whilst a jolly group of high health - high damage wardens discuss the concept of immortality with some werewolves.
In the meantime a merciless charge noob will apply 50 dots with one click!!!
Sarcasm aside...BGs are in a sorry state in my opinion. Cyro may well be a magsorc realm but at least you can take any class on and fights are more based on skills
Urzigurumash wrote: »In BG with all the sets available yes in is one if the best metas.
In Sorcodiil 3 months test it is an absolute *** show and worst meta, balance and gameplay ever and I avoid it like plague!
We definitely have a different concept of fun.
BGs prime time? Oh the fun of being nearly blinded by the Zaan and Vates beams whilst a jolly group of high health - high damage wardens discuss the concept of immortality with some werewolves.
In the meantime a merciless charge noob will apply 50 dots with one click!!!
Sarcasm aside...BGs are in a sorry state in my opinion. Cyro may well be a magsorc realm but at least you can take any class on and fights are more based on skills
Sure all true about your first paragraph, but which patch did you think was better? My memory might be faulty, but Elsweyr was the only patch I remember were some incredibly overpowered thing or another wasn't hogging up the score boards, and in my view there was nothing immensely skillful about playing a bugged-to-invincibility PetSorc or spamming Spin 2 Win with infused Oblivion Torug's, or whatever it was. I think BGs are in their most enjoyable state since Elsweyr, I think, maybe I'm forgetting something. Granted I'm on I console, so things may manifest which haven't yet.
Urzigurumash wrote: »In BG with all the sets available yes in is one if the best metas.
In Sorcodiil 3 months test it is an absolute *** show and worst meta, balance and gameplay ever and I avoid it like plague!
We definitely have a different concept of fun.
BGs prime time? Oh the fun of being nearly blinded by the Zaan and Vates beams whilst a jolly group of high health - high damage wardens discuss the concept of immortality with some werewolves.
In the meantime a merciless charge noob will apply 50 dots with one click!!!
Sarcasm aside...BGs are in a sorry state in my opinion. Cyro may well be a magsorc realm but at least you can take any class on and fights are more based on skills
Sure all true about your first paragraph, but which patch did you think was better? My memory might be faulty, but Elsweyr was the only patch I remember were some incredibly overpowered thing or another wasn't hogging up the score boards, and in my view there was nothing immensely skillful about playing a bugged-to-invincibility PetSorc or spamming Spin 2 Win with infused Oblivion Torug's, or whatever it was. I think BGs are in their most enjoyable state since Elsweyr, I think, maybe I'm forgetting something. Granted I'm on I console, so things may manifest which haven't yet.
I fully respect your point of view but I have to disagree: the ongoing proc meta remains the worst meta in my opinion.
Zero skills and some classes (ie wardens) have benefited way too much from the current meta.
Some of the previous patches were also unbalanced but not as much and at least there wasn’t such a huge imbalance between classes....compare a DK and a stamden now!!
I fully respect your point of view but I have to disagree: the ongoing proc meta remains the worst meta in my opinion.
Zero skills and some classes (ie wardens) have benefited way too much from the current meta.
Some of the previous patches were also unbalanced but not as much and at least there wasn’t such a huge imbalance between classes....compare a DK and a stamden now!!
MurderMostFoul wrote: »Urzigurumash wrote: »In BG with all the sets available yes in is one if the best metas.
In Sorcodiil 3 months test it is an absolute *** show and worst meta, balance and gameplay ever and I avoid it like plague!
We definitely have a different concept of fun.
BGs prime time? Oh the fun of being nearly blinded by the Zaan and Vates beams whilst a jolly group of high health - high damage wardens discuss the concept of immortality with some werewolves.
In the meantime a merciless charge noob will apply 50 dots with one click!!!
Sarcasm aside...BGs are in a sorry state in my opinion. Cyro may well be a magsorc realm but at least you can take any class on and fights are more based on skills
Sure all true about your first paragraph, but which patch did you think was better? My memory might be faulty, but Elsweyr was the only patch I remember were some incredibly overpowered thing or another wasn't hogging up the score boards, and in my view there was nothing immensely skillful about playing a bugged-to-invincibility PetSorc or spamming Spin 2 Win with infused Oblivion Torug's, or whatever it was. I think BGs are in their most enjoyable state since Elsweyr, I think, maybe I'm forgetting something. Granted I'm on I console, so things may manifest which haven't yet.
I fully respect your point of view but I have to disagree: the ongoing proc meta remains the worst meta in my opinion.
Zero skills and some classes (ie wardens) have benefited way too much from the current meta.
Some of the previous patches were also unbalanced but not as much and at least there wasn’t such a huge imbalance between classes....compare a DK and a stamden now!!
Wardens are definitely strong, but the best ones I see aren't using procs.
Urzigurumash wrote: »I fully respect your point of view but I have to disagree: the ongoing proc meta remains the worst meta in my opinion.
Zero skills and some classes (ie wardens) have benefited way too much from the current meta.
You might be right, I agree pre-Elsweyr in the absence of one of the various broken builds of the time that combat was much more skillful than it's ever been post-Greymoor. It was an intense and challenging environment, until one or more of the broken builds showed up.Some of the previous patches were also unbalanced but not as much and at least there wasn’t such a huge imbalance between classes....compare a DK and a stamden now!!
Well there is where I could be wrong about everything in any of my posts - all of my views are heavily skewed by the fact that I'm a D Swinging and Brawler-spamming DK, and that's really it. In my view our relative strength only got better and better since the change to the cast time on D Swing and the buff to Brawler's damage and shield, and obviously we've massively benefited from the inclusion of Malacath.
If DK was the best 2h Spammer was less of a consideration for me than if 2h Spammers were any good to begin with, so my sense of class balance over the years in BGs is questionable.
[snip] Maybe the incentive should have been test the servers capabilities before selling it to people as i am sure although you may not like procs or certain sets many do that is what the game was initially design as a mix it up be what you want to be sort of game not a "look it up to see what everybody id using game"(sheep sort of). [snip] The game does run better apart from the lagg when ball groups are there or the negates that attach themselves to you at a very impromptu time i mean the 00000000days negs and the stam 0 that forces a relog and hopefully short wait to get in cyro.Yip apart from that ooo and the line of sight issues which my shy little toon cant get around yip apart fro mem its all hunky.
MurderMostFoul wrote: »Urzigurumash wrote: »In BG with all the sets available yes in is one if the best metas.
In Sorcodiil 3 months test it is an absolute *** show and worst meta, balance and gameplay ever and I avoid it like plague!
We definitely have a different concept of fun.
BGs prime time? Oh the fun of being nearly blinded by the Zaan and Vates beams whilst a jolly group of high health - high damage wardens discuss the concept of immortality with some werewolves.
In the meantime a merciless charge noob will apply 50 dots with one click!!!
Sarcasm aside...BGs are in a sorry state in my opinion. Cyro may well be a magsorc realm but at least you can take any class on and fights are more based on skills
Sure all true about your first paragraph, but which patch did you think was better? My memory might be faulty, but Elsweyr was the only patch I remember were some incredibly overpowered thing or another wasn't hogging up the score boards, and in my view there was nothing immensely skillful about playing a bugged-to-invincibility PetSorc or spamming Spin 2 Win with infused Oblivion Torug's, or whatever it was. I think BGs are in their most enjoyable state since Elsweyr, I think, maybe I'm forgetting something. Granted I'm on I console, so things may manifest which haven't yet.
I fully respect your point of view but I have to disagree: the ongoing proc meta remains the worst meta in my opinion.
Zero skills and some classes (ie wardens) have benefited way too much from the current meta.
Some of the previous patches were also unbalanced but not as much and at least there wasn’t such a huge imbalance between classes....compare a DK and a stamden now!!
Wardens are definitely strong, but the best ones I see aren't using procs.
On that I agree but it says more about the quality of the player than the class/gear. True good players are a tiny fraction of the general populationUrzigurumash wrote: »I fully respect your point of view but I have to disagree: the ongoing proc meta remains the worst meta in my opinion.
Zero skills and some classes (ie wardens) have benefited way too much from the current meta.
You might be right, I agree pre-Elsweyr in the absence of one of the various broken builds of the time that combat was much more skillful than it's ever been post-Greymoor. It was an intense and challenging environment, until one or more of the broken builds showed up.Some of the previous patches were also unbalanced but not as much and at least there wasn’t such a huge imbalance between classes....compare a DK and a stamden now!!
Well there is where I could be wrong about everything in any of my posts - all of my views are heavily skewed by the fact that I'm a D Swinging and Brawler-spamming DK, and that's really it. In my view our relative strength only got better and better since the change to the cast time on D Swing and the buff to Brawler's damage and shield, and obviously we've massively benefited from the inclusion of Malacath.
If DK was the best 2h Spammer was less of a consideration for me than if 2h Spammers were any good to begin with, so my sense of class balance over the years in BGs is questionable.
I respect that and it shows you know your class and play it well. The difference is that I can block your Dizzy and I have at least a chance to counter play....... but there’s little I can do when proc damage is raining on me just because someone fired a single skill