Why did Critical Chance sources take a hit?

ArchMikem

Being a Khajiit main I'd like to at least take advantage of my preference and make Crit Kitty builds, but that's become difficult with the Update. Mother's Sorrow + The Thief + Inner Light + Precision from CP only equals 51% chance. I lost 2k Magic and 500 Spell Damage from my other setup to get that. Does the combat team not like Critical damage builds? Because they're encouraging us to build elsewhere, since devoting all that to just hitting Crits half the time doesn't seem worth it.

phaneub17_ESO

ArchMikem wrote: »

Because they're encouraging us to build elsewhere

Diversify!

zvavi

From the patch notes:

Previously, Critical Chance was sourced very abundantly and was the clear winner in terms of a chasable stat for end game damage dealing in PvE, while having natural counters and operational costs in PvP. The main source of this issue was the fact that the standard rating of Critical Chance granted was too high, meaning item sets and passives that granted it were out of line when compared to other stats like Weapon and Spell Damage, or Penetration. With these adjustments, we expect many builds to have reduced Critical Chance rating, while also helping tone down the effectiveness of Critical Damage and Healing, unless your build goes out of its way to specifically chase those stats now.

Well, you know, after introducing brittle and catalyst, buffing warhorn and advancing yokeda, etc etc.

PS: other lines from gear are still weaker than crit, since they got indirectly nerfed by diminishing returns of 1k spell/weapon dmg, so crit is stronger than ever, just harder to get.

PS: khajit is the only race that got his passive buffed to offset the changes (lower crit but higher crit dmg) while other races got hit by diminishing returns on their main stats. Currently khajit is within 1% of the top dogs (while being the top in certain conditions) while having better sustain.

ArchMikem

zvavi wrote: »

From the patch notes:

Previously, Critical Chance was sourced very abundantly and was the clear winner in terms of a chasable stat for end game damage dealing in PvE, while having natural counters and operational costs in PvP. The main source of this issue was the fact that the standard rating of Critical Chance granted was too high, meaning item sets and passives that granted it were out of line when compared to other stats like Weapon and Spell Damage, or Penetration. With these adjustments, we expect many builds to have reduced Critical Chance rating, while also helping tone down the effectiveness of Critical Damage and Healing, unless your build goes out of its way to specifically chase those stats now.

Well, you know, after introducing brittle and catalyst, buffing warhorn and advancing yokeda, etc etc.

PS: other lines from gear are still weaker than crit, since they got indirectly nerfed by diminishing returns of 1k spell/weapon dmg, so crit is stronger than ever, just harder to get.

PS: khajit is the only race that got his passive buffed to offset the changes (lower crit but higher crit dmg) while other races got hit by diminishing returns on their main stats. Currently khajit is within 1% of the top dogs (while being the top in certain conditions) while having better sustain.

But having higher critical damage done doesn't mean a whole lot in the end when less of your attacks are critical. An extra 2% damage done for a 10% chance loss? (My Sorc used to sit at 60% pre update)

Goren

It is very discouraging to build around crit chance now. If you dedicate everything at your disposal you end up with 80%, 87% with minor prophecy. That's too much of an investment for not even getting 100% imo.

(calculation is based on 7 light armor, thief mundus with 7 divine traits, medusa, mother's sorrow, 1 grundwulf, 1 ice heart (all purple quality), legendary precise trait, major prophecy and 40 cp points into precision warfare trait)

Edit: Of course you don't 100% but it's interesting to see how far you can get. It's still too low imo, because you give up the shadow mundus stone which would increase your crit damage, you give up a second monster set bonus, a whole 5 piece set which could help you out with max resources, regen, spell damage or whatever it is that you need and you give up all the other weapon traits. Even a nightblade who slots all Assassination skills on one bar would get +12% and that's not enough to get 100%, so I wonder, is it even possible to reach 100% now?

Theignson

I've seen many quantitative analyses over the years on these forums, that argue above 50% crit chance is diminishing returns compared to other forms of damage.

nesakinter

zvavi wrote: »

From the patch notes:

Previously, Critical Chance was sourced very abundantly and was the clear winner in terms of a chasable stat for end game damage dealing in PvE, while having natural counters and operational costs in PvP. The main source of this issue was the fact that the standard rating of Critical Chance granted was too high, meaning item sets and passives that granted it were out of line when compared to other stats like Weapon and Spell Damage, or Penetration. With these adjustments, we expect many builds to have reduced Critical Chance rating, while also helping tone down the effectiveness of Critical Damage and Healing, unless your build goes out of its way to specifically chase those stats now.

Well, you know, after introducing brittle and catalyst, buffing warhorn and advancing yokeda, etc etc.

PS: other lines from gear are still weaker than crit, since they got indirectly nerfed by diminishing returns of 1k spell/weapon dmg, so crit is stronger than ever, just harder to get.

PS: khajit is the only race that got his passive buffed to offset the changes (lower crit but higher crit dmg) while other races got hit by diminishing returns on their main stats. Currently khajit is within 1% of the top dogs (while being the top in certain conditions) while having better sustain.

@zvavi Also Khajiit is the only race that can affect fixed damage effects like enchants, poisons and status effects, which actually push their DPS quite a bit higher, making up for cases where their effective power is less than other races by up to 1% as effective power does not include fixed damage effects.

Runefang

Theignson wrote: »

I've seen many quantitative analyses over the years on these forums, that argue above 50% crit chance is diminishing returns compared to other forms of damage.

Yeah but with buffed base stats and spell damage those analyses are now inaccurate.

Crit remains supreme in PvE.

nesakinter

ArchMikem wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

From the patch notes:

Previously, Critical Chance was sourced very abundantly and was the clear winner in terms of a chasable stat for end game damage dealing in PvE, while having natural counters and operational costs in PvP. The main source of this issue was the fact that the standard rating of Critical Chance granted was too high, meaning item sets and passives that granted it were out of line when compared to other stats like Weapon and Spell Damage, or Penetration. With these adjustments, we expect many builds to have reduced Critical Chance rating, while also helping tone down the effectiveness of Critical Damage and Healing, unless your build goes out of its way to specifically chase those stats now.

Well, you know, after introducing brittle and catalyst, buffing warhorn and advancing yokeda, etc etc.

PS: other lines from gear are still weaker than crit, since they got indirectly nerfed by diminishing returns of 1k spell/weapon dmg, so crit is stronger than ever, just harder to get.

PS: khajit is the only race that got his passive buffed to offset the changes (lower crit but higher crit dmg) while other races got hit by diminishing returns on their main stats. Currently khajit is within 1% of the top dogs (while being the top in certain conditions) while having better sustain.

But having higher critical damage done doesn't mean a whole lot in the end when less of your attacks are critical. An extra 2% damage done for a 10% chance loss? (My Sorc used to sit at 60% pre update)

But Khajiit is not the only race that lost the crit chance, every race did. The extra 1000 weapon damage and 4k resources more than makes up the slight loss in crit chance.

It can be a bit confusing why 2% crit damage is so huge, but it is essentially a 20% buff. The ratio of the Khajiit crit passive and other races' weapon/spell passive is the same as the ratio between Warrior/Apprentice and Shadow Mundus. There is a reason why Shadow is preferred always over Warrior/Aprrentice.

zvavi

Theignson wrote: »

I've seen many quantitative analyses over the years on these forums, that argue above 50% crit chance is diminishing returns compared to other forms of damage.

That was before, as I mentioned before, catalyst, brittle, warhorn buff...

Zodiarkslayer

zvavi wrote: »

Currently khajit is within 1% of the top dogs (while being the top in certain conditions) while having better sustain.

Khajiit are the top "dogs". LOL 🤣

WrathOfInnos

ArchMikem wrote: »

Being a Khajiit main I'd like to at least take advantage of my preference and make Crit Kitty builds, but that's become difficult with the Update. Mother's Sorrow + The Thief + Inner Light + Precision from CP only equals 51% chance. I lost 2k Magic and 500 Spell Damage from my other setup to get that. Does the combat team not like Critical damage builds? Because they're encouraging us to build elsewhere, since devoting all that to just hitting Crits half the time doesn't seem worth it.

That number seems too low. Is this with gold divines gear? Precise trait? Do you have access to Minor Prophecy? Which monster set are you using? 5-1-1 or 7 light armor?

I’m running a similar build with Sorrow + Thief + Major Prophecy + Precision and no other crit bonuses from gear sets, and it has 67.9% crit with Inferno staff front bar, or 75.4% with daggers. Back bar crit is lower, only 60.7%, but I try to minimize time there.

Ryuvain

Mained Khajiit my entire playtime. Funny how they say they're top tier now even when they're only gotten nerfs. Gonna hate how people switch to them now even though they care nothing for the race itself.

catnamedwill

Ryuvain wrote: »

Mained Khajiit my entire playtime. Funny how they say they're top tier now even when they're only gotten nerfs. Gonna hate how people switch to them now even though they care nothing for the race itself.

Khajiit got the biggest buffs of all races this racial passive update. No other race got close to a 20% on their main racials, along with nearly 10% buffs to all resources.

Scardan

zvavi wrote: »

From the patch notes:

Previously, Critical Chance was sourced very abundantly and was the clear winner in terms of a chasable stat for end game damage dealing in PvE, while having natural counters and operational costs in PvP. The main source of this issue was the fact that the standard rating of Critical Chance granted was too high, meaning item sets and passives that granted it were out of line when compared to other stats like Weapon and Spell Damage, or Penetration. With these adjustments, we expect many builds to have reduced Critical Chance rating, while also helping tone down the effectiveness of Critical Damage and Healing, unless your build goes out of its way to specifically chase those stats now.

Well, you know, after introducing brittle and catalyst, buffing warhorn and advancing yokeda, etc etc.

PS: other lines from gear are still weaker than crit, since they got indirectly nerfed by diminishing returns of 1k spell/weapon dmg, so crit is stronger than ever, just harder to get.

PS: khajit is the only race that got his passive buffed to offset the changes (lower crit but higher crit dmg) while other races got hit by diminishing returns on their main stats. Currently khajit is within 1% of the top dogs (while being the top in certain conditions) while having better sustain.

Canyou explain this diminishing returns to me?

Scardan

Goren wrote: »

It is very discouraging to build around crit chance now. If you dedicate everything at your disposal you end up with 80%, 87% with minor prophecy. That's too much of an investment for not even getting 100% imo.

(calculation is based on 7 light armor, thief mundus with 7 divine traits, medusa, mother's sorrow, 1 grundwulf, 1 ice heart (all purple quality), legendary precise trait, major prophecy and 40 cp points into precision warfare trait)

Edit: Of course you don't 100% but it's interesting to see how far you can get. It's still too low imo, because you give up the shadow mundus stone which would increase your crit damage, you give up a second monster set bonus, a whole 5 piece set which could help you out with max resources, regen, spell damage or whatever it is that you need and you give up all the other weapon traits. Even a nightblade who slots all Assassination skills on one bar would get +12% and that's not enough to get 100%, so I wonder, is it even possible to reach 100% now?

Magcro in execution range. Usually 4 gravelord skills slotted = +40% crit chance with colossus on frontbar = +50% crit chance in exe range (if target >25% hp) So, in general, you can.

Ryuvain

catnamedwill wrote: »

Ryuvain wrote: »

Mained Khajiit my entire playtime. Funny how they say they're top tier now even when they're only gotten nerfs. Gonna hate how people switch to them now even though they care nothing for the race itself.

Khajiit got the biggest buffs of all races this racial passive update. No other race got close to a 20% on their main racials, along with nearly 10% buffs to all resources.

Still sucks to know that they're FOTM. I was also mostly talking about their constant crit nerfs before. Also Malacath still kicks them in the teeth. Wait, why use Khajiit when malacath still works in pve?

zvavi

Scardan wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

From the patch notes:

Previously, Critical Chance was sourced very abundantly and was the clear winner in terms of a chasable stat for end game damage dealing in PvE, while having natural counters and operational costs in PvP. The main source of this issue was the fact that the standard rating of Critical Chance granted was too high, meaning item sets and passives that granted it were out of line when compared to other stats like Weapon and Spell Damage, or Penetration. With these adjustments, we expect many builds to have reduced Critical Chance rating, while also helping tone down the effectiveness of Critical Damage and Healing, unless your build goes out of its way to specifically chase those stats now.

Well, you know, after introducing brittle and catalyst, buffing warhorn and advancing yokeda, etc etc.

PS: other lines from gear are still weaker than crit, since they got indirectly nerfed by diminishing returns of 1k spell/weapon dmg, so crit is stronger than ever, just harder to get.

PS: khajit is the only race that got his passive buffed to offset the changes (lower crit but higher crit dmg) while other races got hit by diminishing returns on their main stats. Currently khajit is within 1% of the top dogs (while being the top in certain conditions) while having better sustain.

Canyou explain this diminishing returns to me?

Imagine a character has 7k effective spell damage (for example, total spell damage+max mag/10.5). Adding 335 spell damage to it (after 30% bonus from major and minor sorcery), you are getting a bonus 4.7% bonus to your skills and light attacks. Now after patch you will have 8.3k effective spell damage (additional 1k spell dmg *1.3 , total of 1300) so adding another 335 spell damage will add you 4.05% bonus to your skills and light attacks.

tl;dr the more of a stat you have the less strong it is, it also applies to other things, the more crit you have, the less powerful stacking crit will be, the more crit dmg you have, the less powerful more crit damage will be, etc etc.

Scarkii

not gonna lie im unsure how you have 51% crit chance with that gear cause i have the exact same stuff and im at 66% crit chance, im also a khajiit

Bodycounter

ArchMikem wrote: »

Being a Khajiit main I'd like to at least take advantage of my preference and make Crit Kitty builds, but that's become difficult with the Update. Mother's Sorrow + The Thief + Inner Light + Precision from CP only equals 51% chance.

This can't be true. Im running Ilambris, Mother's Sorrow and Julianos on my Sorcerer with a precise weapon and Inner Light slotted: I am at 64.8% critical strike chance unbuffed.

Starlight_Whisper

Power surge...I will never forget how it became trash

VaxtinTheWolf

Bodycounter wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

Being a Khajiit main I'd like to at least take advantage of my preference and make Crit Kitty builds, but that's become difficult with the Update. Mother's Sorrow + The Thief + Inner Light + Precision from CP only equals 51% chance.

This can't be true. Im running Ilambris, Mother's Sorrow and Julianos on my Sorcerer with a precise weapon and Inner Light slotted: I am at 64.8% critical strike chance unbuffed.

Maybe it's Green Mother's Sorrow traited with anything but Divines.

ArchMikem

Scarkii wrote: »

not gonna lie im unsure how you have 51% crit chance with that gear cause i have the exact same stuff and im at 66% crit chance, im also a khajiit

Bodycounter wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

Being a Khajiit main I'd like to at least take advantage of my preference and make Crit Kitty builds, but that's become difficult with the Update. Mother's Sorrow + The Thief + Inner Light + Precision from CP only equals 51% chance.

This can't be true. Im running Ilambris, Mother's Sorrow and Julianos on my Sorcerer with a precise weapon and Inner Light slotted: I am at 64.8% critical strike chance unbuffed.

Balorgh's, Sorrow, and Julianos with a Nirnhoned staff. I don't get where you guys are getting your numbers either. Even the Previse trait doesn't give you over 10%.

Bodycounter

Oh yeah, im running full divines with Thief Mundus, sorry. Switched from Shadow Mundus with the last patch.

ArchMikem

After putting Leviathan back on my StamBlade and using a Pot and some other minor buff I'm not sure comes from, perhaps a Class passive I can get a crit chance on that character as high as 63% without using the Thief, but that's not reliable. I basically have to use a potion every time I fight something and those run out fast. Good think I have millions of AP banked, I can just go buy a metric horker's ton of Alliance Pots, even though they're not as good as crafted.

But getting a higher crit chance was always easiest on my Stamblade. Trying to wrap my head around making it work for all my characters is just depressing.

Vaoh

They want us to focus less on stacking critical chance.... funny thing is, all the nerf did was guarantee that we have to stack critical chance more than ever to make up for the loss lol. Spell/Weapon Damage gets buffed by simmering frenzy anyway. If they want to fix this issue they need to make crit less valuable, aka reduce base critical damage.

zvavi

Vaoh wrote: »

They want us to focus less on stacking critical chance.... funny thing is, all the nerf did was guarantee that we have to stack critical chance more than ever to make up for the loss lol. Spell/Weapon Damage gets buffed by simmering frenzy anyway. If they want to fix this issue they need to make crit less valuable, aka reduce base critical damage.

There are better ways to make people not build into crit without nerfing. Watch this. "Brittle is now affecting target's damage taken from non critical damage instead of critical damage" and what should have been done instead of nerfing crit. In addition they should buff all the weapon/spell damage set bonuses by 3.3%, while bonuses of max resources by 30% to account for the diminishing returns and no CP +20%, and buff us only 300 spell damage instead of 1000. It would still nerf damage a tiny bit like it did while ensuring crit is less valuable.

WrathOfInnos

zvavi wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

They want us to focus less on stacking critical chance.... funny thing is, all the nerf did was guarantee that we have to stack critical chance more than ever to make up for the loss lol. Spell/Weapon Damage gets buffed by simmering frenzy anyway. If they want to fix this issue they need to make crit less valuable, aka reduce base critical damage.

There are better ways to make people not build into crit without nerfing. Watch this. "Brittle is now affecting target's damage taken from non critical damage instead of critical damage" and what should have been done instead of nerfing crit. In addition they should buff all the weapon/spell damage set bonuses by 3.3%, while bonuses of max resources by 30% to account for the diminishing returns and no CP +20%, and buff us only 300 spell damage instead of 1000. It would still nerf damage a tiny bit like it did while ensuring crit is less valuable.

Agreed, set bonuses could use some adjustments. I’d recommend going with 150 as a standard weapon/spell damage. This is still slightly weaker than 3% crit in optimized groups, but would perform slightly better in solo content (no crit ding or spell dmg buffs). This would also shift a 5pc like Juli/Hundings to 350. Max Mag/Stam should be 1500, which would stay weaker than Weapon/Spell Dmg because it also has sustain and shield benefits, but with a narrower gap. In this case max resource sets could give 3500 on the 5pc.

These same ratios should also be used to make max resource and weapon/spell damage mundus stones closer to Thief/Shadow.

Septimus_Magna

On my magsorc Im running 5x Medusa (gold jewelry + fire staff) and 5x Siroria/False God (purple body) with 2x Zaan/Slimecraw (purple head+shoulder). With the False God setup my spell crit on the front bar is something like 69% with Thief mundus, precise inferno and major prophecy.

The thing is that each attack deals more damage now because of the extra 1000 spell damage, this applies to both crits and non-crits. Crit chance has been nerfed but crit stat effectiveness has probably been buffed if you take into account that much of the effectiveness of crit came from the old CP system.

This means its more difficult to stack high crit chance or crit damage, but increasing your crit damage results in more dps gain than before. Resulting in Khajiit relatively being buffed by these changes and making them best racial choice for DPS in an optimized group setting.

SshadowSscale

Don't mind me just waiting for the blame it on pvp comments......even though critical has been useless in pvp since greymore but oh well.....its always pvps fault

zvavi

SshadowSscale wrote: »

Don't mind me just waiting for the blame it on pvp comments......even though critical has been useless in pvp since greymore but oh well.....its always pvps fault

Look mate I am all for blaming PvP-ers, but I only do it when there is a reason to...