Ball group No CP no Proc

Zabulus

= lag and awfull gameplay with almost no counter
= no fun if you're not in the ball group.

Pauwer

Last nite we had 3 dc ball groups stacked together, taking one outpost (as an ad player i usually take them solo lol) the lag was unreal, the whole game in slow motion. Even the npcs were moving like they were frozen in time.

vesselwiththepestle

Actually ball groups seem rather week at the moment. Far more counters are working because snow treaders are not working (you can make use of pull mechanisms far better). Also ground aoe's have more effect on them, as they don't have Earthgore right now (which main use isn't the heal, but the purge of ground aoe). Use inevitable detonation, negates, psijic stun fields, pull/chain mechanisms and you will get them.

That said... leaving those ball groups playing alone is always an option.

Ball groups are so weak right now, some of them started to stack on each other or with zergs. Without VD stacking with a zerg might be a very good option right now for them. Thankfully we get proc sets back in a few months, so ball groups can't stack with zergs anymore (the VD procs in a zerg stack would kill them pretty fast).

techyeshic

Lol VD is going to actually help ball groups. In CP in Gray Host, the ball groups seem a bit down, but complete faction stacks are up. I don't run in a ball group, but I hope to see what happens when VD chains hit that.

neferpitou73

vesselwiththepestle wrote: »

Actually ball groups seem rather week at the moment. Far more counters are working because snow treaders are not working (you can make use of pull mechanisms far better). Also ground aoe's have more effect on them, as they don't have Earthgore right now (which main use isn't the heal, but the purge of ground aoe). Use inevitable detonation, negates, psijic stun fields, pull/chain mechanisms and you will get them.

That said... leaving those ball groups playing alone is always an option.

Ball groups are so weak right now, some of them started to stack on each other or with zergs. Without VD stacking with a zerg might be a very good option right now for them. Thankfully we get proc sets back in a few months, so ball groups can't stack with zergs anymore (the VD procs in a zerg stack would kill them pretty fast).

100% All of this. ZoS has made ball groups weaker and zergs stronger...which causes even more lag. It's so bad that ball groups are zerging together.

Also, the correct tactic to avoid getting farmed by a ball group is and always has been to leave. They'll get bored after a few minutes in an empty keep and move on, so you can retake

AuraNebula

techyeshic wrote: »

Lol VD is going to actually help ball groups. In CP in Gray Host, the ball groups seem a bit down, but complete faction stacks are up. I don't run in a ball group, but I hope to see what happens when VD chains hit that.

They could adjust VD so that only 1 to 2 members in a group could wear it. They could do this with quite a few sets actually. Or have the effectiveness decrease or add some type of penalty if more than 1 person in a group is wearing that set.

Sanctum74

Princessrhaenyra wrote: »

techyeshic wrote: »

Lol VD is going to actually help ball groups. In CP in Gray Host, the ball groups seem a bit down, but complete faction stacks are up. I don't run in a ball group, but I hope to see what happens when VD chains hit that.

They could adjust VD so that only 1 to 2 members in a group could wear it. They could do this with quite a few sets actually. Or have the effectiveness decrease or add some type of penalty if more than 1 person in a group is wearing that set.

Now that’s an idea I could agree with or just disable vd and proxy for groups all together so they can be used for their original intention to break up groups.

Ranger209

Make these small modifications to Vicious Death and Proxy Det and it would go along way. This set and skill were implemented to help deal with ball groups, but instead because of the way they work ball groups use them to their advantage.

Vicious Death
LEVEL 50 - CP 160
Type PvP
Set bonus
(2 items) Adds 129 Spell Damage
(3 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Magicka
(4 items) Adds 833 Spell Critical
(5 items) Adds 1487 Spell Penetration, When you kill a Player, they violently explode for 22940 Flame Damage to all other enemies in a 14 meter radius. The radius is reduced by 1 meter for each member in your group


Proximity Detonation
Cast Time: Instant
Target: Area
Range: Radius: 8 meters
Cost: 3510 Magicka
Skill description
Activate a magical bomb on yourself that explodes after 8 seconds, dealing 636 Magic Damage to all enemies in the area. Each enemy within the bomb's radius increases the damage by 25%. Each group member within the bomb's radius decreases the damage done by 25%
New effect
You become the center of the detonation. Removes cast time, but doubles the duration it takes to detonate.

Bump the radius of vicious death up to 14 meters and then have it shrink by 1 meter for each group member down to 2 meters for a full group of 12.

For Proxy Det add that each group member within the radius of the bomb subtracts 25% damage from the bomb thereby negating its original effect when a bunch of tightly grouped members all try to use it together as a multi-man bombing tactic.

IAmIcehouse

Ranger209 wrote: »

Vicious Death
LEVEL 50 - CP 160
Type PvP
Set bonus
(2 items) Adds 129 Spell Damage
(3 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Magicka
(4 items) Adds 833 Spell Critical
(5 items) Adds 1487 Spell Penetration, When you kill a Player, they violently explode for 22940 Flame Damage to all other enemies in a 14 meter radius. The radius is reduced by 1 meter for each member in your group

As a bomber main who would benefit extremely from this, HELLLL no. I hope you are kidding, 14, meters? Hell, 6 meters would be busted.

Ranger209

IAmIcehouse wrote: »

Ranger209 wrote: »

Vicious Death
LEVEL 50 - CP 160
Type PvP
Set bonus
(2 items) Adds 129 Spell Damage
(3 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Magicka
(4 items) Adds 833 Spell Critical
(5 items) Adds 1487 Spell Penetration, When you kill a Player, they violently explode for 22940 Flame Damage to all other enemies in a 14 meter radius. The radius is reduced by 1 meter for each member in your group

As a bomber main who would benefit extremely from this, HELLLL no. I hope you are kidding, 14, meters? Hell, 6 meters would be busted.

Busted for who? A solo bomber?

IAmIcehouse

Ranger209 wrote: »

IAmIcehouse wrote: »

Ranger209 wrote: »

Vicious Death
LEVEL 50 - CP 160
Type PvP
Set bonus
(2 items) Adds 129 Spell Damage
(3 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Magicka
(4 items) Adds 833 Spell Critical
(5 items) Adds 1487 Spell Penetration, When you kill a Player, they violently explode for 22940 Flame Damage to all other enemies in a 14 meter radius. The radius is reduced by 1 meter for each member in your group

As a bomber main who would benefit extremely from this, HELLLL no. I hope you are kidding, 14, meters? Hell, 6 meters would be busted.

Busted for who? A solo bomber?

Yes.

Ranger209

IAmIcehouse wrote: »

Ranger209 wrote: »

IAmIcehouse wrote: »

Ranger209 wrote: »

Vicious Death
LEVEL 50 - CP 160
Type PvP
Set bonus
(2 items) Adds 129 Spell Damage
(3 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Magicka
(4 items) Adds 833 Spell Critical
(5 items) Adds 1487 Spell Penetration, When you kill a Player, they violently explode for 22940 Flame Damage to all other enemies in a 14 meter radius. The radius is reduced by 1 meter for each member in your group

As a bomber main who would benefit extremely from this, HELLLL no. I hope you are kidding, 14, meters? Hell, 6 meters would be busted.

Busted for who? A solo bomber?

Yes.

There are ways around that if it would prove to be the case. Massage the numbers, make it 7 meters and reduce a meter for every 2 in your group, of make it 5 meters and reduce it a meter for every 3 in your group . I'm not sure where the balance in that lies between 12 man groups and solo players, but it is in there somewhere. It just needs to be found.

Another way to go about it would be to reduce the damage it causes based on number of group members in your group. Point is there are ways to make these abilities/proc effects work in favor of breaking up groups like they are supposed to instead of working in favor of comped groups farming inordinate amounts of other players.

IAmIcehouse

Ranger209 wrote: »

IAmIcehouse wrote: »

Ranger209 wrote: »

IAmIcehouse wrote: »

Ranger209 wrote: »

Vicious Death
LEVEL 50 - CP 160
Type PvP
Set bonus
(2 items) Adds 129 Spell Damage
(3 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Magicka
(4 items) Adds 833 Spell Critical
(5 items) Adds 1487 Spell Penetration, When you kill a Player, they violently explode for 22940 Flame Damage to all other enemies in a 14 meter radius. The radius is reduced by 1 meter for each member in your group

As a bomber main who would benefit extremely from this, HELLLL no. I hope you are kidding, 14, meters? Hell, 6 meters would be busted.

Busted for who? A solo bomber?

Yes.

There are ways around that if it would prove to be the case. Massage the numbers, make it 7 meters and reduce a meter for every 2 in your group, of make it 5 meters and reduce it a meter for every 3 in your group . I'm not sure where the balance in that lies between 12 man groups and solo players, but it is in there somewhere. It just needs to be found.

Another way to go about it would be to reduce the damage it causes based on number of group members in your group. Point is there are ways to make these abilities/proc effects work in favor of breaking up groups like they are supposed to instead of working in favor of comped groups farming inordinate amounts of other players.

Why do we need to buff it at all for solo bombing? It's fine at 4m. No one wants bombing to be easy.

IAmIcehouse

Also, I don't really get the hate on groups running VD. Pug stacks aren't dying to VD. VD does such a small amount of a total groups damage. Usually less than 5%.

It's really good at taking out other groups though. Pug stacks will die with or without VD.

neferpitou73

IAmIcehouse wrote: »

Also, I don't really get the hate on groups running VD. Pug stacks aren't dying to VD. VD does such a small amount of a total groups damage. Usually less than 5%.

It's really good at taking out other groups though. Pug stacks will die with or without VD.

Can confirm, we've looked at the numbers, VD does a pathetic amount of percentage of player damage. The real threat of VD is when certain high skilled bombers use it on large groups...

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Damage % means very little in group Vs zerg.

VD is extremely useful in killing players when heavily outnumbered even if it isn't a high % of overall DMG it secures a lot of kills. It's basically one of the sole reasons groups were basically 90% magicka dd's.

neferpitou73

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Damage % means very little in group Vs zerg.

VD is extremely useful in killing players when heavily outnumbered even if it isn't a high % of overall DMG it secures a lot of kills. It's basically one of the sole reasons groups were basically 90% magicka dd's.

It really isn't, we've looked at the numbers in our group. The reason people run mag DD's is proxy and destro, which do way more overall damage and actually get KBs, unlike VD.

Joy_Division

neferpitou73 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Damage % means very little in group Vs zerg.

VD is extremely useful in killing players when heavily outnumbered even if it isn't a high % of overall DMG it secures a lot of kills. It's basically one of the sole reasons groups were basically 90% magicka dd's.

It really isn't, we've looked at the numbers in our group. The reason people run mag DD's is proxy and destro and harmony, which do way more overall damage and actually get KBs, unlike VD.

Adding to your point

Satiar

neferpitou73 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Damage % means very little in group Vs zerg.

VD is extremely useful in killing players when heavily outnumbered even if it isn't a high % of overall DMG it secures a lot of kills. It's basically one of the sole reasons groups were basically 90% magicka dd's.

It really isn't, we've looked at the numbers in our group. The reason people run mag DD's is proxy and destro, which do way more overall damage and actually get KBs, unlike VD.

Proxy/destro will get you low, kill some. VD will turn 1-3 kills into a stack wipe. Multiplies the value of each kill while not really costing you anything. What would you wear instead of VD? What value is that extra 500ish spell damage vs a 30k aoe nuke?

Ranger209

IAmIcehouse wrote: »

Ranger209 wrote: »

IAmIcehouse wrote: »

Ranger209 wrote: »

IAmIcehouse wrote: »

Ranger209 wrote: »

Vicious Death
LEVEL 50 - CP 160
Type PvP
Set bonus
(2 items) Adds 129 Spell Damage
(3 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Magicka
(4 items) Adds 833 Spell Critical
(5 items) Adds 1487 Spell Penetration, When you kill a Player, they violently explode for 22940 Flame Damage to all other enemies in a 14 meter radius. The radius is reduced by 1 meter for each member in your group

As a bomber main who would benefit extremely from this, HELLLL no. I hope you are kidding, 14, meters? Hell, 6 meters would be busted.

Busted for who? A solo bomber?

Yes.

There are ways around that if it would prove to be the case. Massage the numbers, make it 7 meters and reduce a meter for every 2 in your group, of make it 5 meters and reduce it a meter for every 3 in your group . I'm not sure where the balance in that lies between 12 man groups and solo players, but it is in there somewhere. It just needs to be found.

Another way to go about it would be to reduce the damage it causes based on number of group members in your group. Point is there are ways to make these abilities/proc effects work in favor of breaking up groups like they are supposed to instead of working in favor of comped groups farming inordinate amounts of other players.

Why do we need to buff it at all for solo bombing? It's fine at 4m. No one wants bombing to be easy.

its not about buffing it for solo bombing. it is about reducing its effectiveness for ball groups without hurting it for solo bombing, or solo/small group play in general. So a way to make it perhaps slightly more effective for solo players, not necessarily just solo bombers. Though I grant you the original numbers could make them quite a bit stronger, or not. That would remain to be seen. Bombers generally flag bomb of some sort or transitus. Their targets are usually quite close together anyway. At any rate my personal VD death count is 9/10 ball group 1/10 solo player.

Ranger209

neferpitou73 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Damage % means very little in group Vs zerg.

VD is extremely useful in killing players when heavily outnumbered even if it isn't a high % of overall DMG it secures a lot of kills. It's basically one of the sole reasons groups were basically 90% magicka dd's.

It really isn't, we've looked at the numbers in our group. The reason people run mag DD's is proxy and destro, which do way more overall damage and actually get KBs, unlike VD.

It really is, we've looked at our death recaps, we see what kills us and who is using it. I'll trust my own observations of what I am seeing over someone else's. Proxy is there a lot as well from the same people, destro not so much, though maybe more so now with VD currently not usable.

neferpitou73

Satiar wrote: »

neferpitou73 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Damage % means very little in group Vs zerg.

VD is extremely useful in killing players when heavily outnumbered even if it isn't a high % of overall DMG it secures a lot of kills. It's basically one of the sole reasons groups were basically 90% magicka dd's.

It really isn't, we've looked at the numbers in our group. The reason people run mag DD's is proxy and destro, which do way more overall damage and actually get KBs, unlike VD.

Proxy/destro will get you low, kill some. VD will turn 1-3 kills into a stack wipe. Multiplies the value of each kill while not really costing you anything. What would you wear instead of VD? What value is that extra 500ish spell damage vs a 30k aoe nuke?

That 30k nuke is only in a 4m radius. People aren't stacking as tightly, therefore it's better to put set slots into stats/other procs than it is for something that barely hits anyone.

I won't claim my experience is universal, but I've been keeping track of the numbers, we get more KBs off of proxy, destro than VD. Heck, my weapon enchant did more damage than VD over a 2hr raid. Though that could just be our playstyle.

vesselwiththepestle

VD doesn't do much damage over the course of a raid. Especially if several players have it running, because only one will proc it... However, VD has the potential to turn a fight and it has the potential to wipe a group completely very fast instead of having a long-going fight. That's good. Also you've got that Spell Pen bonus on the 5th item since a while now, so even when you don't proc VD, at least you got a bit of Spell Pen...

If you want to do have high damage over the course of a raid, there are better set choices, of course. However, if VD is so weak, why kept ball groups running it?

Crash427

The only people who want VD nerfed are the people who run in the stacks it was designed to kill.


And everything else aside, someone trying to tell Iz what's up when it comes to ballgroups is hilarious.

IAmIcehouse

vesselwiththepestle wrote: »

VD doesn't do much damage over the course of a raid. Especially if several players have it running, because only one will proc it... However, VD has the potential to turn a fight and it has the potential to wipe a group completely very fast instead of having a long-going fight. That's good. Also you've got that Spell Pen bonus on the 5th item since a while now, so even when you don't proc VD, at least you got a bit of Spell Pen...

If you want to do have high damage over the course of a raid, there are better set choices, of course. However, if VD is so weak, why kept ball groups running it?

No one was trying to say it was weak. Or even not BIS for group magdps. All I was trying to say is, if you're complaining about dying to VD, you'd be complaining about something else.

DTStormfox

The solution is not to give back proc sets or buff abilities. The solution is to disincentivize ball group gameplay. In my experience, and I believe I share that experience with many other PvP players, whenever ball groups show up the lag increases. The reason is simple: they run around like they are using macros (not suggesting they actually are, but they could be, nobody would notice anyway because they are 'hidden' inside the group and all the animations) to constantly cast AOE abilities for healing and damage. Every now and then they peak their damage, causing a lag spike in the server load, negatively affecting all players in the same instance except themselves.

Sandman929

It seems like most ball groups, on Xbox anyway, are brought down to earth defensively without proc sets. They can still have some success, and are still offensively strong if they're coordinated, but there is very little margin for error with healing/purging.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Sandman929 wrote: »

It seems like most ball groups, on Xbox anyway, are brought down to earth defensively without proc sets. They can still have some success, and are still offensively strong if they're coordinated, but there is very little margin for error with healing/purging.

From our side its more the case that there are so many desyncs which cause player deaths so in outnumbered situations it makes it far more difficult.
There are for sure less defensive sets like EG and all the defensive buffs etc but that's the main thing. 90% of our deaths this patch are due to player's being desynced so their characters cant move or use skills.

Sandman929

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

It seems like most ball groups, on Xbox anyway, are brought down to earth defensively without proc sets. They can still have some success, and are still offensively strong if they're coordinated, but there is very little margin for error with healing/purging.

From our side its more the case that there are so many desyncs which cause player deaths so in outnumbered situations it makes it far more difficult.
There are for sure less defensive sets like EG and all the defensive buffs etc but that's the main thing. 90% of our deaths this patch are due to player's being desynced so their characters cant move or use skills.

Well, that's pretty much the main issue all the time isn't it?

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

It seems like most ball groups, on Xbox anyway, are brought down to earth defensively without proc sets. They can still have some success, and are still offensively strong if they're coordinated, but there is very little margin for error with healing/purging.

From our side its more the case that there are so many desyncs which cause player deaths so in outnumbered situations it makes it far more difficult.
There are for sure less defensive sets like EG and all the defensive buffs etc but that's the main thing. 90% of our deaths this patch are due to player's being desynced so their characters cant move or use skills.

Well, that's pretty much the main issue all the time isn't it?

It varies, the desyncs haven't been as bad as it is now since Harrowstorm DLC last year, they improved in Greyhost, Markarth but has just gone backwards in this DLC.

Normally issues are more so just the general lag and skill casting, i would say it was more around 65% lag/bug and 35% poor calls/play in the later half of last year vs now (90% desync).

It feels much more punishing now because its a lot more out of our control who will get desynced vs with lag we can somewhat control how much there is based on fight selection and trying to spread out the faction / make sure we focus on killing people early rather than kiting until a better or more favourable situation.

xDeusEJRx

IAmIcehouse wrote: »

Also, I don't really get the hate on groups running VD. Pug stacks aren't dying to VD. VD does such a small amount of a total groups damage. Usually less than 5%.

It's really good at taking out other groups though. Pug stacks will die with or without VD.

It's literally as you're saying, a group running VD. It's a group weaponizing a powerful proc and some guilds run essentially zergs with VD and at that point it's just mindless pugs all stacking vd on one another. Their damage is pathetic but you still realize they just vd stack and kill other pugs and you can be caught in the crossfire. I went into a BG where some of these guys have fled to and literally had 3 VD procs on recap. It's not even their damage is high, they're just running zerg style with VD