The people upset about the proc test don't make any sense

spacefracking

Ok, well they do make some sense.

There were many builds that took a raid to take down before procs were dropped. This is gone.

Ballgroups could survive for 30 minutes against 50 people. This is gone. There are actual tactics, and not just luck, that can kill these players.

We're basically getting a free meta, and that keeps the game fresh. This is fresh. People enjoy figuring out new builds, and this created those conditions.

There were a lot of classes that just couldn't compete with some classes that synergized with proc sets too well. Those sets are still weaker, but still viable for play. I play magblade, and zos hasn't shown it any love is farrr to long, in pvp. Pve last patch was no bargain either lol

I can't help but think some people are upset because they aren't as good as they used to be. That's how regular balance patches go. The number of effectively unkillable kitted up players I've seen makes me think the complainers are in the category. This attitude is very hostile to new players, and the nerf of the CP buff, has leveled the playing field for new players, so it is clearly (and rightly so) a priority.

If ZOS ran a new test every like 2-3 months, I think anyone interested in competition would find it heavenly. Those that liked never dying and killing everything are counterproductive to the product as a whole.

I hope this meta stays. I hope zos tests some extended list next, then another extended list, then some other list, etc.

That's an interesting and fun game, and it will be balanced as people figure out each new meta.

biminirwb17_ESO

In zone chat today there was a lot of talk about builds, 1 piece trainee v 3 bits of xyz etc. People are interested and figuring out tweaks to their setups.

My observation is many of those upset are relatively new to ESO. Have not experienced the introduction of the first CP system or the increase to cp160 weapons and armor. Remember when the twin sisters were two axes?

Nothing stays the same especially not ESO.

Elo106

They should have a normal and a no proc campaign.

Forcing people to ditch 98.7% of sets and play with 18 sets is boring. People might die faster but theres still zergs running around spamming regeneration on each other not dieing. Lag is worse than before. Class imbalance is worse, bad classes could crutch on proc sets, now they are just bad.

Yeah we had op sets before but those op sets should have been nerfed, instead we removed nearly all sets for worse performance, worse build diversity, worse class imbalance.

xDeusEJRx

Elo106 wrote: »

They should have a normal and a no proc campaign.

Forcing people to ditch 98.7% of sets and play with 18 sets is boring. People might die faster but theres still zergs running around spamming regeneration on each other not dieing. Lag is worse than before. Class imbalance is worse, bad classes could crutch on proc sets, now they are just bad.

Yeah we had op sets before but those op sets should have been nerfed, instead we removed nearly all sets for worse performance, worse build diversity, worse class imbalance.

Playing devils advocate about the "class imbalance" argument, even with proc sets the imbalance would still be there. Just because some sets allow classes to perform better doesn't make the class a working class or even a godly class. If you apply the same setup to the overperforming classes then they typically can perform even better. Example being the Undaunted unweaver undaunted infiltrator (heavy attack build). A Mag DK running that setup could get kills off it, yes, however a Mag sorc can wield it way better because sorcs have a better toolkit than MagDKs, they got pets they can use to enhance it like the matriach for free heals and the volatile familiar for free stuns, and streaks to get away from tough fights. Mag sorcs can sacrifice most of their skills because the heavy attack build's DPS is literally just heavy attack channeling with a shock staff, so they can afford to lose most of their abilities, whereas MagDK's can't wield it nearly as well. Class imbalance will still exist even amongst builds that can "amplify weaker classes"

Elo106

Yes with procs you can make good classes to great builds but you can also make bad classes to playable builds.

Right now with just stat sets you cant compensate for lack of class utility. EG: your class lacks a burst heal you could get that from a set. You lack a hot you can get it from a set.

Thats why class imbalance wasnt as bad before now you have no way to compensate for class weaknesses

lolo_01b16_ESO

I think my arguments why I don't like it are actually quite reasonable:

- I like playing as a team, so I like to use armour that helps my friends, even if my own benefit from it is smaller than what I could get from a "selfish" set. Now without proc sets, you only have selfish sets and I can't use gossamer, transmutation, ...
- I really like theorycrafting and spending time to figure out what combinations might be fun to play. Now with the reduced amount of sets, there is very little left. You have 18 allowed sets. Usually more than half of those don't make any sense for your build (I'm sure noone even considers to put Leviathan on a magicka healer). Leaving you with just a hand full of options to choose from.
- I'm sure a great number of players doesn't visit the forums and just relays on ingame tooltips when choosing their gear. There should at least be a big red warning in the ingame tooltip, telling them that the armour set they got doesn't work in pvp anymore.
- For me personally the few times I entered Cyro during the test, server performance was worse than before.

VaranisArano

Another reason for griping about the test that you don't mention is that many players assumed that no-procs would be around for three weeks to test the impact on performance, then ZOS would evaluate it. They tailored their feedback accordingly - performance certainly didn't improve.

Then they got blindsided by ZOS' choice to use the three-week test as a referendum on no-proc gameplay and to lock in no-procs for at least 6 months.

Remember it's only afterwards when those players had their say about no proc gameplay that ZOS relented and decided we can have campaigns with and without proc sets once they recode the game to allow that.


It's one thing to shift the meta dramatically to keep things fresh. ZOS does that all the time. It's nothing new.

It's a whole different thing to say you are testing performance, gather feedback accordingly, then swing the meta according to only the group of players who really loved the tested gameplay with very little feedback from the group who didn't. That's what happened. And when ZOS got a better picture of what the PVP community actually thought, they decided they're fine with proc and no proc gameplay in different campaigns.

So don't worry. You'll have your own no-proc campaign to play around in as you like, and the players who prefer proc sets for their own reasons will play in theirs.

spacefracking

VaranisArano wrote: »

Another reason for griping about the test that you don't mention is that many players assumed that no-procs would be around for three weeks to test the impact on performance, then ZOS would evaluate it. They tailored their feedback accordingly - performance certainly didn't improve.

Then they got blindsided by ZOS' choice to use the three-week test as a referendum on no-proc gameplay and to lock in no-procs for at least 6 months.

There was a poll, on here no less, during the test, which showed 80%+ of players preferred no proc. That was the feedback period, and the results were overwhelming.

Elo106 wrote: »

Yes with procs you can make good classes to great builds but you can also make bad classes to playable builds.

Right now with just stat sets you cant compensate for lack of class utility. EG: your class lacks a burst heal you could get that from a set. You lack a hot you can get it from a set.

Thats why class imbalance wasnt as bad before now you have no way to compensate for class weaknesses

The first point is moot, imo, as no matter the meta, someone could always run 7-piece ancestor silk and a ruby ash frost staff.

Class utility, relatively speaking, is balanced based on their strengths and weaknesses. Making a class with overwhelming power I'm exlvery dimension is just creating an unkillable player. Proc sets amplified any inherent imbalance, by giving the strongest classes sets that could buff less strong classes reasonably.

Everyone agrees the game is unbalanced, bu it only takes people like 2 weeks of a new meta to find a build that can't be killed without several raids. It is incredibly unbalanced, and if we want it rebalanced, we need to see what the actual mechs are, rather than testing out each permutation of all of the hundreds of sets during pts.

biminirwb17_ESO wrote: »

My observation is many of those upset are relatively new to ESO. Have not experienced the introduction of the first CP system or the increase to cp160 weapons and armor. Remember when the twin sisters were two axes.

I've found more that it's old players who can't just run around anymore in an unkillable state. I think it's fair that 30 people can take a top notch ballgroup in 5-10 minutes now. Before, with vd, snow treaders, etc, the best ball groups could farm inside a keep for a half hour to an hour, until they got bored and leave. All without a single death.

Elo106

spacefracking wrote: »

There was a poll, on here no less, during the test, which showed 80%+ of players preferred no proc. That was the feedback period, and the results were overwhelming.

That poll was created on day one of the test and people voted on it while they were in their honeymoon period (happy cause it was new). A lot of people who didnt like the test just took a break and wanted to be back after the test.
When they said it was here to stay we made a new poll that was overwhelmingly against no proc/proc only on one campaign.
But that was ofc closed and redirected to the old poll

spacefracking wrote: »

Elo106 wrote: »

Yes with procs you can make good classes to great builds but you can also make bad classes to playable builds.

Right now with just stat sets you cant compensate for lack of class utility. EG: your class lacks a burst heal you could get that from a set. You lack a hot you can get it from a set.

Thats why class imbalance wasnt as bad before now you have no way to compensate for class weaknesses

The first point is moot, imo, as no matter the meta, someone could always run 7-piece ancestor silk and a ruby ash frost staff.

Class utility, relatively speaking, is balanced based on their strengths and weaknesses. Making a class with overwhelming power I'm exlvery dimension is just creating an unkillable player. Proc sets amplified any inherent imbalance, by giving the strongest classes sets that could buff less strong classes reasonably.

Why is the first point moot, anyone can not use proc sets but also anyone can not use strong class skills.
What I said was you have the option to complement your class weakness with sets to fill the holes. If you run ancestor silk you are not doing that. Like it is on live right now you are just buffing your skills and strengths that you already have. But you cant get utility that your class is lacking.

Classes being balanced on strengths and weaknesses would still be a thing as getting the same boni from sets is always a disadvantage.

Sadly we dont get any re-balance patches it seems, we went from test to test and havent had a good re-balance in a while

Gilvoth

spacefracking wrote: »

If ZOS ran a new test every like 2-3 months, I think anyone interested in competition would find it heavenly.
I hope zos tests some extended list next, then another extended list, then some other list, etc.
That's an interesting and fun game, and it will be balanced as people figure out each new meta.

that sounds awesome, lets start with testing the removal of animation canceling,
im sure many of us would love to see how that results as well, i know i would.

spacefracking wrote: »

Ballgroups could survive for 30 minutes against 50 people. This is gone. There are actual tactics, and not just luck, that can kill these players.
keeps the game fresh. This is fresh. People enjoy figuring out new builds, and this created those conditions.
There were a lot of classes that just couldn't compete with some classes that synergized with proc sets too well.
I can't help but think some people are upset because they aren't as good as they used to be. That's how regular balance patches go.

none of that is true, not a word of it.
the fact of the matter is that the only thing proc sets did was allow us users different choices in the way we dealt damage or the way we used defenses, nothing more.
as we can see right now with all proc sets disabled it proves that.
the same people still die to the same enemies. the people i used to allways kill still die to me, the same people that used to kill me still kill me, the same people that i stalemated with still stalemate me. the same people that run zergs still run zergs.
its all the same with or without proc sets.
the only thing proc sets did was give us choices in armor set ups.

VaranisArano

spacefracking wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Another reason for griping about the test that you don't mention is that many players assumed that no-procs would be around for three weeks to test the impact on performance, then ZOS would evaluate it. They tailored their feedback accordingly - performance certainly didn't improve.

Then they got blindsided by ZOS' choice to use the three-week test as a referendum on no-proc gameplay and to lock in no-procs for at least 6 months.

There was a poll, on here no less, during the test, which showed 80%+ of players preferred no proc. That was the feedback period, and the results were overwhelming.

I'm not sure you really understood what I was saying there. Yeah, during the test ZOS got tons of feedback from players who loved no-proc gameplay. Also, a lot of players who didn't like it didn't offer that feedback because they expected this to be a performance test, not a referendum on gameplay preferences.

Lo and behold, after ZOS announced that they'd heard great feedback about no-proc gameplay and we'd have it for at least 6 months, they heard enough feedback from the other side to backtrack, reinstate proc gameplay after 3 months, and promise that we'd get both options going forward.

No matter how "overwhelming" your forum poll was during the test, it's pretty clear that even ZOS no longer thinks that it's feedback was truly representative of the PVP community.

So it really doesn't matter if you think people who like proc sets make sense or not. By Q3 or so, you'll be in a no-proc campaign enjoying your favorite meta while they can have their proc set campaign and enjoy their meta.

AureleosRex

This fresh meta will only last for so long. People who are already experienced with the game and have played for multiple years aren't even going through this 'new' meta.

CP barely changed anything and it wont take long for people to notice.

As for 1vXers and ball groups being easier to kill?

They're not at all and I don't see any arguments people have made that make any sense regarding this claim.

It's easier than ever to make a tanky hybrid with access to lots of regen and raw stats.

Ball groups aren't going anywhere unless you stop AoE damage from being able to stack or add some serious diminishing returns for stacking AoE damage or healing.

NoSoup

spacefracking wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Another reason for griping about the test that you don't mention is that many players assumed that no-procs would be around for three weeks to test the impact on performance, then ZOS would evaluate it. They tailored their feedback accordingly - performance certainly didn't improve.

Then they got blindsided by ZOS' choice to use the three-week test as a referendum on no-proc gameplay and to lock in no-procs for at least 6 months.

There was a poll, on here no less, during the test, which showed 80%+ of players preferred no proc. That was the feedback period, and the results were overwhelming.

Elo106 wrote: »

Yes with procs you can make good classes to great builds but you can also make bad classes to playable builds.

Right now with just stat sets you cant compensate for lack of class utility. EG: your class lacks a burst heal you could get that from a set. You lack a hot you can get it from a set.

Thats why class imbalance wasnt as bad before now you have no way to compensate for class weaknesses

The first point is moot, imo, as no matter the meta, someone could always run 7-piece ancestor silk and a ruby ash frost staff.

Class utility, relatively speaking, is balanced based on their strengths and weaknesses. Making a class with overwhelming power I'm exlvery dimension is just creating an unkillable player. Proc sets amplified any inherent imbalance, by giving the strongest classes sets that could buff less strong classes reasonably.

Everyone agrees the game is unbalanced, bu it only takes people like 2 weeks of a new meta to find a build that can't be killed without several raids. It is incredibly unbalanced, and if we want it rebalanced, we need to see what the actual mechs are, rather than testing out each permutation of all of the hundreds of sets during pts.

biminirwb17_ESO wrote: »

My observation is many of those upset are relatively new to ESO. Have not experienced the introduction of the first CP system or the increase to cp160 weapons and armor. Remember when the twin sisters were two axes.

I've found more that it's old players who can't just run around anymore in an unkillable state. I think it's fair that 30 people can take a top notch ballgroup in 5-10 minutes now. Before, with vd, snow treaders, etc, the best ball groups could farm inside a keep for a half hour to an hour, until they got bored and leave. All without a single death.

When the test finished only 270 people had voted in that poll. No one can seriously claim "overhelming majority" on a poll of 270, what that tells us is most people didn't even care to vote (probably because they didn't want to get baited/bashed by the toxic players in the no proc crowd)....

UntouchableHunter

You guys most to stop judge players that like procs sets.

You guys call us new players or pve players.

I play since 2016 and 99%pvp.

And I don't care if you play meta or not.

This is your decision.

I don't care if you play meta sorc, you can pick everything you want.

I play stamdk in Cyrodill now because I feel my magdk lacking a lot.

I play magdk most in IC now because magdk needs proc sets to be close to the metas stamcro and Stamden.

So I really don't care if you

Gank
Zerg
Solo
Due
Procs
Stats
Werewolfs
Stamden
Stamcro
Meta stats sorcs
Ball groups

I really don't care. Do whatever is fun for you.

But please don't tell me the way I need to play to have fun
Don't take off my sets that I spent real money, time, game gold, transmutes, telvars, etc to get.

Have your fun and let me have my fun. If you don't like to fight with me with my procs, just don't fight me and have fun.

Feaky

Equipment hardly matters anymore. Aside of feeding tower trolls AP or PVDooring, most fights involve fighting in 40+ zergs or defending against 40+ zergs. With the amount of stacked heals and lag, those fights really suck and most involve spamming a button trying to get off an attack, cast a pot or sometimes even move. The most frustrating thing for me is when I hit zergs directly with meatbags and health bars don't even move. There is nothing fun about where cyro has evolved to in the past few weeks for me. It is just a laggy zerg fest when I play.

None of the guilds I am a member run cyro campaigns anymore other than a few occasional adhoc events, no one talks about pvp builds in guild chat or in our discord channel, and when I do log into my home campaign, its the same old players every night. No new players. Those who do not play wonder why I still play. It is essentially a dead game for most ESO players.

Proc sets had there issues, but theory crafting was fun. I hear folks say they made it too easy to kill people and others say you could have builds that allowed you absorb mega damage. The reality is proc sets provided players the ability to create unique and powerful builds and most of the gear was easily accessible to all players. Lazy players who put little effort into PVP would get wiped by those who carefully planned their builds and tested them in duels and trial dummies. IMO, that is the way it should be. Now we eliminated most sets to cater to those same lazy people who want everyone to wear the same meta and be "even", so essentially we catered to the crappy players at the cost of the players who put effort into the game. But guess what, crappy players still are crappy and good players are still good. With even a little effort, a crappy player could be good if they wanted to.

There are lots of other issues with cyro besides sets, in fact the biggest imo, the performance is still pathetic. Being in a zerg is still more important than being good. Stacked heals make you near invincible. There are still players that fight 10 people while taking little to no damage despite not playing any defense then dish out 10K diz swings. Nightcapping and pvdoor still are the keys to winning campaigns, stuck in combat bug still exists and can be extremely frustrating, ball groups still seem to inject lag wherever they go, etc. I'd rather ZOS focus on making some other improvements than nerf gear that many of us spent months farming or improving. It seems to me an easier fix would have been to address the OP sets (e.g. harbinger).

Anyways, I'm only doing tier 1 rewards in cyro now until the game becomes enjoyable again. It is simply not fun for me anymore.

vamp_emily

I think proc test validated my beliefs. Nightblades have been abused by ESO nerfs and all other classes outperform them.

Bring back 1 hit NBs because that is all we had. Lol at anyone who thinks cloak actually works against other classes. Most the skills have a very low chance of doing anything and combine that with lag.. ugh.

WolfyRaps

Feaky wrote: »

Equipment hardly matters anymore. Aside of feeding tower trolls AP or PVDooring, most fights involve fighting in 40+ zergs or defending against 40+ zergs. With the amount of stacked heals and lag, those fights really suck and most involve spamming a button trying to get off an attack, cast a pot or sometimes even move. The most frustrating thing for me is when I hit zergs directly with meatbags and health bars don't even move. There is nothing fun about where cyro has evolved to in the past few weeks for me. It is just a laggy zerg fest when I play.

None of the guilds I am a member run cyro campaigns anymore other than a few occasional adhoc events, no one talks about pvp builds in guild chat or in our discord channel, and when I do log into my home campaign, its the same old players every night. No new players. Those who do not play wonder why I still play. It is essentially a dead game for most ESO players.

Proc sets had there issues, but theory crafting was fun. I hear folks say they made it too easy to kill people and others say you could have builds that allowed you absorb mega damage. The reality is proc sets provided players the ability to create unique and powerful builds and most of the gear was easily accessible to all players. Lazy players who put little effort into PVP would get wiped by those who carefully planned their builds and tested them in duels and trial dummies. IMO, that is the way it should be. Now we eliminated most sets to cater to those same lazy people who want everyone to wear the same meta and be "even", so essentially we catered to the crappy players at the cost of the players who put effort into the game. But guess what, crappy players still are crappy and good players are still good. With even a little effort, a crappy player could be good if they wanted to.

There are lots of other issues with cyro besides sets, in fact the biggest imo, the performance is still pathetic. Being in a zerg is still more important than being good. Stacked heals make you near invincible. There are still players that fight 10 people while taking little to no damage despite not playing any defense then dish out 10K diz swings. Nightcapping and pvdoor still are the keys to winning campaigns, stuck in combat bug still exists and can be extremely frustrating, ball groups still seem to inject lag wherever they go, etc. I'd rather ZOS focus on making some other improvements than nerf gear that many of us spent months farming or improving. It seems to me an easier fix would have been to address the OP sets (e.g. harbinger).

Anyways, I'm only doing tier 1 rewards in cyro now until the game becomes enjoyable again. It is simply not fun for me anymore.

Very insightfull and exactly shares my thoughts...

@ZOS_GinaBruno, @ZOS_BrianWheeler please hear us !

xDeusEJRx

Feaky wrote: »

Equipment hardly matters anymore. Aside of feeding tower trolls AP or PVDooring, most fights involve fighting in 40+ zergs or defending against 40+ zergs. With the amount of stacked heals and lag, those fights really suck and most involve spamming a button trying to get off an attack, cast a pot or sometimes even move.

Proc sets had there issues, but theory crafting was fun. I hear folks say they made it too easy to kill people and others say you could have builds that allowed you absorb mega damage. The reality is proc sets provided players the ability to create unique and powerful builds and most of the gear was easily accessible to all players.

"Equipment hardly matters", isn't that a good thing though? Now that means new players don't have to grind their butts off to get a good build put together. Most of the good gear everyone ran was dungeon gear, trial gear, or arena gear. But a new player can't get this gear because most PVE'ers are quick to kick the noob from a dungeon or they won't let the low CP guy get in unless he's at least 3000 CP. Now this means low cps don't have to worry about running the same arena 50 times to get some bis staff, and even thing I doubt a new 160 can run most arenas.

" I hear folks say they made it too easy to kill people and others say you could have builds that allowed you absorb mega damage." This is true though, some people like to run crimson and chokethorn to keep themselves alive 24/7 because losing in PVP is such a detriment to some people. What good is running chokethorn which gives as much heals as a healing ulti with crimson which is a strong aoe heal. And while people can say "u can just avoid the crimson circle", you do realize the crimson users aren't dumb, they're gonna make sure you stand in it. Whether it be they keep gap close spamming you or using movement speed buffs to stay on top of you, it's not as easy as "jUSt dODgE lOL"

"easily accessible to all players.". No. A new 160 player cannot get access to Zaans, a perfected asylum two handed weapon, malestrom lightning staff, etc. You're telling me that all these meta gear is easier to get than a crafted hundings, julianos, shacklebreaker, etc?

I feel like some people advocating for procs to come back have this idea that PVP = gear, when that's not the case. You go into pvp to fight other players not to make sure you 7 beam gears, 7 heal gear, or 7 tank gear has 100% uptime and keeps you alive and beating other people in PVP. I get that having proc gear removed narrows the amount of sets you can use but a lot of issues we face won't be fixed with proc gear back. Zerging is still gonna happen(sure VD can break up zergs, but it's dependent on if the player is capable enough of pulling of a VD proc. There's tons more failed bombs vs successful ones), cross healing is still gonna allow zergs to keep each other alive, bad performance is still gonna disallow people to cast abilities sometimes, some classes are still gonna be better than others (and no procs don't balance classes, because the overperforming class can still run that same proc build and do it better than the worse off class).

Just because your countless gear runs were made useless doesn't mean PVP is dying, PVP is dying because the balance and performance is poor. Not because your shiny piece of metal isn't a viable setup anymore. If you can't actually play PVP and use your abilities then the game is dead not because your gear's rendered redundant

PirateShaped

Any time you stare at a death recap, you're accountable for whatever you see.

Certain builds, especially the small scale meta git gud ones, get exposed by some of the highly controversial proc setups. Those same setups get wrecked and embarrassed often though in other situations.

Take Harbringer 50k+HP Necros, since they seem to come up often. They don't just go around the map destroying everything. If you spend all your time in a resource tower dueling people, you will likely never see the weak points of these other builds. I remember when Malacath came out, everyone stopped stacking so much impen. It was like shooting fish in a barrel. Every setup has weaknesses. That's why I like ESO. Years of sweaty meta pvp in other games, it just gets so stale after a while.

Fix BG's/IC or make some place where people can have organized competitive meta. Cyrodiil is the wild west.

Jaraal

Feaky wrote: »

Proc sets had there issues, but theory crafting was fun. I hear folks say they made it too easy to kill people and others say you could have builds that allowed you absorb mega damage. The reality is proc sets provided players the ability to create unique and powerful builds and most of the gear was easily accessible to all players. Lazy players who put little effort into PVP would get wiped by those who carefully planned their builds and tested them in duels and trial dummies. IMO, that is the way it should be. Now we eliminated most sets to cater to those same lazy people who want everyone to wear the same meta and be "even", so essentially we catered to the crappy players at the cost of the players who put effort into the game. But guess what, crappy players still are crappy and good players are still good. With even a little effort, a crappy player could be good if they wanted to.

Well said.

The same gear was available to everyone before ZOS took it away from us, and now 19 complete sets are available to everyone. So if someone says their game play is better now than before, it simply means they either didn't want to or didn't know how to make the best selections when the entire game gear library was available to use.

It's still the same people on the leaderboards in no proc as it was with procs enabled. So I would say those who are finding Cyrodiil "easier" now should perhaps look within to find out why.

neferpitou73

spacefracking wrote: »

Ballgroups could survive for 30 minutes against 50 people. This is gone. There are actual tactics, and not just luck, that can kill these players.

I lead ballgroups, and I honestly don't see any tactics used against us, save by other ballgroups. The only way we are killed is when opposing factions shove enough bodies at us. Honestly it's just not fun to play in, whether we're the ones zerging by necessity or are getting zerged down.

I saw this coming the minute ZoS implemented their decision. Without proc heals like Earthgore, buff sets like Gossamer, Sanctuary, etc, the only way people could survive is by grouping together and massing heals or by building tankier (we're now seeing CP level HP in no-CP to compensate). We now regularly have 40 player zergs running from keep to keep and ZoS took away all of our tools to deal with them, namely VD.

gronoxvx

neferpitou73 wrote: »

We now regularly have 40 player zergs running from keep to keep and ZoS took away all of our tools to deal with them, namely VD.

This is all cyro is on xbox na at the moment. I dont mind the removal of procs even though i main a bomber as its forcing me to go and try something different. But this combined with bringing back cross healing causes so much faction stacking, causing performance to be the worst ive experienced. it has made me not want to step foot in cyro at all.

NeillMcAttack

neferpitou73 wrote: »

spacefracking wrote: »

Ballgroups could survive for 30 minutes against 50 people. This is gone. There are actual tactics, and not just luck, that can kill these players.

I lead ballgroups, and I honestly don't see any tactics used against us, save by other ballgroups. The only way we are killed is when opposing factions shove enough bodies at us. Honestly it's just not fun to play in, whether we're the ones zerging by necessity or are getting zerged down.

I saw this coming the minute ZoS implemented their decision. Without proc heals like Earthgore, buff sets like Gossamer, Sanctuary, etc, the only way people could survive is by grouping together and massing heals or by building tankier (we're now seeing CP level HP in no-CP to compensate). We now regularly have 40 player zergs running from keep to keep and ZoS took away all of our tools to deal with them, namely VD.

What “tactics” do proc sets offer that can’t be achieved without?
Vicious death is not a “tactic” it’s just free damage you put on your mag DD’s for more AOE burst.
What do you mean that without earth gore and other proc sets the only way of surviving is grouping together and massing heals?
Grouping together and massing heals is exactly the ballgroup strategy, and it is the same with or without procs!!
How else to you expect PUGs to deal with a co-ordinated group that moves together and is actively communicating together other than overwhelming them?
That has always been the way, no meta has ever changed that!

Everything is relative. You say that VD is the only way to deal with ZERGS, whereby other say it’s the only way to deal with Ballgroups. Everyone’s damage went up this patch, so did their heals, and their health. It is all relative.

It’s quite obvious to me that people are just not used to playing without their carry sets as the OP explains, and I worry that they just haven’t given this meta a chance. For not a single person to bring up how powerful player abilities are now instead of the gear they are wearing is bonkers. Nova bombs have never been stronger, trade off in set choice has never mattered more, magicka executes have never been more prevalent (ie mages wrath and radiant oppression). These choices are the definition of organized and skillful gameplay that these groups always claim pursue. I guess it’s obvious that they just want the game to be easier, that is what makes it fun for them.


This Meta feels more like my choice of abilities actually matters. I actually need to slot more than two damage abilities plus Ulti to kill people. My sets aren’t doing more than my abilities and it feels great.

People, learn what your class does. Learn about their passives, what they can offer a group. Fill the gaps with abilities instead of sets. It really does play better and feels more rewarding. Just give it a chance.

WolfyRaps

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

neferpitou73 wrote: »

spacefracking wrote: »

Ballgroups could survive for 30 minutes against 50 people. This is gone. There are actual tactics, and not just luck, that can kill these players.

I lead ballgroups, and I honestly don't see any tactics used against us, save by other ballgroups. The only way we are killed is when opposing factions shove enough bodies at us. Honestly it's just not fun to play in, whether we're the ones zerging by necessity or are getting zerged down.

I saw this coming the minute ZoS implemented their decision. Without proc heals like Earthgore, buff sets like Gossamer, Sanctuary, etc, the only way people could survive is by grouping together and massing heals or by building tankier (we're now seeing CP level HP in no-CP to compensate). We now regularly have 40 player zergs running from keep to keep and ZoS took away all of our tools to deal with them, namely VD.

What “tactics” do proc sets offer that can’t be achieved without?
Vicious death is not a “tactic” it’s just free damage you put on your mag DD’s for more AOE burst.
What do you mean that without earth gore and other proc sets the only way of surviving is grouping together and massing heals?
Grouping together and massing heals is exactly the ballgroup strategy, and it is the same with or without procs!!
How else to you expect PUGs to deal with a co-ordinated group that moves together and is actively communicating together other than overwhelming them?
That has always been the way, no meta has ever changed that!

Everything is relative. You say that VD is the only way to deal with ZERGS, whereby other say it’s the only way to deal with Ballgroups. Everyone’s damage went up this patch, so did their heals, and their health. It is all relative.

It’s quite obvious to me that people are just not used to playing without their carry sets as the OP explains, and I worry that they just haven’t given this meta a chance. For not a single person to bring up how powerful player abilities are now instead of the gear they are wearing is bonkers. Nova bombs have never been stronger, trade off in set choice has never mattered more, magicka executes have never been more prevalent (ie mages wrath and radiant oppression). These choices are the definition of organized and skillful gameplay that these groups always claim pursue. I guess it’s obvious that they just want the game to be easier, that is what makes it fun for them.


This Meta feels more like my choice of abilities actually matters. I actually need to slot more than two damage abilities plus Ulti to kill people. My sets aren’t doing more than my abilities and it feels great.

People, learn what your class does. Learn about their passives, what they can offer a group. Fill the gaps with abilities instead of sets. It really does play better and feels more rewarding. Just give it a chance.

There is no chance to be given to this broken meta by a solo player exept to get your tier 1 geod and sometimes log magsorc and snipe non tanks from and distance and laugh.

As I said in another thread this "no proc" meta favours greatly classes that naturally scale well with stats and not with procs. I proposed to test a meta in which only with elf bane and grothar are allowed and see which class raises at the top of the food chain in Cyro PVP (I suppose MagDK..).

They have broken the whole game and semblance of balance by reverting the gear back 7 years but not touching the classes that naturally evolved and were balanced with gear choices from the whole game.

neferpitou73

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

neferpitou73 wrote: »

spacefracking wrote: »

Ballgroups could survive for 30 minutes against 50 people. This is gone. There are actual tactics, and not just luck, that can kill these players.

I lead ballgroups, and I honestly don't see any tactics used against us, save by other ballgroups. The only way we are killed is when opposing factions shove enough bodies at us. Honestly it's just not fun to play in, whether we're the ones zerging by necessity or are getting zerged down.

I saw this coming the minute ZoS implemented their decision. Without proc heals like Earthgore, buff sets like Gossamer, Sanctuary, etc, the only way people could survive is by grouping together and massing heals or by building tankier (we're now seeing CP level HP in no-CP to compensate). We now regularly have 40 player zergs running from keep to keep and ZoS took away all of our tools to deal with them, namely VD.

What “tactics” do proc sets offer that can’t be achieved without?
Vicious death is not a “tactic” it’s just free damage you put on your mag DD’s for more AOE burst.
What do you mean that without earth gore and other proc sets the only way of surviving is grouping together and massing heals?
Grouping together and massing heals is exactly the ballgroup strategy, and it is the same with or without procs!!
How else to you expect PUGs to deal with a co-ordinated group that moves together and is actively communicating together other than overwhelming them?
That has always been the way, no meta has ever changed that!

Everything is relative. You say that VD is the only way to deal with ZERGS, whereby other say it’s the only way to deal with Ballgroups. Everyone’s damage went up this patch, so did their heals, and their health. It is all relative.

I'll take this one thing at a time.

First of all VD is as dangerous to Ball groups as it is to zergs. In fact, aside from other ball groups or mass zerging without procs it's the most effective tool to counter to ball groups. To say that it's just "free damage" and not tactical is an insult to good bombers who know how to position themselves, and know what sets and skill combinations to use to wipe entire groups. In fact I'd argue that vicious death is not as effective in ball groups as it is on single bombers working against them. I pity people trying to bomb right now.

Grouping together and mass healing is the ball group strategy, as it should be in any team oriented game mode. The issue right now is that with the removal of proc sets ZoS has nerfed group healing and damage to the point where it incentivizes 40 players to stack together, and in some campaigns these faction stacks are on the same discord. So instead of tiny 12-man coordinated groups we now have 40-man groups going from keep to keep rolling over everyone. As awful as it was getting destroyed/farmed by ball groups, this is even less fun since there is no longer any effective counter to this. If you're on a low pop faction then you're out of luck and heaven forbid that zerg get the hammer.

I'm also always a bit confused by the complaint that uncoordinated pugs do worse than coordinated groups. Of course they do. It's a team oriented, objective based game mode.

Joy_Division

WolfyRaps wrote: »

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

neferpitou73 wrote: »

spacefracking wrote: »

Ballgroups could survive for 30 minutes against 50 people. This is gone. There are actual tactics, and not just luck, that can kill these players.

I lead ballgroups, and I honestly don't see any tactics used against us, save by other ballgroups. The only way we are killed is when opposing factions shove enough bodies at us. Honestly it's just not fun to play in, whether we're the ones zerging by necessity or are getting zerged down.

I saw this coming the minute ZoS implemented their decision. Without proc heals like Earthgore, buff sets like Gossamer, Sanctuary, etc, the only way people could survive is by grouping together and massing heals or by building tankier (we're now seeing CP level HP in no-CP to compensate). We now regularly have 40 player zergs running from keep to keep and ZoS took away all of our tools to deal with them, namely VD.

What “tactics” do proc sets offer that can’t be achieved without?
Vicious death is not a “tactic” it’s just free damage you put on your mag DD’s for more AOE burst.
What do you mean that without earth gore and other proc sets the only way of surviving is grouping together and massing heals?
Grouping together and massing heals is exactly the ballgroup strategy, and it is the same with or without procs!!
How else to you expect PUGs to deal with a co-ordinated group that moves together and is actively communicating together other than overwhelming them?
That has always been the way, no meta has ever changed that!

Everything is relative. You say that VD is the only way to deal with ZERGS, whereby other say it’s the only way to deal with Ballgroups. Everyone’s damage went up this patch, so did their heals, and their health. It is all relative.

It’s quite obvious to me that people are just not used to playing without their carry sets as the OP explains, and I worry that they just haven’t given this meta a chance. For not a single person to bring up how powerful player abilities are now instead of the gear they are wearing is bonkers. Nova bombs have never been stronger, trade off in set choice has never mattered more, magicka executes have never been more prevalent (ie mages wrath and radiant oppression). These choices are the definition of organized and skillful gameplay that these groups always claim pursue. I guess it’s obvious that they just want the game to be easier, that is what makes it fun for them.


This Meta feels more like my choice of abilities actually matters. I actually need to slot more than two damage abilities plus Ulti to kill people. My sets aren’t doing more than my abilities and it feels great.

People, learn what your class does. Learn about their passives, what they can offer a group. Fill the gaps with abilities instead of sets. It really does play better and feels more rewarding. Just give it a chance.

There is no chance to be given to this broken meta by a solo player exept to get your tier 1 geod and sometimes log magsorc and snipe non tanks from and distance and laugh.

As I said in another thread this "no proc" meta favours greatly classes that naturally scale well with stats and not with procs. I proposed to test a meta in which only with elf bane and grothar are allowed and see which class raises at the top of the food chain in Cyro PVP (I suppose MagDK..).

They have broken the whole game and semblance of balance by reverting the gear back 7 years but not touching the classes that naturally evolved and were balanced with gear choices from the whole game.

By "naturally evolved" I am guessing you mean nerfed the crap out of my class under the thinking that if I wear a certain gear set, I can get some of that power back. Gonna have to give a big thumbs down to that sort of "balancing" philosophy. It's patently obvious playing with no procs that certain classes/specs are just way better on their own and thus not dependent on buying DLCs, farming, or having to wear specific gear.

I don't like that ZOs basically put in the trash 95% of my gear options, but let's not pretend for a second that somehow if I was allowed access to that gear, Cyrodiil is at a solid foundation and everything would be fine if only there wasn't any lag.

BardInSolitude

Ball-v-ball combat has actually not drastically changed in terms of tactics because all of us guilds who run ball groups often have simply made new builds to run. What has changed is Cyrodiil itself, which encourages players to stack in overwhelming numbers while not giving us options to counter them, even in defense. I personally think that "zerging", as it is called, is a valid strategy but often real wars have been won by sides with far fewer numbers but with better technology and tactics, so where is that representation in game?

Zergs, by definition, have unoptimised compositions (realistically they don't even have a composition) and do not group up neatly (otherwise they are a really large ball group), but when the margin between good and bad equipment is non-existent only the choice of skills can have some impact on gameplay. Since it doesn't take a genius to use Echoing Vigor, Regen, Destro, etc, you see loads of people running around using these skills and Cyrodiil has now been reduced to a game of numbers. Obviously a ball group would still beat any time an similarly sized or somewhat larger enemy zerg, so it's not like we don't have any theorycrafting avenues to gain advantage over the zergs, but they are massively limited for sure.

Perhaps the change we need in the no-proc context is a removal of cross-healing. Although the real change we need is to go back to September 2020, before all this nonsense began in the first place. I miss getting my entire raid bombed by Icehouse when chilling by a Dolmen, damn it!

NeillMcAttack

WolfyRaps wrote: »

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

neferpitou73 wrote: »

spacefracking wrote: »

Ballgroups could survive for 30 minutes against 50 people. This is gone. There are actual tactics, and not just luck, that can kill these players.

I lead ballgroups, and I honestly don't see any tactics used against us, save by other ballgroups. The only way we are killed is when opposing factions shove enough bodies at us. Honestly it's just not fun to play in, whether we're the ones zerging by necessity or are getting zerged down.

I saw this coming the minute ZoS implemented their decision. Without proc heals like Earthgore, buff sets like Gossamer, Sanctuary, etc, the only way people could survive is by grouping together and massing heals or by building tankier (we're now seeing CP level HP in no-CP to compensate). We now regularly have 40 player zergs running from keep to keep and ZoS took away all of our tools to deal with them, namely VD.

What “tactics” do proc sets offer that can’t be achieved without?
Vicious death is not a “tactic” it’s just free damage you put on your mag DD’s for more AOE burst.
What do you mean that without earth gore and other proc sets the only way of surviving is grouping together and massing heals?
Grouping together and massing heals is exactly the ballgroup strategy, and it is the same with or without procs!!
How else to you expect PUGs to deal with a co-ordinated group that moves together and is actively communicating together other than overwhelming them?
That has always been the way, no meta has ever changed that!

Everything is relative. You say that VD is the only way to deal with ZERGS, whereby other say it’s the only way to deal with Ballgroups. Everyone’s damage went up this patch, so did their heals, and their health. It is all relative.

It’s quite obvious to me that people are just not used to playing without their carry sets as the OP explains, and I worry that they just haven’t given this meta a chance. For not a single person to bring up how powerful player abilities are now instead of the gear they are wearing is bonkers. Nova bombs have never been stronger, trade off in set choice has never mattered more, magicka executes have never been more prevalent (ie mages wrath and radiant oppression). These choices are the definition of organized and skillful gameplay that these groups always claim pursue. I guess it’s obvious that they just want the game to be easier, that is what makes it fun for them.


This Meta feels more like my choice of abilities actually matters. I actually need to slot more than two damage abilities plus Ulti to kill people. My sets aren’t doing more than my abilities and it feels great.

People, learn what your class does. Learn about their passives, what they can offer a group. Fill the gaps with abilities instead of sets. It really does play better and feels more rewarding. Just give it a chance.

There is no chance to be given to this broken meta by a solo player exept to get your tier 1 geod and sometimes log magsorc and snipe non tanks from and distance and laugh.

As I said in another thread this "no proc" meta favours greatly classes that naturally scale well with stats and not with procs. I proposed to test a meta in which only with elf bane and grothar are allowed and see which class raises at the top of the food chain in Cyro PVP (I suppose MagDK..).

They have broken the whole game and semblance of balance by reverting the gear back 7 years but not touching the classes that naturally evolved and were balanced with gear choices from the whole game.

What? It’s dark conversion and streak that makes a mag sorc so strong. Nothing to do with the sets, every class scales with stats. I have seen extremely strong players on every class in Cyro the past few weeks. Mag temps carrying groups of players. Stam blades with insane burst, mag blades with huge self heals and strong pressure builds, DK’s that are insanely tanky with massive burst, mag wardens actually doing work with their abilities and not needing to rely on 45k hp builds, Stam temps that can out run anyone thanks to that frustrating eclipse spell, and yes, even very strong mag DK’s using wings and chains to apply the strongest dots available outside venomous claw (that frankly has too big a ramp up to be reliable, but when it does get there it ticks HARD).

If you think everyone running around last patch with Zaan, malacath, and Vat destro, regardless of class, regardless wether mag or stam, had more variety than this patch, you have a very short memory. And then the extra 10 set pieces available went to unleashed, crimson, Alessian or syvarra’s, again, regardless of class, or whether vamp or werewolf.

Let me ask you, why to you use Grothdar instead of Zaan? Zaan is stronger right? It’s because ZOS nerfed the Zaan + elf bane combo isn’t it! And that is a prime example of the road we were headed. Sets being balanced against other sets. Sets getting nerfed or changed because other sets were released. How can we have class balance when it’s the sets that do everything? How can you complain about class balance and not want a playstyle that allows classes to be able to explore their strengths and weaknesses? Would you prefer ZOS spent all their time balancing sets instead of working on classes and abilities? I would rather know what fight I am taking knowing the other classes, than get surprised by an unleashed, Zaan, merciless charge, mega tank while on a class without a purge. The enemies class being irrelevant because abilities don’t matter at all and everyone can build tanky!

neferpitou73

[\quote] If you think everyone running around last patch with Zaan, malacath, and Vat destro, regardless of class, regardless wether mag or stam, had more variety than this patch, you have a very short memory. And then the extra 10 set pieces available went to unleashed, crimson, Alessian or syvarra’s, again, regardless of class, or whether vamp or werewolf. [\quote]

To my knowledge no-one outside of small scale 1vXers use these sets. I've never used these sets. Most ball groups don't run these sets because they aren't useful outside of certain specific situations. The correct solution to the people that run them is ignore them.

The simple solution was for ZoS to have nerfed the couple sets that were overperforming instead of taking away 90% of build diversity.

IAmIcehouse

I am enjoying the meta itself. Obligatory sorcs are hella annoying, but the meta is much better than it was before.

But overall, I find solo Cyrodil far more boring with absolutely no theorycrafting options. Theorycrafting builds was probably 75% of the fun, changing builds weekly. It was also a fun part of PVP to try to figure out someone's gear to better play against it mid fight, makes PVP more dynamic. Think they are running clever alch? Hear that pot go off, roll HoTs, go defensive and CC them after inmov immunity drains.

I'm not sure why the community has accepted this black and white solution of "all bad/all good". There are like ten (maybe fifteen) sets that have plagued Cyrodiil for the past 6 months. Where is our nuance? "Proc" sets didn't ruin Cyrodil PVP. A handful of unbalanced sets did.

Inb4 "it's unrealistic for these sets to all be balanced, we've been asking for 8 months. This is an easier option". That should not be something anyone accepts from a balance team.

WolfyRaps

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

WolfyRaps wrote: »

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

neferpitou73 wrote: »

spacefracking wrote: »

Ballgroups could survive for 30 minutes against 50 people. This is gone. There are actual tactics, and not just luck, that can kill these players.

I lead ballgroups, and I honestly don't see any tactics used against us, save by other ballgroups. The only way we are killed is when opposing factions shove enough bodies at us. Honestly it's just not fun to play in, whether we're the ones zerging by necessity or are getting zerged down.

I saw this coming the minute ZoS implemented their decision. Without proc heals like Earthgore, buff sets like Gossamer, Sanctuary, etc, the only way people could survive is by grouping together and massing heals or by building tankier (we're now seeing CP level HP in no-CP to compensate). We now regularly have 40 player zergs running from keep to keep and ZoS took away all of our tools to deal with them, namely VD.

What “tactics” do proc sets offer that can’t be achieved without?
Vicious death is not a “tactic” it’s just free damage you put on your mag DD’s for more AOE burst.
What do you mean that without earth gore and other proc sets the only way of surviving is grouping together and massing heals?
Grouping together and massing heals is exactly the ballgroup strategy, and it is the same with or without procs!!
How else to you expect PUGs to deal with a co-ordinated group that moves together and is actively communicating together other than overwhelming them?
That has always been the way, no meta has ever changed that!

Everything is relative. You say that VD is the only way to deal with ZERGS, whereby other say it’s the only way to deal with Ballgroups. Everyone’s damage went up this patch, so did their heals, and their health. It is all relative.

It’s quite obvious to me that people are just not used to playing without their carry sets as the OP explains, and I worry that they just haven’t given this meta a chance. For not a single person to bring up how powerful player abilities are now instead of the gear they are wearing is bonkers. Nova bombs have never been stronger, trade off in set choice has never mattered more, magicka executes have never been more prevalent (ie mages wrath and radiant oppression). These choices are the definition of organized and skillful gameplay that these groups always claim pursue. I guess it’s obvious that they just want the game to be easier, that is what makes it fun for them.


This Meta feels more like my choice of abilities actually matters. I actually need to slot more than two damage abilities plus Ulti to kill people. My sets aren’t doing more than my abilities and it feels great.

People, learn what your class does. Learn about their passives, what they can offer a group. Fill the gaps with abilities instead of sets. It really does play better and feels more rewarding. Just give it a chance.

There is no chance to be given to this broken meta by a solo player exept to get your tier 1 geod and sometimes log magsorc and snipe non tanks from and distance and laugh.

As I said in another thread this "no proc" meta favours greatly classes that naturally scale well with stats and not with procs. I proposed to test a meta in which only with elf bane and grothar are allowed and see which class raises at the top of the food chain in Cyro PVP (I suppose MagDK..).

They have broken the whole game and semblance of balance by reverting the gear back 7 years but not touching the classes that naturally evolved and were balanced with gear choices from the whole game.

What? It’s dark conversion and streak that makes a mag sorc so strong. Nothing to do with the sets, every class scales with stats. I have seen extremely strong players on every class in Cyro the past few weeks. Mag temps carrying groups of players. Stam blades with insane burst, mag blades with huge self heals and strong pressure builds, DK’s that are insanely tanky with massive burst, mag wardens actually doing work with their abilities and not needing to rely on 45k hp builds, Stam temps that can out run anyone thanks to that frustrating eclipse spell, and yes, even very strong mag DK’s using wings and chains to apply the strongest dots available outside venomous claw (that frankly has too big a ramp up to be reliable, but when it does get there it ticks HARD).

If you think everyone running around last patch with Zaan, malacath, and Vat destro, regardless of class, regardless wether mag or stam, had more variety than this patch, you have a very short memory. And then the extra 10 set pieces available went to unleashed, crimson, Alessian or syvarra’s, again, regardless of class, or whether vamp or werewolf.

Let me ask you, why to you use Grothdar instead of Zaan? Zaan is stronger right? It’s because ZOS nerfed the Zaan + elf bane combo isn’t it! And that is a prime example of the road we were headed. Sets being balanced against other sets. Sets getting nerfed or changed because other sets were released. How can we have class balance when it’s the sets that do everything? How can you complain about class balance and not want a playstyle that allows classes to be able to explore their strengths and weaknesses? Would you prefer ZOS spent all their time balancing sets instead of working on classes and abilities? I would rather know what fight I am taking knowing the other classes, than get surprised by an unleashed, Zaan, merciless charge, mega tank while on a class without a purge. The enemies class being irrelevant because abilities don’t matter at all and everyone can build tanky!

Class matters a lot and determines the sets you use in order to be effective in a specfic situation.

Sorcs dont need to use proc (or cant use proc sets like Grothar or Zaan) in order to be effective. And this is ok because it balances them implicitly when the other classes without steak can get the weapons to deal with them. I do not want to see a sorc nerf based on this joke of a meta from 7 years ago that is Cyro atm. I want classes to keep their identity!

All proc sets you name have a counter and to be honest I never lost a duel to anyone using unleashed/merciless even without a purge..

A proc set doesn't make or break a good or a shity player. For example im quite new on magblade and even with zaan/calurion I lose horribly to any good player that i beat or go toe to toe with on any of my other characters. Proc sets simply offer playstyle choices, theorycrafting opportunities and are honestly fun..