stealth on stamblade should have drawbacks

Noctus

the Stamina Nightblade is allready benefitting from rolldodge mechanic and the agility of middle armor. the fact that they can turn invisible multiple times during combat takes away the advantage of playing magicka nightblade.

i would say give shadowy disguise some sort of stamina debuff so if stealth is used then rolldodges gonna be extremly costly for the next seconds. this will also hit magblades but since rolldodge isnt the main defense of a magblade it will work out.

edit:
allright another idea how about making cloak last shorter the less magicka u have so that when u have 35 k magicka u get the full duration and at 15 k its only a second.

rbfrgsp

Roll yourself a stamblade. Try and let cloak carry you through some combat. Come back here and report on what you've learned.

deleted221106-002999

LOL

The drawbacks to stealth are too many to mention but resolve to essentially anything/everything will pull you out of stealth.

JayKwellen

It's already over 4k mag, which is a drawback in and of itself for most stamblades. It's also easily broken by anything and everything, even your own DoTs will break it and pull you out of it, and if you're trying to spam it from melee range defensively (which you should never be doing anyway) it's a roll of the dice whether it will even work at all.

Plus your suggested 'solution' would also kill magblades. Seeing as magblades typically have to be close range for CC, ultimates, and burst, that also means they need more stamina for both breaking free and rolling. Make cloak cost stamina too and you might as well just tell the last three dudes in Cyrodiil maining magblades to find a new class and delete it from the game altogether.

Rhaegar75

Are NBs a true pain in the ass? Totally
Stealthy NBs are as annoying as hell but I truly don’t think their skills, including stealth, are overturned at all.

When I fight a NB it’s kill or get killed: I don’t get the feeling the odds of the fight are in favour of my opponent just because they are playing an OP class (like wardens......😳....for example).

I’d say let NBs play like NBs and may the best player win.

Fawn4287

Magblades running and basically spamming cloak is fine as most are either built half way to a PvE tank or a super glass cannon with no form of defejce . The deathstroke 20% damage buff is far too strong considering the nerfs all major buffs took and its obscenely low cost meaning every burst combo is hitting 20% harder. In this meta the nightblade weave damage output is so high that 1v1 its hard to go on the offence against them and the moment you turn to start damaging them they reapply vigor, dodge roll, hit cloak or shade/cloak and then its up to them when and if they want to restart the fight. People keep saying everything breaks cloak! No it doesn’t and if so they can simply vigor, roll and cloak again, you won’t hit a lucky aoe against a decent stamblade twice and “run detect pots”, so the stamblade gets to dump another tri pot then roll and sprint for 10 seconds till detect runs out then you are now with no detect and no major vitality, endurance or intellect.

baselesschart

Fawn4287 wrote: »

Magblades running and basically spamming cloak is fine as most are either built half way to a PvE tank or a super glass cannon with no form of defejce . The deathstroke 20% damage buff is far too strong considering the nerfs all major buffs took and its obscenely low cost meaning every burst combo is hitting 20% harder. In this meta the nightblade weave damage output is so high that 1v1 its hard to go on the offence against them and the moment you turn to start damaging them they reapply vigor, dodge roll, hit cloak or shade/cloak and then its up to them when and if they want to restart the fight. People keep saying everything breaks cloak! No it doesn’t and if so they can simply vigor, roll and cloak again, you won’t hit a lucky aoe against a decent stamblade twice and “run detect pots”, so the stamblade gets to dump another tri pot then roll and sprint for 10 seconds till detect runs out then you are now with no detect and no major vitality, endurance or intellect.

The twenty percent increase from the ult is big yes, however nearly all of nightblade's abilities are single target non-dot abilities, which means they are super easy to avoid. I sometimes miss combos more than I land them because of how easy it is to avoid a nightblade combo. When you're outnumbered, yes it seems like everything breaks cloak, its so unreliable when you have several people on you. In a 1v1 I can see where you're coming from, but good nightblades will not rely on cloak the way you have described.

lurkin777

Stealth sucks for my stamina NB. It is to short and cost to much.

NBs take a lot of damage easily. Their damage is not that great either.

Jackey

The old school stamina gankblades are back and they are everywhere.
While they can drop your health in one second with a perfect combo, you can probably do the same thing to them with a less perfect combo.

I did try this playstyle once. I didn't really like it, too much waiting for an opportunity -> hit and run and also having nothing to support my teammates.
I don't think they need any nerfs at all.

Deathlord92

You won’t get anywhere with cloak alone. 1v1 your either running shade with cloak or no cloak at all or 1vx your always keeping your shade up to escape line of sight then cloak.

divnyi

techyeshic wrote: »

[Quoted post was removed]

It's not too easy to counter, but cloak is limiting what you can safely do. If you apply dots, you need to kill the target, otherwise your cloaks will be interrupted by your own damage. So either you don't slot dots (which is major source of burst stacking damage with powerful proc sets, limiting you to pure damage bursts), or you just forget that your cloak exists for N seconds after you entered the fight.

And oh, counter-NB builds do exist. Especially if not 1vs1.

fred4

Noctus wrote: »

i would say give shadowy disguise some sort of stamina debuff so if stealth is used then rolldodges gonna be extremly costly for the next seconds. this will also hit magblades but since rolldodge isnt the main defense of a magblade it will work out.

I main a magblade [snip] Having stamina sustain for roll dodging is one of the best and most fun ways to play magblade. For melee magblade it's mandatory, but I have found stam sustain a general problem on magicka classes and one of the reasons stamina overperforms - which we seem to agree on. ZOS have finally, finally acknowledged that and given light armor dodge roll cost reduction, increased values on Well-Fitted and increased your default stam pool. Now you come up with this idea? It's a "no" from me. Please play the current meta for a while. Impregnable is quickly becoming the go to set. One of the upsides is that you can generously spec into Well-Fitted. This benefits light armor wearers as it does medium ones. If you're looking for parity, we're in a very reasonable place already.

[Edited to remove Baiting]

fred4

Fawn4287 wrote: »

The deathstroke 20% damage buff is far too strong considering the nerfs all major buffs took and its obscenely low cost meaning every burst combo is hitting 20% harder.

[snip] Exactly what burst combo are you talking about? Nightblade famously does not have delayed burst skills. It does have Grim Focus, but that skill has the same delay that ultimates have. Combining the two does not result in a single GCD combo, like other classes have. Sure you can combine the ulti with your spammable or execute, or you can do the same with Grim Focus, but you cannot actually combine Grim Focus with the ultimate in one GCD. I suppose you can avail of the stun with Incap, but nightblades are complaining that targets are able to break free before Grim Focus hits.

What nightblades have is a window of intense pressure, but they don't really have burst in the literal sense. That's the way Death Stroke was designed, that's why it's cheap and that's why it seems insanely overloaded, when you look at it in isolation. It's cheap and it gives it's 20% damage bonus in lieu of nightblade having skills like Mage's Wrath, Haunting Curse, Power of the Light, Blastbones or Sub Assault. The only comparable class is DK and, guess what, Leap is one powerful, overloaded ultimate as well, because that's how those classes were designed. Incidentally, your reaction to getting Incapped should be to dodge roll. In the current meta I can recommend Well-Fitted Impregnable armor and you'll frustrate the crap out of nightblades.

In this meta the nightblade weave damage output is so high that 1v1 its hard to go on the offence against them and the moment you turn to start damaging them they reapply vigor, dodge roll, hit cloak or shade/cloak and then its up to them when and if they want to restart the fight. People keep saying everything breaks cloak! No it doesn’t and if so they can simply vigor, roll and cloak again, you won’t hit a lucky aoe against a decent stamblade twice and “run detect pots”, so the stamblade gets to dump another tri pot then roll and sprint for 10 seconds till detect runs out then you are now with no detect and no major vitality, endurance or intellect.

If the stamblade is good, this can happen. I note what you're describing here is a prolonged fight. So I presume you survive and you're merely annoyed? Isn't that what nightblades are supposed to be like to fight? One good leap from a DK and many nightblades are dead, though. A well-played sorc is also a nightmare. I fear Streak and Lightning Form more than anything, albeit I'm talking about my magblade here. It does take a knack to actively go after nightblades, but I can assure you that some people have this down to a T, because I've been on the receiving end of it and I'm pretty damn good at evading people usually. I really mean this. Once I run into such people it's like a night and day difference to the average player and I think it comes down to their experience [snip]

[Edited to remove Baiting]

Noctus

fred4 wrote: »

Noctus wrote: »

i would say give shadowy disguise some sort of stamina debuff so if stealth is used then rolldodges gonna be extremly costly for the next seconds. this will also hit magblades but since rolldodge isnt the main defense of a magblade it will work out.

I main a magblade and I really, really hope you're trolling. Having stamina sustain for roll dodging is one of the best and most fun ways to play magblade. For melee magblade it's mandatory, but I have found stam sustain a general problem on magicka classes and one of the reasons stamina overperforms - which we seem to agree on. ZOS have finally, finally acknowledged that and given light armor dodge roll cost reduction, increased values on Well-Fitted and increased your default stam pool. Now you come up with this idea? It's a "no" from me. Please play the current meta for a while. Impregnable is quickly becoming the go to set. One of the upsides is that you can generously spec into Well-Fitted. This benefits light armor wearers as it does medium ones. If you're looking for parity, we're in a very reasonable place already.

dont get me wrong im just making a suggestion. the problem is the extra speed + dodgeroll stamblade has in advantage towards magblade as u know its way easier to cloak away if u do a few dodgerolls.

the medium armor stamina speed and mitigation combined with the ability to use cloak frequently is just screwed everyone is better of playing stamina nb at this point. cloak should pay of more when played by magicka user.

fred4

Noctus wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

Noctus wrote: »

i would say give shadowy disguise some sort of stamina debuff so if stealth is used then rolldodges gonna be extremly costly for the next seconds. this will also hit magblades but since rolldodge isnt the main defense of a magblade it will work out.

I main a magblade and I really, really hope you're trolling. Having stamina sustain for roll dodging is one of the best and most fun ways to play magblade. For melee magblade it's mandatory, but I have found stam sustain a general problem on magicka classes and one of the reasons stamina overperforms - which we seem to agree on. ZOS have finally, finally acknowledged that and given light armor dodge roll cost reduction, increased values on Well-Fitted and increased your default stam pool. Now you come up with this idea? It's a "no" from me. Please play the current meta for a while. Impregnable is quickly becoming the go to set. One of the upsides is that you can generously spec into Well-Fitted. This benefits light armor wearers as it does medium ones. If you're looking for parity, we're in a very reasonable place already.

dont get me wrong im just making a suggestion. the problem is the extra speed + dodgeroll stamblade has in advantage towards magblade as u know its way easier to cloak away if u do a few dodgerolls.

the medium armor stamina speed and mitigation combined with the ability to use cloak frequently is just screwed everyone is better of playing stamina nb at this point. cloak should pay of more when played by magicka user.

[snip] These days everyone is fast, be it from Swift, Wild Hunt, CP (out of combat) and so on. I play a magblade, by the way, basically a melee magblade.

The speed from medium, yeah, that doesn't actually exist. That's sprint speed. The speed from bow and from woodelf, that does exist alright. If you've played the kind of magblade that I play and then switch to stamblade, you notice a stark contrast: Magblade is fast in cloak, stamblade is slow. Stamblade is only fast outside of cloak, when sprinting or rolling. The difference is the +25% movement speed bonus from Concealed Weapon and the ability to sustain RAT.

So I'm basically disputing what you're saying. Stamblade does not have extra speed over magblade. It's just different. Furthermore, this patch, magblade also has quite good dodge roll sustain, especially if you build for it. Magblade is kind of clumsy to get going, because you need RAT instead of rolling on the bow bar for the Major Expedition. After that it covers far more ground in cloak than stamblade does as you keep stacking Concealed with RAT and you won't run out of magicka. You do need to stack a lot of speed to make this work, but I can probably evade a streaking sorc better on magblade than I can on stamblade, if I want to cloak away from them. Basically the combination of speed and some stamina sustain works on magblade as it does on stamblade.

[Edited to remove Baiting]

fred4

In case you're wondering what I would do to bring magblade up to stamblade's effectiveness, it would probably start with this:

Add Major Sorcery to Siphoning Attacks and give it a small burst heal, when it expires or is refreshed, that scales with magicka. This would be in addition to it's current functions. Basically this would turn it into a cross between Living Trellis and Rally and would get it up to par with the utility that Rally provides for stamblades. You'd have to be careful with how the heal scales, so as not to make the skill attractive to stamblades.

Noctus

fred4 wrote: »

Noctus wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

Noctus wrote: »

i would say give shadowy disguise some sort of stamina debuff so if stealth is used then rolldodges gonna be extremly costly for the next seconds. this will also hit magblades but since rolldodge isnt the main defense of a magblade it will work out.

I main a magblade and I really, really hope you're trolling. Having stamina sustain for roll dodging is one of the best and most fun ways to play magblade. For melee magblade it's mandatory, but I have found stam sustain a general problem on magicka classes and one of the reasons stamina overperforms - which we seem to agree on. ZOS have finally, finally acknowledged that and given light armor dodge roll cost reduction, increased values on Well-Fitted and increased your default stam pool. Now you come up with this idea? It's a "no" from me. Please play the current meta for a while. Impregnable is quickly becoming the go to set. One of the upsides is that you can generously spec into Well-Fitted. This benefits light armor wearers as it does medium ones. If you're looking for parity, we're in a very reasonable place already.

dont get me wrong im just making a suggestion. the problem is the extra speed + dodgeroll stamblade has in advantage towards magblade as u know its way easier to cloak away if u do a few dodgerolls.

the medium armor stamina speed and mitigation combined with the ability to use cloak frequently is just screwed everyone is better of playing stamina nb at this point. cloak should pay of more when played by magicka user.

The speed from medium, yeah, that doesn't actually exist. That's sprint speed.

it does matter sprintspeed is what i use to get away before i cloak again if cloak is broken. btw ur expecting everyone run magicka version of suprise attack when playing magblade. i also play magblade in melee range but im not using that skill and if i use it they are on different bars.

finehair

I get killed by night blades a lot, but they might be the only balanced class that doesn't need any nerfs or buffs at current state

soniku4ikblis

I cannot kill a good night blade.

Those battles eventually turn into a resource game and who gets in the lucky shot.

I can kill basic nb's all day long. They cannot kill me.

But a good NB is hard to kill. I hate it. But I respect it.

I'm a good Templar and its really hard to kill me lol.

mikey_reach

fred4 wrote: »

Noctus wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

Noctus wrote: »

i would say give shadowy disguise some sort of stamina debuff so if stealth is used then rolldodges gonna be extremly costly for the next seconds. this will also hit magblades but since rolldodge isnt the main defense of a magblade it will work out.

I main a magblade and I really, really hope you're trolling. Having stamina sustain for roll dodging is one of the best and most fun ways to play magblade. For melee magblade it's mandatory, but I have found stam sustain a general problem on magicka classes and one of the reasons stamina overperforms - which we seem to agree on. ZOS have finally, finally acknowledged that and given light armor dodge roll cost reduction, increased values on Well-Fitted and increased your default stam pool. Now you come up with this idea? It's a "no" from me. Please play the current meta for a while. Impregnable is quickly becoming the go to set. One of the upsides is that you can generously spec into Well-Fitted. This benefits light armor wearers as it does medium ones. If you're looking for parity, we're in a very reasonable place already.

dont get me wrong im just making a suggestion. the problem is the extra speed + dodgeroll stamblade has in advantage towards magblade as u know its way easier to cloak away if u do a few dodgerolls.

the medium armor stamina speed and mitigation combined with the ability to use cloak frequently is just screwed everyone is better of playing stamina nb at this point. cloak should pay of more when played by magicka user.

[snip] These days everyone is fast, be it from Swift, Wild Hunt, CP (out of combat) and so on. I play a magblade, by the way, basically a melee magblade.

The speed from medium, yeah, that doesn't actually exist. That's sprint speed. The speed from bow and from woodelf, that does exist alright. If you've played the kind of magblade that I play and then switch to stamblade, you notice a stark contrast: Magblade is fast in cloak, stamblade is slow. Stamblade is only fast outside of cloak, when sprinting or rolling. The difference is the +25% movement speed bonus from Concealed Weapon and the ability to sustain RAT.

So I'm basically disputing what you're saying. Stamblade does not have extra speed over magblade. It's just different. Furthermore, this patch, magblade also has quite good dodge roll sustain, especially if you build for it. Magblade is kind of clumsy to get going, because you need RAT instead of rolling on the bow bar for the Major Expedition. After that it covers far more ground in cloak than stamblade does as you keep stacking Concealed with RAT and you won't run out of magicka. You do need to stack a lot of speed to make this work, but I can probably evade a streaking sorc better on magblade than I can on stamblade, if I want to cloak away from them. Basically the combination of speed and some stamina sustain works on magblade as it does on stamblade.

Stamblade completely has extra speed over magblade, it has plenty of sprint speed which does matter and they get about 14% movement speed while cc immune in 7 medium. They have aways been more agile.

fred4

Noctus wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

Noctus wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

Noctus wrote: »

i would say give shadowy disguise some sort of stamina debuff so if stealth is used then rolldodges gonna be extremly costly for the next seconds. this will also hit magblades but since rolldodge isnt the main defense of a magblade it will work out.

I main a magblade and I really, really hope you're trolling. Having stamina sustain for roll dodging is one of the best and most fun ways to play magblade. For melee magblade it's mandatory, but I have found stam sustain a general problem on magicka classes and one of the reasons stamina overperforms - which we seem to agree on. ZOS have finally, finally acknowledged that and given light armor dodge roll cost reduction, increased values on Well-Fitted and increased your default stam pool. Now you come up with this idea? It's a "no" from me. Please play the current meta for a while. Impregnable is quickly becoming the go to set. One of the upsides is that you can generously spec into Well-Fitted. This benefits light armor wearers as it does medium ones. If you're looking for parity, we're in a very reasonable place already.

dont get me wrong im just making a suggestion. the problem is the extra speed + dodgeroll stamblade has in advantage towards magblade as u know its way easier to cloak away if u do a few dodgerolls.

the medium armor stamina speed and mitigation combined with the ability to use cloak frequently is just screwed everyone is better of playing stamina nb at this point. cloak should pay of more when played by magicka user.

The speed from medium, yeah, that doesn't actually exist. That's sprint speed.

it does matter sprintspeed is what i use to get away before i cloak again if cloak is broken. btw ur expecting everyone run magicka version of suprise attack when playing magblade. i also play magblade in melee range but im not using that skill and if i use it they are on different bars.

Not everyone, but probably when you're not using Shadow Image. And, yeah, I agree. Having to have Concealed on the same bar as Shadowy Disguise to avail of the speed is a real problem that has hampered my builds for years. It's another one of those things that I'd change, if I had an idea of how magblades could retain the speed without also giving it to stamblades.

fred4

mikey_reach wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

Noctus wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

Noctus wrote: »

i would say give shadowy disguise some sort of stamina debuff so if stealth is used then rolldodges gonna be extremly costly for the next seconds. this will also hit magblades but since rolldodge isnt the main defense of a magblade it will work out.

I main a magblade and I really, really hope you're trolling. Having stamina sustain for roll dodging is one of the best and most fun ways to play magblade. For melee magblade it's mandatory, but I have found stam sustain a general problem on magicka classes and one of the reasons stamina overperforms - which we seem to agree on. ZOS have finally, finally acknowledged that and given light armor dodge roll cost reduction, increased values on Well-Fitted and increased your default stam pool. Now you come up with this idea? It's a "no" from me. Please play the current meta for a while. Impregnable is quickly becoming the go to set. One of the upsides is that you can generously spec into Well-Fitted. This benefits light armor wearers as it does medium ones. If you're looking for parity, we're in a very reasonable place already.

dont get me wrong im just making a suggestion. the problem is the extra speed + dodgeroll stamblade has in advantage towards magblade as u know its way easier to cloak away if u do a few dodgerolls.

the medium armor stamina speed and mitigation combined with the ability to use cloak frequently is just screwed everyone is better of playing stamina nb at this point. cloak should pay of more when played by magicka user.

Are we living in the same game? Am I that much of a unicorn? These days everyone is fast, be it from Swift, Wild Hunt, CP (out of combat) and so on. I play a magblade, by the way, basically a melee magblade.

The speed from medium, yeah, that doesn't actually exist. That's sprint speed. The speed from bow and from woodelf, that does exist alright. If you've played the kind of magblade that I play and then switch to stamblade, you notice a stark contrast: Magblade is fast in cloak, stamblade is slow. Stamblade is only fast outside of cloak, when sprinting or rolling. The difference is the +25% movement speed bonus from Concealed Weapon and the ability to sustain RAT.

So I'm basically disputing what you're saying. Stamblade does not have extra speed over magblade. It's just different. Furthermore, this patch, magblade also has quite good dodge roll sustain, especially if you build for it. Magblade is kind of clumsy to get going, because you need RAT instead of rolling on the bow bar for the Major Expedition. After that it covers far more ground in cloak than stamblade does as you keep stacking Concealed with RAT and you won't run out of magicka. You do need to stack a lot of speed to make this work, but I can probably evade a streaking sorc better on magblade than I can on stamblade, if I want to cloak away from them. Basically the combination of speed and some stamina sustain works on magblade as it does on stamblade.

Stamblade completely has extra speed over magblade, it has plenty of sprint speed which does matter and they get about 14% movement speed while cc immune in 7 medium. They have aways been more agile.

I agree that sprint speed matters some, but I had to keep reminding myself in the past that it had been only sprint speed, so that's where that unfortunate / provocative phrasing came from. The new movement speed while CC immune is actually something I overlooked. Thanks.

relentless_turnip

Stamblades are very strong this patch, but they don't need adjusting. There is so many ways to counter cloak.

ZOS_ConnorG

Greetings all,

After review we have had to edit or remove several posts for rule violations, mostly Baiting. Ensure when engaging in a discussion that you keep said discussion civil, constructive, and within the rules. If you see a post that is baiting in nature do not engage it with further hostility and instead report it for the moderators to review.

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Pauls

Nerf warden maybe

techyeshic

Must be bait to just say I find it funny that people complain about cloak being OP, and others say it's not effective enough. Lord forbid you find irony in wild extremes, or recognize it's a tool in a collective kit that's use in combination makes or breaks it. Having an even opinion just calls for trolling I suppose

Goregrinder

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Stamblades are very strong this patch, but they don't need adjusting. There is so many ways to counter cloak.

Inner Light, Expert Hunter, detect pots etc are available for all classes and specs to slot if they choose to run a counter to stealth and cloak. NB's can put a mark on another NB and see them in cloak. There are a few sets that also have aways to counter cloak I believe as well.

Noctus

Goregrinder wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Stamblades are very strong this patch, but they don't need adjusting. There is so many ways to counter cloak.

Inner Light, Expert Hunter, detect pots etc are available for all classes and specs to slot if they choose to run a counter to stealth and cloak. NB's can put a mark on another NB and see them in cloak. There are a few sets that also have aways to counter cloak I believe as well.

yes the mark was my favorite skill back in the day where it would work for like 20 secs. however my true problem is not NB its staminaNB and its advantage towards magickaNB thats all there is to it.

Noctus

techyeshic wrote: »

Must be bait to just say I find it funny that people complain about cloak being OP, and others say it's not effective enough. Lord forbid you find irony in wild extremes, or recognize it's a tool in a collective kit that's use in combination makes or breaks it. Having an even opinion just calls for trolling I suppose

its not cloak beeing OP its stamblade taking advantage of a magicka skill which is the main mitigation tool of magblade and pretty much replaces dodgerolls for them. that said stamblade through the extra speed and everything enjoy a very easy time by having the ability to cloak beeing as strong as on a magblade.

its like if u would give stamsorc the ability to shield for as much as a magsorc with 40 k magicka and 30 k hp.

Noctus

techyeshic wrote: »

Must be bait to just say I find it funny that people complain about cloak being OP, and others say it's not effective enough. Lord forbid you find irony in wild extremes, or recognize it's a tool in a collective kit that's use in combination makes or breaks it. Having an even opinion just calls for trolling I suppose

i never said cloak is OP i just said that it shouldnt be as strong on a stamblade as it is on a magblade since stamblades have several advantages especially if u give them the ability to cloak on top of it some of the advantages has been talked about.

Juhasow

It was always an issue with the cloak on stamblade that It's both OP and trash ability based on the fight type.