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If you could remake the Three Banners War...

Crazyprophet
Crazyprophet
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Just a fun speculative topic here! ESO's been alternatively praised and despised for how it chose to allocate the membership of alliances in the Three Banners War. Some factions like the Aldmeri Dominion was very much what we expected, whereas other alliances were at best baffling - trying to wrap one's head around the Orcs joining the Covenant or the Argonians buddying up with the Dark Elves was a bit more of a stretch for a lot of people.

With that in mind: imagine that YOU were asked to write the Three Banners War. For consistency, let's say that there still have to be three alliances. Would you change the racial membership? The theme/focus of the faction? The internal structure? How would you remake or rebuild a faction to make more sense or to be more fulfilling as a part of the Elder Scrolls lore?
  • Vevvev
    Vevvev
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    Make it far more apparent that Skyrim is divided, some Argonians are fine living peacefully in the marsh, and that not all the Dunmer houses joined the Pact. Someone not paying attention might be led to believe that all Nords, all Dunmer, and all Argonians joined it and that they're all unified. They are not.

    As for the Covenant after the events of Orsinium the Orcs officially leave the Covenant. This isn't made very apparent but King Bazrag doesn't hold his people to the Covenant because that was a deal between Kurog and Emric, but if his people want to still fight he won't order them to stop. So as you can guess a lot of the Orsimer's support was withdrawn but not all of it as some are still loyal to the Covenant.
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  • Araneae6537
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    I feel that the Aldmeri Dominion makes the most sense and the Ebonheart Pact the least. I really cannot see Dunmer and Nords getting along, much less being allies, and I would not expect most Argonians to ally with the Dunmer. So I would swap the alliances of the Nords and Orsimer and have the Imperials join the Ebonheart pact. I could see the Argonians being part of the Aldmeri Dominion, but maybe that wouldn’t make sense for reasons I’m not aware of and also would be uneven. Maybe if they’re more divided and tribal it would make sense for the Argonians to have been the default pick-your-alliance race rather than the Imperials?
    Edited by Araneae6537 on March 18, 2021 5:43PM
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  • Crazyprophet
    Crazyprophet
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    Vevvev wrote: »
    As for the Covenant after the events of Orsinium the Orcs officially leave the Covenant. This isn't made very apparent but King Bazrag doesn't hold his people to the Covenant because that was a deal between Kurog and Emric, but if his people want to still fight he won't order them to stop. So as you can guess a lot of the Orsimer's support was withdrawn but not all of it as some are still loyal to the Covenant.

    It's been a hot minute since I've played Orsinium but I'm fairly sure he says he's going to renegotiate the deal, not cancel it.
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  • ealdwin
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    Vevvev wrote: »
    As for the Covenant after the events of Orsinium the Orcs officially leave the Covenant. This isn't made very apparent but King Bazrag doesn't hold his people to the Covenant because that was a deal between Kurog and Emric, but if his people want to still fight he won't order them to stop. So as you can guess a lot of the Orsimer's support was withdrawn but not all of it as some are still loyal to the Covenant.

    It's been a hot minute since I've played Orsinium but I'm fairly sure he says he's going to renegotiate the deal, not cancel it.

    Are you happy with the rebuilt Orsinium?
    "Happy? What an odd question. To tell you the truth, I never thought I'd live to see the city rise again. But I've been wrong before. You're a good example of that.
    If you're asking if I'm proud of what Kurog created, then yes, I guess I am."
    Are you worried that without a king the city might make a tempting target?
    "The thought has crossed my mind. At least under Kurog, as part of the Daggerfall Covenant, we were considered strong. We had allies. That's something I need to think about. I used to dismiss Kurog and his deals with our enemies. Now I'm not so sure."
    Are you thinking of withdrawing from the alliance?
    "Emeric's agreement was with Kurog, not the clan chiefs. We need to discuss our options and make a decision, hopefully before the next siege camp sets up outside our walls."
    ...
    What's next for you and Orsinium?
    "I need to continue to meet with the clan chiefs and reach out to other influential Orcs in the city. We have a government to forge and alliances to foster.
    There's a lot of work, but I think I finally understand what Kurog was trying to do."


    From: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Chief_Bazrag#The_Funeral

    It's kind of uncertain what the state of Orcish membership in the Daggerfall Covenant is post-Orsinium DLC. Bazrag makes it clear that the agreement that got them into the alliance was between High King Emeric and Kurog, and not between HK Emeric and himself. So, if the Orcs are to remain in the Covenant and keep any sort of claim to North-East High Rock, that's up to the agreement that Kurog and the chiefs come up with. It could very well be that the Orcs as a whole are either in the alliance or out of the alliance. Or, perhaps membership varies from group to group. It would appear the Orcs occupying the Island of Betony at this time had to form a separate agreement than the Kurog lead Orsinium agreement, so individual tribes making their own decisions isn't out of the question.

    In short, there's not really a clear answer, but it does sound like Bazrag is at least open to renegotiation.
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  • Danikat
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    I've thought about this before, but I can't come up with any neat 3-way split which makes sense to me.

    I agree that the Pact makes the least sense, but I also don't think it makes sense for the khajiit to be in the Dominion. I know they were forced into it after being weakened by the Knahaten Flu, but even with that excuse it seems like a poor choice and unlikely to last. I doubt ZOS would have taken that approach if they weren't determined to have an event split of races and provinces between the 3 alliances.

    I think I'd shift the alliances round a bit - I could see the breton potentially allying with the altmer on the basis of trade and breton nobles claiming elven blood as justification for their rank (even after driving out the ayleids) and I think the bretons could persuade the redguards to still join the alliance.

    I could imagine the khajiit and argonians allying with each other out of necessity and not so much shared history or culture but similar experiences in how other races treated them and would be likely to treat them again if they got control of all of Tamriel.

    Along similar lines I could see the orcs and nords joining together to present a show of strength and a coordinated defence. I don't think they have much in common but they've been relatively peaceful neighbours (all the orcs conflicts seem to be with the bretons and redguard). The Imperials might join them as well, since they have a lot of shared history with the nords.

    That leaves the bosmer and the dunmer, neither of which seem likely to join an alliance willingly. Maybe the bosmer would join with the altmer, bretons and redguard for similar reasons to joining the Dominion, or maybe they'd join the khajiit and argonians on the basis that it gives them some allies but I imagine that 'alliance' being the most independently minded and the one most likely to let everyone continue doing their own thing.

    The only race I could see the dunmer forming an allegiance with that wasn't under duress (like when Morrowind was brought under Imperial rule in the 3rd era) is the altmer, and of course that doesn't fit in this case because they're on opposite sides of the continent.
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  • ealdwin
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    Danikat wrote: »
    I've thought about this before, but I can't come up with any neat 3-way split which makes sense to me.

    Yeah, there's a few too many races out there that would rather be left to their own devices to come up with neat 3-way splits.

    The Aldmeri Dominion primarily has the Bosmer and the Khajiit in it in because they are a part of the 3rd Aldmeri Dominion in TES V: Skyrim. It's not that there's absolutely no logic behind them joining with the Altmer, it's just that they don't have many reasons for doing so aside from "maybe there should be an Elven led empire?". But they aren't exactly isolationist races either. Both the Bosmer and the Khajiit have their own reasons that would lead them to be part of larger cross-province political entities, such as the Empire. The Wood-Elves rely on trade for access to materials they are not allowed to harvest within the borders of Valenwood due to the Green Pact. And Khajiiti culture seems to rely very heavily on caravans to sell wares to other provinces as well as bring wares back to sell in their own province. If anything, the confusing part of the Aldmeri Dominion is how the Altmer joined up with others, since they seem to generally have no problems keeping to their island. (Though perhaps this explains the isolationist views of the Second Aldmeri Dominion).

    The Ebonheart Pact makes absolutely no sense, beyond a very temporary military alliance between a few groups of the respective member races that was formed in the face of an Akaviri invasion. The Argonians and Dunmer are usually very isolationist in manner. The Argonians more-so due to their connection to the Hist and preferring their homeland to the other provinces. The Dunmer in a more xenophobic manner that leads them to believe that any outside influences are inherently detrimental to their society as a whole. (With the exception of House Hlaalu). And then you have the history of the Dunmer enslaving Argonians, and the stability of that part of the alliance really gets called into question.

    And that's not factoring in that the part of Skyrim that is part of the Pact are the Old Holds (The Pale, Winterhold, Eastmarch, The Rift), the part thats more traditional and tends to be more anti-mer and isolated than the newer Holds. The alliance of those holds with the Dunmer and the Argonians is confusing, to say the least. Historically speaking, it would make more sense for the Nords to be allied with the Imperials or Bretons, who they have had in general, more positive political interactions with. But that's not counting the shifting borders of the past, and what will cause in the future the War of the Bend'r-mahk where Skyrim lays claim to the Breton city of Jehanna and the Redguard city of Elinhir. But then again, an alliance of Bretons and Nords does oppose the armies of Cuhlecain under Hjaalti Early-Beard, so... Skyrim's a bit of a coin flip on where it would be alliance wise.

    The Daggerfall Covenenat makes a bit more sense than the others, largely due to the fact that the usual disagreements are more geo-politcal in nature. Conflicts in the Illiac Bay usually arise due to disputed claims or attempts to expand borders of control over an area. The first sacking of Orsinium, for example, was the result of an attempt by the Orcs to lay claim to the cities of Wayrest and Evermore. (Naturally, Wayrest and Evermore didn't agree, and having enough of Orcish raids decided to do something about it). Even High Rock as a province is usually beset with disagreements between the individual kingdoms. So, it makes sense that the alliance is pretty much held together through Emeric's skills as a leader and negotiator, as that would be required to get past those geopolitical disagreements and organize together. And the Bretons have the advantage of being perhaps the least isolationist of the races, with the Imperials being either ahead of them or just behind. And speaking of the Imperials, they usually get along fairly well with the Orcs due to less geo-political disputes and the orcs providing good support to the legion. The Redguards also make some sense, considering the alliance is about treaties that resolve some of the disputes as well as encouraging trade, something the Illiac Bay as a region is fairly big on.

    So, I think ZOS did the best they could trying to keep the provinces that were allied close together. But, realistically speaking for Tamriel, the most possible alliance would be one built between High Rock, Western Skyrim, the Forebear cities of Hammerfell, the Colovian Estates, and some of the Orcish tribes built on trying to reestablish a stable Empire after the wake of the Planemeld. Summerset, Morrowind, and Black Marsh would peace off to do their own things, not wanting to be part of any new empire. The Nibenese Estates, Crown Cities, Valenwood, and Elsweyr wouldn't join at first, but would be open to joining or at least remaining in close contact and trade with said alliance.
    Edited by ealdwin on March 18, 2021 8:33PM
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  • RedMuse
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    If I could remake it? I either wouldn't have it in the game because it's pointless, or I would have made it the main thing throughout the game which includes subsequent DLCs. As it stands it is worse than pointless, it's utterly forgotten.
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  • ealdwin
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    Personally, I would have set it up as a conflict between different 3 factions from the outer edges of Cyrodiill, with each faction claiming to be the true heirs to the Empire. The individual zones would have largely ignored the conflict in Cyrodiil, and focused more on the provinces themselves, highlighting the turbulent time period this is. Where no province can focus entirely on unity because every one has their own problems, and the heart of the Empire is currently being fought over by various factions.

    Speaking of those factions, here would be my proposed ones using the current map of Cyrodiil:

    Chorrol & Bruma (Colovia?) | Bravil & Vlastarus (Nibenay?) | Cheydinhal & Cropsford (???)
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  • LostHorizon1933
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    I really cannot see Dunmer and Nords getting along, much less being allies, and I would not expect most Argonians to ally with the Dunmer.

    "HEY!!! You all HATE each other, REMEMBER?!?" -- Sheogorath
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  • Phanex
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    I wouldn't have the alliances based on who is closets to me ( I get why they did it that way).

    Plus, for more PVP action, I'd give each alliance a zone (with 1-3 mini zones inside of it) they have to protect from other players that resets weekly or monthly.

    So, if the covenant manages to over take mini zone 1 then can progress to mini zone 2. The defenders can do multiple things to help out, like donating supplies, armor, materials, gold, etc. so the NPCs defending these zones will be that much stronger to defend the areas.

    Once an alliance manages to win the entire zone, the losing alliance will get a small debuff or something as a result and the winning alliance gets the resources of that zone donated to their alliance zones or something.

    Just, something I think would make it interesting.
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  • EmperorRemanIV
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    For lore purposes, I would make: Daggerfall Covenant made of Bretons, Redguards and Nords; Another alliance made of Argonians, Khajits and Bosmer; Aldmeri Dominion made of Altmer and Maormer. Yes, I would like to see Maormer with more involvement in Tamriel Lore. I wouldn't mix argonians and dunmer because of their slavery issues. And orcs seems like they deal better with their own kind than with others.
    Edited by EmperorRemanIV on March 20, 2021 7:32PM
    His Imperial Majesty, Reman IV, Emperor of Cyrodiil, Sunspire Saint, Guardian of the Reach, Elsweyr and Galen, Shield of the North, Ophidian Overlord of Craglorn, Defender of Rockgrove, Count of Cyrodiil, Baron/Thane of Solitude, Falkreath and Morthal, Lord of the Daggerfall Covenant, Knight of the Silver Rose, Knight of the Silver Dawn, Knight-Errant of High Isle and Chevalier of Moongrave Fane.

    Monarch of the trading guild Second Empire of Cyrodiil
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  • Ratzkifal
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    I don't mind the Daggerfall Covenant and Dominion all that much. Those alliances may be fragile but as long as the other alliances exist, none of them will see a reason to drop out of their alliance because they dislike the alternatives more.
    The Pact is the only faction I would make major changes to, but I would expand and highlight the different philosophies of the alliances and give them some sense of unity in shared values.

    The way I see it the Pact stands for Independence. Neither the Nords or Dunmer want to be ruled by some other power, especially if that other power could be an enemy of theirs, so they want to restructure Cyrodiil to be a weakened puppet-state serving as a buffer against the other Alliances.

    The Covenant is all about Opportunity (and Profit). With the Empire gone, they can be "the next Empire". Emeric might even have some legitimacy to his claim to the Ruby Throne. The Breton and Imperial nobles aren't all too different, so perhaps there is some document saying that he is somewhere on the list to inherit it, especially if all the Imperials ahead of him are now working for Molag Bal. If they are the ones to restore the Empire then they will benefit the most afterwards. If another alliance wins, then they might get the short end of the stick and lose all the influence and political power they once had. Redguard pirates become privateers and get to plunder Altmeri ships while King Faraha'jad is happy to have powerful political allies and starts playing the game of politics like a Breton. The Orcs are just kind of happy to belong somewhere now.

    The Dominion wants Stability. They see the war as a means to an end. The hatred bred from the use of the Numidium and Talos' apotheosis hasn't twisted the Altmer mindset yet, so they are perfectly content for now with letting the humans continue to live. They simply do this because they are so compassionate, even if the others can't appreciate it. An Altmer on the throne would bring stability and prosperity to all and live long enough to maintain it too. They are just so kind. The Bosmer kind of got dragged into this because the nobles of Valenwood owe the Dominion loyalty due to them helping consolidate their power. The reason the Khajiit stay after the Altmer helped them with the Knahaten Flu is that they do not want the Dunmer to win the war in fear of their slavers becoming more bold if they do, as House Dres is looking to replace the Argonian slaves they've lost with Khajiit, so they stay with their allies in the Dominion even after they have rebuilt.

    Now as for the Pact, the story of how it formed is okay with me for the most part. The part that annoys me is how the Argonians had no motivation to help out their slavers but did so anyway, by taking an army through Deshaan completely unnoticed even though that's where Mournhold is, the capital of the Dunmer! So what I would change is that Keshu's raids on Morrowind ultimately resulted in failure and the enslavement of her and her Black Fin Legion. So her enslaved army is already scattered across Stonefalls by the time of the Akaviri invasion. Fort Virak got obliterated by Akaviri magic, which they weren't prepared for as it originally served to defend Morrowind from the Nords, so the Dunmer were caught completely off-guard. The Dres landowners in Stonefalls were scared to lose their harvest, their belongings and their lands to the Akaviri attack because they were so ill-prepared after Fort Virak fell so quickly.
    So Keshu stepped forth and offered that they would fight for the Dunmer if House Dres set all Argonians free in return, knowing that the Argonians had everything to gain and nothing to lose, as it made little difference to them if they were killed by Dunmer slavers or Akaviri invaders should their masters refuse the deal. Begrudgingly the Dres accepted. From there everything else stays more or less the same again. House Dres could not go back on their word once Keshu and Jorunn ran into each other during the battle, as they couldn't risk making enemies of them in that situation. Jorunn, Keshu and Almalexia then form the Ebonheart Pact because they do not wish to be pushed around by the other nations of Tamriel and see the possibility of that looming on the horizon.
    That way they don't just all start being best of friends and tensions are still there, but they do see how this alliance is mutually beneficial to maintaining their independence and freedom. It is also less out of character for Indoril and Dres that way. The other time in the lore where slavery was banned, a lot of important Indoril figures committed suicide in protest, leaving more progressive Indoril behind and House Dres losing support as a result. This should have happened in ESO too if it isn't being made a necessity in the eyes of the slavers themselves. The battle with the Akaviri happened in Dres and Indoril lands, so my suggestion makes a lot more sense I feel.
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
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  • kaisernick
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    I have said it before and i will say it again the pact MAKES SENSE its how they form i have problem with...
    . I really cannot see Dunmer and Nords getting along, much less being allies, and I would not expect most Argonians to ally with the Dunmer.
    The Nords and dunmer allying actually improves the lore espically future lore before now most have had the dunmer and Nords being frosty at best, yet during the darkest time for the dunmer in the 4 era the Nords allow them in their lands give them a island and allow them to build a statue to Azura.
    Now why would they do such a thing if they had been at odds constantly through the ages, kindness sure but the fact that now they were once allies makes the reasoning all the more solid and yes things are not great for them by the time of Skyrim but it still improves the lore imo over such.

    As for the Argonians they practally worship the hist as gods, if the hist tell them to do something most will likly never question it so if the hist give the Argonians a vision to join the dunmer in a alliance they will do and the planemeld and three banners war can and would effect the hist.

    Now my problem and what i would change is the invasion, its badly written and feels very much a carbon copy of how the Dc form, instead i would have it that the pact is the last to form and it forms out of necessaty, the planemeld is a problem and now two major armies are fighting for control of the center of tameriel, if either of them win the pact forces are now surrounded by a single unitd enemy.
    So th skald king realising this makes petitions to the dunemr and the houses agree that such a threat is real (not all do ofc the Telvanni for example dont agree) but they are open to it, however when vivec and almelexia both agree such a alliance is warrented there approval cements such.
    the hist seeing the strife in tamriel as being a danger to them give the argonians a vision that joining this alliance is vital for their survival so a group head into skyrim and request to join, some dunmer object but the skald king manages to convince them of their necessity, his cool head and diplomacy is vital and he is chosen to lead this new pact.

    Thsi would then lead to content showing that the pact is new and easily fragile, however in game events like the Dc invasion on stonefalls and the dominion attack on argonin lands cements their need to stay together and fight as one.
    Edited by kaisernick on March 22, 2021 12:04PM
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  • MaisonNaevius
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    ealdwin wrote: »
    Personally, I would have set it up as a conflict between different 3 factions from the outer edges of Cyrodiill, with each faction claiming to be the true heirs to the Empire. The individual zones would have largely ignored the conflict in Cyrodiil, and focused more on the provinces themselves, highlighting the turbulent time period this is. Where no province can focus entirely on unity because every one has their own problems, and the heart of the Empire is currently being fought over by various factions.

    Speaking of those factions, here would be my proposed ones using the current map of Cyrodiil:

    Chorrol & Bruma (Colovia?) | Bravil & Vlastarus (Nibenay?) | Cheydinhal & Cropsford (???)

    First we need to know the real context of the Empire. We have good feedback from Abnur Tharn but the information remains insufficient.

    Le Nibenay is only interested in recovering pieces of land for personal use. While Colovia will seek to correct the nonsense of the Nibenese by uniting Cyrodiil then the provinces by force.

    As for the distribution of cities, it is unbalanced.
    Chorrol and Vlastarus belong to Colovia.
    I do not know what is the point of view of ESO for Bruma but TES IV said he is Nibenese.. Which surprises me for a city with Nordic origins like Falkreath.
    The others belong to Nibenay.
    > Wiki spécialisé sur Cyrodiil / en cour de rédaction <
    https://tescyrodiipedia.blogspot.com/

    - Naevius-
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  • Anumaril
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    Some people say that alliances like the Ebonheart Pact would simply be impossible. While to a certain extent this is true, the game needed factions, so one way or another it had to be done. For that reason I don't criticise the faction itself so much as how they handled it in the lore.

    It would have been much more believable if they highlighted how the three races were DESPERATE following the Akaviri Invasion, how close they came to ruin before tentatively uniting to throw back the Eastern invaders. We get some of this in current lore, but it is not nearly as clear as it should be. They did not feel nearly as desperate as they should have been to warrant that kind of alliance, temporary as it may have been.

    Furthermore, there should have been some sort of special circumstance given to why the pact continued to exist after the Akaviri were defeated. Under normal circumstances an alliance as unstable as that would have collapsed immediately, but it didn't. This could easily have been framed as them needing to keep it alive long enough to make sure that neither of the other two alliances conquered the continent. That is, neither of the three Pact races trust each other to rule, so they're not fighting to conquer, they're fighting to stop the OTHERS from conquering.

    Additionally I think it would have been valuable to highlight just how unstable the alliance is—how much they dislike each other and want to be rid of each other as soon as the war is done. In-game we have a lot of "love will prevail", "we grow to like each other", etc. That just doesn't make sense to me. The races don't like each other, and that's OKAY! Let them not like each other, and explore that relationship through the quests. There's no need to pass moral judgement by forcing them to like each other and get along.

    So in conclusion, to fix the Ebonheart pact I would have: (1) make their union one of desperation, even more so than it is in current lore, (2) make it so that the reason its still here is NOT to place Jorunn on the Ruby Throne, but only to stop the other factions from conquering the continent, (3) make the alliance unstable, as neither of the three races like or trust each other, and (4) make it OKAY that they don't like each other, as they have ample and justifiable reasons not to—I wouldn't artificially push them together towards comradery and common respect just because it's "cool to see" and "warms the heart".
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  • tsaescishoeshiner
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    I hope a rewrite would feature Orcish land more prominently. The basegame DC zones barely mention orc politics or culture, and none would take place in Orc zones if it weren't for Betnikh (which was a good idea for some Orcish inclusion).

    It would also be more interesting to have vying claimants to the throne—Ayrenn, Emeric, and Jorunn are just leaders of powerful alliances. But if the alliances were based around each one supporting a different (mostly Imperial) potentially-legitimate claimant to the throne, this would involve more Imperial politics, and add reason for the urgency and legitimacy of the alliances. Like, it might not a lot of make sense why two groups would ally on their own, but it would make more sense why a third party would want them to ally for everyone's benefit.

    Example:
    A Tsaesci/Akaviri-heritage claimant, like the Imperials we see in Hakoshae.
    A claimant entangled in Varen's family tree—could even be an Orcish heir.
    And a Reach claimant—the Longhouse Emperors are well within memory.

    While there's no Dragonborn emperor in 2E582, there are plenty of descendants of recent rulers of Cyrodiil.

    The alliances could still have political leaders, and leaders of racial factions. I just think this would add intrigue and serve as a tool to explain a lot, but it could make things too complicated.
    PC-NA
    in-game: @tsaescishoeshiner
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  • kaisernick
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    I hope a rewrite would feature Orcish land more prominently. The basegame DC zones barely mention orc politics or culture, and none would take place in Orc zones if it weren't for Betnikh (which was a good idea for some Orcish inclusion).

    It would also be more interesting to have vying claimants to the throne—Ayrenn, Emeric, and Jorunn are just leaders of powerful alliances. But if the alliances were based around each one supporting a different (mostly Imperial) potentially-legitimate claimant to the throne, this would involve more Imperial politics, and add reason for the urgency and legitimacy of the alliances. Like, it might not a lot of make sense why two groups would ally on their own, but it would make more sense why a third party would want them to ally for everyone's benefit.

    Example:
    A Tsaesci/Akaviri-heritage claimant, like the Imperials we see in Hakoshae.
    A claimant entangled in Varen's family tree—could even be an Orcish heir.
    And a Reach claimant—the Longhouse Emperors are well within memory.

    While there's no Dragonborn emperor in 2E582, there are plenty of descendants of recent rulers of Cyrodiil.

    The alliances could still have political leaders, and leaders of racial factions. I just think this would add intrigue and serve as a tool to explain a lot, but it could make things too complicated.

    while i agree that would be intresting i can imagine they decided against it because not only can players be emperor for a short time but it would make the Ad's claim that elves should rule less meaningful.
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  • Cirantille
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    * I would put mer and betmer (beast-mer) into Aldmeri Dominion. Altmer, Dunmer, Bosmer, Khajiit, Argonian, Orsimer

    * And human races to Daggerfall Covenant. Redguard, Nord, Imperial, Breton

    * And for Ebonheart Pact: I can not see Argonians fancying their slave owners

    Dunmer worshipping mainly daedra or living gods...

    Nords not being very open to magic and daedric stuff and fighting side by side with Daedra worshipping magical elves

    Also how does Dunmer being so proud, advanced in magic and faring well accepts a Nord as their king

    How does it all even fit... considering all these always felt inconsistent to me

    But I can see why they put them together to make 3 corners to Cyrodiil.

    A few points might change:

    -Argonians and Orsimer could be independent, this would also give both alliances equal number of races, would be fair.

    -Imperials could be independent with their own alliance since is their homeland but I can also see them perfectly fitting to DC because DC wants to restore the human empire once again

    -Some Bretons could be AD due to their ancestry/family ties

    -There could be an independent Alliance living in Cyrodiil and defending it (this would solve corner problem too)

    -There would be surely conflict between Dunmer and other Mers because their choice of worshipped gods but hey at least they call each other cousins, so if they came to agreement with Nords, they could definitely ally with other mers
    Edited by Cirantille on April 7, 2021 2:00PM
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  • Folkb
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    I would get rid of it honestly. I feel it constrains the story more than it helps.

    But then cyrodiil would have to be revamped into something else.
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  • HappyTheCamper
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    I don’t mind it. If the US and UK could ally with the USSR during WWII then anything is possible.

    The terms of the Covenant make sense, and the Orsinium DLC helps highlight the strife with the Orcs. The Ebonheart Pact is all about three nations wanting to work with each other only to get independence for themselves. Plus Telvanni and most Dres didn’t agree with it so that helps it make more sense.
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  • ArchMikem
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    Aldmeri Dominion:

    An Altmer Hegemony with Alinor being the Capital City. The Bosmer are too independent and looked down upon to be welcomed as equal Allies so they'd be forced into the fold as a Vassal state. Elsweyr would NOT be in the Dominion, as they in this point in time are a more or less independent state known as the Elsweyr Confederacy, however previously held fealty to the Empire as a member Province. That said I would have preferred Elsweyr remain a part of the Empire, leaving the Dominion controlling only the Summerset Isles and the Valenwood. Because of this, the Dominion wouldn't have even made much progress into Cyrodiil as most of the fighting would be along the Valenwood/Elsweyr border.

    Daggerfall Covenant:

    There's centuries upon centuries of the Bretons and Redguard "joining forces" in order to subjugate or put down the threat Orsinium projects, so an alliance between High Rock and Hammerfell is believable. Obviously then, having Orsinium ALSO a part of that alliance is a pretty good joke, considering their would be allies have tried multiple times to utterly destroy their civilization. The Covenant would remain as it is, minus Wrothgar as it would be neutral and or at war with the Covenant.

    Ebonheart Pact:

    The Nords are distrusting of most outsiders, ESPECIALLY Mer. They'd have an easier time accepting the Argonians as they are capable warriors and they even share a common disdain for the Elven peoples. I can see Skyrim and Black Marsh coming together, but with their lands being divided by Morrowind geographically an official Alliance is pretty much out of the question, unless the two of them signed the Pact to bilaterally invade Morrowind to remove the Dunmer and their Tribunal out of the picture, with Skyrim gaining territory from Morrowind in exchange for guaranteeing the end of the Slave Trade. Other than that however the Pact is the shakiest idea of the three and would most likely just never exist.
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  • guarstompemoji
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    That the EP makes no sense, I can get that. I find it heroically inspiring, though: the argonians allied because the Hist said to--and by allying, they themselves were able to force an end to the slavery of their people...they did this, and not some third-party force.

    Ofc, when they got up and left after a while, the Dunmer went right back to old habits--but for a while, it was a cause worth fighting for. It's the sort of "get up and take a stance" that's eye-catching in a heroic tale, though the Pact itself is ... well, it was never going to last. The Dunmer don't seem to respect anyone else, which to be fair to them, seems to be a general elven trait with perhaps all but the wood elves.

    The Dominion...oh goodness. The writer in me just flails at this alliance. The khajiit come across has having little motivation other than being victims. They were forced into their situation, to ally with the high elves who would eventually like to see and end to all mortality. They have no fault and are set up for a player's sympathy, which bothers me. In fiction, we see this all the time--a hero to whom bad things happen, but it is never their fault.

    Where is the fun in that?

    There's a wince-worthy quest where the player is taken slowly through Rimmen, to point out how much the khajiit are victims and are suffering. This is despite that they're some of the strongest mages, thieves, swordsfolk, martial artists, fine artists, and so on in the game. They have the power to influence heavenly bodies; there is very little they are not capable of. They are a race capable of everything, and yet...

    Characters need flaws, and the khajiit don't seem to have them other than being unfairly mistrusted.

    The queen of the Dominion--I wish she was a little less taking a stand against everything her people stand for, in order to make her appealing. She needed to be inspiring as a leader, just. ...

    I suppose the way she was constructed made it a little too obvious? She has some wonderful storylines, but as a character, these traits stand out and risk defining her, instead of her standing on her own.

    I suppose if I had a wish, it would be: to bring back some of the older concept lore for the high elves. Have their leadership represent more of their culture instead of being inspiring because she stands against it. ...then from there, give the khajiit ...some flaws, both as a race, and as for their reasons for joining their alliance.
    Edited by guarstompemoji on May 29, 2021 7:51AM
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  • ealdwin
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    ArchMikem wrote: »
    Obviously then, having Orsinium ALSO a part of that alliance is a pretty good joke, considering their would be allies have tried multiple times to utterly destroy their civilization.

    In fairness to the Bretons and Redguards, they're goals in sacking Orsinium have never been about ending Orcish civilization, but rather dealing with a hostile political entity threatening violence upon their neighbors unless those neighbors subject themselves to said entities rule.

    Notably, Orsinium once tried to assert dominance over the area around Wayrest and the Bjousae River, and basically threatened to burn Wayrest and Evermore if they didn't accept the rule of Orsinium. Naturally, the Bretons and Redguards didn't like this antagonistic behavior, and responded to the threat with the only option besides submission.

    Conflicts in the Iliac Bay, in general, tend to be more geopolitical in nature, and as a result frequently those who exerting hostility find themselves at the end of a sword.
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  • Nomadic_Atmoran
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    I dont think Id make major changes outside of the EP.


    For AD I would simply make the Veiled Heritance survive on in a much more low-key manner once the major players had been wiped out. The VH beliefs weren't localized to a handful of nobles angry they had lost some power. What Kin Lady Estre had tapped into in an attempt to regain power was something always culturally there. And once that can of worms has been opened. Its very hard to make it go away. The VH should have evolved and continued on once Estre was gone.

    With the DC I would have made it more obvious that the Orcs were not fully onboard and that the ones involved were either outsiders amongst their own people or extremely loyal to Kurog. Until we get a look at Orsinium we have no real indications that the Orcs of Wrothgar are as resistant to the idea of a unified people as they really are. Some lore books and dialogue through out the base DC story would have been more than enough to establish this.

    The EP needs the most change. The Dunmer and Argonians should very much be on a knifes edge at risk of war with each other. Its only been 10 years since the Akaviri invasion and the Argonians being freed. Even if everyones to believe the Dunmer willingly went along with giving up their slaves there is no way they would suddenly become reserved when it comes to how they see the Argonians. Nor should the Argonians be so quiet about having to tolerate their former oppressors. The Nords are also entirely too chummy and dopey in their portrayal. The base game does a poor job of creating friction between these three races and the few times they seem to not get along the solution is so simple that its obvious the writers had no idea what to do with this faction. ZOS has since gone back and removed what little obvious hostility between the Dunmer and Argonians there was originally.
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  • Destai
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    beagles wrote: »
    That the EP makes no sense, I can get that. I find it heroically inspiring, though: the argonians allied because the Hist said to--and by allying, they were able to force an end to the slavery of their people.

    Ofc, when they got up and left after a while, the Dunmer went right back to old habits--but for a while, it was a cause worth fighting for. It's the sort of "get up and take a stance" that's eye-catching in a heroic tale, though the Pact itself is ... well, it was never going to last. The Dunmer don't seem to respect anyone else, which to be fair to them, seems to be a general elven trait with perhaps all but the wood elves.

    The Dominion...oh goodness. The writer in me just flails at this alliance. The khajiit come across has having little motivation other than being victims. They were forced into their situation, to ally with the high elves who would eventually like to see and end to all mortality. They have no fault and are set up for a player's sympathy, which bothers me. In fiction, we see this all the time--a hero to whom bad things happen, but it is never their fault.

    Where is the fun in that?

    There's a wince-worthy quest where the player is taken slowly through Rimmen, to point out how much the khajiit are victims and are suffering. This is despite that they're some of the strongest mages, thieves, swordsfolk, martial artists, fine artists, and so on in the game. They have the power to influence heavenly bodies; there is very little they are not capable of. They are a race capable of everything, and yet...

    Characters need flaws, and the khajiit don't seem to have them other than being unfairly mistrusted.

    The queen of the Dominion--I wish she was a little less taking a stand against everything her people stand for, in order to make her appealing. She needed to be inspiring as a leader, just. ...

    I suppose the way she was constructed made it a little too obvious? She has some wonderful storylines, but as a character, these traits stand out and risk defining her, instead of her standing on her own.

    I suppose if I had a wish, it would be: to bring back some of the older concept lore for the high elves. Have their leadership represent more of their culture instead of being inspiring because she stands against it. ...then from there, give the khajiit ...some flaws, both as a race, and as for their reasons for joining their alliance.

    As a mer-lover myself, this post rings so true. I always loved the lore of the Dunmer and the inability to choose one of the Great Houses is a true tragedy. Morrowind was a great game, with many factions to explore, it always surprised that wasn't done here more.

    Queen Ayrenn seems out of place for sure. She's got some progressive goals, but it's never explained where she got those ideas from, they seem to have formed in a vacuum. There's not even a hint of Altermi superiority, which even with the most progressive minded mer, would still be there. I feel like there'd still be a hint of Mer saviorism.

    I also wonder if an alliance between Orcs and Nords would be feasible. They both have a warrior-driven culture, are neighbors on the Western Skyrim front, and would have a common enemy of the Reachmen.

    The Lore of ESO has done a decent job of showing the xenophobic and isolationist undercurrents in each culture, I just feel like they'd play out way differently.
    Edited by Destai on April 14, 2021 9:16PM
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  • VaranisArano
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    I love the way the Ebonheart Pact questline throws you right into the conflicts of the Three Banners War and give you reason to get invested in the Pact vs the Covenant and the Dominion.

    Disclaimer: I played the Pact questline first, so I'm biased.

    By the time you've finished your first starter zone in the Pact, the Covenant are already those evil necromancer jerks who burned Bleakrock. It's still burning and, yes, I'm still bitter. After Bal Foyen you've made the bitter decision of which allies you'll save and which you'll abandon to the Covenant strike force. In Stonefalls, you finally get to strike back, only to have your victory soured at the last as the Covenant General kills one of your friends and allies. Evil Covenant jerks!

    Then you get to Shadowfen. All that hatred that built up towards the Covenant over three zones? The Dominion topped it in a single zone. Skin-stealing jerks and
    baby-killing, egg corrupting jerks!


    The Pact questline is the most fragmented of the Three in terms of telling a coherent story, but it stands head and shoulders above the others in terms of getting Pact players invested in fighting against the Covenant and Dominion. I hated them by the end.


    If I were going to change the Three Banners War, I would focus on giving the Dominion and Covenant players more reasons to be invested in fight against the Pact and against each other.
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  • VaranisArano
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    Destai wrote: »
    beagles wrote: »
    That the EP makes no sense, I can get that. I find it heroically inspiring, though: the argonians allied because the Hist said to--and by allying, they were able to force an end to the slavery of their people.

    Ofc, when they got up and left after a while, the Dunmer went right back to old habits--but for a while, it was a cause worth fighting for. It's the sort of "get up and take a stance" that's eye-catching in a heroic tale, though the Pact itself is ... well, it was never going to last. The Dunmer don't seem to respect anyone else, which to be fair to them, seems to be a general elven trait with perhaps all but the wood elves.

    The Dominion...oh goodness. The writer in me just flails at this alliance. The khajiit come across has having little motivation other than being victims. They were forced into their situation, to ally with the high elves who would eventually like to see and end to all mortality. They have no fault and are set up for a player's sympathy, which bothers me. In fiction, we see this all the time--a hero to whom bad things happen, but it is never their fault.

    Where is the fun in that?

    There's a wince-worthy quest where the player is taken slowly through Rimmen, to point out how much the khajiit are victims and are suffering. This is despite that they're some of the strongest mages, thieves, swordsfolk, martial artists, fine artists, and so on in the game. They have the power to influence heavenly bodies; there is very little they are not capable of. They are a race capable of everything, and yet...

    Characters need flaws, and the khajiit don't seem to have them other than being unfairly mistrusted.

    The queen of the Dominion--I wish she was a little less taking a stand against everything her people stand for, in order to make her appealing. She needed to be inspiring as a leader, just. ...

    I suppose the way she was constructed made it a little too obvious? She has some wonderful storylines, but as a character, these traits stand out and risk defining her, instead of her standing on her own.

    I suppose if I had a wish, it would be: to bring back some of the older concept lore for the high elves. Have their leadership represent more of their culture instead of being inspiring because she stands against it. ...then from there, give the khajiit ...some flaws, both as a race, and as for their reasons for joining their alliance.

    As a mer-lover myself, this post rings so true. I always loved the lore of the Dunmer and the inability to choose one of the Great Houses is a true tragedy. Morrowind was a great game, with many factions to explore, it always surprised that wasn't done here more.

    Queen Ayrenn seems out of place for sure. She's got some progressive goals, but it's never explained where she got those ideas from, they seem to have formed in a vacuum. There's not even a hint of Altermi superiority, which even with the most progressive minded mer, would still be there. I feel like there'd still be a hint of Mer saviorism.

    I also wonder if an alliance between Orcs and Nords would be feasible. They both have a warrior-driven culture, are neighbors on the Western Skyrim front, and would have a common enemy of the Reachmen.

    The Lore of ESO has done a decent job of showing the xenophobic and isolationist undercurrents in each culture, I just feel like they'd play out way differently.

    Oh, if you want the hint of Ayrenn's mer saviorism...

    Ayrennyourqueencommandseso.jpg
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  • psychotrip
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    Anumaril wrote: »
    the game needed factions

    Why?

    Edited by psychotrip on April 15, 2021 10:02AM
    No one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".

    We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.
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  • VaranisArano
    VaranisArano
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    psychotrip wrote: »
    Anumaril wrote: »
    the game needed factions

    Why?

    Because the Dev team's vision for PVP pulls very heavily from Dark Age of Camelot's AvAvA PVP. Since PVP was the original end game content, well, the need for three factions follows from that.

    By design, the Devs needed players split into three equal factions, so they built their Alliance quests accordingly to funnel players into PVP ready and willing to fight for their faction.

    ESO - as designed - needed factions.

    If you take away the need for factions to fuel the original end game PVP side of the base game, then we're probably looking at an entirely different game.


    (It should be noted that the ESO Devs seem to have taken a while to grasp what the fans of singleplayer TES games wanted, which was generally not "Let me do one questline and then hang out in PVP forever", and so gradually added Cadwell's Silver and Gold, PVE end game content, and eventually One Tamriel after they realized that mixed PvPvE was not to the taste of the majority of players and they had PVP performance issues. Factions are integral to the original design of the game. If the Devs had a do-over, I'm not sure they would have gone in the same direction.)
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  • psychotrip
    psychotrip
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    psychotrip wrote: »
    Anumaril wrote: »
    the game needed factions

    Why?

    Because the Dev team's vision for PVP pulls very heavily from Dark Age of Camelot's AvAvA PVP. Since PVP was the original end game content, well, the need for three factions follows from that.

    By design, the Devs needed players split into three equal factions, so they built their Alliance quests accordingly to funnel players into PVP ready and willing to fight for their faction.

    ESO - as designed - needed factions.

    If you take away the need for factions to fuel the original end game PVP side of the base game, then we're probably looking at an entirely different game.


    (It should be noted that the ESO Devs seem to have taken a while to grasp what the fans of singleplayer TES games wanted, which was generally not "Let me do one questline and then hang out in PVP forever", and so gradually added Cadwell's Silver and Gold, PVE end game content, and eventually One Tamriel after they realized that mixed PvPvE was not to the taste of the majority of players and they had PVP performance issues. Factions are integral to the original design of the game. If the Devs had a do-over, I'm not sure they would have gone in the same direction.)

    Precisely. So this was a want, not a need. I don't recall there being some huge request from the fanbase for an Elder Scrolls MMO focusing on a three-way pvp war.

    They tried to shoehorn Dark Age Of Camelot into an Elder Scrolls MMO, and the franchise has been paying for it ever since.

    Was it worth it?
    Edited by psychotrip on April 15, 2021 2:52PM
    No one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".

    We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.
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