Twice-Born Star and Shadow Mundus

sentientomega

How is that Mundus boon doing these days? I'd given up on it some years ago because it simply wasn't working, is it doing what it's supposed to these days?

If so, might TBS have a use once more? I can see my characters becoming now all light or medium rather than mostly heavy (as they have been for survivability reasons), depending on build, with Thief and Shadow as the TBS boons, if that set is any good again. But then this also begs the question, given the devs' trend for crit butchery, is it even worth considering crit *anything* now? For one thing, sorcerers very much need it for Surge.

If it is worth building for crit, 5/5 TBS, Thief and Shadow, then stacking crit chance from other sets? I typically use just crafting sets, but if I could get two stamps of, say, Mad Tinkerer, might that not help here?

NoSoup

Started thinking the same but I believe you get a better result from mather's sorrow, AY, TZO or Leviathan with the shadow mundus

NoSoup

TBS probably needs some love where it also buffs the strength of the mundus stones for it to ever become relevant again

sentientomega

Those definitely look good, but all I'm really trying to do is get to where I can consistently solo dolmens and public dungeons with lights and mediums.

My builds have always made use of Divines and Precise, and if I were to stick to just crafted sets, it'd be TBS, 3x Twilight's Embrace for mag or 3x Kvatch Gladiator for stam, and then whichever pair of 2-piece sets gave crit chance as a bonus. To aid a bit with self-healing, I've also considered 3x Naga Shaman (healing done and healing taken), and 2x Senche-raht’s Grit (healing done) to go with whichever 2-piece crit bonus, probably Assassin's Guile.

Why those last two? Because I tend to build towards survival, no matter what, but even more so now, wishing to convert from heavy to light/medium entirely.

Sangwyne

Thief definitely got a lot better in comparison to Shadow, there's now quite a bit more critical damage available in the game but very little critical chance after the recent nerf. If anything, I would say that in order to optimize your damage with TBS now, that Thief and either Atronach or Serpent would be the ideal choice, as making up for the lost critical chance is the first order of business for most builds and with the removal of Arcanist/Mooncalf and Tenacity on top of the nerfs to Minor/Major Intellect/Endurance, sustain took a hit as well. Everyone got 1000 base weapon/spell damage, making that less desirable as a choice of Mundus, and penetration is already quite high between the 8922 from Major/Minor Breach and 2108 from Gold Infused Crusher that tanks provide. Set bonuses value 129 recovery the same as 129 weapon/spell damage, but the Mundus stones grant 310 recovery vs 238 weapon/spell damage; if you need sustain, the choice seems clear to me.

sentientomega

For sure, I'd want to know how many resources a heavy attack did return with Update 29, I'm very keen on not just trusting recovery to work by itself.

Stahlor

Mundus stones are just too weak. Take Eternal Vigor for example, where the 5 piece bonus basically gives you more than serpent and atronarch mundus stone together. Why should you run TBS instead?

sentientomega

I intend to see what PTS testing will reveal, but in the meantime, another query.

For 2h weapon heavy weapons passive bonuses, swords or mauls?

Nick_Balza

Stahlor wrote: »

Mundus stones are just too weak. Take Eternal Vigor for example, where the 5 piece bonus basically gives you more than serpent and atronarch mundus stone together. Why should you run TBS instead?

TBS makes sense if there are absent sets, which able provide you with needed parameters.
For instance, if I need pen + crit damage - there is a point to use TBS.

Nevasca

Depends on context. In PvE TBS you go Thief+Shadow still and the result is a bit mediocre.

On PvP you can have some usefulness if you get a mundus stone bonus that you can't get elsewhere, like Lady for resistances or Steed for speed for example. I remember using TBS with Lady+Atronach on my Magden for a solo PvP build, really strong, gave me tristats which I needed, health and resistances without going Heavy Armor. Not BiS but still pretty good.

WrathOfInnos

TBS is still one set bonus short of being useful. If the mag/stam were combined and there was a line of crit or weapon/spell damage it would be pretty close to other sets.

Stahlor

Nick_Balza wrote: »

Stahlor wrote: »

Mundus stones are just too weak. Take Eternal Vigor for example, where the 5 piece bonus basically gives you more than serpent and atronarch mundus stone together. Why should you run TBS instead?

TBS makes sense if there are absent sets, which able provide you with needed parameters.
For instance, if I need pen + crit damage - there is a point to use TBS.

Then Spriggans + shadow mundus, would probably give you better stats?

Zer0_CooL

TBS is only of use for leveling since Mundusstone do not scale with your level and provide a bigger bonus than a single 5pcs set bonus.

ccfeeling

We spent really long time to reach 9 traits, but the only good 9 trait set is new moon, no more.

sentientomega

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

TBS is still one set bonus short of being useful. If the mag/stam were combined and there was a line of crit or weapon/spell damage it would be pretty close to other sets.

Even better, combine the mag, stam and health, then add a line of crit and another of damage, the lowest set bonus damage, not like Hundings, Julianos or NMA lol.

olsborg

NoSoup wrote: »

TBS probably needs some love where it also buffs the strength of the mundus stones for it to ever become relevant again

Yea this, it needs some love for sure, but there are a plethora of sets in the very same situation.

sentientomega

Well, I tested my TBSx5/Naga Shamanx3/Senche-raht's Gritx2/Assassin's Guilex2 set build with 11 different class builds, 7 magicka (including a vampire build) and 4 stamina ones.

I think you're all right, and I think that I'm better off sticking with the old set builds that I had haha, because I tested those on the PTS, and the result was even better, I could kill more efficiently without sacrificing much survivability.

Bodycounter

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

TBS is still one set bonus short of being useful. If the mag/stam were combined and there was a line of crit or weapon/spell damage it would be pretty close to other sets.

This. Combine the maximum magicka/stamina and/or drop the maximum health for spell/weapon damage or crit.

sentientomega

I like that idea! So, instead of this:

(2 items) Adds 1206 Maximum Health
(3 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Stamina
(4 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Magicka
(5 items) You can have two Mundus Stone boons at the same time.

It could be more like this:

(2 items) Adds 657 Critical Chance
(3 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Stamina
(3 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Magicka
(4 items) Adds 129 Weapon and Spell Damage
(5 items) You can have two Mundus Stone boons at the same time.

I think that damage ought to be enough, we still have the two boons, I might even go with Thief and Lover, if that actually came to pass.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

To Answer your first question, Shadow was meta for PVE DPS until last week on all magic classes. That had been true for quite a while. Now Thief is a better option most of the time, but its more debatable depending on the encounter.

Unfortunately, TBS is a dead set. The extra mundus just doesnt keep with other 5 piece bonuses and the 2-4 piece bonuses are very lackluster. That set would need a heafty buff to be considered competitive, at least from a damage perspective.

Maybe a new set called Thrice Born Star where you get three munduses (or is it Mundi? What is the plureal of Mundus? LOL).

Edit: So apparently Mundus is a Latin word meaning World, and the plural is indeed Mundi. Thanks Google.

WrathOfInnos

sentientomega wrote: »

I like that idea! So, instead of this:

(2 items) Adds 1206 Maximum Health
(3 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Stamina
(4 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Magicka
(5 items) You can have two Mundus Stone boons at the same time.

It could be more like this:

(2 items) Adds 657 Critical Chance
(3 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Stamina
(3 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Magicka
(4 items) Adds 129 Weapon and Spell Damage
(5 items) You can have two Mundus Stone boons at the same time.

I think that damage ought to be enough, we still have the two boons, I might even go with Thief and Lover, if that actually came to pass.

That would be too powerful IMO. Keep in mind that the Thief Mundus gives as much crit as the 4 and 5 piece bonuses on Mother’s Sorrow/Leviathan combined. In your example TBS also has the 2 and 3 piece bonuses of Sorrow/Levi plus an additional 129 Weapon/Spell Damage.

TBS needs one more line of stats (crit or damage) to be competitive for damage, not two. I think it could keep the line of health as an additional bonus to make up for the inconvenience of losing the 2nd mundus if you swap gear, and make it stand out as a 9 trait set. Health is pretty abundant now, and doesn’t affect its damage capabilities.

sentientomega

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

To Answer your first question, Shadow was meta for PVE DPS until last week on all magic classes. That had been true for quite a while. Now Thief is a better option most of the time, but its more debatable depending on the encounter.

Unfortunately, TBS is a dead set. The extra mundus just doesnt keep with other 5 piece bonuses and the 2-4 piece bonuses are very lackluster. That set would need a heafty buff to be considered competitive, at least from a damage perspective.

Maybe a new set called Thrice Born Star where you get three munduses (or is it Mundi? What is the plureal of Mundus? LOL).

Edit: So apparently Mundus is a Latin word meaning World, and the plural is indeed Mundi. Thanks Google.

Well, see, that's not what I'd read about Shadow boon. Thrice-Born Star! I like that. If they want people to use it, it has to really stand out, and be attractive. They could keep those stats as is, if people were able to take two extra boons instead of just the one.

But, as I said, my PTS testing has shown that I'm mostly fine with whatever I was using before, even moreso than when using TBS, though it might not've been wholly out of line to test Thief and Lover, but I didn't do that.

Also, thanks for the short lesson in Latin.

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

That would be too powerful IMO. Keep in mind that the Thief Mundus gives as much crit as the 4 and 5 piece bonuses on Mother’s Sorrow/Leviathan combined. In your example TBS also has the 2 and 3 piece bonuses of Sorrow/Levi plus an additional 129 Weapon/Spell Damage.

TBS needs one more line of stats (crit or damage) to be competitive for damage, not two. I think it could keep the line of health as an additional bonus to make up for the inconvenience of losing the 2nd mundus if you swap gear, and make it stand out as a 9 trait set. Health is pretty abundant now, and doesn’t affect its damage capabilities.

How is that too powerful? Frankly, older crafting sets need a boost, anyway. I mean, look at other stat sets, the newer ones, and the whole point of adding both options is so that both stamina and magicka builds can use them.

If anyone should intend on using TBS, they should build it around the remaining five non-shoulder, non-head gear slots, because there's usually nothing "special" to hog those slots. They could then still use a Monster set if they wanted to, plus whatever else for weapons and jewellery.

Zama666

Still love TBS.
It's flexible - I can just swap stones as needed.

For events, I usually pop in the Steed - to move around a little quicker.

Switch back after...

I feel special when I have two mundi....

Zama666

sentientomega wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

To Answer your first question, Shadow was meta for PVE DPS until last week on all magic classes. That had been true for quite a while. Now Thief is a better option most of the time, but its more debatable depending on the encounter.

Unfortunately, TBS is a dead set. The extra mundus just doesnt keep with other 5 piece bonuses and the 2-4 piece bonuses are very lackluster. That set would need a heafty buff to be considered competitive, at least from a damage perspective.

Maybe a new set called Thrice Born Star where you get three munduses (or is it Mundi? What is the plureal of Mundus? LOL).

Edit: So apparently Mundus is a Latin word meaning World, and the plural is indeed Mundi. Thanks Google.

Well, see, that's not what I'd read about Shadow boon. Thrice-Born Star! I like that. If they want people to use it, it has to really stand out, and be attractive. They could keep those stats as is, if people were able to take two extra boons instead of just the one.

But, as I said, my PTS testing has shown that I'm mostly fine with whatever I was using before, even moreso than when using TBS, though it might not've been wholly out of line to test Thief and Lover, but I didn't do that.

Also, thanks for the short lesson in Latin.

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

That would be too powerful IMO. Keep in mind that the Thief Mundus gives as much crit as the 4 and 5 piece bonuses on Mother’s Sorrow/Leviathan combined. In your example TBS also has the 2 and 3 piece bonuses of Sorrow/Levi plus an additional 129 Weapon/Spell Damage.

TBS needs one more line of stats (crit or damage) to be competitive for damage, not two. I think it could keep the line of health as an additional bonus to make up for the inconvenience of losing the 2nd mundus if you swap gear, and make it stand out as a 9 trait set. Health is pretty abundant now, and doesn’t affect its damage capabilities.

How is that too powerful? Frankly, older crafting sets need a boost, anyway. I mean, look at other stat sets, the newer ones, and the whole point of adding both options is so that both stamina and magicka builds can use them.

If anyone should intend on using TBS, they should build it around the remaining five non-shoulder, non-head gear slots, because there's usually nothing "special" to hog those slots. They could then still use a Monster set if they wanted to, plus whatever else for weapons and jewellery.

Three Mundi would be nice, but it would have to come at a cost, some nerf. Like 5% cost increase. Balance out the good & bad. Or the third one is random. Or the set acts like the D&D Wand of Wonder.

WrathOfInnos

sentientomega wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

To Answer your first question, Shadow was meta for PVE DPS until last week on all magic classes. That had been true for quite a while. Now Thief is a better option most of the time, but its more debatable depending on the encounter.

Unfortunately, TBS is a dead set. The extra mundus just doesnt keep with other 5 piece bonuses and the 2-4 piece bonuses are very lackluster. That set would need a heafty buff to be considered competitive, at least from a damage perspective.

Maybe a new set called Thrice Born Star where you get three munduses (or is it Mundi? What is the plureal of Mundus? LOL).

Edit: So apparently Mundus is a Latin word meaning World, and the plural is indeed Mundi. Thanks Google.

Well, see, that's not what I'd read about Shadow boon. Thrice-Born Star! I like that. If they want people to use it, it has to really stand out, and be attractive. They could keep those stats as is, if people were able to take two extra boons instead of just the one.

But, as I said, my PTS testing has shown that I'm mostly fine with whatever I was using before, even moreso than when using TBS, though it might not've been wholly out of line to test Thief and Lover, but I didn't do that.

Also, thanks for the short lesson in Latin.

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

That would be too powerful IMO. Keep in mind that the Thief Mundus gives as much crit as the 4 and 5 piece bonuses on Mother’s Sorrow/Leviathan combined. In your example TBS also has the 2 and 3 piece bonuses of Sorrow/Levi plus an additional 129 Weapon/Spell Damage.

TBS needs one more line of stats (crit or damage) to be competitive for damage, not two. I think it could keep the line of health as an additional bonus to make up for the inconvenience of losing the 2nd mundus if you swap gear, and make it stand out as a 9 trait set. Health is pretty abundant now, and doesn’t affect its damage capabilities.

How is that too powerful? Frankly, older crafting sets need a boost, anyway. I mean, look at other stat sets, the newer ones, and the whole point of adding both options is so that both stamina and magicka builds can use them.

I mean, I wouldn’t complain if it they buffed it to be Mother’s Sorrow + 129 Spell Damage. I’ll gladly use it if that happens. I just doubt that making TBS absolute meta for all Magicka builds is likely. Seems like a more reasonable request to ask for it to be balanced with existing overland/crafted sets, not buffed beyond any other option.

sentientomega

It's supposed to be ideal for any dps build, the idea being that they have stats both such stamina and magicka builds can use. It's not Mother's Sorrow because it doesn't have anywhere near the crit, just a small portion, and the max mag, which TBS has, anyway.

If TBS is to be a damage set, btw, it could be crit chance, damage or max dps stats, penetration, and the two boons. How would you balance it, exactly? Keeping the two boons bonus, you have three empty set bonuses, what would you fill them up with? And, as I said, the older, less powerful crafting sets need a boost to get them in line with newer sets.

WrathOfInnos

sentientomega wrote: »

It's supposed to be ideal for any dps build, the idea being that they have stats both such stamina and magicka builds can use. It's not Mother's Sorrow because it doesn't have anywhere near the crit, just a small portion, and the max mag, which TBS has, anyway.

I’m not sure if we’re saying the same thing. To clarify my point, if you are a Magicka DPS build using TBS to add the Thief Mundus with 7 divines, then currently you get these stats from the set:

- 1096 Max Mag + Stam
- 10% crit chance
- 1206 Max Health

If TBS were changed to combine the Mag and Stam into one bonus, so a line of 3% Spell Crit could be added, then it becomes

- 1096 Max Mag + Stam
- 13% Crit chance
- 1206 Max Health

Alternatively the health could be removed to make space for a line of crit chance, without even combining the Mag and Stam into one line, which would result in TBS being:

- 1096 Max Mag + Stam
- 13% Crit chance

Either one of the 2 options above would be very similar in power to Mother’s Sorrow:

- 1096 Max Mag
- 13% Spell Crit

or Leviathan

- 1096 Max Stam
- 13% Weapon Crit

So this would be fine, just the current form of TBS is underpowered by one set bonus. Another way to look at this is that tri stat resource is valued as half of single stat. You can see this by looking at triune trait or prismatic armor enchants. So the current 2-4 piece bonuses on TBS combined only have an effective stat weight of 2 standard set bonuses, where it really needs 3 to be balanced.

sentientomega

So how exactly would you arrange its set bonuses?

ACamaroGuy

I have a MagPlar that I use from time to time in Cyrodiil. I was think of adding TBS with Maw of the Infernal and Spinner's Garments. All in light with the Lady and the Apprentice mundus. Any thoughts?

Athan1

ACamaroGuy wrote: »

I have a MagPlar that I use from time to time in Cyrodiil. I was think of adding TBS with Maw of the Infernal and Spinner's Garments. All in light with the Lady and the Apprentice mundus. Any thoughts?

Neither of these sets works in Cyrodiil anymore.

ACamaroGuy

Athan1 wrote: »

ACamaroGuy wrote: »

I have a MagPlar that I use from time to time in Cyrodiil. I was think of adding TBS with Maw of the Infernal and Spinner's Garments. All in light with the Lady and the Apprentice mundus. Any thoughts?

Neither of these sets works in Cyrodiil anymore.

Thanks for the help. I'll try to figure out something different.