What allows some DKs to be nearly unkillable while dealing massive damage? (PvP)

bloodmoon

Heyo. I'm coming back to ESO after a long break and there's been a lot of changes, so I'm still catching up to that... but what I noticed recently is just how insanely powerful Dragonknights have gotten in PvP, and I'd like some expert opinion on the specifics.

I've been casually PvPing as a DK for 2 years, and I've tried out a few builds online through the times as well as experimented with my own, but I've never been able to achieve that stoopid 1vX power. So, last night, I decided to look at my tooltip when another DK sent me back to my ancestors within like 3-4 seconds:
> Frenzied Momentum, ~9000 damage
> Dizzying Swing, ~7000 damage
> Dizzying Swing, ~7000 damage
> Execute, ~9000 damage

So, understandably, the DK is running a Vateshran Maul for the Frenzied Momentum, and based on the vast majority of builds on YouTube right now, probably Malacath's Band of Brutality as well (we're talking Imp City, not Cyro btw). This much I can grasp. Now, I fought a couple of DKs like this and what I can't seem to figure out is:

• 1. Assuming it's a StamDK, how do they go from 30% HP to 90% HP within a second? I pack Fragmented Shield + Vigor, but it's not nearly as fast. Worse yet, with the PvP lag, it sometimes takes me 3-4 times pressing the skill for them to go off as intended (e.g. I'd hit Shield, then hit Vigor, but Vigor goes off without shield and I lose out on like 8k heals). Is it Green Dragon's Blood, or something else? No StamDK build I've ever checked out seems to run Green Dragon's or Coagulating Blood... Yet these StamDKs seem to have instant full-bar heals, and I'm not talking potions because they do it several times within 40 seconds. Is there something I'm missing?
  
• 2. Where is that insane burst damage coming from? I'm sitting at about 5000 weapon damage, with ~1400 physical pen (and the Noxious Breath armor reduction), and I can't seem to dish out the same amount of damage from my Dizzying Swing. It feels like most armor really mitigates my damage so I'm struggling to bring their HP down, yet if they're running Vateshran Maul (and not, say, Spriggan's), where are they getting their armor penetration and huge damage from?
  
• 2a. I see almost no Claws or Noxious Breath damage on me when I get reck'd by DKs. It's all Dizzying Swing spam, occasional Frenzied Momentum, and Execute, and I'm talking like multiple players, whether in Imp City or no-proc Cyro. Yet most builds keep telling you to run Claws and Noxious Breath; I understand Noxious Breath, but is Claws worth it anymore? I haven't seen it in my death tooltip ever since I came back to ESO. Did DOTs catch a fat L, and are folk just spamming straight single-target damage now?

Thanks for taking the time to check out my questions!

bloodmoon

P.S. I may also attribute getting pwned to me being out of touch as I haven't played ESO in a year. Pair that with the lag, that forces me to spam a skill 3-4 times until it actually goes off, and I find myself using several skills more than necessary thus wasting resources (e.g. hitting Vigor 4 times for it to go off, and on one occasion, it goes off once, on the other, I just wasted Vigor twice while being at 100% HP... or Noxious breath not going off on time, and then going off 3 times in a row.) This probably contributes to me sucking at my DK rn.

starlizard70ub17_ESO

I'll be following this to see the replies. My StamDK needs help also. I think the biggest problem facing StamDKs is that most of their skills work so much better as the magic version. Some skills don't even have a stamina morph. Leaving StamDKs stuck trying to be semi-hybrids or replying on weapon and other skills more.

Elo106

What sets are you running, what are your resistances buffed and unbuffed?
How much crit resist do you have?

bloodmoon

Elo106 wrote: »

What sets are you running, what are your resistances buffed and unbuffed?
How much crit resist do you have?

In Imperial City, currently:

GEAR
Balorgh - Heavy/Med - Impenetrable - Prismatic Defense
Eternal Vigor - Heavy - 3 Impen (Stamina enchant), 2 Infused (Prismatic enchant)
Front bar - 3/3 Agility 2H (Nirnhorned, Wep Dmg enchant) + Malacath's Band of Brutality
Back bar - Potentates S&B (Defending + Impenetrable, Crown Lethal Poisons)

Resistances unbuffed: Front bar - 19k Spell, 16k Phys; Back bar - 23k Spel, 19k Phys
Resistances buffed: Front bar - 25k, 22k, Back bar - 29k, 25k

Crit resist: Front bar - 2606, Back bar - 2733

General stats (with Artaeum Takeaway Broth)
Max Magicka - 14979, Recovery - 1119
Max Health - 29676, Recovery - 1278
Maximum Stamina - 30745, Recovery - 1935
Weapon damage (buffed) - 5073

Elo106

@bloodmoon
Seems alright your opponent is probably penning a lot of it thats why you get those big hits. Since you are running 6 heavy you will have to use block for defenses, rolls will be too expensive.

Make sure to use Vigor before you need it, activating it after taking damage is too late, you want to stay above 50% health or executioner will end you.

You can use Rally as burst heal.

IF you still feel squishy you can use Green Dragon Blood as a buff (you get the regeneration buffs for health and stam) and instead of tri pots you could run resistance potions. (expensive compared to tri pots)

Using Major Evasion will help you as well you can get it from either dual wield or medium armor, since you are in heavy you can get it from dual wield, blade cloak. 20% reduced AOE damage is huge.

When you get pressured like that a stun is sometimes worth more than a heal.

Waffennacht

23k 19k

We know based on what you said their running vate maul; the new passive is 3300 resistance removed

19700 15700

Sharpened 3276

16424 12424

Noxious Breath Major Breach 5948

10476 6476

Then they could be running lover mundus 2744-4196

7732 (max could be 6280) 3732 (2280)

You're then looking at mitigating 7732/660=11.7% damage-9.5% 3732/660= 5.6% damage - 3.4%

So that's just typical armor reduction. You're getting not much mitigation at all. And if they're running Malacath like u thought impen means nothing.

Not including the possibility of something like corrosive armor.


As for death recap it only shows the highest damage providers; they probably did use noxious breath but it wont be listed (it a not the last things that hit u, but most damage)

Edit: you're looking at 16720 worth of penetration

Against your best 29k becomes 12280 or 18.5 % damage mitigation

bloodmoon

Waffennacht wrote: »

23k 19k

We know based on what you said their running vate maul; the new passive is 3300 resistance removed

19700 15700

Sharpened 3276

16424 12424

Noxious Breath Major Breach 5948

10476 6476

Then they could be running lover mundus 2744-4196

7732 (max could be 6280) 3732 (2280)

You're then looking at mitigating 7732/660=11.7% damage-9.5% 3732/660= 5.6% damage - 3.4%

So that's just typical armor reduction. You're getting not much mitigation at all. And if they're running Malacath like u thought impen means nothing.

Not including the possibility of something like corrosive armor.


As for death recap it only shows the highest damage providers; they probably did use noxious breath but it wont be listed (it a not the last things that hit u, but most damage)

Edit: you're looking at 16720 worth of penetration

Against your best 29k becomes 12280 or 18.5 % damage mitigation

Thank you for doing the math. That's actually really dope, because I never managed to dig that deep into the math behind ESO skills, so I really appreciate you breaking it down for me in concrete numbers and explanations!

Sangwyne

bloodmoon wrote: »

Heyo. I'm coming back to ESO after a long break and there's been a lot of changes, so I'm still catching up to that... but what I noticed recently is just how insanely powerful Dragonknights have gotten in PvP, and I'd like some expert opinion on the specifics.

Wait, people still think Stam DK is viable in PvP? Bro, we literally have zero good heals, zero burst, zero sustain and zero purges, despite being the DOT class. Other classes have decent in-class heals, like Clannfear or Arctic Blast, Stam DK is forced to run Vigor and spam it for dear life because we don't have anything else. We don't have any delayed damage skills like Shalks or Daedric Curse so that we can burst people down, just DOTs that are balanced around dealing damage for 14s but get purged in two. Our sustain is tied entirely to our ult, meaning we have to give up offensive pressure to defend ourselves, and even then it's quite bad. And despite the fact that the entire class is BUILT around applying DOTs, we have no way of removing them ourselves. Somehow people got it into their heads that DK is tanky because they run heavy armor and a lot of health; no, we run those builds because we HAVE to as a melee-only class with no escapes and no good heals.

bloodmoon wrote: »

• 1. Assuming it's a StamDK, how do they go from 30% HP to 90% HP within a second?

What do you mean, "assuming"? Are you sure it isn't a Warden then?

bloodmoon wrote: »

Is it Green Dragon's Blood, or something else? No StamDK build I've ever checked out seems to run Green Dragon's or Coagulating Blood...

You're right, noone runs those, because they suck. They heal for a whopping 5k when you're already in execute range. Great.

bloodmoon wrote: »

[*] 2. Where is that insane burst damage coming from? I'm sitting at about 5000 weapon damage, with ~1400 physical pen (and the Noxious Breath armor reduction), and I can't seem to dish out the same amount of damage from my Dizzying Swing.

I can tell you right now, it's not coming from DK.

bloodmoon wrote: »

[*]2a. I see almost no Claws or Noxious Breath damage on me when I get reck'd by DKs. It's all Dizzying Swing spam, occasional Frenzied Momentum, and Execute, and I'm talking like multiple players, whether in Imp City or no-proc Cyro. Yet most builds keep telling you to run Claws and Noxious Breath; I understand Noxious Breath, but is Claws worth it anymore? I haven't seen it in my death tooltip ever since I came back to ESO. Did DOTs catch a fat L, and are folk just spamming straight single-target damage now?

Exactly, DK is so bad that they don't even BOTHER to use class skills anymore. It isn't that DOTs caught a fat L, DK did.

Sangwyne

Sangwyne wrote: »

bloodmoon wrote: »

Heyo. I'm coming back to ESO after a long break and there's been a lot of changes, so I'm still catching up to that... but what I noticed recently is just how insanely powerful Dragonknights have gotten in PvP, and I'd like some expert opinion on the specifics.

Wait, people still think Stam DK is viable in PvP? Bro, we literally have zero good heals, zero burst, zero sustain and zero purges, despite being the DOT class. Other classes have decent in-class heals, like Clannfear or Arctic Blast, Stam DK is forced to run Vigor and spam it for dear life because we don't have anything else. We don't have any delayed damage skills like Shalks or Daedric Curse so that we can burst people down, just DOTs that are balanced around dealing damage for 14s but get purged in two. Our sustain is tied entirely to our ult, meaning we have to give up offensive pressure to defend ourselves, and even then it's quite bad. And despite the fact that the entire class is BUILT around applying DOTs, we have no way of removing them ourselves. Somehow people got it into their heads that DK is tanky because they run heavy armor and a lot of health; no, we run those builds because we HAVE to as a melee-only class with no escapes and no good heals.

bloodmoon wrote: »

• 1. Assuming it's a StamDK, how do they go from 30% HP to 90% HP within a second?

What do you mean, "assuming"? Are you sure it isn't a Warden then?

bloodmoon wrote: »

Is it Green Dragon's Blood, or something else? No StamDK build I've ever checked out seems to run Green Dragon's or Coagulating Blood...

You're right, noone runs those, because they suck. They heal for a whopping 5k when you're already in execute range. Great.

bloodmoon wrote: »

[*] 2. Where is that insane burst damage coming from? I'm sitting at about 5000 weapon damage, with ~1400 physical pen (and the Noxious Breath armor reduction), and I can't seem to dish out the same amount of damage from my Dizzying Swing.

I can tell you right now, it's not coming from DK.

bloodmoon wrote: »

[*]2a. I see almost no Claws or Noxious Breath damage on me when I get reck'd by DKs. It's all Dizzying Swing spam, occasional Frenzied Momentum, and Execute, and I'm talking like multiple players, whether in Imp City or no-proc Cyro. Yet most builds keep telling you to run Claws and Noxious Breath; I understand Noxious Breath, but is Claws worth it anymore? I haven't seen it in my death tooltip ever since I came back to ESO. Did DOTs catch a fat L, and are folk just spamming straight single-target damage now?

Exactly, DK is so bad that they don't even BOTHER to use class skills anymore. It isn't that DOTs caught a fat L, DK did.

I highly suggest that if you ever find yourself up against a DK, that you put as much DOT pressure as possibly on them; DOTs are a great way to bypass the 3% max health limitation on incoming damage from Corrosive Armor, and DKs have no in-class ability to allow them to purge them, just the Purge skill, which costs an outrageous amount of Magicka and will leave them with absolutely none left for anything else.

fred4

I think stam DK is solid. As good as stamden or stamcro? I don't know, but solid.

Question 1: How do they heal? Rally, Vigor, Cauterize and health regen. Fragmented Shield is still popular and you want something to give you the Minor Brutality. There are alternatives to getting the latter, notably Fossilize.

Health regen. You can run Eternal Vigor (esp. if you run Fossilize). You also want gold food. I run Alessian + Willow's Path in medium, a build I haven't changed since last patch and which yields 3K to 6K health regen with the new red Strategic Reserve CP star. A bit counter-intuitive using that on a DK. It depends on whether you are leaping frequently for the sustain or more strategically, like me, for executing people.

I find Eternal Vigor questionable. You shouldn't need that much magicka sustain. One way to get your damage up is minimizing magicka consumption, allowing you to use a different set. While Dizzying is the better spammable (some people will say: by far) I use Stone Giant for that reason. It covers the Minor Brutality and base mag-regen is enough for Volatile Armor and Cauterize. This means I can use a Physical Resistance + Health + Stamina potion, which fixes the DKs resistance imbalance and increases the Alessian bonus.

Question 2: You pen is low. Between a Sharpened Maul and Noxious Breath you should total at least 11K, before CP. Maybe I read that wrong. I personally like Noxious for the NB detection utility and I think both DOTs are still good, albeit maybe not prominent on a death recap. That said, any stamina class can use Pierce Armor (1H+S), which was buffed to include the Major and Minor pen debuffs against a single target. Furthermore they may backbar a Master's 1H+S weapon set, which gives another burst heal. I wouldn't run Potentates anymore. Overnerfed. If nothing else try 2x Critical Riposte (crafted) esp. in Cyro.

This patch, people are so squishy, maybe DKs are indeed only spamming Dizzying ... and Pierce Armor.

Let's quickly mention something else. Deadly Strike. With the weapon damage everyone has gotten, it's quite easy to hit that 5K mark you're hitting. At that sort of weapon damage Deadly Strike is very effective. I'm going to a try a dual-wield DOT build at some point, perhaps with Master's DW.