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Yup yup, leave a dungeon because fake healer with friend who wont kick yup good reason to make me wait 10 min
Seriously how many years before you stop doing this to us
Seriously how many years before you stop doing this to us
8
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Veles✭✭✭✭Years ago, when there was a loud and joyful news shows that the Group tool is completely rewritten from the ground up, we were delighted. On release it worked, not perfect, but it worked.
Then there were people who did not learn to play, did not setup their characters and unprepared decided that they are ready to to master veteran content. For obvious reasons, players left their group, because it was simply impossible to overcome the dungeon challenge. Those untrained players were terribly angry about it. They were angry that no one wants to carry them through content for which they are not ready. ZOS are very fond of casual players and in every possible way trying to help them and as a hospitable host listened to them.
Penalties were introduced. But for some reason, after that, they stopped listening to players, who said that in most cases a penalty is given unfairly. And for so many years we have not been able to prove to them that it is time to remove the penalty.
2 -
Daemons_Bane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Years ago, when there was a loud and joyful news shows that the Group tool is completely rewritten from the ground up, we were delighted. On release it worked, not perfect, but it worked.
Then there were people who did not learn to play, did not setup their characters and unprepared decided that they are ready to to master veteran content. For obvious reasons, players left their group, because it was simply impossible to overcome the dungeon challenge. Those untrained players were terribly angry about it. They were angry that no one wants to carry them through content for which they are not ready. ZOS are very fond of casual players and in every possible way trying to help them and as a hospitable host listened to them.
Penalties were introduced. But for some reason, after that, they stopped listening to players, who said that in most cases a penalty is given unfairly. And for so many years we have not been able to prove to them that it is time to remove the penalty.
[snip] I disagree that this should be why.. I see it as a way to prevent people from instantly leaving, just because they don't like the dungeon that they end up in.. tanks/healers get a dungeon in less than 1 minute, but damage dealers can easily wait 30+ min.. wating half an hour, just to have tank/heal skip away.? Thats a kick in the nuts
[Edited to remove Baiting]Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on March 15, 2021 5:17PM7 -
Veles✭✭✭✭Daemons_Bane wrote: »[snip] I disagree that this should be why.. I see it as a way to prevent people from instantly leaving, just because they don't like the dungeon that they end up in.. tanks/healers get a dungeon in less than 1 minute, but damage dealers can easily wait 30+ min.. wating half an hour, just to have tank/heal skip away.? Thats a kick in the nuts
I completely agree. This was also one of the reasons. But even after the introduction of a penalty, tanks and healers continued to immediately leave the group if they fell into an uncomfortable dungeon. The penalty not only did not solve the problem, but made the situation extremely aggravated due to the often unfair punishments. I think you know what I mean, and you too have been in situations like this.
The described problem must be solved, but not in this way. It doesn't work as it should.Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on March 15, 2021 5:17PM0 -
Daemons_Bane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Daemons_Bane wrote: »[snip] I disagree that this should be why.. I see it as a way to prevent people from instantly leaving, just because they don't like the dungeon that they end up in.. tanks/healers get a dungeon in less than 1 minute, but damage dealers can easily wait 30+ min.. wating half an hour, just to have tank/heal skip away.? Thats a kick in the nuts
I completely agree. This was also one of the reasons. But even after the introduction of a penalty, tanks and healers continued to immediately leave the group if they fell into an uncomfortable dungeon. The penalty not only did not solve the problem, but made the situation extremely aggravated due to the often unfair punishments. I think you know what I mean, and you too have been in situations like this.
The described problem must be solved, but not in this way. It doesn't work as it should.
I see next to no leavers these days, unless it's in a pledge dungeon with some bosses already dead.. these days, a lot of players can finish the dungeons in less time than it takes to wait out the penaltyEdited by ZOS_ConnorG on March 15, 2021 5:18PM1 -
Eso101rus✭✭✭✭amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »
Fake or low dps with “quester” builds don’t help, my heart sinks every time I look at the dps on first add pull and I know they won’t be able to complete the dungeon.3 -
Shiredo✭✭✭If you think about it, there's nothing much that can be done by ZOS. Some kind of punishment is needed for leaving or getting kicked.1 -
amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »
Fake or low dps with “quester” builds don’t help, my heart sinks every time I look at the dps on first add pull and I know they won’t be able to complete the dungeon.
Queueing into a random normal you can look past this but in a vet when you are doing 80%+ of the dps I always politely let the other dps know that he isn't quite ready for vet yet. I use the dungeon finder a lot and its hard for me to remember getting fake tanks or healers, it happens rarely, but usually they can fulfill the role (might not be full tank but he taunts the mobs and survives).0 -
caperb✭✭✭✭✭
✭What´s wrong with a fake healer, except if it is a vDLC HM?amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »
That is not true at all, unless it is a vet DLC hardmode, which I already excluded in my comment.1 -
preevious✭✭✭✭✭
✭What´s wrong with a fake healer, except if it is a vDLC HM?amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »
That is not true at all, unless it is a vet DLC hardmode, which I already excluded in my comment.
This is totally true.
3 DPS does less damage than 2 in each case.
Because if no heal, you have to heal yourself and/or move around a lot, lessening your DPS. You also lose much sustain/buffs.
If no tank, you have to chase the boss around like an idiot, and have to kite, lessening your DPS. You also lose much buffs/debuffs.
A fake tank and a fake heal is --- > ALWAYS < --- a detriment to his group. Even in normal FG1, he lowers the group's DPS.
The rest is just justification for toxic and selfish behaviours.
In premade, do as you will. 3/4DDs, all you want. You'll be less efficient, but if you all agree, all is fine.
If you party find your way as a fake tank/heal, you are not an hero .. you are an hurdle.
5 -
caperb✭✭✭✭✭
✭What´s wrong with a fake healer, except if it is a vDLC HM?amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »
That is not true at all, unless it is a vet DLC hardmode, which I already excluded in my comment.
This is totally true.
Again, that is not true at all.
3 DPS does less damage than 2 in each case.What´s wrong with a fake healer, except if it is a vDLC HM?amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »
That is not true at all, unless it is a vet DLC hardmode, which I already excluded in my comment.
xD seriously?
No, 3 DD's won't do less DPS than 2 in each case. I know not everyone agrees about when you start to need a healer for higher DPS, but 'in each case' rules out all other possibilities. That is why I included an exception WHEN a healer is definitely needed. To clarify, I'll quote my earlier post:What´s wrong with a fake healer, except if it is a vDLC HM?
Because if no heal, you have to heal yourself and/or move around a lot, lessening your DPS. You also lose much sustain/buffs.What´s wrong with a fake healer, except if it is a vDLC HM?amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »
That is not true at all, unless it is a vet DLC hardmode, which I already excluded in my comment.
Ah, this clarifies a bit. You think that HEALS are necessary in most dungeon content.
'
Well, to be honest, they aren't. In most content the incoming damage is so low that only the health recovery of the players will be enough to survive. In veteran content players usually have to kite a bit and increase their damage to take out big mob packs fast, but that's it. In DLC content you have to take care of mechanics, but if they are covered then all is fine. Yeh maybe have 1 player slot a group burst heal, but that isn't a full healer.
And about movement, you always have to move right? Dungeons aren't dummy parses, though being able to keep up your rotation while kiting is what seperates the good from the bad DD's.
You also assume players lose sustain and buffs, again not true at all. Most tanks already bring a lot of group buff sets like SPC/Olo, PA, Yolna, Symphony etc. If you have at least 1 magicka DD in your group you also have orbs, which means you already have a lot of sustain in your group. Easy to fit magickasteal on the skillbar of one of the players and done, more sustain than you will ever need. Still no healer.
If no tank, you have to chase the boss around like an idiot, and have to kite, lessening your DPS. You also lose much buffs/debuffs.What´s wrong with a fake healer, except if it is a vDLC HM?amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »
That is not true at all, unless it is a vet DLC hardmode, which I already excluded in my comment.
Agreed, a tank is vital. Depending on the content that can be a player who slots taunt and stands still, or a real tank with all the necessary CC tools and group buffs in his kit. Without a tank you just can't DPS as easily as with.
But my comment and the thread was not about tanks, it was about healers. So what am I missing here?
A fake tank and a fake heal is --- > ALWAYS < --- a detriment to his group. Even in normal FG1, he lowers the group's DPS.What´s wrong with a fake healer, except if it is a vDLC HM?amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »
That is not true at all, unless it is a vet DLC hardmode, which I already excluded in my comment.
The rest is just justification for toxic and selfish behaviours.
By now I just start questioning if you are being serious or you just never have been into dungeons. Stating that in nFG1 a fake healer lowers the group DPS must be a joke right?
In premade, do as you will. 3/4DDs, all you want. You'll be less efficient, but if you all agree, all is fine.What´s wrong with a fake healer, except if it is a vDLC HM?amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »
That is not true at all, unless it is a vet DLC hardmode, which I already excluded in my comment.
Lol no.
It is clear you don't really understand what you are talking about when you state that players will be less efficient in a 3DD setup. I do both premades and randoms, but in the premades we always decide to go with the fastest setup unless we are doing some achievement run. And in almost all cases, this fastest setup means 3 pure DD's or 3 DD's with one who brings magickasteal.
I don't get where the 4DD setup is coming from, thought this thread was about 1 fake healer, not about having only DD's at all.
If you party find your way as a fake tank/heal, you are not an hero .. you are an hurdle.What´s wrong with a fake healer, except if it is a vDLC HM?amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »
That is not true at all, unless it is a vet DLC hardmode, which I already excluded in my comment.
Who is talking about heroes or hurdles? Nobody is trying to be a hero, but immediately labeling false healers as a hurdle (when the opposite is true) is quite toxic.0 -
preevious✭✭✭✭✭
✭What´s wrong with a fake healer, except if it is a vDLC HM?amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »
That is not true at all, unless it is a vet DLC hardmode, which I already excluded in my comment.
This is totally true.
Again, that is not true at all.
3 DPS does less damage than 2 in each case.What´s wrong with a fake healer, except if it is a vDLC HM?amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »
That is not true at all, unless it is a vet DLC hardmode, which I already excluded in my comment.
xD seriously?
No, 3 DD's won't do less DPS than 2 in each case. I know not everyone agrees about when you start to need a healer for higher DPS, but 'in each case' rules out all other possibilities. That is why I included an exception WHEN a healer is definitely needed. To clarify, I'll quote my earlier post:What´s wrong with a fake healer, except if it is a vDLC HM?
Because if no heal, you have to heal yourself and/or move around a lot, lessening your DPS. You also lose much sustain/buffs.What´s wrong with a fake healer, except if it is a vDLC HM?amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »
That is not true at all, unless it is a vet DLC hardmode, which I already excluded in my comment.
Ah, this clarifies a bit. You think that HEALS are necessary in most dungeon content.
'
Well, to be honest, they aren't. In most content the incoming damage is so low that only the health recovery of the players will be enough to survive. In veteran content players usually have to kite a bit and increase their damage to take out big mob packs fast, but that's it. In DLC content you have to take care of mechanics, but if they are covered then all is fine. Yeh maybe have 1 player slot a group burst heal, but that isn't a full healer.
And about movement, you always have to move right? Dungeons aren't dummy parses, though being able to keep up your rotation while kiting is what seperates the good from the bad DD's.
You also assume players lose sustain and buffs, again not true at all. Most tanks already bring a lot of group buff sets like SPC/Olo, PA, Yolna, Symphony etc. If you have at least 1 magicka DD in your group you also have orbs, which means you already have a lot of sustain in your group. Easy to fit magickasteal on the skillbar of one of the players and done, more sustain than you will ever need. Still no healer.
If no tank, you have to chase the boss around like an idiot, and have to kite, lessening your DPS. You also lose much buffs/debuffs.What´s wrong with a fake healer, except if it is a vDLC HM?amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »
That is not true at all, unless it is a vet DLC hardmode, which I already excluded in my comment.
Agreed, a tank is vital. Depending on the content that can be a player who slots taunt and stands still, or a real tank with all the necessary CC tools and group buffs in his kit. Without a tank you just can't DPS as easily as with.
But my comment and the thread was not about tanks, it was about healers. So what am I missing here?
A fake tank and a fake heal is --- > ALWAYS < --- a detriment to his group. Even in normal FG1, he lowers the group's DPS.What´s wrong with a fake healer, except if it is a vDLC HM?amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »
That is not true at all, unless it is a vet DLC hardmode, which I already excluded in my comment.
The rest is just justification for toxic and selfish behaviours.
By now I just start questioning if you are being serious or you just never have been into dungeons. Stating that in nFG1 a fake healer lowers the group DPS must be a joke right?
In premade, do as you will. 3/4DDs, all you want. You'll be less efficient, but if you all agree, all is fine.What´s wrong with a fake healer, except if it is a vDLC HM?amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »
That is not true at all, unless it is a vet DLC hardmode, which I already excluded in my comment.
Lol no.
It is clear you don't really understand what you are talking about when you state that players will be less efficient in a 3DD setup. I do both premades and randoms, but in the premades we always decide to go with the fastest setup unless we are doing some achievement run. And in almost all cases, this fastest setup means 3 pure DD's or 3 DD's with one who brings magickasteal.
I don't get where the 4DD setup is coming from, thought this thread was about 1 fake healer, not about having only DD's at all.
If you party find your way as a fake tank/heal, you are not an hero .. you are an hurdle.What´s wrong with a fake healer, except if it is a vDLC HM?amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »
That is not true at all, unless it is a vet DLC hardmode, which I already excluded in my comment.
Who is talking about heroes or hurdles? Nobody is trying to be a hero, but immediately labeling false healers as a hurdle (when the opposite is true) is quite toxic.
Nice explanation, there, but let's agree to disagree.
I spend the majority of my play time in veteran dungeons, and I have eyes to see.
Overall group damage is around the same when having a heal and 2 DD than when having 3DDs. Probably a bit higher with the healer.
And it's so much more confortable.
Consider, too, that while you might be good, and do serious DPS, most fake heals (and fake tanks) do *** damage. They bring less DPS than I personnaly lose having to make do without an healer's buffs. I actually end up having to carry a cheater around because he's not even able to do anything right.
That's annoying to no end.
3DDs runs might only be more efficient when you do a premade with 4 competent person.
In party find? It's always a detriment. And I could witness it countless times.Edited by preevious on March 15, 2021 12:15PM2 -
caperb✭✭✭✭✭
✭What´s wrong with a fake healer, except if it is a vDLC HM?amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »
That is not true at all, unless it is a vet DLC hardmode, which I already excluded in my comment.
This is totally true.
Again, that is not true at all.
3 DPS does less damage than 2 in each case.What´s wrong with a fake healer, except if it is a vDLC HM?amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »
That is not true at all, unless it is a vet DLC hardmode, which I already excluded in my comment.
xD seriously?
No, 3 DD's won't do less DPS than 2 in each case. I know not everyone agrees about when you start to need a healer for higher DPS, but 'in each case' rules out all other possibilities. That is why I included an exception WHEN a healer is definitely needed. To clarify, I'll quote my earlier post:What´s wrong with a fake healer, except if it is a vDLC HM?
Because if no heal, you have to heal yourself and/or move around a lot, lessening your DPS. You also lose much sustain/buffs.What´s wrong with a fake healer, except if it is a vDLC HM?amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »
That is not true at all, unless it is a vet DLC hardmode, which I already excluded in my comment.
Ah, this clarifies a bit. You think that HEALS are necessary in most dungeon content.
'
Well, to be honest, they aren't. In most content the incoming damage is so low that only the health recovery of the players will be enough to survive. In veteran content players usually have to kite a bit and increase their damage to take out big mob packs fast, but that's it. In DLC content you have to take care of mechanics, but if they are covered then all is fine. Yeh maybe have 1 player slot a group burst heal, but that isn't a full healer.
And about movement, you always have to move right? Dungeons aren't dummy parses, though being able to keep up your rotation while kiting is what seperates the good from the bad DD's.
You also assume players lose sustain and buffs, again not true at all. Most tanks already bring a lot of group buff sets like SPC/Olo, PA, Yolna, Symphony etc. If you have at least 1 magicka DD in your group you also have orbs, which means you already have a lot of sustain in your group. Easy to fit magickasteal on the skillbar of one of the players and done, more sustain than you will ever need. Still no healer.
If no tank, you have to chase the boss around like an idiot, and have to kite, lessening your DPS. You also lose much buffs/debuffs.What´s wrong with a fake healer, except if it is a vDLC HM?amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »
That is not true at all, unless it is a vet DLC hardmode, which I already excluded in my comment.
Agreed, a tank is vital. Depending on the content that can be a player who slots taunt and stands still, or a real tank with all the necessary CC tools and group buffs in his kit. Without a tank you just can't DPS as easily as with.
But my comment and the thread was not about tanks, it was about healers. So what am I missing here?
A fake tank and a fake heal is --- > ALWAYS < --- a detriment to his group. Even in normal FG1, he lowers the group's DPS.What´s wrong with a fake healer, except if it is a vDLC HM?amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »
That is not true at all, unless it is a vet DLC hardmode, which I already excluded in my comment.
The rest is just justification for toxic and selfish behaviours.
By now I just start questioning if you are being serious or you just never have been into dungeons. Stating that in nFG1 a fake healer lowers the group DPS must be a joke right?
In premade, do as you will. 3/4DDs, all you want. You'll be less efficient, but if you all agree, all is fine.What´s wrong with a fake healer, except if it is a vDLC HM?amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »
That is not true at all, unless it is a vet DLC hardmode, which I already excluded in my comment.
Lol no.
It is clear you don't really understand what you are talking about when you state that players will be less efficient in a 3DD setup. I do both premades and randoms, but in the premades we always decide to go with the fastest setup unless we are doing some achievement run. And in almost all cases, this fastest setup means 3 pure DD's or 3 DD's with one who brings magickasteal.
I don't get where the 4DD setup is coming from, thought this thread was about 1 fake healer, not about having only DD's at all.
If you party find your way as a fake tank/heal, you are not an hero .. you are an hurdle.What´s wrong with a fake healer, except if it is a vDLC HM?amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »
That is not true at all, unless it is a vet DLC hardmode, which I already excluded in my comment.
Who is talking about heroes or hurdles? Nobody is trying to be a hero, but immediately labeling false healers as a hurdle (when the opposite is true) is quite toxic.
Nice explanation, there, but let's agree to disagree.
I spend the majority of my play time in veteran dungeons, and I have eyes to see.
Overall group damage is around the same when having a heal and 2 DD than when having 3DDs. Probably a bit higher with the healer.
And it's so much more confortable.
Consider, too, that while you might be good, and do serious DPS, most fake heals (and fake tanks) do *** damage. They bring less DPS than I personnaly lose having to make do without an healer's buffs. I actually end up having to carry a cheater around because he's not even able to do anything right.
That's annoying to no end.
3DDs runs might only be more efficient when you do a premade with 4 competent person.
In party find? It's always a detriment. And I could witness it countless times.
Yeh maybe it is better to agree to disagree then.
I indeed assumed that all 4 players are competent when talking about why a 3DD setup is faster. I mean you are not really missing the buffs when the tank brings them already, and no use to trying to buff the DD's their DPS with 10k each when the 3rd player could bring 50k+ himself. But if the players are not competent, do the buffs matter at all then? You won't buff *** DPS to god DPS. Rather have the dungeon go a bit faster than spending all eternity watching people try to roleplay with the mobs.
Edit: and to clarify, I mostly enter dungeons queued as tank or DD role.Edited by caperb on March 15, 2021 12:27PM0 -
zaria✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
A smart healer run as an DD with some off heals if not much healing is needed. Its not much difference between magic DD and healers outside some morphs and CP and gear obviously but on easy content I run a full DD setup with extended ritual and ritual of rebirth for healing.What´s wrong with a fake healer, except if it is a vDLC HM?amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »
That is not true at all, unless it is a vet DLC hardmode, which I already excluded in my comment.
This is totally true.
Again, that is not true at all.
3 DPS does less damage than 2 in each case.What´s wrong with a fake healer, except if it is a vDLC HM?amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »
That is not true at all, unless it is a vet DLC hardmode, which I already excluded in my comment.
xD seriously?
No, 3 DD's won't do less DPS than 2 in each case. I know not everyone agrees about when you start to need a healer for higher DPS, but 'in each case' rules out all other possibilities. That is why I included an exception WHEN a healer is definitely needed. To clarify, I'll quote my earlier post:What´s wrong with a fake healer, except if it is a vDLC HM?
Because if no heal, you have to heal yourself and/or move around a lot, lessening your DPS. You also lose much sustain/buffs.What´s wrong with a fake healer, except if it is a vDLC HM?amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »
That is not true at all, unless it is a vet DLC hardmode, which I already excluded in my comment.
Ah, this clarifies a bit. You think that HEALS are necessary in most dungeon content.
'
Well, to be honest, they aren't. In most content the incoming damage is so low that only the health recovery of the players will be enough to survive. In veteran content players usually have to kite a bit and increase their damage to take out big mob packs fast, but that's it. In DLC content you have to take care of mechanics, but if they are covered then all is fine. Yeh maybe have 1 player slot a group burst heal, but that isn't a full healer.
And about movement, you always have to move right? Dungeons aren't dummy parses, though being able to keep up your rotation while kiting is what seperates the good from the bad DD's.
You also assume players lose sustain and buffs, again not true at all. Most tanks already bring a lot of group buff sets like SPC/Olo, PA, Yolna, Symphony etc. If you have at least 1 magicka DD in your group you also have orbs, which means you already have a lot of sustain in your group. Easy to fit magickasteal on the skillbar of one of the players and done, more sustain than you will ever need. Still no healer.
If no tank, you have to chase the boss around like an idiot, and have to kite, lessening your DPS. You also lose much buffs/debuffs.What´s wrong with a fake healer, except if it is a vDLC HM?amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »
That is not true at all, unless it is a vet DLC hardmode, which I already excluded in my comment.
Agreed, a tank is vital. Depending on the content that can be a player who slots taunt and stands still, or a real tank with all the necessary CC tools and group buffs in his kit. Without a tank you just can't DPS as easily as with.
But my comment and the thread was not about tanks, it was about healers. So what am I missing here?
A fake tank and a fake heal is --- > ALWAYS < --- a detriment to his group. Even in normal FG1, he lowers the group's DPS.What´s wrong with a fake healer, except if it is a vDLC HM?amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »
That is not true at all, unless it is a vet DLC hardmode, which I already excluded in my comment.
The rest is just justification for toxic and selfish behaviours.
By now I just start questioning if you are being serious or you just never have been into dungeons. Stating that in nFG1 a fake healer lowers the group DPS must be a joke right?
In premade, do as you will. 3/4DDs, all you want. You'll be less efficient, but if you all agree, all is fine.What´s wrong with a fake healer, except if it is a vDLC HM?amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »
That is not true at all, unless it is a vet DLC hardmode, which I already excluded in my comment.
Lol no.
It is clear you don't really understand what you are talking about when you state that players will be less efficient in a 3DD setup. I do both premades and randoms, but in the premades we always decide to go with the fastest setup unless we are doing some achievement run. And in almost all cases, this fastest setup means 3 pure DD's or 3 DD's with one who brings magickasteal.
I don't get where the 4DD setup is coming from, thought this thread was about 1 fake healer, not about having only DD's at all.
If you party find your way as a fake tank/heal, you are not an hero .. you are an hurdle.What´s wrong with a fake healer, except if it is a vDLC HM?amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »
That is not true at all, unless it is a vet DLC hardmode, which I already excluded in my comment.
Who is talking about heroes or hurdles? Nobody is trying to be a hero, but immediately labeling false healers as a hurdle (when the opposite is true) is quite toxic.
Nice explanation, there, but let's agree to disagree.
I spend the majority of my play time in veteran dungeons, and I have eyes to see.
Overall group damage is around the same when having a heal and 2 DD than when having 3DDs. Probably a bit higher with the healer.
And it's so much more confortable.
Consider, too, that while you might be good, and do serious DPS, most fake heals (and fake tanks) do *** damage. They bring less DPS than I personnaly lose having to make do without an healer's buffs. I actually end up having to carry a cheater around because he's not even able to do anything right.
That's annoying to no end.
3DDs runs might only be more efficient when you do a premade with 4 competent person.
In party find? It's always a detriment. And I could witness it countless times.
Grinding just make you go in circles.
Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.1 -
preevious✭✭✭✭✭
✭What´s wrong with a fake healer, except if it is a vDLC HM?amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »
That is not true at all, unless it is a vet DLC hardmode, which I already excluded in my comment.
This is totally true.
Again, that is not true at all.
3 DPS does less damage than 2 in each case.What´s wrong with a fake healer, except if it is a vDLC HM?amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »
That is not true at all, unless it is a vet DLC hardmode, which I already excluded in my comment.
xD seriously?
No, 3 DD's won't do less DPS than 2 in each case. I know not everyone agrees about when you start to need a healer for higher DPS, but 'in each case' rules out all other possibilities. That is why I included an exception WHEN a healer is definitely needed. To clarify, I'll quote my earlier post:What´s wrong with a fake healer, except if it is a vDLC HM?
Because if no heal, you have to heal yourself and/or move around a lot, lessening your DPS. You also lose much sustain/buffs.What´s wrong with a fake healer, except if it is a vDLC HM?amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »
That is not true at all, unless it is a vet DLC hardmode, which I already excluded in my comment.
Ah, this clarifies a bit. You think that HEALS are necessary in most dungeon content.
'
Well, to be honest, they aren't. In most content the incoming damage is so low that only the health recovery of the players will be enough to survive. In veteran content players usually have to kite a bit and increase their damage to take out big mob packs fast, but that's it. In DLC content you have to take care of mechanics, but if they are covered then all is fine. Yeh maybe have 1 player slot a group burst heal, but that isn't a full healer.
And about movement, you always have to move right? Dungeons aren't dummy parses, though being able to keep up your rotation while kiting is what seperates the good from the bad DD's.
You also assume players lose sustain and buffs, again not true at all. Most tanks already bring a lot of group buff sets like SPC/Olo, PA, Yolna, Symphony etc. If you have at least 1 magicka DD in your group you also have orbs, which means you already have a lot of sustain in your group. Easy to fit magickasteal on the skillbar of one of the players and done, more sustain than you will ever need. Still no healer.
If no tank, you have to chase the boss around like an idiot, and have to kite, lessening your DPS. You also lose much buffs/debuffs.What´s wrong with a fake healer, except if it is a vDLC HM?amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »
That is not true at all, unless it is a vet DLC hardmode, which I already excluded in my comment.
Agreed, a tank is vital. Depending on the content that can be a player who slots taunt and stands still, or a real tank with all the necessary CC tools and group buffs in his kit. Without a tank you just can't DPS as easily as with.
But my comment and the thread was not about tanks, it was about healers. So what am I missing here?
A fake tank and a fake heal is --- > ALWAYS < --- a detriment to his group. Even in normal FG1, he lowers the group's DPS.What´s wrong with a fake healer, except if it is a vDLC HM?amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »
That is not true at all, unless it is a vet DLC hardmode, which I already excluded in my comment.
The rest is just justification for toxic and selfish behaviours.
By now I just start questioning if you are being serious or you just never have been into dungeons. Stating that in nFG1 a fake healer lowers the group DPS must be a joke right?
In premade, do as you will. 3/4DDs, all you want. You'll be less efficient, but if you all agree, all is fine.What´s wrong with a fake healer, except if it is a vDLC HM?amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »
That is not true at all, unless it is a vet DLC hardmode, which I already excluded in my comment.
Lol no.
It is clear you don't really understand what you are talking about when you state that players will be less efficient in a 3DD setup. I do both premades and randoms, but in the premades we always decide to go with the fastest setup unless we are doing some achievement run. And in almost all cases, this fastest setup means 3 pure DD's or 3 DD's with one who brings magickasteal.
I don't get where the 4DD setup is coming from, thought this thread was about 1 fake healer, not about having only DD's at all.
If you party find your way as a fake tank/heal, you are not an hero .. you are an hurdle.What´s wrong with a fake healer, except if it is a vDLC HM?amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »
That is not true at all, unless it is a vet DLC hardmode, which I already excluded in my comment.
Who is talking about heroes or hurdles? Nobody is trying to be a hero, but immediately labeling false healers as a hurdle (when the opposite is true) is quite toxic.
Nice explanation, there, but let's agree to disagree.
I spend the majority of my play time in veteran dungeons, and I have eyes to see.
Overall group damage is around the same when having a heal and 2 DD than when having 3DDs. Probably a bit higher with the healer.
And it's so much more confortable.
Consider, too, that while you might be good, and do serious DPS, most fake heals (and fake tanks) do *** damage. They bring less DPS than I personnaly lose having to make do without an healer's buffs. I actually end up having to carry a cheater around because he's not even able to do anything right.
That's annoying to no end.
3DDs runs might only be more efficient when you do a premade with 4 competent person.
In party find? It's always a detriment. And I could witness it countless times.
Yeh maybe it is better to agree to disagree then.
I indeed assumed that all 4 players are competent when talking about why a 3DD setup is faster. I mean you are not really missing the buffs when the tank brings them already, and no use to trying to buff the DD's their DPS with 10k each when the 3rd player could bring 50k+ himself. But if the players are not competent, do the buffs matter at all then? You won't buff *** DPS to god DPS. Rather have the dungeon go a bit faster than spending all eternity watching people try to roleplay with the mobs.
Edit: and to clarify, I mostly enter dungeons queued as tank or DD role.
Sure, yes, buffs aren't going to make someone good at DPS.
But since I know what I'm doing, the buffs matters a great deal, to me.
I mean, I don't derive unatural pleasure reading big numbers, but when I'm over 50% of overall's group damage on a 3 DD run, I can tell that someone is being carried, and that something is very wrong.
I might sound overly aggressive (if that's the case, I'm sorry) .. but these day, 3 runs out of 4 I end up with have a fake something. And 3 out of 4 of these instances, the fake something is hillariously bad at being a DPS.
I mean, if your DPS won't make a difference, how is bothering others ok?
(again, I'm not targetting you .. I'm targetting overly confident DPS queuing as heals (or tanks))
When I party find in DLC dungeon, it's a bit better, people are more respectfull, there, and half of the runs are with a normal party.0 -
CompM4s✭✭✭✭✭.What´s wrong with a fake healer, except if it is a vDLC HM?amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »
That is not true at all, unless it is a vet DLC hardmode, which I already excluded in my comment.
This is totally true.
3 DPS does less damage than 2 in each case.
Because if no heal, you have to heal yourself and/or move around a lot, lessening your DPS. You also lose much sustain/buffs.
If no tank, you have to chase the boss around like an idiot, and have to kite, lessening your DPS. You also lose much buffs/debuffs.
A fake tank and a fake heal is --- > ALWAYS < --- a detriment to his group. Even in normal FG1, he lowers the group's DPS.
The rest is just justification for toxic and selfish behaviours.
In premade, do as you will. 3/4DDs, all you want. You'll be less efficient, but if you all agree, all is fine.
If you party find your way as a fake tank/heal, you are not an hero .. you are an hurdle.
3dps and 1 tank always best for vet dlcs. mag dps slot regen and thats more than enough. Mechanics are mostly avoiding oneshots and standing outside of red circles. Even better, a tank can equip something like bogdans and help with the group heals. Fake tanks are problems for vet dlcs and some reg vet dungeons
A dps rotating one heal in between damage does not lower the group dps more than having a dedicated healer.0 -
preevious✭✭✭✭✭
✭.What´s wrong with a fake healer, except if it is a vDLC HM?amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »
That is not true at all, unless it is a vet DLC hardmode, which I already excluded in my comment.
This is totally true.
3 DPS does less damage than 2 in each case.
Because if no heal, you have to heal yourself and/or move around a lot, lessening your DPS. You also lose much sustain/buffs.
If no tank, you have to chase the boss around like an idiot, and have to kite, lessening your DPS. You also lose much buffs/debuffs.
A fake tank and a fake heal is --- > ALWAYS < --- a detriment to his group. Even in normal FG1, he lowers the group's DPS.
The rest is just justification for toxic and selfish behaviours.
In premade, do as you will. 3/4DDs, all you want. You'll be less efficient, but if you all agree, all is fine.
If you party find your way as a fake tank/heal, you are not an hero .. you are an hurdle.
3dps and 1 tank always best for vet dlcs. mag dps slot regen and thats more than enough. Mechanics are mostly avoiding oneshots and standing outside of red circles. Even better, a tank can equip something like bogdans and help with the group heals. Fake tanks are problems for vet dlcs and some reg vet dungeons
A dps rotating one heal in between damage does not lower the group dps more than having a dedicated healer.
Mag dps slot regen? As in the "regeneration" restauration staff's skill?
On main bar, no less, since backbar should have wall of element ..
Yes, indeed, that will not susbstract any DPS at all .. -_-
Why not adding the RoPO slotted, as well? Since we're butchering out output?
Seriously, it's an incredibely bold statament, you're making there. Doesn't make any sense to me.
If the 3rd DPS does as much DPS as an heal because he's messed up, I'll take an actual heal and increase the 2 others DD's damage output, thanks ..
Edited by preevious on March 15, 2021 4:05PM1 -
Arbit✭✭✭✭To me it’s not even about whether the dungeon is more efficient or not whether you have 3 or 4 dps. It’s just not fun when you’re dying cause you have no real tank cause someone was selfish enough to cut queue. I cleared tempest island on vet with a fake tank yesterday. Didn’t mean I liked it, but it’s not impossible. I don’t enjoy dungeons where people cut the queue, and think the rest of us should suck it up cause it’s a normal or can be done. Just because it can be done, doesn’t mean it should be done. Unless you’re a premade, please don’t queue for a fake role.Edited by Arbit on March 15, 2021 4:47PMArgonian Master Race
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El_Borracho✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭TimeViewer wrote: »Yup yup, leave a dungeon because fake healer fake DPS with friend who wont kick yup good reason to make me wait 10 min
Seriously how many years before you stop doing this to us
There, fixed it for you.1 -
Magdalina✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Daemons_Bane wrote: »[snip] I disagree that this should be why.. I see it as a way to prevent people from instantly leaving, just because they don't like the dungeon that they end up in.. tanks/healers get a dungeon in less than 1 minute, but damage dealers can easily wait 30+ min.. wating half an hour, just to have tank/heal skip away.? Thats a kick in the nuts
I completely agree. This was also one of the reasons. But even after the introduction of a penalty, tanks and healers continued to immediately leave the group if they fell into an uncomfortable dungeon. The penalty not only did not solve the problem, but made the situation extremely aggravated due to the often unfair punishments. I think you know what I mean, and you too have been in situations like this.
The described problem must be solved, but not in this way. It doesn't work as it should.
I think it is doing its purpose - to a point, anyway. Yes, there still are people who'd rather wait 15 mins + queue time than do a certain dungeon/do it with a certain group. However, there also are people who actually stay and at least see if they can make it work for those 15 minutes. Yes, it does suck when you have no choice but to drop because your group simply doesn't have what it takes and won't admit it, but I feel it's the lesser evil.
OP - yea, we really do feel you, but it is what it is and I think it does more good than bad overall.Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on March 15, 2021 5:19PM0 -
DigiAngel✭✭✭✭✭
✭There should be a happy medium.....get in a dungeon...play for 5 minutes, leave and no penalty would prevent the instant leaving. Maybe even 5 minutes + a minimum of damage dealt/absorbed/healed to show actual play and not standing around. Most maddening is getting a DC and getting the penalty.
All that said...eh..10 minutes isn't eternity and Lord knows there's a lot to do in those 10 minutes.0 -
Girl_Number8✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Just play another game for 10 mind or more.
In eso maybe farm or do something else while waiting. I like dueling but whatever makes you smile0 -
Neiska✭✭✭✭Its kind of a two edged sword from how I see it.
On one hand, you have people hail the "play your way" as well as the "tanks/healers aren't needed".
Both of these might be true, from one perspective. That said however, how are new players such as myself supposed to learn and get practice in learning those roles that are difficult to fill later on, tanking and healing. Even if one player could solo a dungeon themselves, why bother with finding a group anyway?
And on the other hand, you have the needed roles later on, tanks and healers. When in this game I feel they were poorly implemented as they are truly only required in a narrow scope of the game, and in the other 90% of the game activities you are more or less playing a self imposed handicap if you solo/overland/do dailies as a tank or healer.
While I go by live and let live personally, much of the time in random groups it is not often returned, as the higher cp folks almost always just zerg rush the dungeon. But I hasten to add its not all of them by any means, but in my limited experience it has proven to be the majority. But that can certainly just be rng or bad luck. And my personal pool is by no means large enough to really qualify as a trend.
Anyway my main point is that ESO has sort of painted itself into a corner, with regards of comparing classes to one another, with no easy way out. Here are their options as I see it -
1. They can make dungeons even more difficult, making tanks and healers more required of a role in all group content.
2. Or they could remove the roles entirely, and have a more free form design where your character is more fluid and dynamic. I don't see this option really viable with the itemization as it is now, but it has happened before in other games.
3. Or they can keep reducing the difficulty on everything, to the point where "everyone" rushes it.
These come with assorted problems though.
With #1, this would make people leery of doing dungeons.
#2 would take a rather large chunk of time and resources which I doubt ESO is willing to do.
Finally #3 would end with more of what we already have, as many seem to put it, "ESO catering to causals", when to my mind, it was the elite sorts who blew through everything like paper who more or less created the problem in the first place.
If it were up to me, I would make the glass cannons far more squishy. I am truly amazed how much self sustain the "dps" classes have here, far more than one might expected in comparative MMO's. If a DD can be "tough enough" for group content, then what import does a tank have aside from raid/world boss level content?
I dont see this going over well though, as even that would harm the casual solo player, who might very well depend on their self sustain to suffice in their own gameplay.
There certainly is no easy answer to this issue. Rock and a Hard Place certainly.
As far as dungeons themselves? Well, I for one don't put up with rudeness, but that's just me. If I appear into a dungeon and people just run off spraying magic and aoe all over the place, I will simply leave. The punishment (such as it is) doesn't affect me really, as I could go do a single daily quest, or a single scry and then recue again.
I would however urge caution about the "punish the people who leave" point. True, that might make people more hesitant to leave failing groups, with that however it will lead to significant loss in people willing to cue to begin with. I certainly might not, depending on the specifics of the penalties. The "dailiy bonus" already isn't worth it to me personally to watch 1-2 other people enjoy the game, while I and another merely loot and bare witness to their epeens.
People are impatient, and fake tank/fake heal. I personally dont have issue against this, they play their way. But don't "force" people to have to put up with that behavior, and dont "punish" those that wont. People most certainly should be able to leave and find their own groups if they so desire.
Trying to "bribe" tanks/healers to cue wont work either, as that was already tried and widely exploited in another mmo.
If dungeons were actually a threat (besides bosses only), as in the trash too, people might stop faketanking and fakehealing. And if you want to stop the game revolving around damage, then stop making the game 90% about damage, its really that simple.
As for me, I certainly think the game is out of balance/sync with one another. If all roles are needed, then all roles should have the same available content for them. I think its poor game vision to make some activities require a tank and healer, but all overland/dailies/quests and so on be designed with DD in mind.
Just my two cents on it.
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RedMuse✭✭✭✭✭
✭Daemons_Bane wrote: »[snip] I disagree that this should be why.. I see it as a way to prevent people from instantly leaving, just because they don't like the dungeon that they end up in.. tanks/healers get a dungeon in less than 1 minute, but damage dealers can easily wait 30+ min.. wating half an hour, just to have tank/heal skip away.? Thats a kick in the nuts
I completely agree. This was also one of the reasons. But even after the introduction of a penalty, tanks and healers continued to immediately leave the group if they fell into an uncomfortable dungeon. The penalty not only did not solve the problem, but made the situation extremely aggravated due to the often unfair punishments. I think you know what I mean, and you too have been in situations like this.
The described problem must be solved, but not in this way. It doesn't work as it should.
Possible solution, make the leaver penalty account wide. One of the more likely reasons why it is having little effect is that people will just jump on another character and queue up. Played another MMO which had a similar problem which was greatly alleviated when the leaver penalty became account wide.0 -
Eedat✭✭✭✭✭I mean it goes both ways. A lot of people would just abandon the dungeon if they got one they didn't like, requeue, repeat. People do that already and just swap to another characterEdited by Eedat on March 15, 2021 6:40PM0
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Jerkica✭✭What sucks the most is when the dungeon queue makes you wait 5 minutes for a DPS to decline the group invite, then kicks you out of the queue, THEN makes you wait 15 minutes because you've queued too recently. (Happened to me yesterday).
If it weren't for that, I'd fully be on board with the penalty for leaving a group early. It keeps people from queuing for random Normals and leaving right away if it isn't like FG1 or some other super easy dungeon.0 -
Nogawd✭✭✭✭✭With my healer in a random normal, I prefer 3 dps.
With my tank in a random normal, I prefer 3 dps.
With my dps in a random normal, I prefer 3 other dps.
If you can't sustain or block, that's a learn to play issue. I see these players, soon as an add gets on them they start backpedaling towards the front of the dungeon. Terrified to get hit.
It's just not that serious....2
