Penetration CP2.0 question?

DinoZavr

Dear Game-makers and fellow players,

i am really confused how penetration is implemented in CP2.0
Older CP system offered 5,280 pen, now the limit is 1,400.

From my point of view, this IS a problem for the stamina players.
Definitely, not a big deal, but it is introduced with a new CP system, and i don’t quite get the reasons behind that.


Please, let me explain, using dungeon bosses/mobs as example.
To inflict 100% of damage i am to reach 18,200 pen, which is not a problem in organized groups (because of Alkosh), but this is quite an issue for solo players, PUGs, and PVPers (as heavy is now THE meta, and players normally run 21,000+ armor and this would hardly change any time soon).

with U29 pen formula became more simple, as now maces/mauls provide a flat Self_Penetration effect, instead of percentage.

Target_Effective_Armor = (Target Resistance - Target Debuffs) - Self_Penetration

Target debuffs are global (Breach, Alkosh, Crusher) affecting all players attacking the debuffed target.
Self-penetration debuffs depend on skills and gear of individual players (like: armor set bonuses (like spriggans/spinners etc..), lover mundus, sharpened trait, CP star “Piercing”, "Dismember" passive, "Hunter's Eye" racial).


Let's take Boss with 18,200 armor and apply what we can with no bindings to any class:
18,200 - 5,948 (major breach: Razor Caltrops or Night Mother's Gaze set) = 12,252
12,252 - 2,974 (minor breach: Focused Aim or Sunderflame set) = 9,278
9,278 - 1,400 (CP2.0: Piercing 40 points max) = 7,878
7,878 - 3,300 (maul with 2 SP in Heavy Weapons or 2 maces with 2 SP in Twin Blade and Blunt) = 4,578
4,578 - 3,276 (sharpened trait on golden CP160 weapon(s)) = 1,302

1302 target armor to mitigate yet.


So, how to mitigate this remaining target armor?
- Magicka players have no issues due to 939 pen per a piece of light armor, so even two pieces do the trick
- Necromancers have no issues due to Dismember passive providing with 1,500 pen
- Sorcerers also have issue barely resolved due to Crystal Weapon which is 1,000 pen
- Wood Elves got 950 pen, not requiring dodging anymore (tho it is not yet enough, but well.. okayish)
- Nightblades get 2,974 pen with Master Assassin passive when they don't have to facetank enemy (so not always a solution for soloing or PVP), Surprise attack also requires flanking.


Thus, the question still concerns stamplars, stamdens, and stamDKs, (and, to some extent, soloing or 1v1 stamblades).

As for global debuffs, these are applied depending on class:
Stamdens have Scorch for Major Breach, Stamblades have Mark Target, Necromancers (who already have issue sorted) have Unnerving Boneyard
So stamDKs and stamplars have to either use Razor Caltrops or wear NMG set (which is a good set, but, definitely, not a BiS one). OK. Caltrops then.
Minor breach without a necessity to wear some set might be provided with poisons, however, this overrides weapon enchant, or use Focused Aim when on bow backbar (stamplars have PoTL).


Universal solutions to reach that pesky pen cap:
- use Lover mundus (instead of ones directly increasing damage/crit) for approx 4,500 pen (7 divines)
- enchant maul/maces with Crusher for 1,622 pen
- use Tremorscale monster set for 2,395 pen
- use Kra'gh monster set for 1,478 pen
- wear 1 pcs of Kra’gh + mystic/trainee ring/neck (mystic is not an option for Cyrodiil now)
- use New Moon Acolyte set for 1,478 pen (cost increase, not an option for Cyro now)
- use Spriggan's Thorns set for 3,480 pen
- use Roar of Alkosh set for approx 3,000 pen (common on tanks in groups)
- use Twice-Fanged Serpent set for stacking pen
- wear 2 pieces of Light Armor (binds to crafted sets or requiring monster sets in cloth)
- do nothing and sacrifice about 1320/18200 = 7% of all damage in PVE (direct,DoTs,AoEs,Ulti) due to insufficient penetration (more in PVP)


What would YOU do?


For PVE i hesitate between using Crusher (instead of a damage enchant) or 1 pcs Kra’gh (+mystic in PVE), or doing nothing as these are three best options for me (I play PVP Nord stamDK, and PVE Orc stamplar). For Cyro i am undecided.. spriggans is a good option nowadays..

I don’t want to become bound to specific sets listed above, as different circumstances require different sets.
Changing mundus might also be OK, still abusing my 6M training dummy, but my rotation is not stable yet, so i don’t get consistent results.
Using light weight monster set is also not much logical (imho), especially for PVP, isn’t it?
I feel i am to lose some of my damage either underpenetrating, or sacrificing my offensive arsenal or resists, just because I prefer close-n-personal melee playstyle. I may be wrong.
I am not an expert player, so i am really confused. Advise needed.
Or am i missing something obvious?


Also, please, one question for our dear game-makers, if permitted:
@ZOS_GinaBruno
@ZOS_BrianWheeler

Could ZOS, please, reconsider and do some Zenimax magic to double the penetration, provided by the Piercing star to help non-necro stamina players and all stamina PVP players?


TL/DR; CP1.0 solved the penetration issue with generous 5280 pen, CP2.0 is a bit insufficient with humble 1400.
Magicka players now have no penetration issues, but 3 of 6 stamina classes got them with U29. Why.

Thank you.

VoidCommander

Unfortunately, after much testing I discovered, as many others have, that the best damage for stamina dps comes from using two precise daggers instead of hyper focusing on penetration. What it ultimately comes down to is that stamina and magicka groups will continue to be separate. A stamina dps group would need to bring along their version of the "zen dk" which in this case would be a stam sorc (with his 1000 armor debuff spammable) wearing alkosh (another 3000 armor reduction). After this, one of the tanks would obviously run tremorscale, providing 2395 armor reduction. This gets us to 6395 armor reduction, which is barely less than if everyone was running sharpened maces, but only costs one dps a 5 piece set.

In time I hope stamina dps can get more group damage buff sets similar to what magicka has been given (elemental catalyst, zen's, encratis's Behemoth). That way it might still be separated between magicka and stamina groups, but a least a stamina group might actually be viable enough for players to do it reguarly.

DinoZavr

Well..

It took me several days experimenting.
I was looking for the advise if I should attempt to reach the pen cap, and, if yes – then what were my best options?

@VoidCommander suggested me not to be obsessed, which I took as leaving things as they are. Thank you, bro!
On Twitch i asked three famous streamers who offer builds only to realize the have barely zero interest in solo PVE builds.
Also on Twitch i asked two great PVP streamers only to figure out they do not like too long questions.
And i am not that new to the game to repeat yelling: “Help me, Gina Bruno. You're my only hope!”, the outcome is clear enough

The entire change of pen in CP2.0 is (in my opinion) to force players to run with 33K armor in PVP, making them close to unkillable in Cyrodiil. With penetration from CP reduced and sets choice that restricted - armoring up becomes quite logical.


TL/DR; Done testing on 6M dummy. Got consistent results. Sad i got so little help from the entire community.
Good luck blindly copying Alcast’s builds, friends.

remosito

my stam chars were all rather depressed about this pen nerf..

Shantu

DinoZavr wrote: »

Good luck blindly copying Alcast’s builds, friends.

Well, I find it a much better use of my time to get guidance from Alcast than to take up a second job as the theory crafter every time ZOS has a big idea of how they want to upend the game.

itscompton

Whew, that's a lot of writing just to say you're mad you can't get that extra 2% damage on your stam character.

Sarannah

Impenetrable trait has me confused... it does nothing against penetration!

But penetration being changed isn't a big deal, as players now have a base 1k damage(spell/weapon). And penetration was supposed to be nerfed somewhat, so it seems in line with how ZOS envisioned it.

It makes sense to me, otherwise what is the point in players having armor, if players simply penetrate it all. In that case they could as well have removed armor and penetration, as they cancel eachother out.

DinoZavr

Oh. it is great that at least now we talk.
Thank you, community!

itscompton wrote: »

Whew, that's a lot of writing just to say you're mad you can't get that extra 2% damage on your stam character.

@itscompton, please, re-read my post. i said i am confused, also i am sad, because of community very little interest to the topic. Being mad is totally different in my country. So, please, no fake accusations.
This is not 2%. 500 pen were 1% if damage when damage was 20K DPS. Now it is higher. We talk 1320/18200 = 7% as already stated above.

In PVP things worsen. if we check UESP ESO Build Editor (https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData) Text search: pvp tank Build type: health
we discover that a big number of the builds listed are around 33K armor with about 44K health.
against 33K armor we lose 1 - 16680/33000 = 50% of damage.
or 1 - (16800+4741+3480+1478)/33000 = 1 - 26499/33000 = 20% with Lover mundus, Sriggans, and Kra'gh
(this was 1- 30379/33000 = 8% with CP1.0)
and in PVP damage you do is cut by half by design. I see the issue here, forcing the tank meta, thus making 1v1 play stalemate.

Shantu wrote: »

Well, I find it a much better use of my time to get guidance from Alcast than to take up a second job as the theory crafter every time ZOS has a big idea of how they want to upend the game.

Please, don't get me wrong: It is good to use Alcast's builds for group PVE.
In coordinated groups DPS are provided with a plenty of buffs, penetration included, so each role performs one function: damagers damage, tanks keep mobs engaged, healers heal.
In solo play you are all of three roles simultaneously and the buffs you receive are the only ones you can produce on your own. Which is way less than in 4 or 12 people group. I was wondering about solo PVE or 1v1 PVP.
So, if you farm overland & delves (where mobs have twice less resists) and do group dungeons and trials with a good groups - that is perfectly OKay. This discussion is not about Alcast builds, it is about solo builds. They differ.

Sarannah wrote: »

It makes sense to me, otherwise what is the point in players having armor, if players simply penetrate it all. In that case they could as well have removed armor and penetration, as they cancel eachother out.

This is about compromise. You may invest your CP into damage directly or into penetration. Do more damage and make it mitigated, or do less damage but make it for real.
Old system allowed 100% damage, as typical players armor was 5-Heavy (e.g. around 21K..22K armor). Now you get like 80% damage and players, together with 33K armor also have 40K health and the measure to counter that diminished.
Tanking meta leads to, basically, stalemate, when none of two foes can kill each other.


Again, thank you guys. The very fact we are concerned does matter.
Thank you.

VoidCommander

@DinoZavr

Did a bit of further research for my stamina builds. It seems that it is actually 1 nirnhoned dagger, and 1 precise dagger that you want to maximize your dps in trial groups. Some further things I discovered I think you will find useful, is that using weapon poisons are no longer useful. Instead run a flame and Poisen damage glyph on each one handed weapon. You will also likely see a small improvement from using the Thief mundus stone, unless you run Advancing Yokuda.

My statement earlier about stamina not really being accepted into trials is still mostly true. However, your odds increase if you run the Kinras set, which gives you major berserk and the rest of the group minor berserk. It is the best set to run with relequen on any stamina dps that doesn't use a channeled spammable. Bringing that buff to a trial could make the healer's jobs a bit easier, and with 100% uptime could actually increase group dps in many high-mobility situations.

DinoZavr

@VoidCommander

The situation with classes balancing is now, indeed, unequal and magicka spec now has a bigger share.
I strongly hope ZOS would make some adjustments (like they did before, when 12 necromancers were the best trial group composition, or when everyone and their moms had the thrassian stranglers equipped in trials..) We will see how this balance pendulum sways. Some CP stars might be adjusted (I hope, I also hope that Piercing star could be one of them).

The change of Shadow into Thief is based on crit changes.
Kinras looks good (had no opportunity to test it as I don’t have PTS installed).

Thank you, my friend, for the insights. They form the bigger overall picture of the classes balance.