Final thoughts on ESO 2.0, the right direction?

SeaArcanist

ESO 2.0 is different, but it's the logical route to take the game even if i personally disagree. and yes I very much dislike these changes from a personal view. I'm a pvper, and among other things. so these don't work as good for me.

that being said it is the correct way to take the game. ESO 2.0 is very catered to pve, and heck it makes pve enjoyable. more options, more cool effects. power scaling for pve is good. classes seem balanced out so even an orc can play a mage now. these are Very good changes from a pve standpoint. and after much venting. i 100% agree with Zos's final decision. idk whats with the deception by saying its good for pvp (cause it isnt, trust me) but this works wonderful for pve and the gap in champ points gives players a long term goal. which again, long time goals are pver catered. where as pvpers need to be effective ASAP to compete.

which brings me to my next point, we gotta stop the hate...

Players who dislike the changes like i do. Stop, our voices are heard. Zos cant change the game even if they wanted to at this point.

ESO 2.0 took 2 years to implement, and more testing to balance. there is no "quick fix" even if they wanted to fix it. and even if they could revert back to 1.0. or wanted to. do you honestly think they have ESO1.0 as a back up? NOPE, it; deleted. gone. if they suddenly were even like "oh no! we need ESO 1.0 back! They would have to mimic how 1.0 use to be, and rebuild it from the ground up.

1.0 is gone 2.0 is here. it is impossible to overnight change all these things.

that being said. ESO 2.0 is a good direction for the games survival. Tab targeting pvp is becomming outdated, alot of eso's features are becomming outdated. the only way to compete i nthe future is to expand on it;s strengths. lore, community, etc. not pvp. pvp wil lfor sure be outdated in the years to come, heck its outdated now. and yeah thats a kick i nthe face to me. i llived for eso's pvp, its my favorite feature. especially cyrodiil.

so there ya have it!

Shantu

I'm not jumping for joy or anything, but I can live with the changes. However, the green tree is an unmitigated, micromanagement mess. I do hope they rethink this part at some point.

Neiska

I have a different opinion. I disagree that the philosophy of -

-Removing/taking something away from someone they had before, in order to make them earn it/return it later to them-

is "good" game design.

And from my viewpoint, this is precisely that. The CP system has instances of such returns. I am no mathematician or theorybuilder, but I have heard mixed reports of everything - That the patch is good for pve, bad for pve. Good for pvp, bad for pvp. Good for low CP, bad for low CP. Good for high CP, bad for high CP.

I do think that everyone would agree that you can't please everyone all the time, and that not everyone is going to agree on what is good, or bad.

For me personally? I fall into the "Bad for low CP" folks. Enough to make me completely shelve my main for the time being. For various reasons, I simply have zero desire to play her in the current state of the game and community. If I can make a stronger character now, and do my own thing, and come back to my old main at a later date when I have more CP under my belt, then fine.

But I do disagree that this patch was "good", because even a cursory discussion ingame or a very brief search here on the forums there are people who disagree, and I am one of them.

I do hope ZoS is watching and paying attention, and might hopefully keep the "system" they made, but make some fine tuning and tweaks to it. Because for me and my circle of friends and guildies, the general overall feeling is its "Bad for most, good for some." I have not heard ZoS comment on anything said however, which I do find worrying. Are they usually silent on events like this? I am not expecting a personalized reply by any means, but even a simple "We see you" might bring some comfort to those unhappy with the current state.

Anything would be better than Silence. Silence only sends the message "You don't matter."

Best wishes.

SeaArcanist

Neiska wrote: »

I have a different opinion. I disagree that the philosophy of -

-Removing/taking something away from someone they had before, in order to make them earn it/return it later to them-

is "good" game design.

And from my viewpoint, this is precisely that. The CP system has instances of such returns. I am no mathematician or theorybuilder, but I have heard mixed reports of everything - That the patch is good for pve, bad for pve. Good for pvp, bad for pvp. Good for low CP, bad for low CP. Good for high CP, bad for high CP.

I do think that everyone would agree that you can't please everyone all the time, and that not everyone is going to agree on what is good, or bad.

For me personally? I fall into the "Bad for low CP" folks. Enough to make me completely shelve my main for the time being. For various reasons, I simply have zero desire to play her in the current state of the game and community. If I can make a stronger character now, and do my own thing, and come back to my old main at a later date when I have more CP under my belt, then fine.

But I do disagree that this patch was "good", because even a cursory discussion ingame or a very brief search here on the forums there are people who disagree, and I am one of them.

I do hope ZoS is watching and paying attention, and might hopefully keep the "system" they made, but make some fine tuning and tweaks to it. Because for me and my circle of friends and guildies, the general overall feeling is its "Bad for most, good for some." I have not heard ZoS comment on anything said however, which I do find worrying. Are they usually silent on events like this? I am not expecting a personalized reply by any means, but even a simple "We see you" might bring some comfort to those unhappy with the current state.

Anything would be better than Silence. Silence only sends the message "You don't matter."

Best wishes.

I did some calculations of my own, and i can agree with ya. the CP advantage is very much true. to be effective in PVP, to flush out your character like you did in champ 1.0. you'd need 1,100-1,200 to get the slottables.. but then another 1,200 just ot max out all those bonus perks under warfare. the fact champ points alternate doesnt help. really u just need 800 total champ points under warfare to get ur 4 slottables and bonus passives. but since champ points still alternate.. yeah.. 2,400 champ level roughly needed to max out for pvp.

getting to 1620 is ike getting to 810. so getting to 2,400 is essentually getting 810 twice. meaning its twice as hard to max out for pvp as it was in 1.0.

danthemann5

Having your character become less powerful as the game progresses is pretty dumb.

That's exactly what happened from Sunday to Monday.

SeaArcanist

Shantu wrote: »

I'm not jumping for joy or anything, but I can live with the changes. However, the green tree is an unmitigated, micromanagement mess. I do hope they rethink this part at some point.

ikr? and they clearly put the trait every1 wants right at the top.. so yo ucant even access it until you;re i nthe 2000's.

dirty move imo.

SeaArcanist

"play how ya want"-false. cause ull spend 90% of the time playing how you DONT WANT. just to unlock the way you want to play at the end.. but you already completed all of the games content by then... so u cant play no more XD..

Vanya

Note please I have "only" 226 CP and I do feel let us weakaned,underpowered prior latest update indeed but that shan't stop me, I actually now probably wont be able to blaze through Dungeon,Arena or World boss/group of enemies as before. I am not an expert nor I have superior gear,massive amount of Champion points to invest,however USING EXACT build,skill-line,staff and tactics I did before i have noticed far slower DPS parse as before, It basically takes longer for me to kill anything. World boss in Deshaan took ages to take down, but World bosses have loads of Health Points anyway.

Actually a good thing,may finally force more players to group up. I approve new system, Its not ground-breaking for me if my character or class is less powerful than before.

Pink_Pixie

I'll go as far to say, it's a good idea but badly implemented. It's step in the right direction, yet two steps back due to adding much much more grinding. The ideal of improvements are to improve, not make it worse which, let's face it, it's not an improvement it's a sidestep.

VaranisArano

Why should we stop criticizing the parts of the CP 2.0 system we don't like?

This CP 2.0 isn't finished. ZOS explicitly intends to add more slottable stars and expand our options to cover more gameplay activities. Therefore, many of the criticisms about the slottable-swapping micromanagement minigame or the difference between passives/actives is extremely on point and indeed its necessary for us to provide continued feedback!

Sure, ZOS isn't going to roll back the whole system.

But please, telling players wbo dislike aspects of the system to "Stop, our voices are heard" isn't actually helpful when we know they intend to continue to develop the CP 2.0 system in certain ways. Our feedback is arguably more important than ever.


Oh, and brace yourself for another wave of complaints when this hits Consoles. No offense, but telling players to stop complaining about their pain points has never been helpful whether it's dead horse topics like Auction Houses or PVE-only Imperial City. People are going to vent. That's one of the things the forums are here for. If you don't care to read that feedback, you don't have to.

Starlight_Whisper

Yes but needs work still

SeaArcanist

Pink_Pixie wrote: »

I'll go as far to say, it's a good idea but badly implemented. It's step in the right direction, yet two steps back due to adding much much more grinding. The ideal of improvements are to improve, not make it worse which, let's face it, it's not an improvement it's a sidestep.

what defines an improvement, ease of use? cutting out steps, trimming fat. etc. to make the game easier, implies to make it less challenging or shorter, which does not imply an improvement by game standards. to make easier is not always a good thing. less grinding too is arguably a bad thing, as as more grinding. but more grinding is the optimal choice. how mad would ya be if the level stayed the same, but was twice as easy to get? some would call that an improvement. others would be pissed.

SeaArcanist

it's a touchy subject, very opinionated. because text book definition of "improve" does not apply to an mmo.

SeaArcanist

VaranisArano wrote: »

Why should we stop criticizing the parts of the CP 2.0 system we don't like?

This CP 2.0 isn't finished. ZOS explicitly intends to add more slottable stars and expand our options to cover more gameplay activities. Therefore, many of the criticisms about the slottable-swapping micromanagement minigame or the difference between passives/actives is extremely on point and indeed its necessary for us to provide continued feedback!

Sure, ZOS isn't going to roll back the whole system.

But please, telling players wbo dislike aspects of the system to "Stop, our voices are heard" isn't actually helpful when we know they intend to continue to develop the CP 2.0 system in certain ways. Our feedback is arguably more important than ever.


Oh, and brace yourself for another wave of complaints when this hits Consoles. No offense, but telling players to stop complaining about their pain points has never been helpful whether it's dead horse topics like Auction Houses or PVE-only Imperial City. People are going to vent. That's one of the things the forums are here for. If you don't care to read that feedback, you don't have to.

no offence, butthe same voices complaining now are the same voices complaining when the systme was introduced. but not implimented and they still went through with the changes, regardless of how much we said "n owe dont like it". so to be blunt, obviously those voices did not matter. so why will they still matter now? ZOS seems to preach that they take community imput, but in reality they are self centered and maybe take the opinion from 1 guy wit hthe most youtube views, as opposed to the individual.

so no, and it sucks, but your words don;t matter.

Pink_Pixie

SeaArcanist wrote: »

Pink_Pixie wrote: »

I'll go as far to say, it's a good idea but badly implemented. It's step in the right direction, yet two steps back due to adding much much more grinding. The ideal of improvements are to improve, not make it worse which, let's face it, it's not an improvement it's a sidestep.

what defines an improvement, ease of use? cutting out steps, trimming fat. etc. to make the game easier, implies to make it less challenging or shorter, which does not imply an improvement by game standards. to make easier is not always a good thing. less grinding too is arguably a bad thing, as as more grinding. but more grinding is the optimal choice. how mad would ya be if the level stayed the same, but was twice as easy to get? some would call that an improvement. others would be pissed.

More grinding isn't a good thing when your choices of grinding are limited to a few things, zombies, random dungeons and random battle grounds. Many people forget that some players, play one character they can't go back and redo the quests they have already completed.

A true improvement would be to improve the old CP system without being detrimental to a good portion of the player base, in this case veterans.

Agenericname

VaranisArano wrote: »

Why should we stop criticizing the parts of the CP 2.0 system we don't like?

This CP 2.0 isn't finished. ZOS explicitly intends to add more slottable stars and expand our options to cover more gameplay activities. Therefore, many of the criticisms about the slottable-swapping micromanagement minigame or the difference between passives/actives is extremely on point and indeed its necessary for us to provide continued feedback!

Sure, ZOS isn't going to roll back the whole system.

But please, telling players wbo dislike aspects of the system to "Stop, our voices are heard" isn't actually helpful when we know they intend to continue to develop the CP 2.0 system in certain ways. Our feedback is arguably more important than ever.


Oh, and brace yourself for another wave of complaints when this hits Consoles. No offense, but telling players to stop complaining about their pain points has never been helpful whether it's dead horse topics like Auction Houses or PVE-only Imperial City. People are going to vent. That's one of the things the forums are here for. If you don't care to read that feedback, you don't have to.

Hate technically is a form of feedback, though I would argue that isn't always the most effective. Furthermore, it can easily drown out the voices of reason.

DigiAngel

Nope...not the right direction. When I finish the freshly purchased MorrowWind that will pretty much be it for me. Might join events...do the cheap daily for TC's, but not going to sink much more time or money into ESO at this point.

SeaArcanist

Pink_Pixie wrote: »

SeaArcanist wrote: »

Pink_Pixie wrote: »

I'll go as far to say, it's a good idea but badly implemented. It's step in the right direction, yet two steps back due to adding much much more grinding. The ideal of improvements are to improve, not make it worse which, let's face it, it's not an improvement it's a sidestep.

what defines an improvement, ease of use? cutting out steps, trimming fat. etc. to make the game easier, implies to make it less challenging or shorter, which does not imply an improvement by game standards. to make easier is not always a good thing. less grinding too is arguably a bad thing, as as more grinding. but more grinding is the optimal choice. how mad would ya be if the level stayed the same, but was twice as easy to get? some would call that an improvement. others would be pissed.

More grinding isn't a good thing when your choices of grinding are limited to a few things, zombies, random dungeons and random battle grounds. Many people forget that some players, play one character they can't go back and redo the quests they have already completed.

A true improvement would be to improve the old CP system without being detrimental to a good portion of the player base, in this case veterans.

i agree, but sadly thats impossible now. i dont know why zos thought they needed to increase the level cap. we didnt get to the max level because of content. but rather 50%+ was from repetition, dailys, or flat out souless grinding. truly a cp raise was not needed. players can go from start to finish in eso's story, do every dungeon/trial once. and still not be 810.

SeaArcanist

some players make the argument "level cap is raise i nevery mmo, like wow with each update!"

and thats true.. but.. wow doesnt go from 810 levels to 3,600 levels. XD wow doesnt effectivly add on 400% more levels. just like 12.5% to 8% at a time.

Jacozilla

It's hardly ESO 2.0, as in the ver number is hardly accurate to call it 2.0. With so many massive balance changes since launch, the old joke of big new balance change every ~6months, while not entirely accurate chronologically, is sentimentally correct.

Can't even call this CP 2.0 either - we already had that. When CP was first launched it was per char and concurrent with the VR (veteran rank) system. CP 2.0 was changing the per char individual CP totals to combined per account total.

Then we had the big diminishing returns change implemented, let's call that CP 3.0. Then we had the allocation changed yet again with CP 4.0 to benefit newer, lower CP players by making much more of the CP buff pre-loaded up front with first few points.

By rough count, and could be missing another substantial CP update we had, but this latest scheme is merely CP 5.0 in the ESO 14.0

SeaArcanist

giving avalability to the peak champion levels from start is a mistake. starting at 1,200, then adding 30-50/month would be the appropriate choice. it garentees balance and a leveled playing field for accurate feedback. and allowing players t oadappt slowly instead of "oh i gotta grind all these levels or ill be behind!" vibe

Sahidom

The 2.0 system does have me recalibration all my characters. Reviewing item sets, nee armor passives and how the new CP system deeply effects all my character. I'm never liked any big changes that force me to redo characters; the green tree needs some efficiency review but I find the red and blue trees reasonable on balance between damage, mitigation and heals. I took heavy losses on offensive penetration and what type of damage will my DPS focus more on vs. the blanketing CP perks 1.0 offered; but I don't feel my overall damage suffered too greatly: the loss didn't invalidate most of my character builds. The critical strike loss hurt, and I strongly question whether the critical damage stars are worth the slot, and stay will item and skill buffs for critical damage. I would say 2.0 is very different, and its still early for me to join the "I hate it crowd."

amm7sb14_ESO

It's way too early for a final thought, it came out 2 days ago, and unless you are CP3600, there's no way you are able to full capitalize on the new CP trees.

That said, I have my after-2-days thoughts.

I like the CP system. I may even like it better than the old CP system, as I was getting to a point where all my characters were getting the same CP distribution. I can see some areas for creativity and individualization, particularly in the red tree, and especially in the blue tree.

I don't like the gating. I know "that's been a part of games forever", but it doesn't mean it's *good* design. Particularly when certain perks are gated behind others that have nothing to do with them. And considering that you don't just get 1 CP and put it into a perk to unlock it anymore, and perks now require anywhere from 10 - 75 points to unlock, there is no need what-so-ever for a CP point sink. Perks that require 50 - 75 points to unlock means that you need to level up 150 - 225 CP's *just to unlock a perk*. That reeks of artificially stretching out the CP points to manufacture the appearance of content, but really, it's just artificial inflation.

I'm not speaking about "having XP deleted" or anything like that. I was 799 before the update, I don't need to magically be turned into level 1003 or whatever the equivalent is. But the artificial stretching out and point sink behind gated perks is poor design.

I am also not a fan of the arbitrary armor bonuses and penalties. Medium armor gets a bonus to block??? Heavy armor gets a penalty to magic damage??? AND a penalty to roll dodging, in a game where the mechanics require tanks to be able to roll dodge lest they take a 1 shot kill blow? That's bad design to penalize tanks for wearing the armor they need to tank and making it harder for them to do their job, and giving bonuses to an armor set that shouldn't be doing the thing it gets the bonus for in the first place.

I do really like the new dungeons, at least The Cauldron. I haven't done Black Drake Villa yet, tho I am planning a guild run with it tonight. I think The Cauldron is very good dungeon design with mechanics that are fun and challenging, but not overly silly and ridiculous. I am a big fan of The Cauldron. It might immediately be one of my favorite dungeons in the game. I'm also interested in a couple of the sets out of there, notably Ritualist, Foolkiller, and the monster set. I'm looking forward to trying out Black Drake Villa tonight.

So there is good and bad with it. I've heard some people say they see this as the worst update in the history of all MMO's. Some of you never played SWG during the CU and NGE and it shows. This is far from the worst MMO update ever. It's an update that changes a lot of things, some of them are upgrades, some of them are downgrades. It doesn't fundamentally change the game. It makes some aspects of the game easier, it makes some of them harder. I like some aspects of it, and feel it gives me more flexibility to individualize my characters in ways I couldn't before. I'm enjoying recent dungeon design of dungeons like Unhallowed Grave, Castle Thorn, and now The Cauldron. I hate some aspects of it, and feel that it is needlessly making things take longer for me to do, or harder to do, and not in a "more challenging" type of way, but in a "needlessly tedious for the sake of grind because MMO" type of way.

VaranisArano

Agenericname wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Why should we stop criticizing the parts of the CP 2.0 system we don't like?

This CP 2.0 isn't finished. ZOS explicitly intends to add more slottable stars and expand our options to cover more gameplay activities. Therefore, many of the criticisms about the slottable-swapping micromanagement minigame or the difference between passives/actives is extremely on point and indeed its necessary for us to provide continued feedback!

Sure, ZOS isn't going to roll back the whole system.

But please, telling players wbo dislike aspects of the system to "Stop, our voices are heard" isn't actually helpful when we know they intend to continue to develop the CP 2.0 system in certain ways. Our feedback is arguably more important than ever.


Oh, and brace yourself for another wave of complaints when this hits Consoles. No offense, but telling players to stop complaining about their pain points has never been helpful whether it's dead horse topics like Auction Houses or PVE-only Imperial City. People are going to vent. That's one of the things the forums are here for. If you don't care to read that feedback, you don't have to.

Hate technically is a form of feedback, though I would argue that isn't always the most effective. Furthermore, it can easily drown out the voices of reason.

Then be the voice of reason. Not all critique is hate.

There's been numerous changes that have happened because of community outcry and many that didn't. There's been many changes that happened because dedicated players continued to offer reasoned critiques and suggestions over time and many that haven't yet happened and might never happen.

The only way to find out if the change you want is something Devs would be willing to change, tweak, implement, or revamp is to make your voice heard and advocate (hopefully politely and logically) for your position.

Luke_Flamesword

I love new system, except maybe micromanagment in crafting tree (this I really hate). I'm 1036 CP and I'm happy that further leveling have some purpose and I don't feel weaker, maybe a bit even stronger with better sustain. I think that sometimes making new, better system from scratch forces some unpopular decisions and changes, but in longer perspective we all benefit from it. Old system was boring, with new one there's more fun. Now I can even have some fun with hybrid build for overland without changing attributes. I have really fun my stamina dk, which with minimal effort changes to hybrid in overland. With base stats buff there is much more run for fun builds, which can be used to gain XP with joy, not boring grind.

Most of people have problem (not only in game, but in real life) that they focus too much on target and not enough on road to target. Maybe you don't know but main purpose of MMOs is not to beat a game and forget about it, but having long term entertainment. So I'm glad that this next levels will matter for years, because after 810 CP there was a lack of purpose in further leveling.

Oh, and I had a lot of fun from newest dungeons on veteran difficulty (one member was 1200 CP, rest was 600-800), so I really believe that I don't need grind to 1800 CP or higher to enjoy game content

Vlad9425

Step in the right direction yes, but very poorly implemented.

SeaArcanist

Vlad9425 wrote: »

Step in the right direction yes, but very poorly implemented.

i agree, i hate alot of it. i even uninstalled the game myself.. im here for idk what reasons other than to help me cope and others cope? XD..

SeaArcanist

then again we are asking alot. this is the company who made the champ system to fix the veterna level system!.. then they fixed the champ system again! thinking they solved the issue.. then again... and now.. revampepd it again.. to this.

SeaArcanist

mmo's are a never ending job

gatekeeper13

My Orc stamplar did 90k dps Sunday Night. Did 68k on Monday evening with same sets, had to invest around 100k to make him reach 76k dps. Has worse sustain than before and is also more fragile. I am scared to see how my secondary DDs will perform, especially my magcro.

I dont see how C.P 2.0 moved the game to the right direction.

Scardan

What I do like the most in new system, is that Stars are universal, for stam and mag now. A big piece of boring micromanagement disappeared. I did respecd my magcro into stamcro (my love to Defiler set is indescribable, also Snipe feels so nice and smooth now, just wow) and I had nothing to do in Warfare tree.