How much health for DDs with CP2.0

Septimus_Magna

Ive noticed that my magsorc has become a lot squishier, even though I have 21k health with Gastly Eye Bowl buff food.
Yesterday I was farming normal Arx for the Medusa fire staff and noticed that physical hits of Lurchers took roughly 40-50% of my health away.
Before with CP1.0 I barely noticed getting hit with Crit Surge healing me constantly.

Compared to CP1.0 I am missing:

• Ironclad: 20% reduced direct damage with 56 points.
• Elemental Defender: 12% reduced elemental damage with 56 points.
• Hardy: 12% reduced physical damage with 56 points.
• Thick Skinned: 18% reduced dot damage with 48 points.
• Spell Shield: 4162 spell resistance with 54 points

Has anyone done the math on how much health we should have now to have roughly the same survivability as magicka DD in CP1.0 with 16k health for example?

Mindcr0w

I don't claim to have any math to back anything up, but my gut tells me simply using the same hp+primary resource food you were likely using most of the time under cp 1.0 is what you want to continue using.

I'm not sure why this whole "run around using parse food since hp increased" idea took hold so strongly, but clearly people weren't taking into account the damage mitigation nerfs that came along with the hp buffs.

Bodycounter

Do you have champion points invested into Warfare --> Staving Death?

Have you tried the CP "Strategic Reserve"? Sounds pretty powerful too, but i did not test it so far.

Septimus_Magna

Mindcr0w wrote: »

I don't claim to have any math to back anything up, but my gut tells me simply using the same hp+primary resource food you were likely using most of the time under cp 1.0 is what you want to continue using.

I'm not sure why this whole "run around using parse food since hp increased" idea took hold so strongly, but clearly people weren't taking into account the damage mitigation nerfs that came along with the hp buffs.

Ive tried that too but it feels weird running around with 26k health as DD.
If that much health is needed we are missing something like 40% mititgation and I dont think the changes are that extreme.
And if I dont need that much health I'd rather have more max magicka and magicka regen.

Septimus_Magna

Bodycounter wrote: »

Do you have champion points invested into Warfare --> Staving Death?

Have you tried the CP "Strategic Reserve"? Sounds pretty powerful too, but i did not test it so far.

In the red tree I am running Boundless Vitality, Ironclad, Rejuvenation and Siphoning Spells.
On my magsorc I only store 170 ult so Strategic Reserve is probably not that useful.

Its not that I constantly die or something but I am trying to figure out how much health would give me the same survivablity as I had before.

Larcomar

I came here to ask this too. Ive been wondering, even as Ive been adding mag / stam enchants back on to sets to replace health enchants. Like others, my eyes slightly popped out at 26k health on a dps.

I saw this post in gen https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/564732/huge-nerf-to-max-resource#latest and people seemed to be thinking anywhere from 20-22k up to 25k.

I always thought the old rule was 17k for dps (or 16k with ebon active i guess). I'm guessing we've gone from something like 30% extra mitigation down to 10%? - Is that right? That would suggest 20-22k is about the right ball park

From what i can see, even after switching enchants out, most toons seem to be in that range with their enchants swapped out but using their old food (not parse food). But wondering if I should add a bit of health back in. Is there any consensus emerging yet on a new rough rule of thumb?

phantasmalD

Back during the PTS I did do some rudimentary testing

phantasmalD wrote: »

Exact same gear, 5-1-1 light armor, all gold, same skills, spent all my live CP (1220),
My live CP might not be optimized but I tried to go for a reasonable healer build on PTS, prioritizing healer stars until 4 actives, spending only leftover CP on defence.

Test entity - regular crocodile near Twin Arches
On live (810CP) : light attack - 882, tail swipe - 1647
On PTS (1200CP - healer build) : light attack - 1134 , tail swipe - 2118 [~30% increase]
On PTS (max CP - all passives) : light attack - 1057 , tail swipe - 1973 [~20%]

Bonus: with tank passives
On PTS (1200 CP - tank build ) : light attack - 952, tail swipe - 1776 [~8%]

So 16*1.3 = 21k seems to be the new 16k.

Larcomar

Thanks that's handy.

Just out of interest, Ive always worked on 17k. Is 16 assuming ebon, or have been over healthy all this time.... ?

Vermintide

Damn kids. Back in my day you wanted 20k health to survive at least a one-shot.

I'm at 22k with Witchmother and class passives, and I figured if I already have to put at least 10 points into the extra health CP star I may as well make it a full thousand.

My bigger concern is that the red tree doesn't offer much outside of health or shield stacking, for a character without the space to slot a shield. The cost reduction on dodge/block is nice I guess but it doesn't add anything- If I was able to survive without it before on 10k stam and zero bonuses, I haven't gained anything from that.

Septimus_Magna

phantasmalD wrote: »

Back during the PTS I did do some rudimentary testing

phantasmalD wrote: »

Exact same gear, 5-1-1 light armor, all gold, same skills, spent all my live CP (1220),
My live CP might not be optimized but I tried to go for a reasonable healer build on PTS, prioritizing healer stars until 4 actives, spending only leftover CP on defence.

Test entity - regular crocodile near Twin Arches
On live (810CP) : light attack - 882, tail swipe - 1647
On PTS (1200CP - healer build) : light attack - 1134 , tail swipe - 2118 [~30% increase]
On PTS (max CP - all passives) : light attack - 1057 , tail swipe - 1973 [~20%]

Bonus: with tank passives
On PTS (1200 CP - tank build ) : light attack - 952, tail swipe - 1776 [~8%]

So 16*1.3 = 21k seems to be the new 16k.

Thanks, thats very helpful. Like most magicka builds Im probably switching to 7 light so 21k health would be on the low end.

At least this gives some indication how to compare health values between updates.

katorga

One slight problem, damage reduction scales with an unlimited number of attacks, increased health does not. It is very noticeable when soloing.

Damage reduction also increased the performance of damage shields, so those are indirectly nerfed as well, making something like Iceheart or Brawler shield much less effective.

the1andonlyskwex

katorga wrote: »

One slight problem, damage reduction scales with an unlimited number of attacks, increased health does not. It is very noticeable when soloing.

Damage reduction also increased the performance of damage shields, so those are indirectly nerfed as well, making something like Iceheart or Brawler shield much less effective.

Healers are going to have to do more actual healing, and solo players will have to strike a different balance between damage and durability.

I look forward to being more necessary as a healer, and don't really have an opinion on the solo side.

Starlight_Whisper

Bodycounter wrote: »

Do you have champion points invested into Warfare --> Staving Death?

Have you tried the CP "Strategic Reserve"? Sounds pretty powerful too, but i did not test it so far.

First thing I did along with that 5k shield that refreshes every 10 secs

Starlight_Whisper

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

One slight problem, damage reduction scales with an unlimited number of attacks, increased health does not. It is very noticeable when soloing.

Damage reduction also increased the performance of damage shields, so those are indirectly nerfed as well, making something like Iceheart or Brawler shield much less effective.

Healers are going to have to do more actual healing, and solo players will have to strike a different balance between damage and durability.

I look forward to being more necessary as a healer, and don't really have an opinion on the solo side.

I hope so

Starlight_Whisper

Larcomar wrote: »

I came here to ask this too. Ive been wondering, even as Ive been adding mag / stam enchants back on to sets to replace health enchants. Like others, my eyes slightly popped out at 26k health on a dps.

I saw this post in gen https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/564732/huge-nerf-to-max-resource#latest and people seemed to be thinking anywhere from 20-22k up to 25k.

I always thought the old rule was 17k for dps (or 16k with ebon active i guess). I'm guessing we've gone from something like 30% extra mitigation down to 10%? - Is that right? That would suggest 20-22k is about the right ball park

From what i can see, even after switching enchants out, most toons seem to be in that range with their enchants swapped out but using their old food (not parse food). But wondering if I should add a bit of health back in. Is there any consensus emerging yet on a new rough rule of thumb?

Actually 15 base migration plus another 8 from cp.

etchedpixels

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

If that much health is needed we are missing something like 40% mititgation and I dont think the changes are that extreme.
And if I dont need that much health I'd rather have more max magicka and magicka regen.

There seem to be two things that feed into this

1. The over-nerf of sustain means you end up with infused regeneration jewellery
2. The over-nerf of sustain means you end up with sustain not just stat food

Even so I've cut the health points to 0 on my EU (CP 750+) DD characters with no ill effect so far. Far better to have the resistances than the health. Without CP applied though if you play with a low level the game actually feels much nicer and I get the impression it'll be a fair bit more newbie friendly this way.

Scardan

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

One slight problem, damage reduction scales with an unlimited number of attacks, increased health does not. It is very noticeable when soloing.

Damage reduction also increased the performance of damage shields, so those are indirectly nerfed as well, making something like Iceheart or Brawler shield much less effective.

Healers are going to have to do more actual healing, and solo players will have to strike a different balance between damage and durability.

I look forward to being more necessary as a healer, and don't really have an opinion on the solo side.

I just wait for next chapter for a companion who will heal me.

Athan1

We need more testing to be sure, but 20k seems about right, at least for magicka.

HowellQagan

Starlight_Whisper wrote: »

Larcomar wrote: »

I came here to ask this too. Ive been wondering, even as Ive been adding mag / stam enchants back on to sets to replace health enchants. Like others, my eyes slightly popped out at 26k health on a dps.

I saw this post in gen https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/564732/huge-nerf-to-max-resource#latest and people seemed to be thinking anywhere from 20-22k up to 25k.

I always thought the old rule was 17k for dps (or 16k with ebon active i guess). I'm guessing we've gone from something like 30% extra mitigation down to 10%? - Is that right? That would suggest 20-22k is about the right ball park

From what i can see, even after switching enchants out, most toons seem to be in that range with their enchants swapped out but using their old food (not parse food). But wondering if I should add a bit of health back in. Is there any consensus emerging yet on a new rough rule of thumb?

Actually 15 base migration plus another 8 from cp.

@Starlight_Whisper 10%, not 15.

Starlight_Whisper

HowellQagan wrote: »

Starlight_Whisper wrote: »

Larcomar wrote: »

I came here to ask this too. Ive been wondering, even as Ive been adding mag / stam enchants back on to sets to replace health enchants. Like others, my eyes slightly popped out at 26k health on a dps.

I saw this post in gen https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/564732/huge-nerf-to-max-resource#latest and people seemed to be thinking anywhere from 20-22k up to 25k.

I always thought the old rule was 17k for dps (or 16k with ebon active i guess). I'm guessing we've gone from something like 30% extra mitigation down to 10%? - Is that right? That would suggest 20-22k is about the right ball park

From what i can see, even after switching enchants out, most toons seem to be in that range with their enchants swapped out but using their old food (not parse food). But wondering if I should add a bit of health back in. Is there any consensus emerging yet on a new rough rule of thumb?

Actually 15 base migration plus another 8 from cp.

@Starlight_Whisper 10%, not 15.

They must of change it from pts then

kojou

I've been running 23-25 k depending on the race and class.

novemberhhh

no investment other than like 2 red cp stars and 20k hp in parse food is fine for no death vate

Luckylancer

Do not forget preperation passive, 8% midigation in PvE.

SirLeeMinion

katorga wrote: »

One slight problem, damage reduction scales with an unlimited number of attacks, increased health does not. It is very noticeable when soloing.

Damage reduction also increased the performance of damage shields, so those are indirectly nerfed as well, making something like Iceheart or Brawler shield much less effective.

It's almost as if they want us to buy their update with companions in it...

Septimus_Magna

Luckylancer wrote: »

Do not forget preperation passive, 8% midigation in PvE.

Good point, I did a short test yesterday to determine if Preparation was worth sacrificing War Mage and Flawless Ritual (1/2) CP stars. In my case I am at 1030CP (magsorc main) so its a choice between the following two situations:

1. Witchmother's Potent Brew without Preparation (extra 100 spell damage and 30% chance to applies status effect)
2. Ghastly Eye Bowl with Preparation (extra 1064 max magicka and 106 mag regen)

With Preparation I took 9.3% less damage, I expected less than 8% because percentages are usually multiplicative. I tested it with bears in Eastmarch, the damage without Preparation was 1599 and with Preparation it was 1463. This relatively increases my health from roughly 21k to 23k.

My conclusion is that the Preparation is enough to reach a decent health/resistance level without a food buff that increases health. In my case (magsorc with pets) I prefer the extra max magicka and magicka regen because it offers roughly the same damage but better sustain. I would need 1200CP to unlock War Mage and Flawless Ritual again.

munster1404

Because mitigation and damage passives are mostly in the same constellation tree now. I feel like DDs lose mitigation but Tanks gain it. It does look this way. But I man 6 x Argonian Tanks. My 2 DPS toons are crafter and inventory mule respectively.

Septimus_Magna

munster1404 wrote: »

Because mitigation and damage passives are mostly in the same constellation tree now. I feel like DDs lose mitigation but Tanks gain it. It does look this way. But I man 6 x Argonian Tanks. My 2 DPS toons are crafter and inventory mule respectively.

Yes, it would make more sense if blue was for damage/healing, red for resistances/health, green for sustain/crafting.