Racial Passives

tigerborn62

I realize it's been suggested many, many times before, but I would really love racial passives be removed. Devs and community can figure out where to place those passives somewhere else. Please, ZoS. I'm begging you. I can't help it. I wanna look like a kitty while I dish out devastating damage with NO concern for racial passives. Thank you.

Greystag

Racial passives are nowhere near holding you back from dealing "devastating damage".
Khajiit are also one of the better DD races AFAIK.

barney2525

what am I missing?

You..... Can .... look like a kitty and deal out devastating damage ... in part ... Because of their racial passive that increases critical damage - Both weapon And spell.

And it's not like you have this huge 'choice' to either pick damage or something else, but can't have both. I have a main who is also a Crafter, and He still has 57 unspent skill points.

so I don't understand why you would want your kitty to do Less devastating damage.

lihentian

agree, i hate bosmer 10% fall damage.. i have no idea why i want this? i mean from height i will die regardless. it i not like 10% make much difference.

Benzux

Seeing the same topics pop up on these forums every damn week with exactly the same wording each time (and with exactly the same responses every time) doesn't help my dying temporal awareness at all - it makes the days blend in even more.

You can still 100% dish out "devastating damage" while looking like a kitty. Racial passives amount to very little actual DPS when you take build and player skill into consideration. The small amount of DPS increase you gain from that 1k extra Magicka/Stamina/whatever from your race only matters if you're pushing for high scores at top-end PvE. Most of my characters are Argonians, and most of them DPS, and I can quite easily reach high enough DPS on all of them to get through veteran content comfortably. If you want to achieve high DPS numbers with a Khajiit, then find a build and setup that allows that, and practice it. The Khajiit gain racial bonuses to Crit, so make a build around that strength.

Besides, racial passives are something that is a part of TES Lore: the races of Nirn are all inherently different from each other and suited for different things due to their varying natural aptitudes regarding said things.

Ratzkifal

Something that has gone overlooked for a long time is how the new 1000 weapon and spell damage affect different racial passives differently. Khajiit are now top tier damage dealers because the base weapon and spell damage increases the base damage value of skills drastically which makes the 10% crit damage increase larger than it was, so much so that it even compensates for the nerf to crit chance!
Argonians have a similar situation where their 6% bonus to healing done used to be very weak but is now stronger than the healing bonus Altmer get from their 258 spell damage.

I don't want racial passives to be removed. I just want them to be fixed so they are actually representative of how these races have been described within the lore and previous games. Bosmer without stealth are just not Bosmer anymore.

Lysette

Yeah, racial passives need a little work - but without them it would not be Elder Scrolls - in the past we had even differences between female and male versions of the races. I understand why they didn't follow up on this, even they started developing ESO after TES Oblivion, which still had these differences between male and female characters. But in Oblivion these additional choices by gender differences made all races suitable to all play styles, you just had to choose the right gender.

Khajiit is still one of the better choices when it comes to damage IMO - better than in the past, where khajiit had to rely on their stealth a whole lot more. I play 2 Khajiits as well, I just think they look terrible in comparison to TES Skyrim for example. Bosmer are still strong as well, but they are not the sneaky archers like they were in the past anymore. Argonians need a buff urgently - they are underwhelming and not like the lore presented them. They are as well much smarter than the game presents them - female argonian made good mages in the past, while being immune to a lot of nasty things.

Cundu_Ertur

Lysette wrote: »

Bosmer are still strong as well, but they are not the sneaky archers like they were in the past anymore.

You realize you just effectively said: "Bosmer are still strong as well, but they are not Bosmer like they were in the past anymore,' right? Bosmer ARE sneaky, Bosmer ARE archers. Those are their two defining traits. Without that, they are Bosmer shaped nothings.

Lysette

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Bosmer are still strong as well, but they are not the sneaky archers like they were in the past anymore.

You realize you just effectively said: "Bosmer are still strong as well, but they are not Bosmer like they were in the past anymore,' right? Bosmer ARE sneaky, Bosmer ARE archers. Those are their two defining traits. Without that, they are Bosmer shaped nothings.

Bosmer are the best archers and their stealth is described as chameleon-like, Redguards are described as the most talented warriors, Altmer as those best suited to become mages, Khajiit aren't likely to be matched in their ability to acquire and market all kind of stuff and you don't mess with them, because their natural claw attacks are feared and they can dishearten you with fear, Bretons are hard to fool with magic and their affinity to conjuration is making them good summoner.

There is quite a lot of lore, when it comes to races, which is not reflected in ESO - and you are right, how can a race described as the best archers with chameleon-like stealth (see Oblivion wiki) not have stealth and archery boni?

btw. Orcs are pretty with awesome tusks, how can you deny that - I guess you just envy their natural beauty and athletic body.

BlueRaven

Lysette wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Bosmer are still strong as well, but they are not the sneaky archers like they were in the past anymore.

You realize you just effectively said: "Bosmer are still strong as well, but they are not Bosmer like they were in the past anymore,' right? Bosmer ARE sneaky, Bosmer ARE archers. Those are their two defining traits. Without that, they are Bosmer shaped nothings.

Bosmer are the best archers and their stealth is described as chameleon-like, Redguards are described as the most talented warriors, Altmer as those best suited to become mages, Khajiit aren't likely to be matched in their ability to acquire and market all kind of stuff and you don't mess with them, because their natural claw attacks are feared and they can dishearten you with fear, Bretons are hard to fool with magic and their affinity to conjuration is making them good summoner.

There is quite a lot of lore, when it comes to races, which is not reflected in ESO - and you are right, how can a race described as the best archers with chameleon-like stealth (see Oblivion wiki) not have stealth and archery boni?

I thought Bosmers bow bousxtas they learn bows faster. 🙄 Big deal.

Anyway, most if not all of the racial passive bear little resemblance to the single player game lore.

Nagastani

Far as I know racial passives are a part of every Elder Scrolls game. Comes with the territory I think they say.

With that said I'm concerned that they've handed out too much w/s dmg buffs. I have no problem with the buff itself it just seems like it's being passed around more than at it should.

Lysette

BlueRaven wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Bosmer are still strong as well, but they are not the sneaky archers like they were in the past anymore.

You realize you just effectively said: "Bosmer are still strong as well, but they are not Bosmer like they were in the past anymore,' right? Bosmer ARE sneaky, Bosmer ARE archers. Those are their two defining traits. Without that, they are Bosmer shaped nothings.

Bosmer are the best archers and their stealth is described as chameleon-like, Redguards are described as the most talented warriors, Altmer as those best suited to become mages, Khajiit aren't likely to be matched in their ability to acquire and market all kind of stuff and you don't mess with them, because their natural claw attacks are feared and they can dishearten you with fear, Bretons are hard to fool with magic and their affinity to conjuration is making them good summoner.

There is quite a lot of lore, when it comes to races, which is not reflected in ESO - and you are right, how can a race described as the best archers with chameleon-like stealth (see Oblivion wiki) not have stealth and archery boni?

I thought Bosmers bow bousxtas they learn bows faster. 🙄 Big deal.

Anyway, most if not all of the racial passive bear little resemblance to the single player game lore.

To learn it faster is not providing them with better archery - once learned nothing really makes them best archers.

Nagastani

tigerborn62 wrote: »

I realize it's been suggested many, many times before, but I would really love racial passives be removed. Devs and community can figure out where to place those passives somewhere else. Please, ZoS. I'm begging you. I can't help it. I wanna look like a kitty while I dish out devastating damage with NO concern for racial passives. Thank you.

And how are you dishing out devastating damage with the absence of proc sets? Doesn't seem possible really. If everyone is stuck using the same thing then well... no one should be able to do devastating damage, which is tiresome, boring and very predictable.

Wolfpaw

When race change token sales start to slow to a crawl I'm sure we will see another racial update.

tigerborn62

" I wanna look like a kitty while I dish out devastating damage with NO concern for racial passives."
That's meant to be tongue in cheek. My humor is all that is. Thank you for the responses, everyone. Just wanted to get that off my chest. Have a good one.

Celephantsylvius_Bornasfinmo

They can't sell race change tokens if they give you no racial passives. It won't happen.
I've seen other subjects outside of this forum talking about racial passives for tanks with this patch and the fact that they feel as if they are now forced to change races to be effective in their role.

Prices really need to be toned down. If manipulation is in effect....this is bad.

PaddyVu

I would like to make racial passive become world passive, u can choose nord or highelf or whatever u want like a skill ( and u must follow that line so no abuse like stacking dmg )

virtus753

PaddyVu wrote: »

I would like to make racial passive become world passive, u can choose nord or highelf or whatever u want like a skill ( and u must follow that line so no abuse like stacking dmg )

That would mean they’d have to renamed, because they wouldn’t be racial bonuses anymore.

In the meantime, they’d have to go replace the racial bonuses, because those give the races gameplay identity in an MMORPG. It isn’t just about being able to chase meta more freely, because this game isn’t just an MMO. Races in the Elder Scrolls, as pointed out above, have come with racial bonuses in other games in the franchise. Taking that away means you’re pushing the game towards being an MMO at the expense of an ES RPG, whereas the devs (though they do accept this as an MMO now) clearly want to keep a lot of the RPG and ES elements. So even though they take at times a much freer hand in changing the particular bonuses, the fact there are racial bonuses is a core part of keeping the RPG and Elder Scrolls identities.

zaria

virtus753 wrote: »

PaddyVu wrote: »

I would like to make racial passive become world passive, u can choose nord or highelf or whatever u want like a skill ( and u must follow that line so no abuse like stacking dmg )

That would mean they’d have to renamed, because they wouldn’t be racial bonuses anymore.

In the meantime, they’d have to go replace the racial bonuses, because those give the races gameplay identity in an MMORPG. It isn’t just about being able to chase meta more freely, because this game isn’t just an MMO. Races in the Elder Scrolls, as pointed out above, have come with racial bonuses in other games in the franchise. Taking that away means you’re pushing the game towards being an MMO at the expense of an ES RPG, whereas the devs (though they do accept this as an MMO now) clearly want to keep a lot of the RPG and ES elements. So even though they take at times a much freer hand in changing the particular bonuses, the fact there are racial bonuses is a core part of keeping the RPG and Elder Scrolls identities.

That is correct, however unlike Morrowind or Oblivion where racial passives mostly matter at lower levels they come into play at higher levels in ESO.
Now the later changes has fixed much of this, current patch added lots of QoL stuff on top.
Yes this one think Khajiit need an buff for obvious reasons as in cric chance was nerfed.

Scardan

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Something that has gone overlooked for a long time is how the new 1000 weapon and spell damage affect different racial passives differently. Khajiit are now top tier damage dealers because the base weapon and spell damage increases the base damage value of skills drastically which makes the 10% crit damage increase larger than it was, so much so that it even compensates for the nerf to crit chance!
Argonians have a similar situation where their 6% bonus to healing done used to be very weak but is now stronger than the healing bonus Altmer get from their 258 spell damage.

I don't want racial passives to be removed. I just want them to be fixed so they are actually representative of how these races have been described within the lore and previous games. Bosmer without stealth are just not Bosmer anymore.

I think, dunmers are BiS now. 1910 stam and mag and 258 weapon/ spell damage. Cats only have 915 stam/mag and only crit damage. Nerfs to crit chance made it imho unreliable damage source unless you specially go for it, but for doing so, you will sacrifice weapon/spell damage (daggers instead of swords for example) and dunmer...has weapon and spell damage. His crit modifiers are theoretically higher than khajiits.

virtus753

zaria wrote: »

virtus753 wrote: »

PaddyVu wrote: »

I would like to make racial passive become world passive, u can choose nord or highelf or whatever u want like a skill ( and u must follow that line so no abuse like stacking dmg )

That would mean they’d have to renamed, because they wouldn’t be racial bonuses anymore.

In the meantime, they’d have to go replace the racial bonuses, because those give the races gameplay identity in an MMORPG. It isn’t just about being able to chase meta more freely, because this game isn’t just an MMO. Races in the Elder Scrolls, as pointed out above, have come with racial bonuses in other games in the franchise. Taking that away means you’re pushing the game towards being an MMO at the expense of an ES RPG, whereas the devs (though they do accept this as an MMO now) clearly want to keep a lot of the RPG and ES elements. So even though they take at times a much freer hand in changing the particular bonuses, the fact there are racial bonuses is a core part of keeping the RPG and Elder Scrolls identities.

That is correct, however unlike Morrowind or Oblivion where racial passives mostly matter at lower levels they come into play at higher levels in ESO.
Now the later changes has fixed much of this, current patch added lots of QoL stuff on top.
Yes this one think Khajiit need an buff for obvious reasons as in cric chance was nerfed.

Yeah, everyone’s going to need to figure out crit this patch. Thief is a good way to do it. Especially when Khajiit get the biggest unconditional critical damage and healing bonus in game. Templars and nightblades will also favor the Thief more because of their class passives.

Tommy_The_Gun

I will be honest.

Racial Passive balance is in a "not ideal" state at the moment. Sure, "mathematically" almost all races are in relatively close spot.
But the problem is the same as it was back in Wrathstone when 1st racial rebalance took place. Because of how game works, how things scale, some things is being favoured and there is a lot of things that although have a "Mathematically" similar power budget - those is niche, obscure, and not as useful.

^ This is the thing that imho ZOS failed to grasp during 1st racial rebalance, and also during recent racial rebalance.

Now, I am a kind of person who does not chase meta and I prefer to use race that I like more in terms of aesthetics, story and lore. But I am also an experienced player who know how some things in this game work and I can see how some races are drastically stronger than others (passive wise).

I will put it this way:
If, one day we will have a special race change token, that allows to change ONLY racial passives & keep your current character looks & voice - I would switch to Orc. Pretty much on all my characters.

Erebear

The first time I completed VCOSHM I was running an Orc Stamsorc and just couldn’t pull my weight. Basic set up 1T 1H 2DD. I switched everything over to Magsorc still being an Orc and we passed it. This was quite a few patches ago. I did a test on the 3 mil, as didn’t have the raid dummy yet, and still pulled 38k dps self buffed applying ele drain.

Think of the racial passives as more of the seasoning to the main course😀

BlueRaven

Lysette wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Bosmer are still strong as well, but they are not the sneaky archers like they were in the past anymore.

You realize you just effectively said: "Bosmer are still strong as well, but they are not Bosmer like they were in the past anymore,' right? Bosmer ARE sneaky, Bosmer ARE archers. Those are their two defining traits. Without that, they are Bosmer shaped nothings.

Bosmer are the best archers and their stealth is described as chameleon-like, Redguards are described as the most talented warriors, Altmer as those best suited to become mages, Khajiit aren't likely to be matched in their ability to acquire and market all kind of stuff and you don't mess with them, because their natural claw attacks are feared and they can dishearten you with fear, Bretons are hard to fool with magic and their affinity to conjuration is making them good summoner.

There is quite a lot of lore, when it comes to races, which is not reflected in ESO - and you are right, how can a race described as the best archers with chameleon-like stealth (see Oblivion wiki) not have stealth and archery boni?

I thought Bosmers bow bousxtas they learn bows faster. 🙄 Big deal.

Anyway, most if not all of the racial passive bear little resemblance to the single player game lore.

To learn it faster is not providing them with better archery - once learned nothing really makes them best archers.

Yup. It is very underwhelming.

Wolfpaw

Lysette wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Bosmer are still strong as well, but they are not the sneaky archers like they were in the past anymore.

You realize you just effectively said: "Bosmer are still strong as well, but they are not Bosmer like they were in the past anymore,' right? Bosmer ARE sneaky, Bosmer ARE archers. Those are their two defining traits. Without that, they are Bosmer shaped nothings.

Bosmer are the best archers and their stealth is described as chameleon-like, Redguards are described as the most talented warriors, Altmer as those best suited to become mages, Khajiit aren't likely to be matched in their ability to acquire and market all kind of stuff and you don't mess with them, because their natural claw attacks are feared and they can dishearten you with fear, Bretons are hard to fool with magic and their affinity to conjuration is making them good summoner.

There is quite a lot of lore, when it comes to races, which is not reflected in ESO - and you are right, how can a race described as the best archers with chameleon-like stealth (see Oblivion wiki) not have stealth and archery boni?

btw. Orcs are pretty with awesome tusks, how can you deny that - I guess you just envy their natural beauty and athletic body.

Maybe ZOS is saving bow passives for a Goblin racial 😉

100% on the Orc comment.

Sangwyne

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Something that has gone overlooked for a long time is how the new 1000 weapon and spell damage affect different racial passives differently. Khajiit are now top tier damage dealers because the base weapon and spell damage increases the base damage value of skills drastically which makes the 10% crit damage increase larger than it was, so much so that it even compensates for the nerf to crit chance!
Argonians have a similar situation where their 6% bonus to healing done used to be very weak but is now stronger than the healing bonus Altmer get from their 258 spell damage.

I don't want racial passives to be removed. I just want them to be fixed so they are actually representative of how these races have been described within the lore and previous games. Bosmer without stealth are just not Bosmer anymore.

No idea where you're getting this idea from, Khajiit weren't amazing damage dealers to begin with and only got a measly 2% crit damage compensation buff to their passives because ZOS realized that by reducing sources of critical chance and adding more critical damage through Minor Brittle's 10%, buffing Divines, the 5% buff to Major Force, and Axes, Khajiit's passive was being invalidated. Critical damage becomes more valuable when critical chance goes up and when critical damage goes down (becomes more scarce), and critical chance becomes more valuable when critical damage goes up and critical chance goes down; what do you think happens when critical damage goes up but critical chance goes down? With regards to Argonians, actual healing output was never really a concern for healers as they had a tendency to overheal anyway, it was their ability to sustain their healing spells while providing buffs and debuffs that was valued, and that aspect of Argonian was just nerfed. I agree with you completely on Bosmer, I'd like to see the game retain racial identities.

Chilly-McFreeze

Lysette wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Bosmer are still strong as well, but they are not the sneaky archers like they were in the past anymore.

You realize you just effectively said: "Bosmer are still strong as well, but they are not Bosmer like they were in the past anymore,' right? Bosmer ARE sneaky, Bosmer ARE archers. Those are their two defining traits. Without that, they are Bosmer shaped nothings.

Bosmer are the best archers and their stealth is described as chameleon-like, Redguards are described as the most talented warriors, Altmer as those best suited to become mages, Khajiit aren't likely to be matched in their ability to acquire and market all kind of stuff and you don't mess with them, because their natural claw attacks are feared and they can dishearten you with fear, Bretons are hard to fool with magic and their affinity to conjuration is making them good summoner.

There is quite a lot of lore, when it comes to races, which is not reflected in ESO - and you are right, how can a race described as the best archers with chameleon-like stealth (see Oblivion wiki) not have stealth and archery boni?

I thought Bosmers bow bousxtas they learn bows faster. 🙄 Big deal.

Anyway, most if not all of the racial passive bear little resemblance to the single player game lore.

To learn it faster is not providing them with better archery - once learned nothing really makes them best archers.

And then someone comes around and complains why his bosmer is forced into bows. Already had that before the big rebalance. They made racial passives more universal useful than before. Like it or not, it may killed diversity but increased viability.

Nagastani wrote: »

tigerborn62 wrote: »

I realize it's been suggested many, many times before, but I would really love racial passives be removed. Devs and community can figure out where to place those passives somewhere else. Please, ZoS. I'm begging you. I can't help it. I wanna look like a kitty while I dish out devastating damage with NO concern for racial passives. Thank you.

And how are you dishing out devastating damage with the absence of proc sets? Doesn't seem possible really. If everyone is stuck using the same thing then well... no one should be able to do devastating damage, which is tiresome, boring and very predictable.

Your khajiit crit dmg passives won't do *** for proc sets. In the current environment of proc set disabled pvp crit boni's worth is stronger than before.

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

I will put it this way:
If, one day we will have a special race change token, that allows to change ONLY racial passives & keep your current character looks & voice - I would switch to Orc. Pretty much on all my characters.

Maybe that's the reason why they won't separate passives from visuals?

Uryel

tigerborn62 wrote: »

I realize it's been suggested many, many times before, but I would really love racial passives be removed. Devs and community can figure out where to place those passives somewhere else. Please, ZoS. I'm begging you. I can't help it. I wanna look like a kitty while I dish out devastating damage with NO concern for racial passives. Thank you.

Well then, look like a kitten and do devastating damage. Assuming Khajiits are the worst choice for a damage dealer (which they are not), racial passives have only a moderate effect on combat abilities. You'd easily be really good at dishing out pain, just maybe not THE absolute best.

What racial passives majorly matter for are actually other aspects of the game. Like, stealth passive makes Khajiit exceptionnaly good at stealth, while it ruined Bosmers when that was removed from them. But the new champion system fixes that to some extent, so now even a clunky, clumsy, unable-to-hide-in-the-woods Bosmer can be a thief. Or rather, can be a thief again. Mine just came out of retirement after 2 years collecting dust.

Frankly, even if you were to make a redguard mage, you'd still easily deal huge damage, with the proper gear, skills and practice. But hey, meta, best in slot and whatnot, right ? If ity's not absolute best, it's absolute trash ? Out with that rubbish, play what you like, and make it good.

ElvenOverlord

tigerborn62 wrote: »

I realize it's been suggested many, many times before, but I would really love racial passives be removed. Devs and community can figure out where to place those passives somewhere else. Please, ZoS. I'm begging you. I can't help it. I wanna look like a kitty while I dish out devastating damage with NO concern for racial passives. Thank you.

No. Deal with it. Racial passives are a hallmark of not just elder scrolls but mmos in general. It provides unique differations between races and their strengths and what makes them unique. I'm 100% against their removal. Thankfully that's never gonna happen anyway.

Lysette

The changes with update 29 really brought some new life in some of my characters in surprising ways sometimes. like those new armor passives for example - heavy armor slows down and makes less stealthy, but the resistances it creates and the buffed up health made it possible to shine in new ways. light armor on the other side is quite squishy now and needs some support by other means, but the mobility gain is quite awesome as well - now combined with a race which suits these differences the best enhances racial identity - my Redguard is now how the lore describes her, a most talented warrior, and that as a nightblade even - no longer just a glass cannon - she has quite a lot sustain and buffed up stats across the board with high regen as well. Still playing around with it, but with the right equipment I can make them more lore-compatible.

My Khajiits are doing really fine as well - now I can go with weapons, I didn't have a high affinity to before (dual wielding daggers). they are doing well as nightblade and warden. Well, half of my characters are nightblades, it has nothing to do with the changes, they just are what they are - but they are all doing fine since the update - even those 2, I really disliked (templar and dk) are doing well now. Haven't tested my Breton and Dunmer necros yet, but I bet they'll be doing great as well.