Guild leader kicked me from trade guild

starkerealm

spartaxoxo wrote: »

You should include that he scammed you out of gold too if not killing him was not listed as something you could lose guild state for since he didn't refund you

Bad idea. When you start inflating claims against someone (especially in a situation like this) it harms the credibility of the initial complaint.

Chat harassment? Okay fine, easy enough to prove.
Scamming? Yeah, that gets a lot more complicated.
Guild removal? Not our problem.

So, yeah, with situations like this, inflating it with, "and then he shot mah dog," doesn't help your case.

Thorley23_ESO

FIRE_PANTHER_321 wrote: »

How do I report a guild leader that kicked me from guild and I harassing me in game chat. Have screenshots that I need to add. He is a leader of the main trading guild in NA ps4 server and died to me in imperial city after constantly trying to kill our group. He then kicked me and called me a cheating and would not refund my gold for being in guild

Nothing anyone can do about something like that, as it's a player to player issue. The harassment part might be the exception, but in practice they aren't going to do much except tell you to put him on ignore. All the server policies about behavior are great, but since screen shots can be easily doctored they in general aren't considered true "evidence" by any MMO I know of. I know people who have tried to go after PVP cheaters and things like that in various games and captured entire matches of bad behavior and gotten nowhere with it because they were told they couldn't accept any evidence not witnessed by a GM first hand (and since the GM's don't do their job in most MMOs, guess how often they are actually watching PVP matches).

At any rate, my suggestion is just to put him on ignore and find another guild. I can't see there being only one trading guild on the PS 4, I know on PC we have tons of them.

Also to be brutally honest with you, remember we only have your side of the story here. For all we know you actually did cheat when you killed him, which is why he's POed.

What's more, there is also a matter of common sense involved. Unless you know the guy well, if your guild leader shows up on the other side in PVP that's always going to be an awkward kind of situation. In ESO be careful what guilds you join and pay attention to their policies. Some guilds will tell you flat out that they only allow members to PVP with one faction specifically to avoid this kind of thing.

zaria

FIRE_PANTHER_321 wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

FIRE_PANTHER_321 wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

FIRE_PANTHER_321 wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

just forget about it - see it like this - he isn't worth your time - and 15k gold are earned quickly again.

Yeah I've done what I can so time to game on I guess. Guess posting anything about the leader wouldn't be good idea. Is there anyway I can post this to prevent others getting scammed

on forum you aren't allowed to name and shame - so it has to be somewhere else.

Well if you know anywhere I'd like to share thanks

i don't and I don't think as well that he will scam others - it was more kind of a personal revenge on you - not something you can assume him doing to everyone by no reason.

I actually found out from someone else after it happened that he does it to anyone that kills him. Its been done before so will keep happening since he can't handle dying. He could least say on his guild notes that he'll kick if someone kill him

[snip] now if this was an PvP focused guild they can have requirements like not playing other factions during guild run times. My pvp guild has this rule.
But if this is an trading guild it makes no sense.

[Edited to remove Baiting]

FIRE_PANTHER_321

All good. Will see if there is any response. Us Aussies are hard to keep down so I'll find new trade guild and try to make sure not to kill the leader

spartaxoxo

SilverBride wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

You should include that he scammed you out of gold too if not killing him was not listed as something you could lose guild state for since he didn't refund you

He didn't scam him out of gold. The gold was dues for being in the guild. He was in the guild.

Guilds do not have to disclose reasons a player may be removed because they don't have to have a reason.

The gold in a trading guild is for the trader. He didn't receive access to the trader. He should be refunded. It's a breach of their contract. The guy didn't do intentionally so of course he shouldn't be banned or anything, but zos should make him give this player his money back. Maybe scam is too strong of a word but it's clearly a violation.

If he was kicked for nonpayment, violating posted rules, causing disruption, or other normal reasons, I'd agree with you. Those things are part of the implied contract of being in a guild. But nobody expects to be kicked for killing someone attacking them in pvp.

My guild leader refunded people who asked when she turned the guild social for weeks we wouldn't have a trader. And also got another guild to just accept the weeks they had paid. Another guild I am in does not accept prepayment, so they can remove people at any time without issue. Those are good ways to run a trading guild. They are good guild leaders and those are how it should be done.

Taking someone's money in advance for a service not yet rendered, attacking them, and then kicking them because you lost the fight is not.

stewhead2ub17_ESO

If you feel you're being harassed then report it. [snip]

[Edited to remove Baiting]

wolfbone

there's a lot of terrible guild leaders in this game, I was in one guild, where the guild leader happily let everyone bully me and did nothing when I complained, but got all angry where I told them all to get screwed cos what they where doing was wrong. I think we should be able to report guilds for negative behavior, or harassments, which should be investigated.

DragonRacer

If it's who I think it is - because I'm pretty sure I have heard stories of this kind of behavior from them before - they have an account here on the forum, so could get spicy if they spot this thread and decide to say something. Fair warning. And if it's who I think it is, same person whispered me very angry with curse words asking what my problem was for... the great crime of my guild winning a guild trader that their second, donation-based guild had put a bid on (not their big main Mournhold guild). Like, angry whisper fest for what felt like 20-30 minutes right after trader flip. This was maybe a year or so ago, but just caught me so off-guard. One minute, I'm updating my guild MOTD about a trader win, the next I'm getting hate-whispers of curse words for it.

So... not thinking you're gonna see that money again. I'd just let it go and move on and try to avoid that person.

No idea if you'll now be blacklisted from their collective of guilds that work together, as can be common practice, but there are lots of other trading guilds on PS4 NA. Check Guild Finder or ask friends for recommendations. There are some not associated with that guild and its cabal of friends that often seem to also win capital traders (if a capital trading guild is a must for you), and also non-associated trading guilds who regularly land good sub-capitals.

trackdemon5512

Lotta talk and hate in here for the guild leader. Not one of y’all has seen a single communication between the two.

Was there legit one side trolling? Was there no trolling? Is the OP just salty?

Already I can see that this was a 1vX situation and that just breed trash talk between players. Add to it being Imperial City and Tel Var being lost also a possibility.

And hey, paying dues for a trade guild doesn’t entitle you to not slighting players. You expect a capital trading guild to refund you for something like this? Those guilds have extremely high turnover, should they refund anyone who gets kicked or leaves early? On PS4 there aren’t any management tools like PC so no one is gonna to automate refunds or such.

[snip]

[Edited to remove Baiting]

Inaya

SilverBride wrote: »

FIRE_PANTHER_321 wrote: »

Well he didn't have anything in guild messages about killing each other and I asked for the gold back but that's not happening apparently. The gold is to let me be a part of selling in guild and by not allowing me that I deem that as stealing myself

He doesn't have to post warnings and he doesn't have to give your gold back. You paid dues to be in the guild... you were in the guild... he did not steal from you. Stealing would be if he had taken your gold then not let you in the guild. But that's not what happened.

Honestly I don't think it was wise to kill your guild leader in the first place. He may have seen that as a lack of respect.

Actually, when I played WOW and organized events for my guild the ones with the highest attendance were the ones where the GM was killed repeatedly (shot out of a cannon, jumping off cliffs and laying on the ground as a target, arena's, etc....)

ZOS_ConnorG

Greetings all,

After review we have had to edit or remove several posts for rule violations, mostly Baiting. Ensure when engaging in a discussion that you keep said discussion civil, constructive, and within the rules. If you see a post that is baiting in nature do not engage it with further hostility and instead report it for the moderators to review.

You are welcome to review the Community Rules here.

robertthebard

Kurat wrote: »

Kicking is not against ToS. You can kick anyone at any time with no reason from guilds or any group content. Also messages doesn't qualify as harassment. Its not against ToS to tell someone off or let them know how I feel about their behavior, gameplay or that they suck and etc. Harassment is constant grief or following or nasty messages over period of time.
Some people just look for drama where there isnt any. Find another guild and move on.

Yeah, that's why a single forum post can get you banned, depending on what you said. I know that the vast majority of my warnings have come to replying to posts just like this one.

PizzaCat82

I'm sorry this happened to you OP, maybe one day we can play the game without worrying about angering the person who controls our ability to trade each week.

There's probably nothing you can do about it, but I'd open a ticket for scamming since you were promised x number of weeks of trading for your gold and you were not able to receive that amount.

They might at least give you some gold back out of pity.

Nagastani

Its called hope for the best but expect the worst and this is especially true when dealing with people.

Walk away from this rotten experience stronger than before. Sadly, I've been thru similar situation in the past and you cannot really right this. Do what you can but at some point you have to let it go and move on.

The more of your time they waste the longer they will win over you. With that said, I like your Imperial City response, that was the direction I went in as well. Where there's a will there's a build. Stop talking to them and make 'em pay for it.

Time for talk is over.

SickleCider

1. All is fair in IC. You were in your right to kill him there. Just because someone is a guild leader doesn't mean you have to let them farm you.
2. Report him for the post-kick harassment, then block him.
3. Unfortunately people don't need a good reason (or any) to kick someone from a guild. It is what it is.
4. All the dithering about gold and dues isn't going to go anywhere. I'd let that one go.

jircris11

FIRE_PANTHER_321 wrote: »

How do I report a guild leader that kicked me from guild and I harassing me in game chat. Have screenshots that I need to add. He is a leader of the main trading guild in NA ps4 server and died to me in imperial city after constantly trying to kill our group. He then kicked me and called me a cheating and would not refund my gold for being in guild

While this is Crappy there is not much that can be done. The gold can be earned back and a new guild found. If he did harass you though then report that. Nothing will come from it instantly but if he had a history of it then they will take action.

Sju

DragonRacer wrote: »

If it's who I think it is - because I'm pretty sure I have heard stories of this kind of behavior from them before - they have an account here on the forum, so could get spicy if they spot this thread and decide to say something. Fair warning. And if it's who I think it is, same person whispered me very angry with curse words asking what my problem was for... the great crime of my guild winning a guild trader that their second, donation-based guild had put a bid on (not their big main Mournhold guild). Like, angry whisper fest for what felt like 20-30 minutes right after trader flip. This was maybe a year or so ago, but just caught me so off-guard. One minute, I'm updating my guild MOTD about a trader win, the next I'm getting hate-whispers of curse words for it.

So... not thinking you're gonna see that money again. I'd just let it go and move on and try to avoid that person.

No idea if you'll now be blacklisted from their collective of guilds that work together, as can be common practice, but there are lots of other trading guilds on PS4 NA. Check Guild Finder or ask friends for recommendations. There are some not associated with that guild and its cabal of friends that often seem to also win capital traders (if a capital trading guild is a must for you), and also non-associated trading guilds who regularly land good sub-capitals.

Hmm, sounds like one of the "mafia" guild leaders. I'm willing to bet you and I are thinking the same person.

Eedat

Really all you can do is report and move on. All we have is one side of the story which generally is going to be cherry picked and embellished to make you seem as good as possible and then as bad a possible. For all we know you could have escalated the situation yourself. There is no rule over kicking someone from a guild.

SilverBride

spartaxoxo wrote: »

The gold in a trading guild is for the trader. He didn't receive access to the trader. He should be refunded. It's a breach of their contract. The guy didn't do intentionally so of course he shouldn't be banned or anything, but zos should make him give this player his money back. Maybe scam is too strong of a word but it's clearly a violation.

If he was kicked for nonpayment, violating posted rules, causing disruption, or other normal reasons, I'd agree with you. Those things are part of the implied contract of being in a guild. But nobody expects to be kicked for killing someone attacking them in pvp.

The gold in a trading guild is for whatever the guild leader wants it to be. You pay dues in exchange for a service. What they do with the gold after that is their business. There is no scam or violation here.

The contract between the guild leader and the member is as above. You pay them for the service of using their trader. That is the entire contract. You can't come back and claim that if he did this thing he is entitled to a refund, but if he did that thing he isn't. That was never in the contract and you cannot come back later and add stipulations after the fact.

I agree that the guild leader should have refunded the unused dues just because it's damaging to his reputation with the community if he doesn't. But he is not obligated to.

Araneae6537

SilverBride wrote: »

FIRE_PANTHER_321 wrote: »

Well he didn't have anything in guild messages about killing each other and I asked for the gold back but that's not happening apparently. The gold is to let me be a part of selling in guild and by not allowing me that I deem that as stealing myself

He doesn't have to post warnings and he doesn't have to give your gold back. You paid dues to be in the guild... you were in the guild... he did not steal from you. Stealing would be if he had taken your gold then not let you in the guild. But that's not what happened.

Honestly I don't think it was wise to kill your guild leader in the first place. He may have seen that as a lack of respect.

Totally do not be in a guild with a leader who will see killing them in a PvP area as a lack of respect. And guild leaders should be respected in their roles, but when that extends to other privileges or some blurred line between rp and ooc, that is not a good environment and asking for drama. Now kicking someone for trolling or griefing anyone would be okay but only with a clearly stated rule or warning first unless it was something beyond what most people would consider okay.

TL;DR From what has been written, this person has no business running a guild. However, nothing they did was against TOS.

The consequences will be more organic in nature as they kick or drive away any sensible players from their guild. I’m sorry that you had this experience; dealing with drama and trolling sucks as does losing the gold. I know, from other circumstances other games, and empathize. I think it best to just block this person and move on and in the future, wait to invest in a guild until you know you are comfortable with how it is run.

trackdemon5512

Araneae6537 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

FIRE_PANTHER_321 wrote: »

Well he didn't have anything in guild messages about killing each other and I asked for the gold back but that's not happening apparently. The gold is to let me be a part of selling in guild and by not allowing me that I deem that as stealing myself

He doesn't have to post warnings and he doesn't have to give your gold back. You paid dues to be in the guild... you were in the guild... he did not steal from you. Stealing would be if he had taken your gold then not let you in the guild. But that's not what happened.

Honestly I don't think it was wise to kill your guild leader in the first place. He may have seen that as a lack of respect.

Totally do not be in a guild with a leader who will see killing them in a PvP area as a lack of respect. And guild leaders should be respected in their roles, but when that extends to other privileges or some blurred line between rp and ooc, that is not a good environment and asking for drama. Now kicking someone for trolling or griefing anyone would be okay but only with a clearly stated rule or warning first unless it was something beyond what most people would consider okay.

TL;DR From what has been written, this person has no business running a guild. However, nothing they did was against TOS.

The consequences will be more organic in nature as they kick or drive away any sensible players from their guild. I’m sorry that you had this experience; dealing with drama and trolling sucks as does losing the gold. I know, from other circumstances other games, and empathize. I think it best to just block this person and move on and in the future, wait to invest in a guild until you know you are comfortable with how it is run.

@Araneae6537

The person in question runs several of the largest trading guilds on PS4 NA. [snip] at that with years of consistent placement in the same spots. That's no small feat.

People will always have haters but this individual definitely has what it takes to run such a guild. There are different styles of management and I'm sure a single instance of mutual animosity doesn't disqualify this guild leader from being a good person.

[Edited to remove Naming and Shaming]

cyclonus11

SilverBride wrote: »

FIRE_PANTHER_321 wrote: »

He had advance gold for coming weeks already payed. I can't sell for the next 3 weeks but he has those weekly dues already.

Why did you pay so many weeks in advance? I would only pay a week at a time. Then if something like this happens you aren't out anything.

Because guilds don't do this on the regular. Some guilds will accept advance payments to prevent kicking for inactivity. Others even have "lifetime" amounts that you can pay and never have to worry about dues again.

This is the first I've heard of a guild leader kicking someone for killing them in PVP (and they even attacked first )

cyclonus11

I can see how it would be a problem if the guild was hosting a PVP event and other guildies secretly went after them knowing the event was taking place. But this very much doesn't sound like such a situation. lol

cyclonus11

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

Araneae6537 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

FIRE_PANTHER_321 wrote: »

Well he didn't have anything in guild messages about killing each other and I asked for the gold back but that's not happening apparently. The gold is to let me be a part of selling in guild and by not allowing me that I deem that as stealing myself

He doesn't have to post warnings and he doesn't have to give your gold back. You paid dues to be in the guild... you were in the guild... he did not steal from you. Stealing would be if he had taken your gold then not let you in the guild. But that's not what happened.

Honestly I don't think it was wise to kill your guild leader in the first place. He may have seen that as a lack of respect.

Totally do not be in a guild with a leader who will see killing them in a PvP area as a lack of respect. And guild leaders should be respected in their roles, but when that extends to other privileges or some blurred line between rp and ooc, that is not a good environment and asking for drama. Now kicking someone for trolling or griefing anyone would be okay but only with a clearly stated rule or warning first unless it was something beyond what most people would consider okay.

TL;DR From what has been written, this person has no business running a guild. However, nothing they did was against TOS.

The consequences will be more organic in nature as they kick or drive away any sensible players from their guild. I’m sorry that you had this experience; dealing with drama and trolling sucks as does losing the gold. I know, from other circumstances other games, and empathize. I think it best to just block this person and move on and in the future, wait to invest in a guild until you know you are comfortable with how it is run.

@Araneae6537

The person in question runs several of the largest trading guilds on PS4 NA. [snip] at that with years of consistent placement in the same spots. That's no small feat.

People will always have haters but this individual definitely has what it takes to run such a guild. There are different styles of management and I'm sure a single instance of mutual animosity doesn't disqualify this guild leader from being a good person.

Just because the person runs several of the largest trading guilds on PS4 NA doesn't mean they're a good person, either.

Araneae6537

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

Araneae6537 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

FIRE_PANTHER_321 wrote: »

Well he didn't have anything in guild messages about killing each other and I asked for the gold back but that's not happening apparently. The gold is to let me be a part of selling in guild and by not allowing me that I deem that as stealing myself

He doesn't have to post warnings and he doesn't have to give your gold back. You paid dues to be in the guild... you were in the guild... he did not steal from you. Stealing would be if he had taken your gold then not let you in the guild. But that's not what happened.

Honestly I don't think it was wise to kill your guild leader in the first place. He may have seen that as a lack of respect.

Totally do not be in a guild with a leader who will see killing them in a PvP area as a lack of respect. And guild leaders should be respected in their roles, but when that extends to other privileges or some blurred line between rp and ooc, that is not a good environment and asking for drama. Now kicking someone for trolling or griefing anyone would be okay but only with a clearly stated rule or warning first unless it was something beyond what most people would consider okay.

TL;DR From what has been written, this person has no business running a guild. However, nothing they did was against TOS.

The consequences will be more organic in nature as they kick or drive away any sensible players from their guild. I’m sorry that you had this experience; dealing with drama and trolling sucks as does losing the gold. I know, from other circumstances other games, and empathize. I think it best to just block this person and move on and in the future, wait to invest in a guild until you know you are comfortable with how it is run.

@Araneae6537

The person in question runs several of the largest trading guilds on PS4 NA. Capital traders at that with years of consistent placement in the same spots. That's no small feat.

People will always have haters but this individual definitely has what it takes to run such a guild. There are different styles of management and I'm sure a single instance of mutual animosity doesn't disqualify this guild leader from being a good person.

I was basing my comments on what I had read, that this guild leader plays PvP but will then kick and harass players for killing him. If that is indeed the case, that itself is a horrible style of management, even if they excel in other aspects of running a guild. Now it may well be that we are not getting the full story and so my comments may not apply at all to the person in question; I cannot know. But it sounds like in any case the best thing is for OP to move on.

Bucky_13

SilverBride wrote: »

FIRE_PANTHER_321 wrote: »

Well he didn't have anything in guild messages about killing each other and I asked for the gold back but that's not happening apparently. The gold is to let me be a part of selling in guild and by not allowing me that I deem that as stealing myself

He doesn't have to post warnings and he doesn't have to give your gold back. You paid dues to be in the guild... you were in the guild... he did not steal from you. Stealing would be if he had taken your gold then not let you in the guild. But that's not what happened.

Honestly I don't think it was wise to kill your guild leader in the first place. He may have seen that as a lack of respect.

Umm, if this was a faction specific PvP guild and the GM was of the correct faction, I'd agree with you. This wasn't that case tho, it's a trade guild. If the GM can't take getting killed by another guildie in PvP, it tells me that this is a person that isn't mature enough to be in any form of leadership position. If I meet any of the GMs of my trade guilds in PvP, I will 100% kill them, probably gank them too if given an opportunity. They are also mature enough to handle that which is one of many reasons why I'm part of those guilds.

The GM this thread is about, would never want to be a part of that guild.

spartaxoxo

SilverBride wrote: »

l
I agree that the guild leader should have refunded the unused dues just because it's damaging to his reputation with the community if he doesn't. But he is not obligated to.

That's not how contracts work. ZoS may choose not to enforce such things and decide to just let things stand because it's not worth their time to arbitrate such things. But when you state X gold is for Y thing (and 15k per week for guild trader access is explicit) then you are entering a contract and have an ethical (and legal if it were real money) responsibility to offer that precise thing. Otherwise you're in breach of contract and can be be taken to an authority for relief.

By not refunding him while kicking him for a reason that is not typical to the implied social contract of a guild, he has violated their agreement and not given him the service for which he already accepted coin. ZOS should force him to refund the dude. The dude is free to make any rules he wants for his guild, but he also to tell and honor them. If he won't do that then he's ethically a rip-off artist and in violation of tos, even if ZoS chooses not to enforce it.

That's assuming OP'S story is how things actually went down, of course. I don't know if OP did something else that would have gotten him kicked anywhere

robertthebard

SilverBride wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

The gold in a trading guild is for the trader. He didn't receive access to the trader. He should be refunded. It's a breach of their contract. The guy didn't do intentionally so of course he shouldn't be banned or anything, but zos should make him give this player his money back. Maybe scam is too strong of a word but it's clearly a violation.

If he was kicked for nonpayment, violating posted rules, causing disruption, or other normal reasons, I'd agree with you. Those things are part of the implied contract of being in a guild. But nobody expects to be kicked for killing someone attacking them in pvp.

The gold in a trading guild is for whatever the guild leader wants it to be. You pay dues in exchange for a service. What they do with the gold after that is their business. There is no scam or violation here.

The contract between the guild leader and the member is as above. You pay them for the service of using their trader. That is the entire contract. You can't come back and claim that if he did this thing he is entitled to a refund, but if he did that thing he isn't. That was never in the contract and you cannot come back later and add stipulations after the fact.

I agree that the guild leader should have refunded the unused dues just because it's damaging to his reputation with the community if he doesn't. But he is not obligated to.

[snip] It's a trading guild, and the dues are to pay for and maintain traders, first and foremost. I'm not going to join, or continue to pay dues in, a trading guild where the funds go to buy the GL some fancy house or something, instead of providing the service they're supposed to provide, a trader.

[snip]

[Edited to remove Baiting and Inappropriate Content]

SilverBride

spartaxoxo wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

l
I agree that the guild leader should have refunded the unused dues just because it's damaging to his reputation with the community if he doesn't. But he is not obligated to.

That's not how contracts work. ZoS may choose not to enforce such things and decide to just let things stand because it's not worth their time to arbitrate such things. But when you state X gold is for Y thing (and 15k per week for guild trader access is explicit) then you are entering a contract and have an ethical (and legal if it were real money) responsibility to offer that precise thing. Otherwise you're in breach of contract and can be be taken to an authority for relief.

By not refunding him while kicking him for a reason that is not typical to the implied social contract of a guild, he has violated their agreement and not given him the service for which he already accepted coin. ZOS should force him to refund the dude. The dude is free to make any rules he wants for his guild, but he also to tell and honor them. If he won't do that then he's ethically a rip-off artist and in violation of tos, even if ZoS chooses not to enforce it.

That's assuming OP'S story is how things actually went down, of course. I don't know if OP did something else that would have gotten him kicked anywhere

That is how contacts work. He paid dues for trader access. There was no refund policy so the guild leader isn't obligated to provide a refund now.

You can argue that his actions weren't ethical, but you can't claim that he violated terms that never existed. And there is no "implied social contract of a guild", which is just another description of ethics. Ethics aren't a legal obligation.

Putting all personal opinions aside, the guild leader did not do anything that violated the ToS, and that's all that matters in this case. ZoS isn't going to take action against this guild leader because he was within the ToS.

ZOS_ConnorG

Greetings all,

After review we have closed this thread as it beginning to devolve and has increasing amounts of Naming and Shaming violations. The Naming and Shaming rule is in place to prevent witch hunts and mob actions.

You are welcome to review the Community Rules here.