New Dual Wield Meta???

OminousThreat

Just curious is it now dagger/dagger from update 29?

TheUndeadAmulet

Yeah, but you can replace one dagger with a mace and change the trait to precise to get basically the same effect

Bodycounter

From what i have read and heard:

• Maces should be best when you are not able to hit penetration cap
• Daggers should be best for most magicka classes, especially without ranged spammable
• Axes could be best in slot for Khajiit

Im already running my Magicka Sorcerer with a two-hander frontbar and lightning staff backbar. Even if it does lose some DPS i love the style of it.

Scardan

I would like to run my necromancer with sword and dagger. I am just afraid of clunkiness. Not weaving la at range feels horribly. I may use bow, really. Crit chance is there too.

nesakinter

Bodycounter wrote: »

From what i have read and heard:

• Maces should be best when you are not able to hit penetration cap
• Daggers should be best for most magicka classes, especially without ranged spammable
• Axes could be best in slot for Khajiit

Im already running my Magicka Sorcerer with a two-hander frontbar and lightning staff backbar. Even if it does lose some DPS i love the style of it.

@Bodycounter Axes would be worst for Khajiit of all races as critical damage has diminishing returns.

Bodycounter

nesakinter wrote: »

@Bodycounter Axes would be worst for Khajiit of all races as critical damage has diminishing returns.

Oh, really? Thought it works additively.

preevious

Indeed, it's additive. There is no diminishing returns in crit damage.
There are just not many sources for it.

Larcomar

Bodycounter wrote: »

From what i have read and heard:

• Maces should be best when you are not able to hit penetration cap
• Daggers should be best for most magicka classes, especially without ranged spammable
• Axes could be best in slot for Khajiit

Im already running my Magicka Sorcerer with a two-hander frontbar and lightning staff backbar. Even if it does lose some DPS i love the style of it.

I'm doing the same on my little khajit nightblade - concealed weapon as spammable - and love it. I know duel is technically better than 2h, but put him in a khajit heavy mask, some of the new doctrine ordinator and give him the 2h that looks like a katana, he looks like a samurai. Ok, a mini samurai with a tail. But still.... Funny thing is, he still does really good dps with this set up. Mainly did it for overland and normals, but might even run it in vets. If I don't get kicked

Snowstrider

Useful for magicka too? Maybe destro backbar and daggers frontbar? Is it better or worse then double destro staff?

Bodycounter

Snowstrider wrote: »

Useful for magicka too? Maybe destro backbar and daggers frontbar? Is it better or worse then double destro staff?

So far it looks like Daggers and Swords are currently stronger on frontbar than Destruction Staffs for magicka classes that can afford to stay in melee range during combat. Especially Frost and Lightning staffs seem to fall shorter with every patch.

Septimus_Magna

Snowstrider wrote: »

Useful for magicka too? Maybe destro backbar and daggers frontbar? Is it better or worse then double destro staff?

For magicka build the difference is pretty small but in the trail dummy parses that Ive seen DW daggers on the front bar are a bit stronger than a fire staff. If you're in melee range DW daggers are a nice option, maybe for magDK and magplar.

For classes that can stay at range I would not switch to DW daggers, with light armor you have low resist and its safer to stay at range in most cases.

For stamina builds there is little difference between a sharpened dagger or precise mace. I believe nirnhoned dagger+sharpened dagger performs the best if you're at max pen.

FrancisCrawford

One little thing to remember -- +X% damage means more than it used to, because the denominator to divide it by has gone down.

Fennwitty

When making my khajiit nightblade I initially went dual wield before changing to magicka.

Now it looks like dual wield on one bar is back on the table

I was thinking about getting the Maelstrom Arena Dual Wield weapon Cruel Flurry (RNG willing) and using it with a Magblade for DPS. It should buff my magicka DOTs, but I'm not sure how the math works out when you consider the initial skill use itself is a Stam skill and I won't have much stats into Stam.

Any thoughts whether the Cruel Flurry lower initial damage outweighs the potential +DOT damage to skills like Debilitate, Degeneration and Consuming Trap?

Would the single target component of Dark Shade/Shadow Image count as a DOT for those 4 seconds?

WrathOfInnos

Daggers, Swords and Maces are all good in various situations. Never use axes, they are ridiculously underpowered. Even at 100% crit chance axes do not perform better than other weapons. 7% crit damage would be appropriate, even 6% would allow them to be used on some niche builds, but 4% is just a joke.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

It does look like double dagger is going to be meta for fights where you can stack in melee range. For any fight were you need to spend time at range (or even the back row of a traditional semi circle stack), staff is likely still going to be your best option.

If your goal is a dummy parse, time to farm some Siroria daggers. I am not too fussed about it TBH. I plan to use a staff for the foreseeable future. The difference is not earthshattering, and I usually play a "ranged" character in my raids which means I am back row and often need to range down adds for mechanics. When I do occupy a melee spot, I typically bring stamina anyways.

Bodycounter

Fennwitty wrote: »

Any thoughts whether the Cruel Flurry lower initial damage outweighs the potential +DOT damage to skills like Debilitate, Degeneration and Consuming Trap?

Afaik: you would have to cast Flurry every few seconds as a semi-spammable to increase your DoT-damage which would result in lowering your overall DPS because Flurry does not scale with a magicka build.

VoidCommander

All my tests on PTS where I increased my penetration to to cap (by using two sharpened maces) resulted in significantly less dps than when I used precise daggers. Is having one trait in sharpened really the way to go? Was I over-penning at that point?

VoidCommander

VoidCommander wrote: »

All my tests on PTS where I increased my penetration to to cap (by using two sharpened maces) resulted in significantly less dps than when I used precise daggers. Is having one trait in sharpened really the way to go? Was I over-penning at that point?

Ok so I just tested it again. I got roughly 500 more dps when I ran a single sharpened trait on two daggers. That isn't enough of a difference to conclude anything one way or the other, because you can always close the penetration gap with sets like alkosh, tremorscale, and having a stamsorc in the group. If you have those three things, but people are running sharpened, you miss out on free bonus damage.

When I switched to 2 sharpened daggers, that is when I saw a sharp decline in dps, down by 3000. I think it is safe to say that if you do choose to run sharpened, definately limit it to only 1. Since no matter the combination you chose requires at least 1 dagger anyways, makes sense to just make two daggers with one MAYBE sharpened instead of farming out a mace as well.

In conclusion, I would say it would be better for the long term health of stamina dps to run both daggers in precise, because we now get 1400 penetration guaranteed (once you farm the cp) from the CP tree. That is basically a sharpened, and a tank can easily run tremorscale to close the penetration cap for a stamina dps group. Running sharpened might be barely better in an isolated chamber, but it limits the potential for stamina damage groups to grow.

Evil_Rurouni

Bodycounter wrote: »

nesakinter wrote: »

@Bodycounter Axes would be worst for Khajiit of all races as critical damage has diminishing returns.

Oh, really? Thought it works additively.

OK, assuming I understand how crit works correctly:


Crit damage on top of more crit damage is additive, yes.
Crit damage on top of crit chance is multiplicative however.
And both are multiplicative with base damage.

So maximising the total damage of crits is like trying to design a cube for maximum internal capacity with limitations on the total length of the sides.

To visualise:



If you can only add one layer of cubes to that picture, you'll get more cubes in total by adding to the shortest axis ( touching the orange and green sides), and the least by adding to the longest axis ( touching the white and green sides)

Adding more crit damage to khajiit is analagous to adding to the white X green axis of that cube.

Chilly-McFreeze

Evil_Rurouni wrote: »

Bodycounter wrote: »

nesakinter wrote: »

@Bodycounter Axes would be worst for Khajiit of all races as critical damage has diminishing returns.

Oh, really? Thought it works additively.

OK, assuming I understand how crit works correctly:


Crit damage on top of more crit damage is additive, yes.
Crit damage on top of crit chance is multiplicative however.
And both are multiplicative with base damage.

So maximising the total damage of crits is like trying to design a cube for maximum internal capacity with limitations on the total length of the sides.

To visualise:



If you can only add one layer of cubes to that picture, you'll get more cubes in total by adding to the smallest axis (orange X green), and the least by adding to the largest axis (white X green)

Adding more crit damage to khajiit is analagous to adding to the white X green axis of that cube.

If you're having 50% crit chance and 50% crit damage you deal 25% more damage.
If you're having 50% chance and 100% damage you deal 50% more damage.
If you're having 100% chance and 50% damage you deal 50% more.

No need to go crazy.

the1andonlyskwex

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Evil_Rurouni wrote: »

Bodycounter wrote: »

nesakinter wrote: »

@Bodycounter Axes would be worst for Khajiit of all races as critical damage has diminishing returns.

Oh, really? Thought it works additively.

OK, assuming I understand how crit works correctly:


Crit damage on top of more crit damage is additive, yes.
Crit damage on top of crit chance is multiplicative however.
And both are multiplicative with base damage.

So maximising the total damage of crits is like trying to design a cube for maximum internal capacity with limitations on the total length of the sides.

To visualise:



If you can only add one layer of cubes to that picture, you'll get more cubes in total by adding to the smallest axis (orange X green), and the least by adding to the largest axis (white X green)

Adding more crit damage to khajiit is analagous to adding to the white X green axis of that cube.

If you're having 50% crit chance and 50% crit damage you deal 25% more damage.
If you're having 50% chance and 100% damage you deal 50% more damage.
If you're having 100% chance and 50% damage you deal 50% more.

No need to go crazy.

You're missing the point though. Khajiit's crit damage bonus makes them more likely to benefit from daggers, not more likely to benefit from axes.

Stahlor

"New Dual Wield Meta???"

It's not new - it's the return of the DW meta.

wheresbes

Bodycounter wrote: »

Snowstrider wrote: »

Useful for magicka too? Maybe destro backbar and daggers frontbar? Is it better or worse then double destro staff?

So far it looks like Daggers and Swords are currently stronger on frontbar than Destruction Staffs for magicka classes that can afford to stay in melee range during combat. Especially Frost and Lightning staffs seem to fall shorter with every patch.

Can someone explain this to me, please? I'd love to use something other than staves on my magblade, but I don't see how that could work. Crit chance and pen with non-magical weapons is awful. Did something change with the new CP system regarding this? (I'm on console so we still have the old one)

Stahlor

wheresbes wrote: »

Bodycounter wrote: »

Snowstrider wrote: »

Useful for magicka too? Maybe destro backbar and daggers frontbar? Is it better or worse then double destro staff?

So far it looks like Daggers and Swords are currently stronger on frontbar than Destruction Staffs for magicka classes that can afford to stay in melee range during combat. Especially Frost and Lightning staffs seem to fall shorter with every patch.

Can someone explain this to me, please? I'd love to use something other than staves on my magblade, but I don't see how that could work. Crit chance and pen with non-magical weapons is awful. Did something change with the new CP system regarding this? (I'm on console so we still have the old one)

weapon passives have changed

wheresbes

Stahlor wrote: »

weapon passives have changed

Thanks, I'll have a look into those!

The_Lex

Stahlor wrote: »

"New Dual Wield Meta???"

It's not new - it's the return of the DW meta.

This. The first Sorc I ever made had a dw front bar. That was the meta, but we’re talking quite a few years ago.

Scardan

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Daggers, Swords and Maces are all good in various situations. Never use axes, they are ridiculously underpowered. Even at 100% crit chance axes do not perform better than other weapons. 7% crit damage would be appropriate, even 6% would allow them to be used on some niche builds, but 4% is just a joke.

Why?

Bodycounter

Scardan wrote: »

Why?

Maths?

LOLxumadbro

Currently running Dual sharpened dagger on my Magblade and it's very good.

Evil_Rurouni

OK, I'll ask in here rather than clutter up the forum with another thread.

Which DW passives will actually benefit a PvE mag DPS?

Twin blade and blunt is a no-brainer, being why DW's potentially making a return.
Controlled fury will clearly be pointless since its only offering cost reduction to abilities mag won't be using.

But will the rest help DW light attacks at least?
Or is DW still only about that one passive as far as mag is concerned?

Bodycounter

Evil_Rurouni wrote: »

Which DW passives will actually benefit a PvE mag DPS?

Twin blade and blunt is a no-brainer, being why DW's potentially making a return.
Controlled fury will clearly be pointless since its only offering cost reduction to abilities mag won't be using.

But will the rest help DW light attacks at least?
Or is DW still only about that one passive as far as mag is concerned?

It's only the passive you mentioned: Twin Blade and Blunt. The rest is pretty much useless for magicka DPS. Light and heavy attacks always scale from your highest ressources so light attack weaving with dual wield is still strong on magicka classes.

The main problem are the passives attached to the destruction staff skill line. Fire destruction staff is the only competitive option (outside solo or trash fights) left for magicka DPS and there is not a single bonus to crit chance, crit damage, maximum magicka or spell damage. Even the 10% magic penetration is pretty much useless since light armor classes can cap pretty easily now.