Argonian Resistance broken. No Disease\Poison resistance

Dr_Ganknstein

Like the title says. Please fix.

Arrodisia

This change really didn't make much sense along with a couple other changes. However, they won't change it or anything else until a large crowd complains and the wheel becomes squeeky.

Sekt_Tiberlus

Argonians actually need to be buffed totally. Stop nerfing them.

TwinLamps

Healer race gets stamina and orcs get spell damage.
Facepalm-Facepalm-Facepalm

Tommy_The_Gun

So, despite feedback & testing on PTS, it went to live server bugged...

I mean, this year-long story will be for the most part Argonian - themed right ? And not only they nerfed them (when literally everyone, even non-Argonian mains were saying that they need a buff), but also they left it bugged like that ? Kinda sad. Wonder if it ever gets adressed or we will have to wait another 2 years for another nerf...

On a positive note, we can save 2 skill points

ZOS_GinaBruno

We're double checking on our end but in the meantime, can you confirm you're seeing this in combat or through the Advanced Stats UI?

CyberOnEso

Not trying to be a ***, but have you definitely put points into the passive.

As it works for Nord's frost resistance and I imagine it's basically a cut and paste to/ from argonian.

Dr_Ganknstein

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

So, despite feedback & testing on PTS, it went to live server bugged...

I mean, this year-long story will be for the most part Argonian - themed right ? And not only they nerfed them (when literally everyone, even non-Argonian mains were saying that they need a buff), but also they left it bugged like that ? Kinda sad. Wonder if it ever gets adressed or we will have to wait another 2 years for another nerf...

On a positive note, we can save 2 skill points

I'm seeing it in the advanced UI.

ZOS_GinaBruno

Just to follow up, as far as we can tell this is working while in-combat, but the values are bugged in the Advanced Stats UI. We're working on getting this part fixed.

MakoRuu

Hashtag Buff Argonians

Dr_Ganknstein

CyberOnEso wrote: »

Not trying to be a ***, but have you definitely put points into the passive.

As it works for Nord's frost resistance and I imagine it's basically a cut and paste to/ from argonian.

lol yes multiple times on live and PTS.

NotaDaedraWorshipper

TwinLamps wrote: »

Healer race gets stamina and orcs get spell damage.
Facepalm-Facepalm-Facepalm

Argonians aren't a healer race. They have always been a very versatile race but with certain focus on things that shows their skill for guerrilla fighting. Stamina actually makes perfect sense for them. The whole spell damage for orcs is weird though, same as the stamina thing was for high elves in a previous patch.

TwinLamps

Tell my Saxhleel medic he aint a healer.

Athan1

TwinLamps wrote: »

Healer race gets stamina and orcs get spell damage.
Facepalm-Facepalm-Facepalm

Argonians are better suited as tanks rather than healers. Orcs were forced into stamina, and Altmers were forced into magicka, now they have more options. Both decisions make sense.

Sergykid

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Just to follow up, as far as we can tell this is working while in-combat, but the values are bugged in the Advanced Stats UI. We're working on getting this part fixed.

the Fighting Finesse star (+10% crit dmg) is also not shown in the stats sheet with the star either slotted or not. I have 50% spell crit dmg with the star or without it. And the bonuses category shows +0% either with it slotted or not.

Ratzkifal

Athan1 wrote: »

TwinLamps wrote: »

Healer race gets stamina and orcs get spell damage.
Facepalm-Facepalm-Facepalm

Argonians are better suited as tanks rather than healers. Orcs were forced into stamina, and Altmers were forced into magicka, now they have more options. Both decisions make sense.

@Athan1 With the new base stats the Argonian healing done bonus is actually higher than Altmer, Orc or Dunmer spell damage. I'd say now they can actually be considered a proper healing race thanks to their combined sustain and healing power.

But I think @NotaDaedraWorshipper was talking more about how Argonians were never really restoration focused previously. Skyrim was the first game where they got a bonus to that and had that self-healing ability. Self-healing doesn't really make you a healer though. There is a bit of a thematic disconnect between ESO Argonians and Argonians from the previous games.
I agree that Argonians are described to be more of a versatile race with strong ties to magic and stealth, but also spears and other martial weapons, and so I feel that the stamina bonus is very appropriate.
It also helps Argonian tanks, because you always want to have more max stamina than magicka (at least when using a shield) so that synergies restore stamina and not magicka. The magicka bonus could potentially force you to invest more into stamina to offset your racial bonus to magicka, which needs to come from somewhere and often results in you having to give up some health for it. With both values being equal this issue isn't a problem.

YandereGirlfriend

Argonians are still nerfed "power-budget"-wise since the increase in % Healing Done mods from +2% to +4%.

The Argonian racial passive was never buffed to keep pace with that change and is now only 1.5x of a single-line % Healing Done bonus rather than 3x that it was intended as.

Argonians should have a +12% to Healing Done as per "power budget" rules.

Ratzkifal

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Argonians are still nerfed "power-budget"-wise since the increase in % Healing Done mods from +2% to +4%.

The Argonian racial passive was never buffed to keep pace with that change and is now only 1.5x of a single-line % Healing Done bonus rather than 3x that it was intended as.

Argonians should have a +12% to Healing Done as per "power budget" rules.

@YandereGirlfriend The relative value of 4% healing done has changed again this update. It is now more valuable than it was before due to the 1000 base spell damage everyone receives, which makes the break-even point of 4% healing done and 129 spell damage more realistically achievable.
You need 2500 spell damage for 4% healing done to do more than 129 spell damage for your healing done. Calculated onto the racial set bonus budget that is 6% healing done vs 258 spell damage, which gives us 3333 spell damage as the breakeven point.
With only a golden weapon, 1000 base spell damage, major sorcery and major courage you can reach this break-even point already. If minor sorcery, minor courage and additional spell damage boni from jewelry, CP, mundus stones etc are present then the Argonian healing done bonus becomes quickly more valuable than the Altmer bonus when talking about healing.

So, essentially, the old power budget standards are outdated and everything needs to be reevaluated now before we can determine what the actual power budgets of the races are and if Argonians are mathematically within the budget or not.

YandereGirlfriend

Ratzkifal wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Argonians are still nerfed "power-budget"-wise since the increase in % Healing Done mods from +2% to +4%.

The Argonian racial passive was never buffed to keep pace with that change and is now only 1.5x of a single-line % Healing Done bonus rather than 3x that it was intended as.

Argonians should have a +12% to Healing Done as per "power budget" rules.

@YandereGirlfriend The relative value of 4% healing done has changed again this update. It is now more valuable than it was before due to the 1000 base spell damage everyone receives, which makes the break-even point of 4% healing done and 129 spell damage more realistically achievable.
You need 2500 spell damage for 4% healing done to do more than 129 spell damage for your healing done. Calculated onto the racial set bonus budget that is 6% healing done vs 258 spell damage, which gives us 3333 spell damage as the breakeven point.
With only a golden weapon, 1000 base spell damage, major sorcery and major courage you can reach this break-even point already. If minor sorcery, minor courage and additional spell damage boni from jewelry, CP, mundus stones etc are present then the Argonian healing done bonus becomes quickly more valuable than the Altmer bonus when talking about healing.

So, essentially, the old power budget standards are outdated and everything needs to be reevaluated now before we can determine what the actual power budgets of the races are and if Argonians are mathematically within the budget or not.

Right, but that only tells part of the story.

Consider for the Altmer that 258 Weapon/Spell Damage is far more universally useful than 6% Healing Done since you can fulfill two of the three ESO roles with it - damage and healing. It's the same reason why Max Stat bonuses are less directly useful for dealing damage than Weapon/Spell Damage because Max Stats have the dual purpose of also assisting with sustain.

So while an Argonian might be able to overtake the Altmer in healing... that should be a forgone conclusion since their bonus only applies to healing - theirs is single purpose and thus ought to be much stronger. It was only a cruel irony under the previous patches where Altmer would make stronger healers than Argonians despite Argonians having the only dedicated % Healing Done buff. That spoke to gross imbalance rather than the way things ought to be.

There is also the consideration of your introducing outside balancing elements into the discussion. All of the other racial bonuses, at least in the eyes of those doing the balancing, stand alone and apart from group buffs and other global stats. All of the sustain races, for example, were relatively under-powered during the high-sustain era that we just exited, yet those outside considerations seemed to be irrelevant to the intrinsic value of their racial bonuses. ZOS seemingly accounts for the fact that some players venture only as soloist and would thus not be able to stack both Major and Minor sustain buffs (let alone account for Worms or Hollowfang, etc.). For those solo players, having 258 additional sustain is valuable in a way that it is not for an optimized member of a trials team. Ditto for the fact that 258 Weapon Damage scales better than 258 Spell Damage yet Spell Damage is not adjusted upward in racial bonuses to account for this fact.

TLDR; I do agree that the relative one-piece bonuses need to reevaluated though and that could well inform how the Argonian bonus is tuned. But I think it is unfair to Argonians to hold only their bonus to a standard (e.g. accounting for outside balance considerations) that none of the other bonuses are held to. That seems guaranteed to ensure that Argonians are left behind again.