Devs want to nerf damage more, why this is bad

valyink

The devs have made comments in notes that they intended for damage to be nerfed by 15-20% percent in FoA. They seemed to have failed at.meeting this mark. They have also stated they might look to decrease damage more in future patches. While I'm not opposed to this per se, they need to seriously consider and test things before doing so. A damage nerf of 15-20% would kill most teams doing navii hm portals, very few teams clear those with a 15-20% time buffer. If this nerf happened, godslayer on consoles would also become an impossibility. Only 2 teams to date have cleared godslayer on ps4 na, and only with a minute left to spare. A damage nerf like this would make it relatively impossible on console unless we were given things such as dressing room worked into the game to allowed for dedicated trash and boss setups. I'd guess dawnbringer would also become almost impossible on console. If they nerf damage as much as they have stated to want to, encounters need reworked or console needs more tools. I doubt their teams even test things like trials hms or else the penetration bug on pts would have been caught much earlier. If you're going.to.nerf damage, you need to take into account if it's possible to clear content in all parts of the community, not just pc.

PaddyVu

valyink wrote: »

The devs have made comments in notes that they intended for damage to be nerfed by 15-20% percent in FoA. They seemed to have failed at.meeting this mark. They have also stated they might look to decrease damage more in future patches. While I'm not opposed to this per se, they need to seriously consider and test things before doing so. A damage nerf of 15-20% would kill most teams doing navii hm portals, very few teams clear those with a 15-20% time buffer. If this nerf happened, godslayer on consoles would also become an impossibility. Only 2 teams to date have cleared godslayer on ps4 na, and only with a minute left to spare. A damage nerf like this would make it relatively impossible on console unless we were given things such as dressing room worked into the game to allowed for dedicated trash and boss setups. I'd guess dawnbringer would also become almost impossible on console. If they nerf damage as much as they have stated to want to, encounters need reworked or console needs more tools. I doubt their teams even test things like trials hms or else the penetration bug on pts would have been caught much earlier. If you're going.to.nerf damage, you need to take into account if it's possible to clear content in all parts of the community, not just pc.

Wait till companion release, they will add like 30% more dmg to your dps ( hope so )

valyink

PaddyVu wrote: »

valyink wrote: »

The devs have made comments in notes that they intended for damage to be nerfed by 15-20% percent in FoA. They seemed to have failed at.meeting this mark. They have also stated they might look to decrease damage more in future patches. While I'm not opposed to this per se, they need to seriously consider and test things before doing so. A damage nerf of 15-20% would kill most teams doing navii hm portals, very few teams clear those with a 15-20% time buffer. If this nerf happened, godslayer on consoles would also become an impossibility. Only 2 teams to date have cleared godslayer on ps4 na, and only with a minute left to spare. A damage nerf like this would make it relatively impossible on console unless we were given things such as dressing room worked into the game to allowed for dedicated trash and boss setups. I'd guess dawnbringer would also become almost impossible on console. If they nerf damage as much as they have stated to want to, encounters need reworked or console needs more tools. I doubt their teams even test things like trials hms or else the penetration bug on pts would have been caught much earlier. If you're going.to.nerf damage, you need to take into account if it's possible to clear content in all parts of the community, not just pc.

Wait till companion release, they will add like 30% more dmg to your dps ( hope so )

We already have game.breaking bugs, 12 more npcs in trials seems.like a nightmare tbh

Grandchamp1989

For me I think they're looking at it the wrong way.

Instead of nerfing the players every other patch, only to release another broken mythic item to earn the dough.. only to nerf everything again..

They should put in better counter measures in their content to avoid skipping mechs.

They put a lot of thought into dungeon mechs and I'm sure it must be annoying to have certain groups outright skip it because of deeps.

In the current state playing the same Dungeon or Trial at the mediocre level and on a high level is literally like playing two different games. They're not comparable at all.
Tank vSG with group damage of 20k and then with 120k and you'll quickly understand. That goes for pretty most dungeons.

Moonhunter Keep HM and Icereach HM were clever they punished you for overburning. You'd either drown in werewolf adds or in case of Icereach you'd overlap phases if you focused too much on only burning the boss.

Moongrave first boss is also a clever boss, it will have immunity phases that force you to deal with the mechs to restart the fight.

There's absolutely ways to force the playerbase into doing mechs other than "Nerf nerf nerf - here's a broken new item - nerf nerf nerf"

If they took some of the effort to give the dungeons and trials a 2nd look I think it would be much more productive. While they're at it they can make healers more prevelant.

valyink

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

For me I think they're looking at it the wrong way.

Instead of nerfing the players every other patch, only to release another broken mythic item to earn the dough.. only to nerf everything again..

They should put in better counter measures in their content to avoid skipping mechs.

They put a lot of thought into dungeon mechs and I'm sure it must be annoying to have certain groups outright skip it because of deeps.

In the current state playing the same Dungeon or Trial at the mediocre level and on a high level is literally like playing two different games. They're not comparable at all.
Tank vSG with group damage of 20k and then with 120k and you'll quickly understand. That goes for pretty most dungeons.

Moonhunter Keep HM and Icereach HM were clever they punished you for overburning. You'd either drown in werewolf adds or in case of Icereach you'd overlap phases if you focused too much on only burning the boss.

Moongrave first boss is also a clever boss, it will have immunity phases that force you to deal with the mechs to restart the fight.

There's absolutely ways to force the playerbase into doing mechs other than "Nerf nerf nerf - here's a broken new item - nerf nerf nerf"

If they took some of the effort to give the dungeons and trials a 2nd look I think it would be much more productive. While they're at it they can make healers more prevelant.

This 100. If they don't want us to overburn things, there are other ways to do.so.other than just nerfing damage. Make silence more.prevalent difficult to avoid/ get rid of. Make healers more relevant buy adding more mechanics like baneful into places. Make portions of fights and bosses invulnerable until certain team mechanics are completed. This would make the game more interesting and combat healthier than just nerfing damage or.making bosses have stupid amounts of health like in vka hm

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe

Every time they swing their giant nerf hammer, it's always the mid tier teams and prog groups and average players who get hit the worst. "Lower the ceiling and raise the floor".... sure! There's just nothing in between anymore because what were mid tier players got sent to the bottom! They need to STOP balancing the game around the top 5%. As others have suggested, if damage being too high is a concern, then create mechanics that either punish for too high of burn due to complexities, or have invulnerability phases that force you to do mechs, etc. Punishing players though for just trying to become as skilled at the game as they can be is cruel and unnecessary.

Luke_Flamesword

We already have game.breaking bugs, 12 more npcs in trials seems.like a nightmare tbh

Companions will use player slot, so you will use them instead a player (for example when someone left and you don't want to wait for someone else).

ZOS have statistics how many players achieve different things so I can imagine that if there will be almost noone able to complete some content, then they will nerf content itself. Do you really believe that they will keep too hard things just to annoy people?

spartaxoxo

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Every time they swing their giant nerf hammer, it's always the mid tier teams and prog groups and average players who get hit the worst. "Lower the ceiling and raise the floor".... sure! There's just nothing in between anymore because what were mid tier players got sent to the bottom! They need to STOP balancing the game around the top 5%. As others have suggested, if damage being too high is a concern, then create mechanics that either punish for too high of burn due to complexities, or have invulnerability phases that force you to do mechs, etc. Punishing players though for just trying to become as skilled at the game as they can be is cruel and unnecessary.

They keep introducing mechanics that do the opposite and instead of punishing players for burning too quickly so that they are forced to deal with some mechancis, they punish players for burning too slowly. Meaning that players that actually do know the mechanics so well that they don't need to overburn end up being unable to complete the content purely because they have the wrong gear and rotation. Meanwhile players that have the right gear often minimize or skip mechanics entirely! Sometimes they'll be so unaware that it's something that has to be managed because they can effortless manage it, that they downplay or even leave it off guides!

Like the first boss in Vet VKA has a lot of lightning that ramps up in damage during his back 50%. None of the videos of high end groups I have seen play any differently to accommodate this, but in a group of players I was with that had lower dps, it took a lot of tweaking and figuring out precisely how to stand to eventually overcome this. Because it's absolutely a mechanic that requires a LOT of management if you're not able to burn him fast.

Rather than doing stuff like that to increase difficulty, which is only punishing people for not having the right gear, they should just do more stuff that isn't skippable so everyone is actually required to put the same thought into the mechanics of the dungeon itself. High end players would still be rewarded for being good because they'd get less of them.

IneedaDollar

Honestly burning bosses and skipping mechanics is bad but damage stops or punishing players for doing good damage would be even worse.
The whole fun of playing DD ist to push DPS and if a mechanic disrupts the damage flow it's always frustrating.

Morgha_Kul

I don't think damage needs to be nerfed across the board... I think the top end needs to be brought down some. Right now, there's a HUGE discrepancy between the low and average dps and the top end... which leads to trivialized content in the world, and excessively strong content in dungeons and the like.

Players with high dps can't enjoy the world of the game because everything is trivial.
Players with lower dps can't enjoy the dungeons because they can't do enough (or survive enough) damage.

It extends into pvp, where people with lower or average dps simply can't compete.

The curve needs to be flattened a bit. It needs to be harder to increase dps the more dps you have. The same is true of defenses. Diminishing returns.

valyink

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

I don't think damage needs to be nerfed across the board... I think the top end needs to be brought down some. Right now, there's a HUGE discrepancy between the low and average dps and the top end... which leads to trivialized content in the world, and excessively strong content in dungeons and the like.

Players with high dps can't enjoy the world of the game because everything is trivial.
Players with lower dps can't enjoy the dungeons because they can't do enough (or survive enough) damage.

It extends into pvp, where people with lower or average dps simply can't compete.

The curve needs to be flattened a bit. It needs to be harder to increase dps the more dps you have. The same is true of defenses. Diminishing returns.

I.sort of agree and disagree. The game does a terrible job explaining it's core combat mechanics which I think holds many new players back don't invest time into researching how improve. Like I don't think taunt is explained.anywhere in the game, other than skill descriptions. Global cool down is never explained. However players that have the correct gear sets and a basic knowledge of how tomdoma.rotation generally can complete all content, and people the benefit you get from perfecting said rotations and weaving seems reasonable to me.

Sanguinor2

I said it in another thread already but the reason for this giant dps gap is not player skill/better LA ratio/better debuff uptime/buff uptime from support roles etc.
The reason is that the bottom does not know how combat works at all. They likely dont use 5 piece sets, dont have max resources into stam/mag for damage but instead in health, might wear heavy armor, a mix of stam and mag morphs, wrong weapon traits, too much in sustain, no real rotation, probably dont even use all ability slots if they use abilities at all and the list goes on, but you get the idea.
If they really want to close the gap then the most impactful way of doing it would be to somehow teach the bottom how dps works. That an ability that costs mag generally scales with max mag and spell damage etc for example as well as the importance of having access to some buffs like brutality/sorcery and some level of penetration.

A bit of an unrelated note towards high dps players skipping mechanics to such a degree that they dont even know some. If you really want to see this happening take a high end trial group into vmol to do dromathra destroyer. 80% of the group will not know what a lunar phase is besides a thing that you skip and how it works. Hillarious every time.

QuebraRegra

Luke_Flamesword wrote: »

We already have game.breaking bugs, 12 more npcs in trials seems.like a nightmare tbh

Companions will use player slot, so you will use them instead a player (for example when someone left and you don't want to wait for someone else).

ZOS have statistics how many players achieve different things so I can imagine that if there will be almost noone able to complete some content, then they will nerf content itself. Do you really believe that they will keep too hard things just to annoy people?

oh heck no! Say this isn't so? So some goofy NPC that doesn';t know roles or mechanics will now fill slots for dungeons, etc.!?!?

Hmm, time to put this game down for a bit

Hapexamendios

I stopped playing with Nerfs a long time ago. The developers should too.

tmbrinks

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

I don't think damage needs to be nerfed across the board... I think the top end needs to be brought down some. Right now, there's a HUGE discrepancy between the low and average dps and the top end... which leads to trivialized content in the world, and excessively strong content in dungeons and the like.

Players with high dps can't enjoy the world of the game because everything is trivial.
Players with lower dps can't enjoy the dungeons because they can't do enough (or survive enough) damage.

It extends into pvp, where people with lower or average dps simply can't compete.

The curve needs to be flattened a bit. It needs to be harder to increase dps the more dps you have. The same is true of defenses. Diminishing returns.

That's exactly what's happening.

A content creator did some parses on Live and on PTS.

Stamplar
No-CP LIVE = 55k
No-CP PTS = 75k

Max CP Live = 110k
Max CP PTS = 100k

The top got brought down. The bottom got a HUGE boost.

Recremen

I love the ZOS team but some of these changes really are curious sometimes.

"We noticed that there's a big delta in damage output between players and we've taken steps to reduce it this patch."

"Oh cool, so it will now be easier for lower-skilled players to complete content?"

"Goodness no, definitely not."

"Huh? Why's that? What did you d-"

"We reduced damage across the board by 15-20%".

"You WHAT"

"The damage. We made it harder to do for everyone."

"WHY!?"

"Well the content was too easy, people were skipping mechanics."

"How many?"

"Twelve."

"Just twelve-thousand players?"

"No. Twelve. The number."

"JESUS DI- ... and how many vet dungeons are now getting started without the last boss getting defeated?"

*runs some business intelligence quieries*

"Twenty thousand a day."

📉

PaddyVu

Luke_Flamesword wrote: »

We already have game.breaking bugs, 12 more npcs in trials seems.like a nightmare tbh

Companions will use player slot, so you will use them instead a player (for example when someone left and you don't want to wait for someone else).

ZOS have statistics how many players achieve different things so I can imagine that if there will be almost noone able to complete some content, then they will nerf content itself. Do you really believe that they will keep too hard things just to annoy people?

Nice, now i can solo trial like nCR, NPC will go to portal and clear for me