Why is PVP balance being ignored?

Parasaurolophus

I think it makes no sense to describe all the problems in PVP. About how bad the gameplay is with Malacath and procsets, how wardens and necromancers are superior to all other classes, about heavy armor... All this has been written here for a long time. But why does nothing change? It seems like ZoS is deliberately ignoring balance in pvp. Why? Is it so unprofitable? Could it be that Cyro's terrible lags are to blame? Maybe because the combat team has been reworking CP for 2 years?

Girl_Number8

PvP never really had balance, just people that cannot handle their characters dying in a video game. Though you’re able to revive and play again and again, so all is good.

If you enjoy playing a game play it, if not then play or do something else. No one is forcing you to play eso.

Sangwyne

Are you kidding me? PvP is literally the metric by which the entire rest of the game is being measured and balanced. Tanks and healers have been being gutted for years so that PvP players weren't inconvenienced slightly, there are dozens of nerfs to Heavy armor and tanks alone this upcoming patch just to satisfy PvP concerns, multiple sets like Seventh Legion, Clever Alchemist and Stygian that were nerfed because PvP players abused them to nova from stealth, and there's even a post on the forums right now asking for a nerf to CHAINS of all things, with its limited range, zero and a half damage, and inability to affect people immune to CC, in PvP where people constantly have CC immunity, because a Sorc player didn't like that their busted get-out-of-jail-free card had an incredibly weak counter.

Wing

CP might have something to do with it, as thats also prolly why we didnt get a class or skill line this year, im sure they were all hands on deck with CP balance such as it is.

and to be fair, i think the cp overhaul is more important and im glad to see it finally implemented.

that being said something Wheeler mentioned while they were talking about the CP system was they had to CONSTANTLY talk with the content design team to make sure they didnt ruin any PvE stuff.

now while that is important, the way it was stated and mentioned multiple time leads me to believe that combat and balance changes do in fact play second fiddle to another team, in this case probably the content team.

so i think the balance team probably struggles to make impactful changes to the game period, let alone for pvp that is essentially a niche sub set of balance.

anyone who has PvP'd for more then a week can look around and see that certain things are BS and need to change.

but the other half is lag, they are designing changes around performance and not a specific goal for where they want the pvp gameplay experience to be.



TLDR actual pvp combat balance is stuck under several other groups and priorities within the company and within the game.

milllaurie

Sangwyne wrote: »

Are you kidding me? PvP is literally the metric by which the entire rest of the game is being measured and balanced. Tanks and healers have been being gutted for years so that PvP players weren't inconvenienced slightly, there are dozens of nerfs to Heavy armor and tanks alone this upcoming patch just to satisfy PvP concerns, multiple sets like Seventh Legion, Clever Alchemist and Stygian that were nerfed because PvP players abused them to nova from stealth, and there's even a post on the forums right now asking for a nerf to CHAINS of all things, with its limited range, zero and a half damage, and inability to affect people immune to CC, in PvP where people constantly have CC immunity, because a Sorc player didn't like that their busted get-out-of-jail-free card had an incredibly weak counter.

Really? Or was it pve score pushers who are responsible for abusing these sets?

Faded

The CP re-work was a big project. Homogenizing the classes for heals and tanking on every class was a big project. They're changing basics of armor and weaponry. And at the moment they're conducting tests for performance impact and behavior adjustment, or something.

PVP balance is probably on their list. It's a long list.

Wing

Sangwyne wrote: »

Are you kidding me? PvP is literally the metric by which the entire rest of the game is being measured and balanced. Tanks and healers have been being gutted for years so that PvP players weren't inconvenienced slightly, there are dozens of nerfs to Heavy armor and tanks alone this upcoming patch just to satisfy PvP concerns, multiple sets like Seventh Legion, Clever Alchemist and Stygian that were nerfed because PvP players abused them to nova from stealth, and there's even a post on the forums right now asking for a nerf to CHAINS of all things, with its limited range, zero and a half damage, and inability to affect people immune to CC, in PvP where people constantly have CC immunity, because a Sorc player didn't like that their busted get-out-of-jail-free card had an incredibly weak counter.

not true, set changes and nerfs have been due to trials of all things, i didnt even think that group of players was even large enough to balance around, also rip new moon because of trials too.

Grandchamp1989

Faded wrote: »

The CP re-work was a big project. Homogenizing the classes for heals and tanking on every class was a big project. They're changing basics of armor and weaponry. And at the moment they're conducting tests for performance impact and behavior adjustment, or something.

PVP balance is probably on their list. It's a long list.

Why would a respond to scorepushers be to have Tanks take more magical damage than Physical damage XDD

Why would a respond to scorepusher be a solution that says Light armor is advantageous vs heavy armor, and heavy armor is advantageous vs medium armor if not for PVP reasons? It's not like I try to hit my DDs when I group for dungeons lmfaoo It's litereally the devs trying to create counter plays in PvP zones.

Faded

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

Faded wrote: »

The CP re-work was a big project. Homogenizing the classes for heals and tanking on every class was a big project. They're changing basics of armor and weaponry. And at the moment they're conducting tests for performance impact and behavior adjustment, or something.

PVP balance is probably on their list. It's a long list.

Why would a respond to scorepushers be to have Tanks take more magical damage than Physical damage XDD

Why would a respond to scorepusher be a solution that says Light armor is advantageous vs heavy armor, and heavy armor is advantageous vs medium armor if not for PVP reasons? It's not like I try to hit my DDs when I group for dungeons lmfaoo It's litereally the devs trying to create counter plays in PvP zones.

You missed.

I'm also a magblade main who PVPs and has been around for years. You'll find me completely unsympathetic to the argument "balance" decisions are all about PVP. They aren't and never have been.

Grandchamp1989

Faded wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

Faded wrote: »

The CP re-work was a big project. Homogenizing the classes for heals and tanking on every class was a big project. They're changing basics of armor and weaponry. And at the moment they're conducting tests for performance impact and behavior adjustment, or something.

PVP balance is probably on their list. It's a long list.

Why would a respond to scorepushers be to have Tanks take more magical damage than Physical damage XDD

Why would a respond to scorepusher be a solution that says Light armor is advantageous vs heavy armor, and heavy armor is advantageous vs medium armor if not for PVP reasons? It's not like I try to hit my DDs when I group for dungeons lmfaoo It's litereally the devs trying to create counter plays in PvP zones.

You missed.

I'm also a magblade main who PVPs and has been around for years. You'll find me completely unsympathetic to the argument "balance" decisions are all about PVP. They aren't and never have been.

I know it's not what you want to hear mate, but it's literally you guys salt mine that's slowly destroying the game.
But by all means lets have some more threads about nerfing whatever killed you this week.

Sylosi

Redacted.

AMeanOne

Sangwyne wrote: »

Are you kidding me? PvP is literally the metric by which the entire rest of the game is being measured and balanced. Tanks and healers have been being gutted for years so that PvP players weren't inconvenienced slightly, there are dozens of nerfs to Heavy armor and tanks alone this upcoming patch just to satisfy PvP concerns, multiple sets like Seventh Legion, Clever Alchemist and Stygian that were nerfed because PvP players abused them to nova from stealth, and there's even a post on the forums right now asking for a nerf to CHAINS of all things, with its limited range, zero and a half damage, and inability to affect people immune to CC, in PvP where people constantly have CC immunity, because a Sorc player didn't like that their busted get-out-of-jail-free card had an incredibly weak counter.

Ooof. Those sets were nerfed because of pve score pushers, not pvp. Crit chance has now been nerfed so low that malacath is a no brainer on any build in pvp, thanks to crit being the pve meta. That's just two things from this update alone that are pve driven nerfs. Open your eyes, nerfs come from both sides of the fence

Sangwyne

milllaurie wrote: »

Really? Or was it pve score pushers who are responsible for abusing these sets?

AMeanOne wrote: »

Ooof. Those sets were nerfed because of pve score pushers, not pvp.

Pretty sure it was PvP. But don't take my word for it, read the actual developers':

Clever Alchemist: This item set’s proc now requires that you are in combat for it to function.
Developer Comments: This solves the issue where some players would activate their potion with this item set, then completely switch their gear to a new item set while retaining the bonus. We want this item set to be used more strategically in the middle of combat, rather than it only being used to one-shot players from stealth.

Could be wrong, but I don't know of any score pushers looking to one-shot players from stealth. According to ZOS, the set was "only being used" in PvP, it had absolutely nothing to do with trial groups in PvE. The issue is, PvP players somehow got it into their heads that "pre-buffing" was exclusively a thing that happens in trials by the extremely few top score groups that do actually utilize pre-buff sets to push score, conveniently forgetting that there were far more gankers, bombers, and other entire categories of players in PvP using the sets to nova players from stealth. ZOS listens to complaints, and hardly anyone was complaining about having to pre-buff for trials because hardly anyone outside of the very few top groups even bothered to USE them that way.

Wing wrote: »

not true, set changes and nerfs have been due to trials of all things, i didnt even think that group of players was even large enough to balance around, also rip new moon because of trials too.

You're absolutely right, that group of players WASN'T large enough to balance around! On the other hand, tons of people play PvP, many of whom WERE abusing those sets, and people complained because they thought it was unfair that they had no chance to react to incoming damage. I can guarantee you more people thought being one-shot was unfair than ever actually even entered those trials, let alone made their way into a top trial group that was using those sets.

caperb

Sangwyne wrote: »

Are you kidding me? PvP is literally the metric by which the entire rest of the game is being measured and balanced. Tanks and healers have been being gutted for years so that PvP players weren't inconvenienced slightly, there are dozens of nerfs to Heavy armor and tanks alone this upcoming patch just to satisfy PvP concerns, multiple sets like Seventh Legion, Clever Alchemist and Stygian that were nerfed because PvP players abused them to nova from stealth, and there's even a post on the forums right now asking for a nerf to CHAINS of all things, with its limited range, zero and a half damage, and inability to affect people immune to CC, in PvP where people constantly have CC immunity, because a Sorc player didn't like that their busted get-out-of-jail-free card had an incredibly weak counter.

[snip] It's ZOS buffing and nerfing stuff way too hard instead of fine balancing. Oh and believe me, PvP suffered a lot more nerfs than PvE has ever suffered. Thing is, a boss doesn't care about balance...

And the chains thread, the guy has a point that they are too cheap in PvP. But instead try to discuss the problem all you guys do is give him salt. Chains are not used to counter sorcs. Chains are used by faction stack zerglings to pull a player from a smaller group in their big zerg to bomb him. There is no counterplay to a chain spamming bot because the cost is free when the player pulled is immune.

Don't blame PvP for what ZOS does.

[Edited for Flaming]

AMeanOne

I'll give you clever alchemist, didn't realize you snuck it in there, it was nerfed long ago for pvp specifically because of PC addons. All I'm saying is look around, there are tons of nerfs that happen because of pve and vice versa.

BlueRaven

It is impossible to balance pvp.

Dedicated pvp games have complaints about balancing, years after release.
If there was a coin flipping game and someone parsed heads coming up 5001 times out of 10,000. There would be endless forum threads about the need to nerf “heads” and how “tails” needs a buff.

Everything that kills a player in pvp needs a nerf.
Every time a player fails to kill someone, they feel they need a buff.

It’s endless and it will never stop.

propertyOfUndefined

This is probably an unpopular opinion, but I’ll say it anyway... If you want perfectly balanced, skill-based pvp, there are plenty of games for that - e.g. counterstrike, fortnite, or MOBAs like dota and league. To me, the main appeal of RPGs (going all the way back to pen-and-paper AD&D) has always been trying to come up with creative builds that you can call your own. Pvp will never be perfectly balanced for that reason, but that’s what makes them so much fun. Just my 2 cents...

Pauwer

Stupid things like the ww atm are so overly unbalanced in pvp. When it takes 10 players to kill one ww for like 5 mins. That bothers me.

Otherwise, im not sure if i care about balance issues in pvp. It's just fun. I also try out different sets and skills all the time, i enjoy the character building. Pvp is meant to be fun. And it was wayyyyyy more fun before they nerfed all class skills, i forget which update it was.

Except the sorc. Nerf sorc.

LightYagami

Not only balance, they ignored the entire PvP community. Event PvP event tickets can be obtained by doing PvE tasks.

Sangwyne

AMeanOne wrote: »

I'll give you clever alchemist, didn't realize you snuck it in there, it was nerfed long ago for pvp specifically because of PC addons. All I'm saying is look around, there are tons of nerfs that happen because of pve and vice versa.

Agreed. Yet another reason the two sides of the game need to be balanced separately.

caperb wrote: »

Sangwyne wrote: »

Pretty sure it was PvP. But don't take my word for it, read the actual developers':

Clever Alchemist: This item set’s proc now requires that you are in combat for it to function.
Developer Comments: This solves the issue where some players would activate their potion with this item set, then completely switch their gear to a new item set while retaining the bonus. We want this item set to be used more strategically in the middle of combat, rather than it only being used to one-shot players from stealth.

[Quoted post was removed]

[snip]

BlueRaven wrote: »

It is impossible to balance pvp.

Dedicated pvp games have complaints about balancing, years after release.
If there was a coin flipping game and someone parsed heads coming up 5001 times out of 10,000. There would be endless forum threads about the need to nerf “heads” and how “tails” needs a buff.

Everything that kills a player in pvp needs a nerf.
Every time a player fails to kill someone, they feel they need a buff.

It’s endless and it will never stop.

Changing the meta in PvP can be fun, it spruces up the game, allows players to experiment with new builds, and breathes fresh air into a stale meta. Many other games have done similar changes in the past, where once-weak sets or strategies are buffed, builds that are overperforming are nerfed, and the entire game is turned on its head, and it works well as a way to bring in old enthusiasts and entice new ones into trying the game out. I just don't think that what's good for PvP is the same as what's good for PvE; the meta is entirely different there, and one item could be simultaneously deserving of a nerf for its performance in trials while desperately needing a buff to remain relevant in PvP.

LightYagami wrote: »

Not only balance, they ignored the entire PvP community. Event PvP event tickets can be obtained by doing PvE tasks.

We just had an event where tickets were obtained exclusively through PvP sources, and despite plenty of players complaining about having to do PvP, they will almost certainly keep it that way. PvE players in this game are far more prevalent, you should expect ZOS to cater towards their game's largest population, but they do throw PvP players a bone quite often, and balance is scrutinized there far more heavily than it is in PvE.

[Edited to remove Baiting]

amm7sb14_ESO

propertyOfUndefined wrote: »

This is probably an unpopular opinion, but I’ll say it anyway... If you want perfectly balanced, skill-based pvp, there are plenty of games for that - e.g. counterstrike, fortnite, or MOBAs like dota and league. To me, the main appeal of RPGs (going all the way back to pen-and-paper AD&D) has always been trying to come up with creative builds that you can call your own. Pvp will never be perfectly balanced for that reason, but that’s what makes them so much fun. Just my 2 cents...

It might be unpopular, but I agree with it. And it's exactly why I'll never play meta.

Massacre_Wurm

propertyOfUndefined wrote: »

This is probably an unpopular opinion, but I’ll say it anyway... If you want perfectly balanced, skill-based pvp, there are plenty of games for that - e.g. counterstrike, fortnite, or MOBAs like dota and league. To me, the main appeal of RPGs (going all the way back to pen-and-paper AD&D) has always been trying to come up with creative builds that you can call your own. Pvp will never be perfectly balanced for that reason, but that’s what makes them so much fun. Just my 2 cents...

Yep. Pretty much this. Perfect balance without total homogenization is impossible.

But funny ehough even in CS people are whining about unbalanced weapons and such.

MirandaSharp

The only way to have balance in PvP is everyone runs naked(or use exact same gear)... Even then some players will be infinitely better than others, and the mass of "losers" will complain!

Nezyr_Jezz

Balance is being ignored because pay to win classes are selling expansions. Literally.

Developers are keeping crappy skill design on classes such as magica nightblade, magica necromancer that are not even close to their stamina counterparts.

Bad design is not an excuse.

ZOS_ConnorG

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