Idea for making hybrid builds more viable

rauyran

Simple idea: make damage scale with the sum of magicka and stamina.

Why? It would open up a whole range of new build ideas that combine magicka and stamina skills. It would up to the player to decide how to balance the points between the two stats depending on the skills they want to run.

preevious

There would be a problem, with that. Hybrid builds would become superior to all others for the following reason :

..bear with me, it will surprise you ..

They'll have the same damage, but far more HP, and will thus survive incredibly easier.

Why do I bring HP here? Because of the --> tri-stats glyphs <--. If I use them, I effectivelly give 50% of the max possible to stam, 50% ofthe max possible to magicka, so, 50/50 ..all good ...except those glyphs also come with 50% for max health possible... bam, if you just heard an door, right now, it's because your balance just left the building.

So, yeah ..welcome to hybrids build online. Groups will not take you anymore unless you go hybrid. And I don't even dare to talk about PvP issues..

Hybrids are and SHOULD be less efficient. When you train everything, you master none.

Seraphayel

Skills really shouldn't scale by Magicka or Stamina, they should solely scale based on Weapon and Spell damage. Heavy attacks should restore the ressource that's lower and not either Magicka or Stamina. It's quite easy to "fix" this problem. Yet hybrids would still need to balance between Weapon and Spell damage, but they don't have to decide between Magicka and Stamina anymore.

Luke_Flamesword

Hybrids are and SHOULD be less efficient.

Why should be? With good mechanics design, that can be just another way of playing game with some strong and weak points. Balancing it can be hard, but theoretically is possible. I really want to see some day magicka, stamina and hybrid dd's as equal, viable choices.

Why do I bring HP here? Because of the --> tri-stats glyphs <--.

Erm... not? You can add tri-stats to armor only, so you have 7 slots which gives you 4k stamina/magicka. with tri-stat you have something like 2k for stamina, magicka and health. So you don't do much with this additional 2k health Difference is so little that even now some non-hybrid builds use partially or even full tri-stats to bump health a little, because this is not a big stamina/magicka lose.

Chilly-McFreeze

Seraphayel wrote: »

Skills really shouldn't scale by Magicka or Stamina, they should solely scale based on Weapon and Spell damage. Heavy attacks should restore the ressource that's lower and not either Magicka or Stamina. It's quite easy to "fix" this problem. Yet hybrids would still need to balance between Weapon and Spell damage, but they don't have to decide between Magicka and Stamina anymore.

With the 1000 free spell / weapon dmg coming up it's absurdly easy to reach high spell dmg on a not-even-build for it medium armor build. Don't even need pelinal's.

Issue remains crit chance, non-buff/debuff penetration and your mentioned resource pool influence on dmg. Everything else is better than it was in the past. Light/ heavy attacks scale with highest resource and crit dmg modifier got unified (as far as I can tell).

Just choose the right sets and you will be fine already. At least if you're not into leet score pushing or bis pvp builds.

preevious

Luke_Flamesword wrote: »

Hybrids are and SHOULD be less efficient.

Why should be? With good mechanics design, that can be just another way of playing game with some strong and weak points. Balancing it can be hard, but theoretically is possible. I really want to see some day magicka, stamina and hybrid dd's as equal, viable choices.

Why do I bring HP here? Because of the --> tri-stats glyphs <--.

Erm... not? You can add tri-stats to armor only, so you have 7 slots which gives you 4k stamina/magicka. with tri-stat you have something like 2k for stamina, magicka and health. So you don't do much with this additional 2k health Difference is so little that even now some non-hybrid builds use partially or even full tri-stats to bump health a little, because this is not a big stamina/magicka lose.

2385 more HP makes a big difference, in my opinion. Especially since they are free and exclusive to hybrids.
Your point about non-hybrid sacrifices is actually working in my favor .. the health bump is important enough to warrant a sacrifice. Now, with hybrid builds, you'd give the health bump without sacrificing anything.

And for your first question, I'd say : because it makes sense. What you gain in sustain, you gotta loose somewhere.
Why the heck would I play something other than hybrid, if not? Same damage, way better survival, way better sustain.

Hybrids are and SHOULD be less efficient ... at least, damage wise.

nqvarihs

can we stop with all this hybrid crap thats been ruining balance and class identity

Luke_Flamesword

It's still design problem and can be changed - we talk about hybrids from perspective of changing some mechanics to make it viable, but also fair to non-hybrid builds. Every advantage you can balance with adding some disadvantages, so everyghing can be made, but it need more complex solutions.

Miszou

Hybrid tanks exist.

But we're not talking about that playstyle are we....?

xaraan

I'm of the belief that hybrid builds should be close to how they are now: i.e. not based on damage.

First off, technically, all your abilities or most are arguably magical anyway even if it costs stam to cast them. Some stam skills definitely come off like pure weapon skills like uppercut or caltrops, but others like Fighters Guild circle and rapids and similar definitely feel more magical in nature.

Second, I don't think we should always be looking at hybrid as max damage from either type of cast, but using your off stat for utility as we do now. My stamden uses several magic skills that aren't damage but supply buffs to my character for defense or damage and expanding that for other classes could help.

And lastly, I think the weapon stats are the biggest factor. My magplar uses a greatsword just for the heck of it because I'm in melee jabbing anyhow. Changes to how that crits and hits for magicka/spell damage builds is welcome and the weapon type might change next patch depending on what bonuses different blades get, but it works. It's not as optimal just b/c on a long parse fight a fire staff is stronger, but on short burst fights like dungeons and questing it buffs both aoe and single target damage more than either a fire or lightning staff would individually, so it at least is passable for a lot of content. I'd like to see that ability to mix it up like that expanded and it looks like it might a little next patch.

But I don't think just buffing all damage to flat out scale and use any and everything at once at equal power is the answer.

Chilly-McFreeze

preevious wrote: »

Luke_Flamesword wrote: »

Hybrids are and SHOULD be less efficient.

Why should be? With good mechanics design, that can be just another way of playing game with some strong and weak points. Balancing it can be hard, but theoretically is possible. I really want to see some day magicka, stamina and hybrid dd's as equal, viable choices.

Why do I bring HP here? Because of the --> tri-stats glyphs <--.

Erm... not? You can add tri-stats to armor only, so you have 7 slots which gives you 4k stamina/magicka. with tri-stat you have something like 2k for stamina, magicka and health. So you don't do much with this additional 2k health Difference is so little that even now some non-hybrid builds use partially or even full tri-stats to bump health a little, because this is not a big stamina/magicka lose.

2385 more HP makes a big difference, in my opinion. Especially since they are free and exclusive to hybrids.
Your point about non-hybrid sacrifices is actually working in my favor .. the health bump is important enough to warrant a sacrifice. Now, with hybrid builds, you'd give the health bump without sacrificing anything.

And for your first question, I'd say : because it makes sense. What you gain in sustain, you gotta loose somewhere.
Why the heck would I play something other than hybrid, if not? Same damage, way better survival, way better sustain.

Hybrids are and SHOULD be less efficient ... at least, damage wise.

But you are making sacrifices. Most obvious ones are crit chance, penetration and dmg scaling resources (stam/mag, spell/wpn dmg) + the sets you're not wearing.
Not to mention that you probably can't buff up all your stats as easy as on a pure build. You need that tasty major sorcery & brutatlity + major prophecy & savagery. How many skills should I slot just to get those buffs and what am I not slotting instead?

But yes, if we wash the splitted stats (penetration, crit chance, res. pool influence) away, then it could get to the point where hybrid builds get close to pure builds. But what's the issue with that? On paper you don't sacrifice much by going pure build anyway, especially in group content. Atm nearly every ordinary buff is avaible to both resources or granted by team members.

However, if you aren't running solo I don't see the mechanical benefit of going hybrid anyway on most classes.
Sure, your magDK can get an execute, your stamsorc can set up a triple burst combo.

But then again, you're still sacrificing. To get my stats somewhere usable on my PvP hybridsorc I can forgot running Wild Hunt or pale order. To get both dmg buffs I either need Pelinal's or Surge. The latter is beside the buff rather inefficient bc my crit rates are low or it conflicts with Malacath's. Sure thing, power surge, but that is meh because <- poor crit rate again.

I think it's more complicated and, at least in part, an issue of different design philosophies.
IF I'd sacrifice anything by going pure build then I'd absolutely say that hybrids should be a good chunk below them. But as of now, what am I sacrificing. 2.3k health? No issue since I get 6.333 pure stam/mag vs. 3.319 stam + mag on hybrid. Can be mitigated. A bit of regen? WIth higher percentage buffs (eg via pots) those differences get diminished. Also a bigger pool let me keep on going for longer.

preevious

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

preevious wrote: »

Luke_Flamesword wrote: »

Hybrids are and SHOULD be less efficient.

Why should be? With good mechanics design, that can be just another way of playing game with some strong and weak points. Balancing it can be hard, but theoretically is possible. I really want to see some day magicka, stamina and hybrid dd's as equal, viable choices.

Why do I bring HP here? Because of the --> tri-stats glyphs <--.

Erm... not? You can add tri-stats to armor only, so you have 7 slots which gives you 4k stamina/magicka. with tri-stat you have something like 2k for stamina, magicka and health. So you don't do much with this additional 2k health Difference is so little that even now some non-hybrid builds use partially or even full tri-stats to bump health a little, because this is not a big stamina/magicka lose.

2385 more HP makes a big difference, in my opinion. Especially since they are free and exclusive to hybrids.
Your point about non-hybrid sacrifices is actually working in my favor .. the health bump is important enough to warrant a sacrifice. Now, with hybrid builds, you'd give the health bump without sacrificing anything.

And for your first question, I'd say : because it makes sense. What you gain in sustain, you gotta loose somewhere.
Why the heck would I play something other than hybrid, if not? Same damage, way better survival, way better sustain.

Hybrids are and SHOULD be less efficient ... at least, damage wise.

But you are making sacrifices. Most obvious ones are crit chance, penetration and dmg scaling resources (stam/mag, spell/wpn dmg) + the sets you're not wearing.
Not to mention that you probably can't buff up all your stats as easy as on a pure build. You need that tasty major sorcery & brutatlity + major prophecy & savagery. How many skills should I slot just to get those buffs and what am I not slotting instead?

But yes, if we wash the splitted stats (penetration, crit chance, res. pool influence) away, then it could get to the point where hybrid builds get close to pure builds. But what's the issue with that? On paper you don't sacrifice much by going pure build anyway, especially in group content. Atm nearly every ordinary buff is avaible to both resources or granted by team members.

However, if you aren't running solo I don't see the mechanical benefit of going hybrid anyway on most classes.
Sure, your magDK can get an execute, your stamsorc can set up a triple burst combo.

But then again, you're still sacrificing. To get my stats somewhere usable on my PvP hybridsorc I can forgot running Wild Hunt or pale order. To get both dmg buffs I either need Pelinal's or Surge. The latter is beside the buff rather inefficient bc my crit rates are low or it conflicts with Malacath's. Sure thing, power surge, but that is meh because <- poor crit rate again.

I think it's more complicated and, at least in part, an issue of different design philosophies.
IF I'd sacrifice anything by going pure build then I'd absolutely say that hybrids should be a good chunk below them. But as of now, what am I sacrificing. 2.3k health? No issue since I get 6.333 pure stam/mag vs. 3.319 stam + mag on hybrid. Can be mitigated. A bit of regen? WIth higher percentage buffs (eg via pots) those differences get diminished. Also a bigger pool let me keep on going for longer.

Err ... yes, but .. those sacrifice you mention are related to damage. I don't care if I have less crits or less power if my damage is the same as a pure build that have more of both.

The probleme here is that people want hybrid DD to do as much damage as specialized ones. The stats that brings that damage is irrelevant.

So, with more sustain and survivability, the only thing left to sacrifice is ..damage. It cannot get as much damage as a specialized build for balance reason. It'll always be the case.

So ..

Hybrids are and SHOULD be less efficient ... at least, damage wise.

Chilly-McFreeze

preevious wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

preevious wrote: »

Luke_Flamesword wrote: »

Hybrids are and SHOULD be less efficient.

Why should be? With good mechanics design, that can be just another way of playing game with some strong and weak points. Balancing it can be hard, but theoretically is possible. I really want to see some day magicka, stamina and hybrid dd's as equal, viable choices.

Why do I bring HP here? Because of the --> tri-stats glyphs <--.

Erm... not? You can add tri-stats to armor only, so you have 7 slots which gives you 4k stamina/magicka. with tri-stat you have something like 2k for stamina, magicka and health. So you don't do much with this additional 2k health Difference is so little that even now some non-hybrid builds use partially or even full tri-stats to bump health a little, because this is not a big stamina/magicka lose.

2385 more HP makes a big difference, in my opinion. Especially since they are free and exclusive to hybrids.
Your point about non-hybrid sacrifices is actually working in my favor .. the health bump is important enough to warrant a sacrifice. Now, with hybrid builds, you'd give the health bump without sacrificing anything.

And for your first question, I'd say : because it makes sense. What you gain in sustain, you gotta loose somewhere.
Why the heck would I play something other than hybrid, if not? Same damage, way better survival, way better sustain.

Hybrids are and SHOULD be less efficient ... at least, damage wise.

But you are making sacrifices. Most obvious ones are crit chance, penetration and dmg scaling resources (stam/mag, spell/wpn dmg) + the sets you're not wearing.
Not to mention that you probably can't buff up all your stats as easy as on a pure build. You need that tasty major sorcery & brutatlity + major prophecy & savagery. How many skills should I slot just to get those buffs and what am I not slotting instead?

But yes, if we wash the splitted stats (penetration, crit chance, res. pool influence) away, then it could get to the point where hybrid builds get close to pure builds. But what's the issue with that? On paper you don't sacrifice much by going pure build anyway, especially in group content. Atm nearly every ordinary buff is avaible to both resources or granted by team members.

However, if you aren't running solo I don't see the mechanical benefit of going hybrid anyway on most classes.
Sure, your magDK can get an execute, your stamsorc can set up a triple burst combo.

But then again, you're still sacrificing. To get my stats somewhere usable on my PvP hybridsorc I can forgot running Wild Hunt or pale order. To get both dmg buffs I either need Pelinal's or Surge. The latter is beside the buff rather inefficient bc my crit rates are low or it conflicts with Malacath's. Sure thing, power surge, but that is meh because <- poor crit rate again.

I think it's more complicated and, at least in part, an issue of different design philosophies.
IF I'd sacrifice anything by going pure build then I'd absolutely say that hybrids should be a good chunk below them. But as of now, what am I sacrificing. 2.3k health? No issue since I get 6.333 pure stam/mag vs. 3.319 stam + mag on hybrid. Can be mitigated. A bit of regen? WIth higher percentage buffs (eg via pots) those differences get diminished. Also a bigger pool let me keep on going for longer.

Err ... yes, but .. those sacrifice you mention are related to damage. I don't care if I have less crits or less power if my damage is the same as a pure build that have more of both.

The probleme here is that people want hybrid DD to do as much damage as specialized ones. The stats that brings that damage is irrelevant.

So, with more sustain and survivability, the only thing left to sacrifice is ..damage. It cannot get as much damage as a specialized build for balance reason. It'll always be the case.

So ..

Hybrids are and SHOULD be less efficient ... at least, damage wise.

Fair enough.

However, in the games current state (PTS), where do you see the benefit of going hybrid as a DD in e.g. PvE?

preevious

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

preevious wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

preevious wrote: »

Luke_Flamesword wrote: »

Hybrids are and SHOULD be less efficient.

Why should be? With good mechanics design, that can be just another way of playing game with some strong and weak points. Balancing it can be hard, but theoretically is possible. I really want to see some day magicka, stamina and hybrid dd's as equal, viable choices.

Why do I bring HP here? Because of the --> tri-stats glyphs <--.

Erm... not? You can add tri-stats to armor only, so you have 7 slots which gives you 4k stamina/magicka. with tri-stat you have something like 2k for stamina, magicka and health. So you don't do much with this additional 2k health Difference is so little that even now some non-hybrid builds use partially or even full tri-stats to bump health a little, because this is not a big stamina/magicka lose.

2385 more HP makes a big difference, in my opinion. Especially since they are free and exclusive to hybrids.
Your point about non-hybrid sacrifices is actually working in my favor .. the health bump is important enough to warrant a sacrifice. Now, with hybrid builds, you'd give the health bump without sacrificing anything.

And for your first question, I'd say : because it makes sense. What you gain in sustain, you gotta loose somewhere.
Why the heck would I play something other than hybrid, if not? Same damage, way better survival, way better sustain.

Hybrids are and SHOULD be less efficient ... at least, damage wise.

But you are making sacrifices. Most obvious ones are crit chance, penetration and dmg scaling resources (stam/mag, spell/wpn dmg) + the sets you're not wearing.
Not to mention that you probably can't buff up all your stats as easy as on a pure build. You need that tasty major sorcery & brutatlity + major prophecy & savagery. How many skills should I slot just to get those buffs and what am I not slotting instead?

But yes, if we wash the splitted stats (penetration, crit chance, res. pool influence) away, then it could get to the point where hybrid builds get close to pure builds. But what's the issue with that? On paper you don't sacrifice much by going pure build anyway, especially in group content. Atm nearly every ordinary buff is avaible to both resources or granted by team members.

However, if you aren't running solo I don't see the mechanical benefit of going hybrid anyway on most classes.
Sure, your magDK can get an execute, your stamsorc can set up a triple burst combo.

But then again, you're still sacrificing. To get my stats somewhere usable on my PvP hybridsorc I can forgot running Wild Hunt or pale order. To get both dmg buffs I either need Pelinal's or Surge. The latter is beside the buff rather inefficient bc my crit rates are low or it conflicts with Malacath's. Sure thing, power surge, but that is meh because <- poor crit rate again.

I think it's more complicated and, at least in part, an issue of different design philosophies.
IF I'd sacrifice anything by going pure build then I'd absolutely say that hybrids should be a good chunk below them. But as of now, what am I sacrificing. 2.3k health? No issue since I get 6.333 pure stam/mag vs. 3.319 stam + mag on hybrid. Can be mitigated. A bit of regen? WIth higher percentage buffs (eg via pots) those differences get diminished. Also a bigger pool let me keep on going for longer.

Err ... yes, but .. those sacrifice you mention are related to damage. I don't care if I have less crits or less power if my damage is the same as a pure build that have more of both.

The probleme here is that people want hybrid DD to do as much damage as specialized ones. The stats that brings that damage is irrelevant.

So, with more sustain and survivability, the only thing left to sacrifice is ..damage. It cannot get as much damage as a specialized build for balance reason. It'll always be the case.

So ..

Hybrids are and SHOULD be less efficient ... at least, damage wise.

Fair enough.

However, in the games current state (PTS), where do you see the benefit of going hybrid as a DD in e.g. PvE?

Very hard to take a guess ...

Well, since base WD and SP both gain a boost, I suppose hybrid builds will be a bit better, since stats are moving from cp to levelling, it'll hybridize things a bit..
I think they'll get closer to "a fair bit less damage (but more than currently), a fair bit more versability and sustain".

They'll still be subpar for competitive play, I reckon ... but they'll certainly be a bit more potent.
I can see them relatively usefull in midrange pve, solo arenas and PvP.