Inner Light and skill design flaws

Bodycounter

Is there any reason that Inner Light is still almost always necessary to be slotted but on the same time is just an unused skill in your bar? I think this is one of the worst skill designs in the game. There are other skills offering Major Prophecy especially class-based ones but none of them can compete with 7% additional maximum magicka. Since Inner Light offers no interesting active it has become a borderline boring skill to slot into your bar.

Another skill that missed its mark is Scalding Rune since it should have Minor Force attached to it. That way it would be the magicka variant of Barbed Trap in the Fighters Guild skill line.

TLDR: Having abilities in a game that only lets you slot 10+2 skills overall without any active function is really bad design and should have been changed long ago.

Seraphayel

Sorry to hijack your topic, but you brought up Scalding Rune - is its damage and DoT at least worth it now? Or still pretty useless?

Luckylancer

Japsplar dd front bar: 5 fighters guild skills + jabs. Only 3 skills are clicked 90% of time.

I think having some passive skills is good.

lolo_01b16_ESO

Why do you think it's bad? Noone is forcing you to use it.
If you want to use only a few very powerful skills, you slot some passive skills like mage light and if you want to use a lot of different skills, you just slot something else.

Bodycounter

Seraphayel wrote: »

Sorry to hijack your topic, but you brought up Scalding Rune - is its damage and DoT at least worth it now? Or still pretty useless?

Scalding Rune should be viable on a Dragonknight with Elf Bane but im not sure if its worth outside of that.

Luckylancer wrote: »

Japsplar dd front bar: 5 fighters guild skills + jabs. Only 3 skills are clicked 90% of time.
I think having some passive skills is good.

The term "passive skills" makes no sense. It should either be a skill or a passive. Yes, Inner Light has an active part but it's just gimmicky in PvE.

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

Why do you think it's bad? Noone is forcing you to use it.
If you want to use only a few very powerful skills, you slot some passive skills like mage light and if you want to use a lot of different skills, you just slot something else.

I think we both know that's not true. If you want to be competitive you have to slot Inner Light and just let it stay in your bar without ever being used in PvE. It's inherently bad game design when a passive that is attached to a skill is so powerful (+7% max magicka) that other active abilities cannot compete with it. Inner Light should at least be balanced with abilities like Inferno or Lotus Flower (which is stupidly undertuned for no reason).

So people are actually fine with 80% of your skills being passive and you only have to click like 2 buttons? Good to know.

WrathOfInnos

Bodycounter wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Sorry to hijack your topic, but you brought up Scalding Rune - is its damage and DoT at least worth it now? Or still pretty useless?

Scalding Rune should be viable on a Dragonknight with Elf Bane but im not sure if its worth outstide of that.

Luckylancer wrote: »

Japsplar dd front bar: 5 fighters guild skills + jabs. Only 3 skills are clicked 90% of time.
I think having some passive skills is good.

The term "passive skills" makes no sense. It should either be a skill or a passive.

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

Why do you think it's bad? Noone is forcing you to use it.
If you want to use only a few very powerful skills, you slot some passive skills like mage light and if you want to use a lot of different skills, you just slot something else.

I think we both know that's not true. If you want to be competitive you have to slot Inner Light and just let it stay in your bar without ever being used in PvE. It's inherently bad game design when a skill is better by just being unused in your bar than an ability that actually has to be used within your rotation, because the passive skill offers so many free stats.

So people are actually fine with 80% of your skills being passive and you only have to click like 2 buttons? Good to know.

I think these “passive skills” exist to help level DPS across all skill levels. Some players don’t want to keep up with a rotation of 10-11 active skills. The ability to slot Inner Light, Camo Hunter, Bound Aegis, Twilight Tormentor, Bird of Prey, etc. means that simple rotations are able to get a small benefit out of unused bar slots.

Vevvev

Not sure what you mean by unused as I use it plenty in PVP and on rare occasion in PVE when I don't have an AoE slotted and an NPC goes invisible. Its a utility skill with an active component meant for bringing cloaked foes to light. The offensive boosting passives are there to make the skill not a complete waste of space, and besides you probably were not going to use the extra ability you'd gain anyway. Moment you spend more time refreshing things and not whacking things the less your DPS goes down, so having an ability that boosts your damage and you don't have to touch it is incredibly useful.

lolo_01b16_ESO

Bodycounter wrote: »

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

Why do you think it's bad? Noone is forcing you to use it.
If you want to use only a few very powerful skills, you slot some passive skills like mage light and if you want to use a lot of different skills, you just slot something else.

I think we both know that's not true. If you want to be competitive you have to slot Inner Light and just let it stay in your bar without ever being used in PvE. It's inherently bad game design when a passive that is attached to a skill is so powerful (+7% max magicka) that other active abilities cannot compete with it. Inner Light should at least be balanced with abilities like Inferno or Lotus Flower (which is stupidly undertuned for no reason).

So people are actually fine with 80% of your skills being passive and you only have to click like 2 buttons? Good to know.

I don't think it's true. There might be some builds that don't have anything better to slot than inner light (e.g. a magblade with medusa in a fight where you can't use shimmering frenzy), but some other builds benefit more from slotting an additional dot instead of inner light.

ealdwin

Bodycounter wrote: »

Yes, Inner Light has an active part but it's just gimmicky in PvE.

Just because it's active part isn't combat oriented or is "gimmicky" in PVE, doesn't mean the active part isn't useful. As Vevvev points out the active part is mainly PVP focused with the intent of providing a skill to reveal cloaked enemies.

Faded

ealdwin wrote: »

Bodycounter wrote: »

Yes, Inner Light has an active part but it's just gimmicky in PvE.

Just because it's active part isn't combat oriented or is "gimmicky" in PVE, doesn't mean the active part isn't useful. As Vevvev points out the active part is mainly PVP focused with the intent of providing a skill to reveal cloaked enemies.

OP is talking about the other morph, not the Radiant Magelight we use in PVP for revealing enemies and avoiding stun-from-stealth. Its only purpose is sitting your bar providing stat boosts (and giving you the giant red eye over your head if you accidentally activate it). They're nice stat boosts, but it is functionally a passive in PVE.

I don't like it either, but the argument that it simplifies rotations is probably on the mark.

Vevvev

Faded wrote: »

ealdwin wrote: »

Bodycounter wrote: »

Yes, Inner Light has an active part but it's just gimmicky in PvE.

Just because it's active part isn't combat oriented or is "gimmicky" in PVE, doesn't mean the active part isn't useful. As Vevvev points out the active part is mainly PVP focused with the intent of providing a skill to reveal cloaked enemies.

OP is talking about the other morph, not the Radiant Magelight we use in PVP for revealing enemies and avoiding stun-from-stealth. Its only purpose is sitting your bar providing stat boosts (and giving you the giant red eye over your head if you accidentally activate it). They're nice stat boosts, but it is functionally a passive in PVE.

I don't like it either, but the argument that it simplifies rotations is probably on the mark.

He was referring to Inner Light when he mentioned me. Yes, while Inner Light sucks compared to Radiant Magelight when it comes to revealing people it's still nice to have when you encounter a stealthy foe. I'll even couple it with an AoE ability so I can use the AoE to rip them out of stealth for a split second to get where they're moving before moving there to peg them with Inner Light when they use cloak again. Requires a more aggressive approach compared to Radiant but it still does it's job.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Disagree. Passive skills are handy. They allow rotations to stay managable for a good chunck of the playerbase, and they are easy to flex out if needed for more active skills if you want. IL is also nice because if you have a source of major sorcery, you can use it to run cheap pots.

Scalding rune is actually a very powerful skill as is. If you added minor force to it, it would probably need a nerf. It would also go from optional to probably mandatory. I wouldnt necessarily be opposed to it being reworked with minor force, but I dont subscribe to the notion that every thing in the Fighters Guild needs mirrored in the Mage's Guild. Magic has 3 options for minor force, and all are situationally useful and viable.

QuebraRegra

I have similar feelings about other bar skills that we don't actually use, and are only there to trigger some passive aspect of the skill...

basically, make them passives!

From a balance perspective, like the new CP system, we should "slot passives" in a passive selection system (passive bar). ESO suffers from the VERY limited bar system, other MMOs get around this on console, by allowing for the slotting of more skills, some of which trigger on configurable parameters (heal when at x% of health, etc.).

Change some of these 'dummy" skills to passives in their respective skill lines, then allow us to slot 'x' number of passives total for a character (also need loadouts now0

Chilly-McFreeze

QuebraRegra wrote: »

I have similar feelings about other bar skills that we don't actually use, and are only there to trigger some passive aspect of the skill...

basically, make them passives!

From a balance perspective, like the new CP system, we should "slot passives" in a passive selection system (passive bar). ESO suffers from the VERY limited bar system, other MMOs get around this on console, by allowing for the slotting of more skills, some of which trigger on configurable parameters (heal when at x% of health, etc.).

Change some of these 'dummy" skills to passives in their respective skill lines, then allow us to slot 'x' number of passives total for a character (also need loadouts now0

Some severe balance checks would be necessary by that as it would mean you have those skills double slotted + the benefits of another active skill all at the same time.

Just imagine you'd have X additional skil slots (0.5X per bar) for those "dummy skills". Talking about power creep.
And how would that interact with skill line passives that read "when X slotted"? Would that also add on top of the additional passives?

But sure, gimme that tasty 20% stam/health regen, 8% stam & health pool increase, 10% LA damage (Bound Armor) and major savagery, minor berserk , 3% weapon dmg (camo hunter) for free on my stamsorc. Then I can add another HoT or and whatever on my bars. What could possibly go wrong?

Seraphayel

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Disagree. Passive skills are handy. They allow rotations to stay managable for a good chunck of the playerbase, and they are easy to flex out if needed for more active skills if you want. IL is also nice because if you have a source of major sorcery, you can use it to run cheap pots.

Scalding rune is actually a very powerful skill as is. If you added minor force to it, it would probably need a nerf. It would also go from optional to probably mandatory. I wouldnt necessarily be opposed to it being reworked with minor force, but I dont subscribe to the notion that every thing in the Fighters Guild needs mirrored in the Mage's Guild. Magic has 3 options for minor force, and all are situationally useful and viable.

Passive skills are glorified traits and shouldn’t cost a slot though.

Why is Scalding Rune very powerful? It’s damage? Or what?

El_Borracho

Its a PVP skill with some PVE utility. Like Camouflaged Hunter is for stamina.

Bodycounter

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

I think these “passive skills” exist to help level DPS across all skill levels. Some players don’t want to keep up with a rotation of 10-11 active skills. The ability to slot Inner Light, Camo Hunter, Bound Aegis, Twilight Tormentor, Bird of Prey, etc. means that simple rotations are able to get a small benefit out of unused bar slots.

It‘s generally nice to be able to place some passive skills for newer players but they should not be stronger than harder to manage active skills, should they? Lotus Flower for example offers Major Prophecy and is an active skill but is far worse than Inner Light. Why is this good design?

And for all the PvP people: I am specifically talking about Inner Light not Radiant Magelight. Please don‘t make every single thread about PvP when it‘s clearly aimed at PvE.

This is by the way not the only example. There are several passive skills in this game that just sit on your bar.

El_Borracho

Bodycounter wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

I think these “passive skills” exist to help level DPS across all skill levels. Some players don’t want to keep up with a rotation of 10-11 active skills. The ability to slot Inner Light, Camo Hunter, Bound Aegis, Twilight Tormentor, Bird of Prey, etc. means that simple rotations are able to get a small benefit out of unused bar slots.

It‘s generally nice to be able to place some passive skills for newer players but they should not be stronger than harder to manage active skills, should they? Lotus Flower for example offers Major Prophecy and is an active skill but is far worse than Inner Light. Why is this good design?

And for all the PvP people: I am specifically talking about Inner Light not Radiant Magelight. Please don‘t make every single thread about PvP when it‘s clearly aimed at PvE.

This is by the way not the only example. There are several passive skills in this game that just sit on your bar.

Sounds like you want a skill with the passives of Inner Light but will cause damage, or heal, or shield, etc. So would every single other player in the game.

You don't have to slot these skills if you don't want to. But with some builds, for instance stamplar or a stamblade, its better to slot Camo Hunter instead of another damage skill as Camo Hunter plus the other skills on that bar will do more damage compared to if you took Camo Hunter off and put on something else.

Same for some magsorc builds with inner light. I have a heavy attack solo sorc build that slots Inner Light on the front bar for damage and resources. Run it through VMA all the time. Wouldn't even take Inner Light off as slotting another skill takes resources and damage away.

tenryuta

Bodycounter wrote: »

TLDR: Having abilities in a game that only lets you slot 10+2 skills overall without any active function is really bad design and should have been changed long ago.

/stare, only 12 skills... unlike ffderpstain/aion/astellia, eso has little to no combo interactions, skill comboing by the end/beginning of animation yes(entropy>soul trap/orb, warden seed>entropy>trap, as examples. necro corpse consuming doesnt count because it can be used on adds as well)... if your not an anim-canceler pretending the devs didnt put some effort into the animations as if it were eq1/2(yes yes, old mmos dont need fancy anims because your focus on some gawd awful mechanic the has increasingly devastating results), then you wouldnt need even 4 skills at any time(2-3 aoes and an execute), unless youre doing some super hax anim-cancelling to drop 7-10 dots to melt bosses

QuebraRegra

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

QuebraRegra wrote: »

I have similar feelings about other bar skills that we don't actually use, and are only there to trigger some passive aspect of the skill...

basically, make them passives!

From a balance perspective, like the new CP system, we should "slot passives" in a passive selection system (passive bar). ESO suffers from the VERY limited bar system, other MMOs get around this on console, by allowing for the slotting of more skills, some of which trigger on configurable parameters (heal when at x% of health, etc.).

Change some of these 'dummy" skills to passives in their respective skill lines, then allow us to slot 'x' number of passives total for a character (also need loadouts now0

Some severe balance checks would be necessary by that as it would mean you have those skills double slotted + the benefits of another active skill all at the same time.

Just imagine you'd have X additional skill slots (0.5X per bar) for those "dummy skills". Talking about power creep.
And how would that interact with skill line passives that read "when X slotted"? Would that also add on top of the additional passives?

But sure, gimme that tasty 20% stam/health regen, 8% stam & health pool increase, 10% LA damage (Bound Armor) and major savagery, minor berserk , 3% weapon dmg (camo hunter) for free on my stamsorc. Then I can add another HoT or and whatever on my bars. What could possibly go wrong?

I don't think MORE active skills on a bar would be the problem... If you spam "x", or use t,u,v,w,x,y,z, the end result can be the same as long as the skills don't necessarily buff one another, and are balanced in general. The limit to passives that can be slotted, provides the biggest balance check. Obviously the passives would have to be balanced as well... but NO unlimited passive stacking. Having more skill choices would make combat variety better, with more specific use cases to make combat more interesting... Also less of the rolling mechanical rotations.

Scardan

Bodycounter wrote: »

Is there any reason that Inner Light is still almost always necessary to be slotted but on the same time is just an unused skill in your bar? I think this is one of the worst skill designs in the game. There are other skills offering Major Prophecy especially class-based ones but none of them can compete with 7% additional maximum magicka. Since Inner Light offers no interesting active it has become a borderline boring skill to slot into your bar.

Another skill that missed its mark is Scalding Rune since it should have Minor Force attached to it. That way it would be the magicka variant of Barbed Trap in the Fighters Guild skill line.

TLDR: Having abilities in a game that only lets you slot 10+2 skills overall without any active function is really bad design and should have been changed long ago.

Potions and damage spell are imho better then Inner Light and 7% more magicka.