MagDen viable?

miguelcura

I get bad memories of other archaic mmos, when I see the same compositions in normal trials: DPS; Sorcerer and NB (a lot of magblades!) Healer: Templar and Warden, tanks: DK. A shame when all the classes can play all the roles.

Should you dedicate yourself to playing a MagDen as main? Or they are typecast as healer only. Can I be competitive? What do you think?
I know they are unwanted by raid leaders (or so I read) because of the buffs they bring to the group.

Is it possible to get out of the meta without suffering?

Thanks

Kurat

Unless you plan to play in some world class raid team and push scores, all classes are viable.
If you're in some average raid guild and lead doesn't want you because you are magden then you should look for another guild.

miguelcura

Kurat wrote: »

Unless you plan to play in some world class raid team and push scores, all classes are viable.
If you're in some average raid guild and lead doesn't want you because you are magden then you should look for another guild.

Thanks. I still don't understand why many say that, and I found liko.gg who is one of the best in the world ... (magden)
However, my question is formulated for the rest of the mortals XD
What happens is not clear to me if it is very difficult to master it, it is a myth, or simply people do not know the potential of the class.

WrathOfInnos

Magden is capable of any content, and it’s looking to be one of the top Magicka DPS after the update next week. It doesn’t have as much group support as some other classes (just Minor Vuln and maybe Minor Brittle), but it’s no worse than Magblade.

FrancisCrawford

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Magden is capable of any content, and it’s looking to be one of the top Magicka DPS after the update next week. It doesn’t have as much group support as some other classes (just Minor Vuln and maybe Minor Brittle), but it’s no worse than Magblade.

How does the update help Magden more than other classes? I very much hope you're right, as I like Magden and booming with Shalks every 3 seconds.

As for group support from DDs, Magden offers:

• AOE Major Breach. Necros offer that too.
• Minor Toughness. This is delivered via healing everybody else on your team, so it's not natural for DDs to provide that.
• Major Maim. It's been nerfed, and even before the nerf that wasn't a common ultimate for Magdens to use.
• Off-Balance and Minor Vulnerability. This combination is usually provided by a support player, via Lightning Wall. Also, Off-Balance is becoming less important than it used to be with Expoiter going away. Also, if Update 29 leads to conditions being caused more freely, Minor Vulnerability will be less valuable than before. But with all that, maybe support will provide it less (and Brittle more), making it more valuable from Magdens after all.

Am I missing anything?

WrathOfInnos

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Magden is capable of any content, and it’s looking to be one of the top Magicka DPS after the update next week. It doesn’t have as much group support as some other classes (just Minor Vuln and maybe Minor Brittle), but it’s no worse than Magblade.

How does the update help Magden more than other classes? I very much hope you're right, as I like Magden and booming with Shalks every 3 seconds.

As for group support from DDs, Magden offers:

• AOE Major Breach. Necros offer that too.
• Minor Toughness. This is delivered via healing everybody else on your team, so it's not natural for DDs to provide that.
• Major Maim. It's been nerfed, and even before the nerf that wasn't a common ultimate for Magdens to use.
• Off-Balance and Minor Vulnerability. This combination is usually provided by a support player, via Lightning Wall. Also, Off-Balance is becoming less important than it used to be with Expoiter going away. Also, if Update 29 leads to conditions being caused more freely, Minor Vulnerability will be less valuable than before. But with all that, maybe support will provide it less (and Brittle more), making it more valuable from Magdens after all.

Am I missing anything?

@FrancisCrawford I think Magden was just hurt less than some other classes by the CP changes. They do well with a DoT rotation, and therefore were affected less than Sorcs by the removal of Master at Arms. On live patch Sorcs are parsing about 8k higher than Magden, while on PTS Magden falls just 1k behind 2 pet sorc, and ahead of 1 pet Sorc. Magden is also behind Magcro in PTS testing, but Magcro uses both shooting star and avid boneyard to hit those numbers, so it doesn’t really translate to raid. Magblade was also hit hard by the missing Master at Arms, since their bow procs and impales are weaker now, and they are showing very similar damage to Magden.

I agree that Major Maim is uncommon. I would not recommend dropping the bear for a damage build. Minor Toughness is also more of a healer/tank buff, since you’d need to Budding Seeds or Enchanted Growth to give the group the buff. Really just Fetcher for the Minor Vuln now, I think off-balance is pretty worthless without exploiter. Frost Cloak is the only non-Damage skill that could reasonably be placed on a Magden DPS, but even that is a dps loss and better used on a warden support.

miguelcura

Very good contributions, it shows that you dominate the game well, but I think I'm more confused haha

FrancisCrawford

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Magden is capable of any content, and it’s looking to be one of the top Magicka DPS after the update next week. It doesn’t have as much group support as some other classes (just Minor Vuln and maybe Minor Brittle), but it’s no worse than Magblade.

How does the update help Magden more than other classes? I very much hope you're right, as I like Magden and booming with Shalks every 3 seconds.

As for group support from DDs, Magden offers:

• AOE Major Breach. Necros offer that too.
• Minor Toughness. This is delivered via healing everybody else on your team, so it's not natural for DDs to provide that.
• Major Maim. It's been nerfed, and even before the nerf that wasn't a common ultimate for Magdens to use.
• Off-Balance and Minor Vulnerability. This combination is usually provided by a support player, via Lightning Wall. Also, Off-Balance is becoming less important than it used to be with Expoiter going away. Also, if Update 29 leads to conditions being caused more freely, Minor Vulnerability will be less valuable than before. But with all that, maybe support will provide it less (and Brittle more), making it more valuable from Magdens after all.

Am I missing anything?

@FrancisCrawford I think Magden was just hurt less than some other classes by the CP changes. They do well with a DoT rotation, and therefore were affected less than Sorcs by the removal of Master at Arms. On live patch Sorcs are parsing about 8k higher than Magden, while on PTS Magden falls just 1k behind 2 pet sorc, and ahead of 1 pet Sorc. Magden is also behind Magcro in PTS testing, but Magcro uses both shooting star and avid boneyard to hit those numbers, so it doesn’t really translate to raid. Magblade was also hit hard by the missing Master at Arms, since their bow procs and impales are weaker now, and they are showing very similar damage to Magden.

I agree that Major Maim is uncommon. I would not recommend dropping the bear for a damage build. Minor Toughness is also more of a healer/tank buff, since you’d need to Budding Seeds or Enchanted Growth to give the group the buff. Really just Fetcher for the Minor Vuln now, I think off-balance is pretty worthless without exploiter. Frost Cloak is the only non-Damage skill that could reasonably be placed on a Magden DPS, but even that is a dps loss and better used on a warden support.

Great stuff. Thanks, @WrathOfInnos! It never even occurred to me that Assassin's Will might be affected by Master at Arms.

One thing -- if your goal is to contribute to group DPS, wouldn't it actually make sense to count synergy damage? I get that Necros with Boneyard are the only ones who can capture that benefit in a parse -- still, they are giving that synergy in a real fight too, while a warden DD is not giving one at all.

WrathOfInnos

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Magden is capable of any content, and it’s looking to be one of the top Magicka DPS after the update next week. It doesn’t have as much group support as some other classes (just Minor Vuln and maybe Minor Brittle), but it’s no worse than Magblade.

How does the update help Magden more than other classes? I very much hope you're right, as I like Magden and booming with Shalks every 3 seconds.

As for group support from DDs, Magden offers:

• AOE Major Breach. Necros offer that too.
• Minor Toughness. This is delivered via healing everybody else on your team, so it's not natural for DDs to provide that.
• Major Maim. It's been nerfed, and even before the nerf that wasn't a common ultimate for Magdens to use.
• Off-Balance and Minor Vulnerability. This combination is usually provided by a support player, via Lightning Wall. Also, Off-Balance is becoming less important than it used to be with Expoiter going away. Also, if Update 29 leads to conditions being caused more freely, Minor Vulnerability will be less valuable than before. But with all that, maybe support will provide it less (and Brittle more), making it more valuable from Magdens after all.

Am I missing anything?

@FrancisCrawford I think Magden was just hurt less than some other classes by the CP changes. They do well with a DoT rotation, and therefore were affected less than Sorcs by the removal of Master at Arms. On live patch Sorcs are parsing about 8k higher than Magden, while on PTS Magden falls just 1k behind 2 pet sorc, and ahead of 1 pet Sorc. Magden is also behind Magcro in PTS testing, but Magcro uses both shooting star and avid boneyard to hit those numbers, so it doesn’t really translate to raid. Magblade was also hit hard by the missing Master at Arms, since their bow procs and impales are weaker now, and they are showing very similar damage to Magden.

I agree that Major Maim is uncommon. I would not recommend dropping the bear for a damage build. Minor Toughness is also more of a healer/tank buff, since you’d need to Budding Seeds or Enchanted Growth to give the group the buff. Really just Fetcher for the Minor Vuln now, I think off-balance is pretty worthless without exploiter. Frost Cloak is the only non-Damage skill that could reasonably be placed on a Magden DPS, but even that is a dps loss and better used on a warden support.

Great stuff. Thanks, @WrathOfInnos! It never even occurred to me that Assassin's Will might be affected by Master at Arms.

One thing -- if your goal is to contribute to group DPS, wouldn't it actually make sense to count synergy damage? I get that Necros with Boneyard are the only ones who can capture that benefit in a parse -- still, they are giving that synergy in a real fight too, while a warden DD is not giving one at all.

That’s a fair point about synergy contribution to group DPS. And since Warden doesn’t have a good one that would definitely be a point to Necro. Necro can also give the Grave Robber synergy to someone in group every 10s, while their solo parses with Avid only have it every 20s. Comparing with any other build that gives a synergy (but can’t use it solo) makes Necro appear inflated, but it does seem fair to include that in the Warden comparison.

There is also a sustain aspect to synergies, because Avid restores about 70 mag/sec with Undaunted Passives. In a 3 1/2 minute parse this adds up to 15k Magicka gained. It’s enough of a difference that Magcro can sustain Mystic Orb on a trial dummy, while Magden has to drop it for something cheaper (usually Flame Reach or Consuming Trap). In raid this effect goes away, since all DD’s have access to the same synergies, and Magden definitely needs Orb (although even in raid Magden sustain is pretty bad).

Runefang

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Magden is capable of any content, and it’s looking to be one of the top Magicka DPS after the update next week. It doesn’t have as much group support as some other classes (just Minor Vuln and maybe Minor Brittle), but it’s no worse than Magblade.

How does the update help Magden more than other classes? I very much hope you're right, as I like Magden and booming with Shalks every 3 seconds.

As for group support from DDs, Magden offers:

• AOE Major Breach. Necros offer that too.
• Minor Toughness. This is delivered via healing everybody else on your team, so it's not natural for DDs to provide that.
• Major Maim. It's been nerfed, and even before the nerf that wasn't a common ultimate for Magdens to use.
• Off-Balance and Minor Vulnerability. This combination is usually provided by a support player, via Lightning Wall. Also, Off-Balance is becoming less important than it used to be with Expoiter going away. Also, if Update 29 leads to conditions being caused more freely, Minor Vulnerability will be less valuable than before. But with all that, maybe support will provide it less (and Brittle more), making it more valuable from Magdens after all.

Am I missing anything?

@FrancisCrawford I think Magden was just hurt less than some other classes by the CP changes. They do well with a DoT rotation, and therefore were affected less than Sorcs by the removal of Master at Arms. On live patch Sorcs are parsing about 8k higher than Magden, while on PTS Magden falls just 1k behind 2 pet sorc, and ahead of 1 pet Sorc. Magden is also behind Magcro in PTS testing, but Magcro uses both shooting star and avid boneyard to hit those numbers, so it doesn’t really translate to raid. Magblade was also hit hard by the missing Master at Arms, since their bow procs and impales are weaker now, and they are showing very similar damage to Magden.

I agree that Major Maim is uncommon. I would not recommend dropping the bear for a damage build. Minor Toughness is also more of a healer/tank buff, since you’d need to Budding Seeds or Enchanted Growth to give the group the buff. Really just Fetcher for the Minor Vuln now, I think off-balance is pretty worthless without exploiter. Frost Cloak is the only non-Damage skill that could reasonably be placed on a Magden DPS, but even that is a dps loss and better used on a warden support.

Great stuff. Thanks, @WrathOfInnos! It never even occurred to me that Assassin's Will might be affected by Master at Arms.

One thing -- if your goal is to contribute to group DPS, wouldn't it actually make sense to count synergy damage? I get that Necros with Boneyard are the only ones who can capture that benefit in a parse -- still, they are giving that synergy in a real fight too, while a warden DD is not giving one at all.

That’s a fair point about synergy contribution to group DPS. And since Warden doesn’t have a good one that would definitely be a point to Necro. Necro can also give the Grave Robber synergy to someone in group every 10s, while their solo parses with Avid only have it every 20s. Comparing with any other build that gives a synergy (but can’t use it solo) makes Necro appear inflated, but it does seem fair to include that in the Warden comparison.

There is also a sustain aspect to synergies, because Avid restores about 70 mag/sec with Undaunted Passives. In a 3 1/2 minute parse this adds up to 15k Magicka gained. It’s enough of a difference that Magcro can sustain Mystic Orb on a trial dummy, while Magden has to drop it for something cheaper (usually Flame Reach or Consuming Trap). In raid this effect goes away, since all DD’s have access to the same synergies, and Magden definitely needs Orb (although even in raid Magden sustain is pretty bad).

I can sustain Orb on the dummy on the PTS without any issues by the way without any heavies. Admittedly I’ve topped out at 94k while Lulu can do 99k.

But the real issue is why bring a Magden to a top end raid? If it’s CR or AS then the burst of Magblades is superior. If it’s SS or KA then the DoT and AoE of Magcro is better. Maybe HoF suits them best given the good mix of fights.

That said they are perfectly viable of doing anything given their dummy DPS is close to the top.

Blue_Radium

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Magden is capable of any content, and it’s looking to be one of the top Magicka DPS after the update next week. It doesn’t have as much group support as some other classes (just Minor Vuln and maybe Minor Brittle), but it’s no worse than Magblade.

How does the update help Magden more than other classes? I very much hope you're right, as I like Magden and booming with Shalks every 3 seconds.

As for group support from DDs, Magden offers:

• AOE Major Breach. Necros offer that too.
• Minor Toughness. This is delivered via healing everybody else on your team, so it's not natural for DDs to provide that.
• Major Maim. It's been nerfed, and even before the nerf that wasn't a common ultimate for Magdens to use.
• Off-Balance and Minor Vulnerability. This combination is usually provided by a support player, via Lightning Wall. Also, Off-Balance is becoming less important than it used to be with Expoiter going away. Also, if Update 29 leads to conditions being caused more freely, Minor Vulnerability will be less valuable than before. But with all that, maybe support will provide it less (and Brittle more), making it more valuable from Magdens after all.

Am I missing anything?

This sums it up - magdens don't provide anything special to the group as a DD, and they have "suboptimal" DPS, so they are considered low-tier. Doesn't mean you can't play one effectively though.

Classes always go in and out of favor for damage anyways. Could wake up in a month and be a hot commodity, that you have a ton of practice on and nobody else has practice on. Sticking to magblade and building up a reputation as a really good one, while it was a meme spec, got me into more extra sweaty pug runs than I could manage when ZOS sprinkled top tier DPS dust on them all the sudden.

miguelcura

Blue_Radium wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Magden is capable of any content, and it’s looking to be one of the top Magicka DPS after the update next week. It doesn’t have as much group support as some other classes (just Minor Vuln and maybe Minor Brittle), but it’s no worse than Magblade.

How does the update help Magden more than other classes? I very much hope you're right, as I like Magden and booming with Shalks every 3 seconds.

As for group support from DDs, Magden offers:

• AOE Major Breach. Necros offer that too.
• Minor Toughness. This is delivered via healing everybody else on your team, so it's not natural for DDs to provide that.
• Major Maim. It's been nerfed, and even before the nerf that wasn't a common ultimate for Magdens to use.
• Off-Balance and Minor Vulnerability. This combination is usually provided by a support player, via Lightning Wall. Also, Off-Balance is becoming less important than it used to be with Expoiter going away. Also, if Update 29 leads to conditions being caused more freely, Minor Vulnerability will be less valuable than before. But with all that, maybe support will provide it less (and Brittle more), making it more valuable from Magdens after all.

Am I missing anything?

This sums it up - magdens don't provide anything special to the group as a DD, and they have "suboptimal" DPS, so they are considered low-tier. Doesn't mean you can't play one effectively though.

Classes always go in and out of favor for damage anyways. Could wake up in a month and be a hot commodity, that you have a ton of practice on and nobody else has practice on. Sticking to magblade and building up a reputation as a really good one, while it was a meme spec, got me into more extra sweaty pug runs than I could manage when ZOS sprinkled top tier DPS dust on them all the sudden.

Of course now I understand, thanks for translating it ... but ... has Magden ever been up in dps? XD
From what I read it was born as a support.

WrathOfInnos

miguelcura wrote: »

Blue_Radium wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Magden is capable of any content, and it’s looking to be one of the top Magicka DPS after the update next week. It doesn’t have as much group support as some other classes (just Minor Vuln and maybe Minor Brittle), but it’s no worse than Magblade.

How does the update help Magden more than other classes? I very much hope you're right, as I like Magden and booming with Shalks every 3 seconds.

As for group support from DDs, Magden offers:

• AOE Major Breach. Necros offer that too.
• Minor Toughness. This is delivered via healing everybody else on your team, so it's not natural for DDs to provide that.
• Major Maim. It's been nerfed, and even before the nerf that wasn't a common ultimate for Magdens to use.
• Off-Balance and Minor Vulnerability. This combination is usually provided by a support player, via Lightning Wall. Also, Off-Balance is becoming less important than it used to be with Expoiter going away. Also, if Update 29 leads to conditions being caused more freely, Minor Vulnerability will be less valuable than before. But with all that, maybe support will provide it less (and Brittle more), making it more valuable from Magdens after all.

Am I missing anything?

This sums it up - magdens don't provide anything special to the group as a DD, and they have "suboptimal" DPS, so they are considered low-tier. Doesn't mean you can't play one effectively though.

Classes always go in and out of favor for damage anyways. Could wake up in a month and be a hot commodity, that you have a ton of practice on and nobody else has practice on. Sticking to magblade and building up a reputation as a really good one, while it was a meme spec, got me into more extra sweaty pug runs than I could manage when ZOS sprinkled top tier DPS dust on them all the sudden.

Of course now I understand, thanks for translating it ... but ... has Magden ever been up in dps? XD
From what I read it was born as a support.

Briefly in Greymoor they were very good, during the vampire meta. Blood for Blood deals magic damage and therefore hits 10% harder with Warden passives, and since it costs health (not magicka) the sustain issues associated with Warden go away.

This build made a comeback in Markarth with the added benefit of Simmering Frenzy, but it requires the Ring of Pale Order, which disables external healing and makes the build dangerous and niche. It’s still very powerful, but not a good idea to try it in most groups.

For non-vamps Magden was pretty good in the last DoT meta patch, Scalebreaker. Everything has been very direct damage focused since then and Magden hasn’t risen above mediocre, at least until the patch next week brings back DoT superiority with the new CP system.