Other people's addons?

marlonbrando

My guild is convinced that one of the biggest problems with PVP on Gray Host is the addons that some ball groups use to coordinate. We think that possibly the server could get overloaded with things like "map pings" or event notifications when engaging with an enemy group which coordinates with addons like "RDK Group Tool". The negative effects that we see are crashing, inability to use abilities, inability to drink a potion, and inability to break free.

I'm an addon developer myself so I know that it's at least within the realm of possibility that this could be a factor but it's not entirely clear to me how it could be an isolated event, i.e., if there's a ball group engaging players in Blue Road Keep, then those players will experience lag but the players in Glademist likely won't notice it. What would locality have to do with the issue?

I was wondering if console users see extreme lag when they engage with a ball group. Lag meaning, you can't fire your abilities, drink potions, or break free. Are ball groups even a thing on the consoles?

Kwoung

Pretty much everyone who PVP's uses RDK, it is basically the defacto standard in Cyrodill, not limited to ball groups by a long shot. In fact, it is probably used more by solo, pug & zerg players, as it tells you where the action is.

Ranger209

Kwoung wrote: »

Pretty much everyone who PVP's uses RDK, it is basically the defacto standard in Cyrodill, not limited to ball groups by a long shot. In fact, it is probably used more by solo, pug & zerg players, as it tells you where the action is.

Had never heard of this one. I went and looked it up to see what it offered.

Profile:
It is possible to create multiple profiles which can be used across characters. Changing the profile doesn’t require a /reloadui.
Crown:
This module allows you to add a bigger crown / graphic above the group leader.
Auto Invite:
This module allows to automatically add group’s members to the group, who are writing a certain keyword into the chat.
Follow the Crown:
There are four Follow the Crown modules. The allow setting an arrow directing to the crown, to show a display warning when a certain distance is reached, to play a sound if a distance is reached (you don’t want that :P ) and allows to add a beam on the group leader.
Debuff Overview:
Shows the amount of debuffs on the group members. Be careful with this feature as due to API restrictions (or bugs) this doesn’t seem to work properly. In a small group or when you are far away from the group, this feature might work. In bigger groups this doesn’t seem to be the case.
Rapid Overview:
This module shows which rapid morphs are up, including the minor expedition buff given by one of the morphs.
Resource Overview:
Shares and displays information about the ultimate, magicka and stamina. There are plenty of different configuration possibilities including the assignment of ultimate groups.
Healing Damage Meter:
Shares and shows the amount of healing and damage done by the group members.
Potion Overview:
This module shows which group member is on potion cooldown and for how long. Furthermore, you see which kind of potion (crafted, crown store and so on) has been used. In case of an immovability pot, the duration of that buff is shown as well.
Detonation Tracker:
This module shows the active detonations of the group’s members.
Group Beams:
Depending on the role (not tank, healer and dd) it is possible to show additional beams on certain group members.
I See Dead People:
Dead group members will have a beam. The color of the beam will depend on the resurrection status.
Yet Another Compass:
Another AddOn I’ve developed previously.
Simple Compass:
An alternative compass.
Siege Merchant:
Allows automatically buying siege weapons on the merchant. The module attempts to first buy the minimum amount. Afterwards it will buy equipment up to the maximum value.
Recharger:
Automatically recharges your weapons.
Buff Food Tracker:
Displays a warning before the buff food runs out.
Cyrodiil Log:
This module shows information regarding Cyrodiil in your chat window.
Cyrodiil Status:
Shows the current state of active objectives. It includes the state of the flags, amount of deployed siege weapons and a counter, which tells you when the objective will flip the faction.
Enhancements:
Change settings related to the quest tracker, default compass, warnings and the respawn timer (camp).
Respawner:
Allows the set a key binding for resurrection at a camp or a keep. There are different key bindings for the camp and the keep.
Camp Preview:
If a camp is active on the quick slot, you’ll see the camp radius on your map. This doesn’t work with all MiniMaps.
Role Assignment:
Let’s you assign a default role to your character.
Synergy Prevention:
You can define a list of synergies which you won’t be able to use. Furthermore, it is possible to configure that list in a way that you are able to use a certain synergy as soon as all players flagged as “Synergy Role” are on cool down for this particular synergy.
Synergy Overview:
Shows you which player has used which synergy including the current cooldown of that player.
Campaign Auto Join:
Accepts the campaign invite automatically after 10 seconds. This module might be useful if you’re in queue and want to grab a new cup of coffee.
AvA Messages:
Allows you to enable / disable certain messages that appear in the middle of your screen while being in Cyrodiil (e.g. Depose Emperor Messages).
Group Share:
This module allows guild administrators (rank 1 to 3) to query certain information from the group members. That information may (depending on the configuration) include game settings, AddOn settings, stats, mundus stones, skills, equipment and CPs. Note that this feature is DISABLED by default.
More:
In addition there are further AddOn settings and modules, which aren’t final and there for testing (e.g. Templar).

I would say that this addon is to grouping what Miat's was to 1vXing and individual combat. It is way too much information about other people that gives huge advantages to those that have it over those that don't. I really don't see much point in using it as a solo player either as from what I am seeing above nothing interests me from a solo combat perspective.

phbell

OP is exactly right and RDK should be considered cheating and against the ToS.

Sandman929

Consoles see the same issues with no add-ons

CSose

I've always wondered how much of a load Master Merchant is on the server. I don't know how RDK works, but there isn't much it doesn't do, so it's got to be checking for a lot of things too. I know for sure when you log on though, MM takes about 10 seconds to stop lagging the game. Maybe MM should put that data retrieval on a toggle? I don't see how RDK could be considered cheating. It does a lot, but nothing like Miats did.

I don't know, but as far as skills go, I think the group heals and purging is probably the main culprit

CSose

Sandman929 wrote: »

Consoles see the same issues with no add-ons

good point, ty

marlonbrando

Sandman929 wrote: »

Consoles see the same issues with no add-ons

That's what I was wondering. If console players are experiencing the same frustrating mash-your-keys-repeatedly-while-screaming-at-the-game-to-do-something scenario on consoles as we do on the PC then I don't see how it could be addon related. If it's just I had to hit the button a couple of times before it fired then that's not quite the same.

It would be interesting to hear from anyone who has played both PC and console to see if the "lag feel" is the same.

marlonbrando

phbell wrote: »

OP is exactly right and RDK should be considered cheating and against the ToS.

RDK is an incredible effort from someone who has managed to gather boatloads of useful information provided by game APIs and provide it to the end user. A lot of what it does is available from other addons but the goal of the addon is apparently to be a Swiss army knife.

I didn't mean to imply that it was doing anything illegal and I don't think it should be considered cheating.

The information that it provides to a ball group is different than what a solo player would use. There would be a lot more server traffic when it's used by a ball group since it shares information about ultimates or synergies being used between everyone in the group.

From a solo perspective, among other things, you can get information about keeps that are under attack and have it remind you when your potions or food are running out.

It's really an amazing piece of software. I don't run it but, as a programmer, I really am in awe at the effort that was put into it.

Sahidom

A test cases that evaluated the perfirmance with a PVP environment where addons were disabled would be a valid test case scenario.

Ranger209

Sandman929 wrote: »

Consoles see the same issues with no add-ons

From the horror stories I recall from 3 or 4 years ago consoles used to be way worse than PC. Now the lag stories PC speaks of and the lag stories Consoles speak of are roughly the same. Consoles have always had more issues than PC in regard to performance, but that gap has lessened significantly. Do more sophisticated, and intensive addons have anything to do with PC closing this performance gap?

Then there is the sheer amount of info that they provide that give a big advantage of using them over people that don't use them. My opinion they make too much info available. I wouldn't call it cheating, more akin to giving one football team pads while the other plays in leather helmets without facemasks.

VaranisArano

CSose wrote: »

I've always wondered how much of a load Master Merchant is on the server. I don't know how RDK works, but there isn't much it doesn't do, so it's got to be checking for a lot of things too. I know for sure when you log on though, MM takes about 10 seconds to stop lagging the game. Maybe MM should put that data retrieval on a toggle? I don't see how RDK could be considered cheating. It does a lot, but nothing like Miats did.

I don't know, but as far as skills go, I think the group heals and purging is probably the main culprit

Master Merchant already had its ability to query the server severely curtailed by ZOS because it was causing issues. I think back in 2019?

Crash427

I have extreme lag when engaging with pvp guilds that stack 3 groups on a resource. Maybe its not the addons

Kwoung

RDK uses the same data as Hodors and numerous others do in PVE with Ultimate and resource sharing. But for the most part it is just displaying the information already being sent to your client anyways in a useful way for PVPers.

If it was banned, then everyone would just swap to Hodors and use the 20 different little addons that RDK brings into one place. Now if you banned Hodors, the entire PVE trial community would be in an uproar.

theCampeR_

Add-ons use the API provided to extract data and display it to the user in specific ways. These calculations already happen even without the addon. for an example, Combat metric pull up dps,heals etc etc numbers and displays it to you. But these damage/healing calcuations already happen in the server regardless of what addons you have. They just pull out these numbers and presents them to you. Addons will definitely cause FPS drops, but server lag? Lol no.

[snip]

[Edited to remove Bashing]

alterfenixeb17_ESO

Ranger209 wrote: »

I would say that this addon is to grouping what Miat's was to 1vXing and individual combat. It is way too much information about other people that gives huge advantages to those that have it over those that don't. I really don't see much point in using it as a solo player either as from what I am seeing above nothing interests me from a solo combat perspective.

I have checked it yesterday and generally I agree however with exceptions. There are players that for this reason or another are not in a group but still are following some action so from what I can see this add-on can do for solo player is:

- provide up to date statuses on different objectives (can replace bunch of adding such as Cyrodiil Alert or CyroChat)
- speed up buying from quartermasters should someone want to restock their supplies (sieges, repairs)
- a few minor activities helper that generally are done by groups however some solo players also from time to time do it such as camps

This is ofc not much really but nevertheless it can be used by some solo players too.

Kwoung

alterfenixeb17_ESO wrote: »

Ranger209 wrote: »

I would say that this addon is to grouping what Miat's was to 1vXing and individual combat. It is way too much information about other people that gives huge advantages to those that have it over those that don't. I really don't see much point in using it as a solo player either as from what I am seeing above nothing interests me from a solo combat perspective.

I have checked it yesterday and generally I agree however with exceptions. There are players that for this reason or another are not in a group but still are following some action so from what I can see this add-on can do for solo player is:

- provide up to date statuses on different objectives (can replace bunch of adding such as Cyrodiil Alert or CyroChat)
- speed up buying from quartermasters should someone want to restock their supplies (sieges, repairs)
- a few minor activities helper that generally are done by groups however some solo players also from time to time do it such as camps

This is ofc not much really but nevertheless it can be used by some solo players too.

It actually has very few features that are not offered by individual addons. And like when Miat's was "fixed" by the devs, by no longer making that sort of information about other players accessible via the API, RDK can't access it either. There is nothing nefarious about it, the only information it can give you about other players, are those in your group who "opted in", just like every other addon that supplies that information.

I personally use it solo to see where the action is, how many siege are deployed and how long before a resource/keep flips (which is a guess, not a real timer BTW). I also use it for the compass... and when grouped the crown beam/arrow. It is also handy to see the range of the camp you are wanting to put down so you know if the folks storming the castle will be able to use it. Group leaders on the other hand, can see if their team is ready, have the ulti's and resources to make a push or if they should wait. It does not however, give you any data whatsoever about your opponents.

Ranger209

Kwoung wrote: »

RDK uses the same data as Hodors and numerous others do in PVE with Ultimate and resource sharing. But for the most part it is just displaying the information already being sent to your client anyways in a useful way for PVPers.

If it was banned, then everyone would just swap to Hodors and use the 20 different little addons that RDK brings into one place. Now if you banned Hodors, the entire PVE trial community would be in an uproar.

Aren't end game trials the other place where performance is suffering? This is really what the OP is asking about. Are these addons causing performance problems? The advantages it gives in PvE when fighting AI I have no issue with. The advantages it provides when fighting other paying customers I do take issue with, but that is really not what the focal point of this conversation is about per the OP. The main question is do intensive addons like these tank performance, in PvP and also PvE?

alterfenixeb17_ESO

Kwoung wrote: »

alterfenixeb17_ESO wrote: »

Ranger209 wrote: »

I would say that this addon is to grouping what Miat's was to 1vXing and individual combat. It is way too much information about other people that gives huge advantages to those that have it over those that don't. I really don't see much point in using it as a solo player either as from what I am seeing above nothing interests me from a solo combat perspective.

I have checked it yesterday and generally I agree however with exceptions. There are players that for this reason or another are not in a group but still are following some action so from what I can see this add-on can do for solo player is:

- provide up to date statuses on different objectives (can replace bunch of adding such as Cyrodiil Alert or CyroChat)
- speed up buying from quartermasters should someone want to restock their supplies (sieges, repairs)
- a few minor activities helper that generally are done by groups however some solo players also from time to time do it such as camps

This is ofc not much really but nevertheless it can be used by some solo players too.

It actually has very few features that are not offered by individual addons. And like when Miat's was "fixed" by the devs, by no longer making that sort of information about other players accessible via the API, RDK can't access it either. There is nothing nefarious about it, the only information it can give you about other players, are those in your group who "opted in", just like every other addon that supplies that information.

I am not saying that there is. In fact while now checking out RDK I am using such bunch of adding myself like CyroChat for instance. Thing is that for someone who is using other dons this brings one potential benefit which is a single addon to provide all of this functionality. Small benefit rather tbh from my pov. For someone that is using no addons while RDK provides more less little benefit too (I guess it is matter of individual players how much it helps them) overall benefit is huge as this brings lots of quality of life changes not directly related to combat like statuses, faster restocking and so on.

Kwoung

alterfenixeb17_ESO wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

alterfenixeb17_ESO wrote: »

Ranger209 wrote: »

I would say that this addon is to grouping what Miat's was to 1vXing and individual combat. It is way too much information about other people that gives huge advantages to those that have it over those that don't. I really don't see much point in using it as a solo player either as from what I am seeing above nothing interests me from a solo combat perspective.

I have checked it yesterday and generally I agree however with exceptions. There are players that for this reason or another are not in a group but still are following some action so from what I can see this add-on can do for solo player is:

- provide up to date statuses on different objectives (can replace bunch of adding such as Cyrodiil Alert or CyroChat)
- speed up buying from quartermasters should someone want to restock their supplies (sieges, repairs)
- a few minor activities helper that generally are done by groups however some solo players also from time to time do it such as camps

This is ofc not much really but nevertheless it can be used by some solo players too.

It actually has very few features that are not offered by individual addons. And like when Miat's was "fixed" by the devs, by no longer making that sort of information about other players accessible via the API, RDK can't access it either. There is nothing nefarious about it, the only information it can give you about other players, are those in your group who "opted in", just like every other addon that supplies that information.

I am not saying that there is. In fact while now checking out RDK I am using such bunch of adding myself like CyroChat for instance. Thing is that for someone who is using other dons this brings one potential benefit which is a single addon to provide all of this functionality. Small benefit rather tbh from my pov. For someone that is using no addons while RDK provides more less little benefit too (I guess it is matter of individual players how much it helps them) overall benefit is huge as this brings lots of quality of life changes not directly related to combat like statuses, faster restocking and so on.

Yeah, but it is also a curse as well as a benefit, in such as it adds way more features than most people will want or use. I find I have probably 80% of it disabled just to be able to use the few unique features it offers. Much like the Shissu's guild management tool, which offers a couple features not available elsewhere, but so many other things you don't care about.

I think lag wise though to the OP's point, if anything it would only affect your client, not the game as a whole. My personal opinion on the lag, is the number of particles everyone's systems have to process & draw, especially in larger battles or when ball groups are around. Old school games gave you the option to turn them off to increase performance, ESO doesn't. Apparently the graphics team is very proud of all those sparkly effects washing out my entire screen, which no matter how good my graphics card is, it has to work to death to render them.

Ellimist_Entreri

Kwoung wrote: »

My personal opinion on the lag, is the number of particles everyone's systems have to process & draw, especially in larger battles or when ball groups are around. Old school games gave you the option to turn them off to increase performance, ESO doesn't. Apparently the graphics team is very proud of all those sparkly effects washing out my entire screen, which no matter how good my graphics card is, it has to work to death to render them.

Under Settings; Video:


That being said, the setting for "Maximum Particle Systems" in fact does not allow the user to completely disable them - my slider bottoms out at 768.

Daviiid_ESO

Ellimist_Entreri wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

My personal opinion on the lag, is the number of particles everyone's systems have to process & draw, especially in larger battles or when ball groups are around. Old school games gave you the option to turn them off to increase performance, ESO doesn't. Apparently the graphics team is very proud of all those sparkly effects washing out my entire screen, which no matter how good my graphics card is, it has to work to death to render them.

Under Settings; Video:


That being said, the setting for "Maximum Particle Systems" in fact does not allow the user to completely disable them - my slider bottoms out at 768.

You can set it lower in your usersettings file. You can also disable particle effects completely there.

Ellimist_Entreri

Daviiid_ESO wrote: »

Ellimist_Entreri wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

My personal opinion on the lag, is the number of particles everyone's systems have to process & draw, especially in larger battles or when ball groups are around. Old school games gave you the option to turn them off to increase performance, ESO doesn't. Apparently the graphics team is very proud of all those sparkly effects washing out my entire screen, which no matter how good my graphics card is, it has to work to death to render them.

Under Settings; Video:


That being said, the setting for "Maximum Particle Systems" in fact does not allow the user to completely disable them - my slider bottoms out at 768.

You can set it lower in your usersettings file. You can also disable particle effects completely there.

Insightful!!! Thank you!

Ackwalan

How about a no add-on test? Perhaps a short 3 day one.

In the past, ZOS said they could not disable add-ons for PvP and keep them on for PvE because of coding. That may have changed since the procs can be turn off for one and not the other.

Kwoung

Daviiid_ESO wrote: »

Ellimist_Entreri wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

My personal opinion on the lag, is the number of particles everyone's systems have to process & draw, especially in larger battles or when ball groups are around. Old school games gave you the option to turn them off to increase performance, ESO doesn't. Apparently the graphics team is very proud of all those sparkly effects washing out my entire screen, which no matter how good my graphics card is, it has to work to death to render them.

Under Settings; Video:


That being said, the setting for "Maximum Particle Systems" in fact does not allow the user to completely disable them - my slider bottoms out at 768.

You can set it lower in your usersettings file. You can also disable particle effects completely there.

Checking now, looked previously and couldn't find it. Not a newb FYI

Kwoung

Ackwalan wrote: »

How about a no add-on test? Perhaps a short 3 day one.

In the past, ZOS said they could not disable add-ons for PvP and keep them on for PvE because of coding. That may have changed since the procs can be turn off for one and not the other.

Procs are a server calculation, add-ons simply access the API they made available.

Kwoung

Kwoung wrote: »

Daviiid_ESO wrote: »

Ellimist_Entreri wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

My personal opinion on the lag, is the number of particles everyone's systems have to process & draw, especially in larger battles or when ball groups are around. Old school games gave you the option to turn them off to increase performance, ESO doesn't. Apparently the graphics team is very proud of all those sparkly effects washing out my entire screen, which no matter how good my graphics card is, it has to work to death to render them.

Under Settings; Video:


That being said, the setting for "Maximum Particle Systems" in fact does not allow the user to completely disable them - my slider bottoms out at 768.

You can set it lower in your usersettings file. You can also disable particle effects completely there.

Checking now, looked previously and couldn't find it. Not a newb FYI

Set "SET ParticlesEnabled "0"" now my game won't load

I think thats what happened last time and why I felt it couldn't be turned off.

Kwoung

Apparently there are many addons that mess with this setting. I finally managed to turn if off completely and be able to login. Unfortunately, even with particles off, there are hella particles everywhere. But is has helped a bit.

Seriously though, why isn't there an option in the game menu to completely turn these off, if for nothing else, than for the players who suffer from Epilepsy?

TQSkull

theCampeR_ wrote: »

Add-ons use the API provided to extract data and display it to the user in specific ways. These calculations already happen even without the addon. for an example, Combat metric pull up dps,heals etc etc numbers and displays it to you. But these damage/healing calcuations already happen in the server regardless of what addons you have. They just pull out these numbers and presents them to you. Addons will definitely cause FPS drops, but server lag? Lol no.

[snip]

[Edited to remove Bashing]

Wasn't it the same for Master Merchant? Of course the calculations are happening nonetheless on the server, but many of these calculations aren't displayed for the user. With such addons you specifically request the informations from the server, which could cause lag on the server (like Master Merchant guild sales request did).

marlonbrando

TQSkull wrote: »

theCampeR_ wrote: »

Add-ons use the API provided to extract data and display it to the user in specific ways. These calculations already happen even without the addon. for an example, Combat metric pull up dps,heals etc etc numbers and displays it to you. But these damage/healing calcuations already happen in the server regardless of what addons you have. They just pull out these numbers and presents them to you. Addons will definitely cause FPS drops, but server lag? Lol no.

[snip]

[Edited to remove Bashing]

Wasn't it the same for Master Merchant? Of course the calculations are happening nonetheless on the server, but many of these calculations aren't displayed for the user. With such addons you specifically request the informations from the server, which could cause lag on the server (like Master Merchant guild sales request did).

Yes, this.

When an addon queries the server, it asks the server to send it something. Of course the server has performed some calculations but asking the server to do something like set a map pin requires it perform operations that wouldn't have been done if the request wasn't made. Even asking "how many people in my group" is causing it to do *something* that it wouldn't have done if you hadn't asked.

You can get booted from the server if you ask it to send too many things in too short a time. That's likely to prevent malicious addons from swamping the server.

alterfenixeb17_ESO

TQSkull wrote: »

theCampeR_ wrote: »

Add-ons use the API provided to extract data and display it to the user in specific ways. These calculations already happen even without the addon. for an example, Combat metric pull up dps,heals etc etc numbers and displays it to you. But these damage/healing calcuations already happen in the server regardless of what addons you have. They just pull out these numbers and presents them to you. Addons will definitely cause FPS drops, but server lag? Lol no.

[snip]

[Edited to remove Bashing]

Wasn't it the same for Master Merchant? Of course the calculations are happening nonetheless on the server, but many of these calculations aren't displayed for the user. With such addons you specifically request the informations from the server, which could cause lag on the server (like Master Merchant guild sales request did).

There may be however one difference:

• MM does not rely on data automatically sent by server wherever MM is used or not. Each time player logs in MM sends bunch of queries to server in order to retrieve sales information. Without MM this work by server would not be done
• In case of most addons displaying for instance statuses of keeps (some communication with server required) keep in mind that this work has to be done by server anyway and this information would in case of most of such addons be sent to client regardless. Addon only does interpreting of it which is client side work 100%. After all why to query server one more time about siege details if this information is available on the map itself regardless of any suer addons?
• In case of addons calculating fps/hps, ap per hour and so on every single number (be it damage done, def tick and so on) needs to be acknowledged always by client (regardless of addons installed) so data displayed to user is always accurate. Data like how much HP character currently has for instance. Rest of it is just reusing this already sent data which is done again on client side.

Bottom line is while MM relies on data not sent by default those addons have all info locally always.