Idea to make the Werewolf and Vampire more fun and engaging to play.

Eldain333

Just as the title say.

I do not think i am alone in finding both the werewolf and vampire part of the game... well... poorly made.
So i will give you my own idea to fix this...make it more interesting and fun... and still lore.

1:Transform is instead toggle. on/off... But there is a CD... 10-15 seconds... so if you are transformed, you are stuck in what ever form for that time.
2: If you are WW or vamp, you feel weakened in your human form, and stronger in your beast form... Human = -15 % on all stats... Beast = stronger.
3: Give both Werewolf and Vampire more skills so they can bar swap... having only 5 is poor/lazy design.
4: Give them both a real ultimate to be used WHILE transformed.
5: More specialized gear towards both Werewolf and vampire... pro/con on their gears, but make them still attractive to use.
6: The white werewolf (packmaster), should stay tank... but get more defensive stats, and no dmg stats... (Savagery is the only thing dmg boon they keep).
7: The black werewolf (berzerker), should stay dps, but get more dps, and gets a negative armor bonus.. Increase crit %, crit dmg, armor pen, etc.
8: Have special CP tree available for Werewolf and Vampire??... pro/con.
9: werewolf and vampire would still break the law, so toggle OFF before entering cities or talking to npcs... just like normal.
10: Make more customization appearance options for Werewolf and Vampire.

This sounds like it would take a very long time to make.
But it actually would not... most things are already in the game in one form or another!.

So lets get into more detail... Of course, the values on some of the skills and passives will need to be tested and fine tuned.

1: The toggle on/off should be pretty easy to make... just use the Ultimate slot as is... If in human form = transform... if in WW or vamp = use ultimate.
And if in WW or vamp form, and ultimate is full, and you want to be human... double tap. 2 taps in less than 1.5 second = transform to human.
Possibly better ways to do this... but ability to toggle on/off is definitively the more fun way to go.

2: Werewolf specially are poor on the skill side...They need more skills, to be more engaging and fun to play...the skills i made, use things already in game.

skill 1: Leap. already in the game. no change.

skill 2: Infectious claws. already in the game. no change.

skill 3: Piercing howl. already in the game. small change.
Change: Howl of Despair morph, is now also a taunt.... taunt enemies for 10 seconds, and reduce their dmg caused by 5%.

skill 4: Roar, already in the game. Big change.
Morph Change:1: Ferocious Roar: NO FEAR, Off balance 7 seconds, 35% faster heavy attacks for 7 seconds,
Passive Increase Heavy attack dmg by 10%.

Morph Change 2: Deafening Roar: NO FEAR, Apply Major Fracture (-5948 armor) for 10 seconds, 35% faster light attacks for 7 seconds.
Passive increase Light attack dmg by 10%,

skill 5: Hircine´s Bounty. already in the game. no change.

---

These are the new skills, all skills can already be found in game in one form or another with some tweaks/changes.

skill 6: New skill: Unstoppable charge: 3400 Stamina cost.
Charge forward 3 - 22 meters, Enemies in the way will be pushed aside, and stunned for 2 second, and off-balance for 6 seconds.
Deal moderate dmg.
Morph 1: Big Increased dmg, but no longer stun, still off-balance 6 seconds. Increase dmg of next heavy attack by 15%.
Morph 2: Deal less dmg, increase stun to 4 seconds, and increase light attack dmg by 10% for 4 seconds.

skill 7: New skill: Ground Slam: 7 meter AoE. 3300 Stamina cost.
Deal AoE dmg, and snare enemies 50% for 5 seconds.
Morph 1: cause less dmg, bigger AoE 9 Meter, cause snare, and apply minor fracture and minor breach on enemies for 10 seconds. ( -1320 armor / spell resist).
Morph 2: deal increased dmg, smaller AoE 5 meter, but also stun for 2 seconds. No longer snare.

skill 8: New skill. Rugged Hide: 3600 Stamina cost.
Increase physical armor by 3000 for 20 seconds.
Morph 1: Decrease armor buff to 2000, but also give spell resists 2000.
Morph 2: Increase the physical armor further. 4000.

skill 9: New skill: Rallying Howl: 3600 Magicka cost.
Make a Howl to Rallying allies (and self) for 9 seconds. Give: Minor Heroism. Grant 1 Ultimate every 1.5 second for 9 seconds.
Morph 1: Give to self and allies: Minor heroism and Minor expedition (+10% movement speed).
Morph 2: Give to self and allies: Major expedition + 30% movement speed. but no longer give Heroism to allies, only self)

skill 10: New skill: Frenzied Blood Sacrifice. HP cost. duration: 10 seconds, can not be healed by allies for the duration, and can NOT use Hircine´s healing ability for duration!!!!!!!!.
Sacrifice your own hp 10%, to temporarily increase your dmg +10%. also reduce hp recovery by 30% for duration.
Morph 1: Sacrifice 20% hp, to gain +20% dmg. Also reduce Hp recovery by 70% for duration.
Morph 2: Sacrifice 50% hp, to gain +50% dmg. Also reduce Hp recovery by 100% for duration.


PACK LEADER: Tank form.
skill ULTIMATE: MASTERS HOWL. cost 300 ultimate.
Activating ultimate in WW-form will cause MASTERS HOWL, high lighting current target, and bolstering allies(and self) to deal +10% dmg to target for 15 seconds.

Base stats: (same as normal)
+30% max stamina
+30% sprint speed.
+15 % stamina recovery.
+25% dmg from poison.
+20% dmg from fighters guild skills.
Minor Brutality + 10% weapon dmg.

Extra for Pack Leader:
10% less dmg taken.
-20% to all dmg dealt. (the pack kills for you).
+20% max hp.
+20% hp recovery.
+5280 armor /spell resist. (self only) (Major Resolve, Major Ward).
Presence of Master, give allies and self +10% dmg to light attacks.
Summons 2 dire wolves. (they have no taunt, only deal small extra dmg).


BERZERKER: Dps form.
Skill ULTIMATE: RAGE. cost 300 ultimate.
Activating ultimate in WW-form will cause giant form: (the new big WW form), and increase all dmg 15% for 15 seconds.

Base stats: (same as normal).
+30% max stamina
+30% sprint speed.
+15 % stamina recovery.
+25% dmg from poison.
+20% dmg from fighters guild skills.
Minor Brutality + 10% weapon dmg.

Extra for Berzerker form:
Minor Berzerk + 10% to all dmg dealt.
- 5280 armor / spell resist. (Major fracture, Major Breach).
+20 % extra stamina recovery. (35% total with base)
Dreadful presence, give allies and self +10% dmg to heavy attacks
Heavy attacks splash dmg and deal 50% AoE.
Heavy attacks Cause Bleeding. 4000 dmg over 6 seconds, stack 3 times. (12000 over 6 seconds).
Give to allies and self: Major Courage. +258 weapon/spell dmg.

---

So how would i make new armor sets?.
I would make sure to make them more interesting.
I can give three here, to not make to big wall of text.

Frenzied Berzerker set: While in Werewolf or Vampire form, also give appearance of blood dripping claws/hands. (collection, to toggle on/off).
1: Increase Maximum Stamina by 1100.
2: Increase Maximum Health by 1100.
3: Reduce armor by 1500, Reduce spell resist by 1500 on self.
4: increase stamina and magicka recovery by 129
5: Give life steal, heal 5% of all dmg done, and increase light and heavy attack speed by 20%.

Werewolf / Vampire monster set. Razor Claws. (appearance of slightly more lighted/shiny claws, toggle on/off). add claws to human form.
1: Adds 2000 physical and spell penetration.
2: While transformed to werewolf or vampire, Give razor claws, increase all dmg done by 5%, and increase maximum HP by 1500. (No more procs).

Plagued Fur set. While in WW or vamp form, give appearance of green spikes on back. (collection toggle on/off). ONLY show spikes in WW or vamp form!!!.
1: Increase maximum Health by 1500
2: Increase maximum stamina and magicka by 1500
3: Increase armor and spell resist by 1500.
4: Increase health recovery by 150
5: Gain Spiked armor, enemies that attack you take 1500 dmg (maximum 1 / second) and get debuffed by Major Defile, reduce their healing recieved by 16%, and health recovery by 30% for 5 seconds.


Appearance changes for Werewolf and Vampire.
They are pretty weak and few as it is in game right now.
I would like to see much more... but if so, keep them separated still. So keep the Pack leader white and add light/bright color theme... and Berzerker have more dark theme.
The armor sets i did above is made so both can have.

And also, these new appearances, what ever they may be, could be added in different areas for achievements...And of course, it should be made able to toggle on/off under collection.
Example: 1: kill 10.000 humanoids, and you get Blood splatter on your fur / skin.
Example: 2: kill 100.000 demons, and you get tainted, and given a corrupted cloud aura.
Example: 3: If you kill boss X, on veteran super hard mega mode, you get X appearance reward.

Now, these are just some ideas.
They should of course be tested and tweaked.
And i did not put Vampire ideas here, as that would be way too much to have at the same spot.

Anyways, feel free to tear into this and point out good / bad things, and even modify.

WhereArtThouVampires

Absolutely LOVE this idea as it essentially allows the class to be the 'actual' player class without completely removing the option of using class skills. As we see in NPCs in game, while they have a base class, it's often not used too much in combination with their affliction. It more or less acts as a 'flavor' or, ironically, an 'addition' to their main class which is the werewolf/vampire affliction. I feel like these changes would promote that style more so than the current iterations.

The first thing I'd suggest is perhaps giving mortals their own CP or world tree that gets marked out upon becoming one of these new classes. I'd argue that the mortal tree shouldn't have many actives (at max, like, 1-2), but on the theme of creating specific sets for ww/vamp, you could easily create some mortal-only sets too.

Or even better, put passives into the fighter guild skill line that vampires and werewolves cannot access.


Here's my suggestion for werewolves:

What if in this new iteration they had a few abilities outside of the form too? Not a full set of 10 abilities, but abilities that maybe could synergize with the transformation-toggle. Like....if you use this 'roar of rage' in human form, the next time you transform into a werewolf you'll have a bonus.

Where as for vampires, I'd love to see a more-transformation based play style for them. Ideally, out-of-form they'd have just Vampiric Drain and Mist Form. Or, at the max, 5 abilities that can transfer well to the transformation state. Also.....
MAKE MESMERIZE AN ADD-ON TO THE BASE VAMPIRE 'FEED' PASSIVE OR ADD IT ONTO BLOOD RITUAL that acts more like the intimidate/persuade chat options in the mage/fighters guild line. There absolutely no reason for this skill to be an active skill when there are way better CC options in the game and when its prime function is used for talking to NPCs. No idea why a skill slot is wasted on this ability.

Speaking of, add something onto both blood ritual and blood moon or move them to the base part of the line entirely and replace them with something actually useful. Absolutely 0 reason why an entire passive slot should be taken up by something that gives absolutely nothing/that can't be just freely tacked onto the base feed/devour passives.

I think one thing we both can agree on is vampire needs to be made into a proper vampire lord and they could easily give Behemoth to werewolf in some shape or form.

Back to what I love about this, though: It makes us not only feel more like NPC vamps/WWs, but gives us such an immersive and extensive play style than what we already have. Best part is? All abilities that could be added to both vamp and werewolf already exist in the game. They, quite literally, would have to do minimal animation updates for these new abilities.

You could even snag the ultimate for the vamp-form ult (the ultimate you get when in scion form) from vampire lords in game. I always thought a neat vampire-lord ultimate would be that ability that teleports the vampire lord to a target and they go inside of them and deal continuous damage to them and allies around them for a duration.

Some people might say that this endeavor would be a waste of time and resources, but I have proof that says the exact opposite: Many people play this game for the simple fact that it's the **ONLY** MMO in existence where players can alter their base class by becoming a vampire/werewolf.

This is a huge, untapped gold mine ESO is just sitting on for some reason. Imagine if we had a mortal skill line too that got replaced with a vampire/werewolf one upon being infected.

Im not asking for Twilight Online here. But afflictions are very important and crucial in the ES world and ZOS has the perfect opportunity right in front of them to make a really profitable thing happen. How would this be profitable? Well, if you flesh out the vampire/werewolf system you can start selling vampire/werewolf (maybe even mortal-only) cosmetics. Im talking unique mounts (looking at you bat-swarm form and wolf-form), cosmetic options/motifs (Werewolf/vampire lord armor??), etc. Not to mention the fact that Im 100% certain a fully fleshed out affliction system would bring a crap ton of people into the game from their respective vampire/werewolf fandoms.

There's an insane drought in vampire/werewolf multiplayer games. And adding a fully fleshed out system to ESO that doesn't take away from ES and simply **adds* * more to the immersion of the world would be astounding.

Because, realistically, in ES I should be able to have specific gear meant for vamps. I should be able to have a full set of vampire or werewolf abilities on both bars if Im playing around the transformation part of my subclass.

Which, by the way, we need to stop pretending that vampire shouldn't be transformation-based. While I agree some passives and, again, vampiric drain and mist form at most should be used outside of the form.....the fact of the matter is a full on transformation style of gameplay (With some skills and passives outside of the form instead of all skills) would be way easier to balance. Especially when comparing to werewolves.

The fact that vampires get access to all of their abilities and passives outside of their form is a big design flaw that cripples them both in power, creativity, and transformation-wise. Cause at the moment it basically means their transformation isn't really a transformation. More like a 20 second buff and that's it.

Should be noted while in form, I imagine both vampiric drain, mist form, and whatever abilities outside of their form would be upgraded/have alternative effects whilst keeping the base line thematic. Example: Vampiric drain in Skyrim going from a single-target blood stream basically to an AoE blood ball. I don't expect something that visually different, but they could easily make vampiric drain also latch onto targets near the initial target like a big blood-web. Which would be epic as heck. As for mist form, in vampire-lord form it could move faster and maybe restore a small amount of magicka if you pass through enemies. Little bonus effects like that for the two abilities they'd have outside of their transformation would be neat.

This could also be a unique design point that can differ from werewolves. Where vampires get upgraded/alternative effects for some of their abilities while in their form, werewolf's very few abilities outside of the form would be their own thing that simply synergize with getting themselves amped up their transformation.

That said, what would fleshing out these two skill lines do aside from all that I've mentioned thus far?

It'd PUT THE DEVS on the road to figuring out how to make each class stand out. Personally, it'd break the ice of their no-more-than-5-skills-to-a-line phobia. Imagine a world where instead of 15 base skills per class, we as players had 30 or even 22 to choose from. You might argue 'well, my guy, we only have 12 ability bars. So, I'd be overwhelmed!!!' That's where I'd tell you that having only 12 ability slots with an increased number of possible skills would encourage you to pick out how you want to build your character wisely. And, ideally, with the addition of new skills beyond the cap of 5 in each skill line that'd lead to more play styles being opened up vs skills just being added that are objectively better. Im talking, like, if someone wants to be a conjuration sorcerer they'll be able to slot 10 skills and two ultimates based on their daedric summoning tree.

Effectively what these changes to vampire/werewolf would do is open the devs up to basically *allowing, not forcing* subclasses with the skill lines. Which I think is amazing. You, as a player, would be free to pick from any skill line from your class and craft your own combination. Or you could go full-into one skill line and have both bars and both ults themed around that one thematic.

If a necromancer wanted to base their entire play style around raising temporary undead and buffing them, they could. If another necromancer wanted to be a bone-armored tank who impales people on bones and stuff, they could. If this other necro over here wanted to be more of a debuffer/supportive class through unorthodox healing, THEY COULD.

Essentially, the game and classes as we know it would be cracked open with possibilities. Especially if zos balances it around by identifying the core play styles of each class. For example: Gravelord in Necromancer could be entirely balanced around catering to the 'summoning' play style. Likewise for Daedric Summoning in Sorcerer. Meanwhile stormcalling in sorcerer would cater around lightning based damage and abilities and give you bonuses for playing around them vs class wide bonuses. (Obviously not saying remove class wide bonuses, but add bonuses that give flavor to a specific play style of the class)


In conclusion, these changes would open up a lot more for the game even if you don't like vampires/werewolves. And it would also work to solve the issue of Class Diversity and lack of proper thematic gameplay

ZOS needs to move away from the stupid 5-skill 1-ult skill line limit they've set up for themselves. And they also need to start giving players that share classes with NPCs those npc skills. It's immersion breaking when X class/vampire and werewolf are doing things I literally cannot learn how to do.

Eldain333

I know that people hate werewolves now in PvP, and would rather them not exist at all.
But their existence is not the problem... Proc sets are, and everyone that actually play the game, knows how easy it would be to fix this... either give the proc gear a negative effect for the user...(This would make things a lot more interesting also)...
or reduce their dmg.

The ideas is simply to make it more fun and enjoyable to play a werewolf or vampire, by having more skills and options.

So, besides the current hate for tanky werewolves in PvP.
What are your thoughts on this then people.

Stahlor

Werewolfs in PVP are tanky, heal in 1s back to full health, have extrem high mobility, you get constantly slowed or feared. Especially the slows/stuns/fears are way over the top. While one of them is still kind of ok, a few of them is just ridiculous.

Ryuvain

Stuff like this is what I wanted when I played. More immersive stuff that you can't just become and forget about (you have to use your added class stuff.) Really cool ideas.

caperb

Ehm I haven't read it all because I only have a short break now, but you do realise that werewolves are very very strong atm. Even in the no proc test meta you see a lot of tanky werewolves that deal quite some damage as well. Seems like a lot of people actually do find werewolves engaging to play right now.

Eldain333

To: caperb and Stahlor

---

I know that Werewolf are very op strong atm.
But if you analyze the problem, you see that there are 2 things to blame, and not just the werewolf.

1: the MAJOR problem, is the proc sets in game!!!. i think everyone agree on this...so why it is not fixed i do not understand.
Personally, i would solve the problem by giving dmg proc sets a negative stat, reduce the survivability to gain the dmg.
Let the high dmg proc sets sacrifice a lot of survivability... like, reduce 2000 hp, or reduce 2000 armor... etc etc.
That will make things far more interesting and give some balance.

2: The werewolf atm is badly designed... They do not have distinct roles with pros/cons.
The pack leader werewolf (White, tank), hardly sacrifice anything.

Vevvev

Well written but vampires in the Elder Scrolls for the longest time never had a concept of a monster transformation till Skyrim. They've always been stronger than a mortal in their "human" form so when I read "2: If you are WW or vamp, you feel weakened in your human form, and stronger in your beast form... Human = -15 % on all stats... Beast = stronger." I sadly have to disagree with you OP.

I'd much rather the Blood Scion form scrapped and discarded so we can get Bat Swarm back then be forced to use that disgusting uncustomizable form for the longest duration of our play sessions.

Eldain333

Vevvev wrote: »

Well written but vampires in the Elder Scrolls for the longest time never had a concept of a monster transformation till Skyrim. They've always been stronger than a mortal in their "human" form so when I read "2: If you are WW or vamp, you feel weakened in your human form, and stronger in your beast form... Human = -15 % on all stats... Beast = stronger." I sadly have to disagree with you OP.
I'd much rather the Blood Scion form scrapped and discarded so we can get Bat Swarm back then be forced to use that disgusting uncustomizable form for the longest duration of our play sessions.

Yes, i know exactly what you are after there... And i do also agree with you... but, the idea that i made them weaker in human form is to show case that you have given yourself fully to Hircine or Molag Bal, to be their champion.
You still have a human form, but the powers within are strong, and can not be fully unleashed unless you transform.
Which is also why you have the Toggle on/off even for Vampires.

Very simply explained:
If you want, you can see it as a Sugar rush... When you are transformed, you have full energy..
And when you revert back to human form, the sugar rush drops you, and you feel weakened.

Why you can see more than one werewolf or vampire, is simple, you are still fighting to prove to your master that YOU are the strongest one of your kin, and that YOU are the one that should get his boon and attention.

The Vampire would also need a transformation of sort.
But could be even further developed with the idea for collecting achievement that can change your appearance.
So, if you do not like a certain form, you hunt for achievement to change it.
This would also make it more fun, as everyone is not looking like a clone.

Starlock

I don't think the intention design-wise is to have nearly everything of a character revolve around vampirism/lycanthropy. That hasn't been the case in previous Elder Scrolls game, and fittingly it isn't the case in this one either. Making this work the way the OP wants would best be done with an entirely separate class template. Even better, in an entirely different game focused on these two things. There've been tabletop RPGs (e.g., World of Darkness) that do this and computer RPGs inspired from these roots (e.g., Vampire The Masquerade - Bloodlines).

Iccotak

Were-Crocodile skin, that’s what I want

Eldain333

Starlock wrote: »

I don't think the intention design-wise is to have nearly everything of a character revolve around vampirism/lycanthropy. That hasn't been the case in previous Elder Scrolls game, and fittingly it isn't the case in this one either. Making this work the way the OP wants would best be done with an entirely separate class template. Even better, in an entirely different game focused on these two things. There've been tabletop RPGs (e.g., World of Darkness) that do this and computer RPGs inspired from these roots (e.g., Vampire The Masquerade - Bloodlines).

RPG´s are all about not being a clone warrior... giving options to players.
So should it not be for the players to decide if they want play more focused werewolf or vampire??.
And if so, there need to be more options to do such.

Previous Elder scroll games have special groups that are werewolves.
Skyrim for example, the fighters guild... the leaders are Werewolves, and they are also stronger in beast form than human form.
Even in current ESO there are Werewolf and Vampire Npcs that are leaders.
But you do not have the ability to join them, and learn more.
You can see it as a Fighters guild if you want, but specific for werewolf and vampire... and you unlock more skills and options that way.

There was even a DLC for Skyrim, Dawnguard, that further developed and explored werewolves and vampires.

The oldest accounts to find Werewolves seem to be in Arena Daggerfall.
Sure, they were mainly seen at night, and have no real specific groups yet... (that happened in the other games forward).

So, Having ESO, developing and exploring the werewolf and vampire part like they did in Dawnguard, would more than likely become very interesting for people to explore and use... and it would still be LORE, and not game breaking as you think.
HELL, even if you had that as a Crown store special and not a DLC... so you will not unlock it, even if you are eso+.
People would buy it.

And if you also have the old Werewolf beast appearance costume... and make others, people would buy them.

So it does not matter how you see it, Werewolves and vampires are pretty much in the core lore of the Elder scrolls.
And it SHOULD be more explored.

WhereArtThouVampires

Starlock wrote: »

I don't think the intention design-wise is to have nearly everything of a character revolve around vampirism/lycanthropy. That hasn't been the case in previous Elder Scrolls game, and fittingly it isn't the case in this one either. Making this work the way the OP wants would best be done with an entirely separate class template. Even better, in an entirely different game focused on these two things. There've been tabletop RPGs (e.g., World of Darkness) that do this and computer RPGs inspired from these roots (e.g., Vampire The Masquerade - Bloodlines).

We aren't trying to make everything design-wise have to revolve around vampirism/lycanthropy. We're trying to make vampirism and lyucanthropy behave more like it does in the actual Elder Scrolls world.

Very sad you intentionally misinterpret giving the game more immersive options as making the entire class design of the whole game based around vampires/werewolves. When in reality these changes would just add more in depth choices for the player to make. Y'know....that whole RPG thing. Especially if they added a tree/bonuses for remaining mortal too.

And no, this WOULD NOT fit into an entirely different game. This is literally how the world of Elder Scrolls is. If you hate making the gameplay reflect the actual world by giving more in depth options to being a mortal vs having an affliction then there are plenty of other fantasy worlds without such a focus.

Never understood people who see wanting to make mortality/vampirism/and lycanthropy have more immersive choices that literally reflect what NPCs are in ES and the actual lore within the game itself as 'projecting a desire to make ESO a game that it is not' when literally the supporting lore, abilities, and influences is right there.


As I posted, this would OPEN THE DOOR to more immersive design with more than just vampire/werewolf. But if you completely disregard making this part of the game more immersive then there's no reason for them to even try it with the actual classes.

You're also wrong by saying this hasn't been the case in any other ES game. In Skyrim there was literally an entire DLC based around vampires that gave vamps a complete over haul, their own LARGE skill line, and gave werewolves the same. Both essentially becoming full on classes.

Also in Morrowind there were three houses of vampires you could join that drastically changed your play style and character and came with their own story. Pretending like vampires/werewolves are not an important, vastly developed part of the ES world is simply choosing to ignore the lore of the game.

Starlock

Eldain333 wrote: »

RPG´s are all about not being a clone warrior... giving options to players.
So should it not be for the players to decide if they want play more focused werewolf or vampire??.

It goes without saying that a hallmark of RPGs is presenting multiple options for how to play a character. The types of options presented depends on the game systems and game design. So while the player does get to decide how they play the game, they are also forced to do this within the framework set up by the game.

Elder Scrolls online has vampires and werewolves in it but it is not a game system that focuses on either of those two things. To put it another way, core game mechanics don't revolve it like they do in a game like Vampire: Bloodlines. It's a secondary system that's been more or less supported in different titles, to varying degrees of success. The treatment these secondary systems have gotten in ESO is pretty darned good considering it's not the core focus of the game.

I mention all this mostly because I am looking at this from a developer or game design standpoint more than a player preferences standpoint. As a player, I sure wouldn't mind more options for vampire/werewolf characters (or any characters, frankly) but I also know they're not going to give these niche play styles special treatment. In order for them to do what you ask, the underlying design principles would need to be applied more broadly. For example, no skill line in the game has more than 5 active skills and one ultimate. Giving any skill line more than this would make it a rule breaker, which a developer isn't going to do without good reason. So if they do this, they would probably apply additional skills and ultimates more broadly to many, many skill lines.

Would that be pretty cool? Yeah, it just might! In the mean time, I accept ESO probably isn't trying to be that game design-wise and will probably never be that game design-wise. It's off to roll some polyhedral dice if I want the ultimate freeform RPG experience!

Eldain333

To Starlock:

---

I am looking at this from programming design view, and if it would be difficult or not.
Which is why my ideas, are made to be easy to make and implement... The skills i have, are already in the game... just a different form... so they mainly need a tweak/change/add.

Funny that you mention that you should only be allowed to have 5 skills for vampire and werewolf.

Vampires can use their skills outside of a transformation...
And thereby also have access to all other skills, INCLUDING Barswap!!!.
a Werewolf does not, it only has 5.
So you have one part that is already breaking your rule... so you can not have that as excuse.
It just further show how bad it is right now.
And just having ability to barswap and access to more abilities to use, would be MASSIVE improvement.
And it is still such stupidly simple thing to do!!!!!.

Easiest possible way would be to just add a new Guild Faction / World faction tab... Grey-Mane. (or something).
And there you can unlock 5 new skills, and 2 new ultimates...(the new master and berzerker form).
Requirement would be that you have Lycanthropy to use the skills.

And if you want it to be more fitted into LORE.
You can have it so that your current basic 5 slot form is just a mind less beast, and to unlock the new skills, you need to prove to the Grey-Manes that you are not just a mindless beast, and worthy of learning new skills, and truly become a champion of Hircine.
Now this can be anything, you could need to kill a few special bosses on Veteran dungeon mode... just as example.

IF you have Lycanthropy, and Grey-Mane tab unlocked.
You kill X boss, and you unlock X skill.
You kill Y boss, you unlock Y skill.
(or they drop a specific item that you need to bring back).

It could be made even easier if you take and release it in steps.
(note: this could also be made for vampire).
1: Starting with giving 5 more skills with a new faction/world tab, and barswap. <<---- Most important thing.
2: Adding the new ultimate master and berzerker form and stats.
3: Adding new cosmetics in the crown store for werewolf, the more variation the better.
4: Add new achievements to unlock cosmetics. the more the better.
5: Adding a new CP tree.
and so on.

WhereArtThouVampires

Starlock wrote: »

Eldain333 wrote: »

RPG´s are all about not being a clone warrior... giving options to players.
So should it not be for the players to decide if they want play more focused werewolf or vampire??.

It goes without saying that a hallmark of RPGs is presenting multiple options for how to play a character. The types of options presented depends on the game systems and game design. So while the player does get to decide how they play the game, they are also forced to do this within the framework set up by the game.

Elder Scrolls online has vampires and werewolves in it but it is not a game system that focuses on either of those two things. To put it another way, core game mechanics don't revolve it like they do in a game like Vampire: Bloodlines. It's a secondary system that's been more or less supported in different titles, to varying degrees of success. The treatment these secondary systems have gotten in ESO is pretty darned good considering it's not the core focus of the game.

I mention all this mostly because I am looking at this from a developer or game design standpoint more than a player preferences standpoint. As a player, I sure wouldn't mind more options for vampire/werewolf characters (or any characters, frankly) but I also know they're not going to give these niche play styles special treatment. In order for them to do what you ask, the underlying design principles would need to be applied more broadly. For example, no skill line in the game has more than 5 active skills and one ultimate. Giving any skill line more than this would make it a rule breaker, which a developer isn't going to do without good reason. So if they do this, they would probably apply additional skills and ultimates more broadly to many, many skill lines.

Would that be pretty cool? Yeah, it just might! In the mean time, I accept ESO probably isn't trying to be that game design-wise and will probably never be that game design-wise. It's off to roll some polyhedral dice if I want the ultimate freeform RPG experience!

These 'secondary' systems such as vampire and werewolf are a gold mine for ESO. As not a single other MMO has a secondary subclass affliction system that changes how your character plays. So, expanding them would be an obvious boon as MMOs struggle to stand out among one another. I know people who would actively play ESO if the mortal/vamp/werewolf part of the game were more fleshed out. That's just the facts. It's a unique part of the ES world that they could certainly exploit to draw in a lot of people.

ZoS is actively losing money for not having fleshed out their golden, unique goose of 'secondary afflictions/skill lines' way more than they have. This transcends more than just vampire/werewolf. I'm talking mortal-only line, daedric worshipper lines, maybe even a lich line.

Also, some skill lines in the game have less than 5 skills, so what's stopping them from going over 5 with that thought in mind? They've already broken the core '5 skill' rule. Allow me to explain why your reasoning for why this would be 'rule breaking' and go against the game's design is also wrong. Take a gander real quick at other games. Look at WoW. Some classes have more specs (skill lines) than other classes. Look at a game like League of Legends. Every champ had 4 abilities and 1 passive until they decided to break into giving some champions 10 abilities and others only 1-2 abilities.

Basically, what I'm getting at here is games breaking this 'skill limit' rule is very common in games and NOT a bad thing like you seem to think it is. It adds variety to the game and opens up more creative options.

Also, it goes against you saying a developer would never do such a thing without good reason. I'd argue creating more in depth and diverse options for players IS a good reason (;

ESO progressing towards adding more skills to classes and these secondary lines to make them more deep and immersive is **vital** for the game's survival in the future. So, while the game may not be trying to be that at this moment, it doesn't mean that it should stay exactly as it is.

Imagine how crazy 1 new skill line per class would be as a base-game chapter feature? Or 3 new skills and 3 new ultimates per class?

It is vital the game expands what we as players can do with our classes. Especially if they keep adding in NPCs with abilities that are very cool and unique that could fit in our existing classes. Why do I say this? Because if they design a really cool animation/skill for, lets say, a templar NPC. Why not give it in an update to players? You can see an example of this in the Death Hunters from Greymoor. The templar variant can leap up into the air and then fall down in a blast of light on a location. They more than likely didn't have the tech to design that back then, but they could now.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

Why would a Blood Scion be weaker in their Human form when most Vampires in the lore cannot transform into these sorts of things, not every Vampire is a Vampire Lord, that would be like saying that every Necromancer was a Lich.

The only thing I agree with is giving the transformations an ultimate they can use when transformed, the Blood Scion could gain the Clouding Swam Bat Teleportation Vampires use to have, for 50 ultimate rush towards an enemy in a cloud of bats doing XXXX damage.

Ryuvain

WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

Eldain333 wrote: »

RPG´s are all about not being a clone warrior... giving options to players.
So should it not be for the players to decide if they want play more focused werewolf or vampire??.

It goes without saying that a hallmark of RPGs is presenting multiple options for how to play a character. The types of options presented depends on the game systems and game design. So while the player does get to decide how they play the game, they are also forced to do this within the framework set up by the game.

Elder Scrolls online has vampires and werewolves in it but it is not a game system that focuses on either of those two things. To put it another way, core game mechanics don't revolve it like they do in a game like Vampire: Bloodlines. It's a secondary system that's been more or less supported in different titles, to varying degrees of success. The treatment these secondary systems have gotten in ESO is pretty darned good considering it's not the core focus of the game.

I mention all this mostly because I am looking at this from a developer or game design standpoint more than a player preferences standpoint. As a player, I sure wouldn't mind more options for vampire/werewolf characters (or any characters, frankly) but I also know they're not going to give these niche play styles special treatment. In order for them to do what you ask, the underlying design principles would need to be applied more broadly. For example, no skill line in the game has more than 5 active skills and one ultimate. Giving any skill line more than this would make it a rule breaker, which a developer isn't going to do without good reason. So if they do this, they would probably apply additional skills and ultimates more broadly to many, many skill lines.

Would that be pretty cool? Yeah, it just might! In the mean time, I accept ESO probably isn't trying to be that game design-wise and will probably never be that game design-wise. It's off to roll some polyhedral dice if I want the ultimate freeform RPG experience!

These 'secondary' systems such as vampire and werewolf are a gold mine for ESO. As not a single other MMO has a secondary subclass affliction system that changes how your character plays. So, expanding them would be an obvious boon as MMOs struggle to stand out among one another. I know people who would actively play ESO if the mortal/vamp/werewolf part of the game were more fleshed out. That's just the facts. It's a unique part of the ES world that they could certainly exploit to draw in a lot of people.

ZoS is actively losing money for not having fleshed out their golden, unique goose of 'secondary afflictions/skill lines' way more than they have. This transcends more than just vampire/werewolf. I'm talking mortal-only line, daedric worshipper lines, maybe even a lich line.

Also, some skill lines in the game have less than 5 skills, so what's stopping them from going over 5 with that thought in mind? They've already broken the core '5 skill' rule. Allow me to explain why your reasoning for why this would be 'rule breaking' and go against the game's design is also wrong. Take a gander real quick at other games. Look at WoW. Some classes have more specs (skill lines) than other classes. Look at a game like League of Legends. Every champ had 4 abilities and 1 passive until they decided to break into giving some champions 10 abilities and others only 1-2 abilities.

Basically, what I'm getting at here is games breaking this 'skill limit' rule is very common in games and NOT a bad thing like you seem to think it is. It adds variety to the game and opens up more creative options.

Also, it goes against you saying a developer would never do such a thing without good reason. I'd argue creating more in depth and diverse options for players IS a good reason (;

ESO progressing towards adding more skills to classes and these secondary lines to make them more deep and immersive is **vital** for the game's survival in the future. So, while the game may not be trying to be that at this moment, it doesn't mean that it should stay exactly as it is.

Imagine how crazy 1 new skill line per class would be as a base-game chapter feature? Or 3 new skills and 3 new ultimates per class?

It is vital the game expands what we as players can do with our classes. Especially if they keep adding in NPCs with abilities that are very cool and unique that could fit in our existing classes. Why do I say this? Because if they design a really cool animation/skill for, lets say, a templar NPC. Why not give it in an update to players? You can see an example of this in the Death Hunters from Greymoor. The templar variant can leap up into the air and then fall down in a blast of light on a location. They more than likely didn't have the tech to design that back then, but they could now.

I admit I mostly play this game for werewolves and vampires. Multiplayer is another reason but not as major. I could easily go back to skyrim if those reasons weren't decent. But they can improve a lot.

It's still annoying how npcs get everything we don't. Werewolf with magic, werewolf behemoth, werewolf lord, vampire lord, vampire skills, vampire teleport, blood knight, etc.

Don't get me started on npc classes.

WhereArtThouVampires

Ryuvain wrote: »

WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

Eldain333 wrote: »

RPG´s are all about not being a clone warrior... giving options to players.
So should it not be for the players to decide if they want play more focused werewolf or vampire??.

It goes without saying that a hallmark of RPGs is presenting multiple options for how to play a character. The types of options presented depends on the game systems and game design. So while the player does get to decide how they play the game, they are also forced to do this within the framework set up by the game.

Elder Scrolls online has vampires and werewolves in it but it is not a game system that focuses on either of those two things. To put it another way, core game mechanics don't revolve it like they do in a game like Vampire: Bloodlines. It's a secondary system that's been more or less supported in different titles, to varying degrees of success. The treatment these secondary systems have gotten in ESO is pretty darned good considering it's not the core focus of the game.

I mention all this mostly because I am looking at this from a developer or game design standpoint more than a player preferences standpoint. As a player, I sure wouldn't mind more options for vampire/werewolf characters (or any characters, frankly) but I also know they're not going to give these niche play styles special treatment. In order for them to do what you ask, the underlying design principles would need to be applied more broadly. For example, no skill line in the game has more than 5 active skills and one ultimate. Giving any skill line more than this would make it a rule breaker, which a developer isn't going to do without good reason. So if they do this, they would probably apply additional skills and ultimates more broadly to many, many skill lines.

Would that be pretty cool? Yeah, it just might! In the mean time, I accept ESO probably isn't trying to be that game design-wise and will probably never be that game design-wise. It's off to roll some polyhedral dice if I want the ultimate freeform RPG experience!

These 'secondary' systems such as vampire and werewolf are a gold mine for ESO. As not a single other MMO has a secondary subclass affliction system that changes how your character plays. So, expanding them would be an obvious boon as MMOs struggle to stand out among one another. I know people who would actively play ESO if the mortal/vamp/werewolf part of the game were more fleshed out. That's just the facts. It's a unique part of the ES world that they could certainly exploit to draw in a lot of people.

ZoS is actively losing money for not having fleshed out their golden, unique goose of 'secondary afflictions/skill lines' way more than they have. This transcends more than just vampire/werewolf. I'm talking mortal-only line, daedric worshipper lines, maybe even a lich line.

Also, some skill lines in the game have less than 5 skills, so what's stopping them from going over 5 with that thought in mind? They've already broken the core '5 skill' rule. Allow me to explain why your reasoning for why this would be 'rule breaking' and go against the game's design is also wrong. Take a gander real quick at other games. Look at WoW. Some classes have more specs (skill lines) than other classes. Look at a game like League of Legends. Every champ had 4 abilities and 1 passive until they decided to break into giving some champions 10 abilities and others only 1-2 abilities.

Basically, what I'm getting at here is games breaking this 'skill limit' rule is very common in games and NOT a bad thing like you seem to think it is. It adds variety to the game and opens up more creative options.

Also, it goes against you saying a developer would never do such a thing without good reason. I'd argue creating more in depth and diverse options for players IS a good reason (;

ESO progressing towards adding more skills to classes and these secondary lines to make them more deep and immersive is **vital** for the game's survival in the future. So, while the game may not be trying to be that at this moment, it doesn't mean that it should stay exactly as it is.

Imagine how crazy 1 new skill line per class would be as a base-game chapter feature? Or 3 new skills and 3 new ultimates per class?

It is vital the game expands what we as players can do with our classes. Especially if they keep adding in NPCs with abilities that are very cool and unique that could fit in our existing classes. Why do I say this? Because if they design a really cool animation/skill for, lets say, a templar NPC. Why not give it in an update to players? You can see an example of this in the Death Hunters from Greymoor. The templar variant can leap up into the air and then fall down in a blast of light on a location. They more than likely didn't have the tech to design that back then, but they could now.

I admit I mostly play this game for werewolves and vampires. Multiplayer is another reason but not as major. I could easily go back to skyrim if those reasons weren't decent. But they can improve a lot.

It's still annoying how npcs get everything we don't. Werewolf with magic, werewolf behemoth, werewolf lord, vampire lord, vampire skills, vampire teleport, blood knight, etc.

Don't get me started on npc classes.

Exactly. You aren't alone. I have many friends that would jump into this game the split second its vampire and werewolf system were as in-depth as Skyrim.

If people don't see the fact that this is only MMO with playable vampires and werewolves in a fantasy world where they're actually a reasonably big deal as a main selling point for the game then idk man. All I know is that MMOs usually strive to milk what unique assets they have and so far ZOS has not done this at all with their affliction system. Despite....it literally being a gold mine.

Absolutely correct on the werewolf with magic, behemoth, vamp lord, etc.

WhereArtThouVampires

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Why would a Blood Scion be weaker in their Human form when most Vampires in the lore cannot transform into these sorts of things, not every Vampire is a Vampire Lord, that would be like saying that every Necromancer was a Lich.

The only thing I agree with is giving the transformations an ultimate they can use when transformed, the Blood Scion could gain the Clouding Swam Bat Teleportation Vampires use to have, for 50 ultimate rush towards an enemy in a cloud of bats doing XXXX damage.

Would this also come with the ability for the Blood Scion to stay in their form longer?

If so, giving them this ultimate would be amazing and I'd love every second of it. They even already have a bat-swarm dash on the vampire lord model that they could easily swap over to this model.

Iccotak

WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »

Ryuvain wrote: »

WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

Eldain333 wrote: »

RPG´s are all about not being a clone warrior... giving options to players.
So should it not be for the players to decide if they want play more focused werewolf or vampire??.

It goes without saying that a hallmark of RPGs is presenting multiple options for how to play a character. The types of options presented depends on the game systems and game design. So while the player does get to decide how they play the game, they are also forced to do this within the framework set up by the game.

Elder Scrolls online has vampires and werewolves in it but it is not a game system that focuses on either of those two things. To put it another way, core game mechanics don't revolve it like they do in a game like Vampire: Bloodlines. It's a secondary system that's been more or less supported in different titles, to varying degrees of success. The treatment these secondary systems have gotten in ESO is pretty darned good considering it's not the core focus of the game.

I mention all this mostly because I am looking at this from a developer or game design standpoint more than a player preferences standpoint. As a player, I sure wouldn't mind more options for vampire/werewolf characters (or any characters, frankly) but I also know they're not going to give these niche play styles special treatment. In order for them to do what you ask, the underlying design principles would need to be applied more broadly. For example, no skill line in the game has more than 5 active skills and one ultimate. Giving any skill line more than this would make it a rule breaker, which a developer isn't going to do without good reason. So if they do this, they would probably apply additional skills and ultimates more broadly to many, many skill lines.

Would that be pretty cool? Yeah, it just might! In the mean time, I accept ESO probably isn't trying to be that game design-wise and will probably never be that game design-wise. It's off to roll some polyhedral dice if I want the ultimate freeform RPG experience!

These 'secondary' systems such as vampire and werewolf are a gold mine for ESO. As not a single other MMO has a secondary subclass affliction system that changes how your character plays. So, expanding them would be an obvious boon as MMOs struggle to stand out among one another. I know people who would actively play ESO if the mortal/vamp/werewolf part of the game were more fleshed out. That's just the facts. It's a unique part of the ES world that they could certainly exploit to draw in a lot of people.

ZoS is actively losing money for not having fleshed out their golden, unique goose of 'secondary afflictions/skill lines' way more than they have. This transcends more than just vampire/werewolf. I'm talking mortal-only line, daedric worshipper lines, maybe even a lich line.

Also, some skill lines in the game have less than 5 skills, so what's stopping them from going over 5 with that thought in mind? They've already broken the core '5 skill' rule. Allow me to explain why your reasoning for why this would be 'rule breaking' and go against the game's design is also wrong. Take a gander real quick at other games. Look at WoW. Some classes have more specs (skill lines) than other classes. Look at a game like League of Legends. Every champ had 4 abilities and 1 passive until they decided to break into giving some champions 10 abilities and others only 1-2 abilities.

Basically, what I'm getting at here is games breaking this 'skill limit' rule is very common in games and NOT a bad thing like you seem to think it is. It adds variety to the game and opens up more creative options.

Also, it goes against you saying a developer would never do such a thing without good reason. I'd argue creating more in depth and diverse options for players IS a good reason (;

ESO progressing towards adding more skills to classes and these secondary lines to make them more deep and immersive is **vital** for the game's survival in the future. So, while the game may not be trying to be that at this moment, it doesn't mean that it should stay exactly as it is.

Imagine how crazy 1 new skill line per class would be as a base-game chapter feature? Or 3 new skills and 3 new ultimates per class?

It is vital the game expands what we as players can do with our classes. Especially if they keep adding in NPCs with abilities that are very cool and unique that could fit in our existing classes. Why do I say this? Because if they design a really cool animation/skill for, lets say, a templar NPC. Why not give it in an update to players? You can see an example of this in the Death Hunters from Greymoor. The templar variant can leap up into the air and then fall down in a blast of light on a location. They more than likely didn't have the tech to design that back then, but they could now.

I admit I mostly play this game for werewolves and vampires. Multiplayer is another reason but not as major. I could easily go back to skyrim if those reasons weren't decent. But they can improve a lot.

It's still annoying how npcs get everything we don't. Werewolf with magic, werewolf behemoth, werewolf lord, vampire lord, vampire skills, vampire teleport, blood knight, etc.

Don't get me started on npc classes.

Exactly. You aren't alone. I have many friends that would jump into this game the split second its vampire and werewolf system were as in-depth as Skyrim.

If people don't see the fact that this is only MMO with playable vampires and werewolves in a fantasy world where they're actually a reasonably big deal as a main selling point for the game then idk man. All I know is that MMOs usually strive to milk what unique assets they have and so far ZOS has not done this at all with their affliction system. Despite....it literally being a gold mine.

Absolutely correct on the werewolf with magic, behemoth, vamp lord, etc.

Skyrim did not have a complex system for werewolves and vampires. Each one had One Simple Skill Tree, just like the ones in ESO have one skill line.

If you wanted an in-depth monster system in Skyrim you had to download mods.

Werewolves and Vampires have always been secondary aspects of the character. Also the Vampire overhaul was all about making the vampire skill line something you actually had to participate in, that already makes it more immersive.

I have a werewolf character but I never really use the skill line, by using the skill line I am automatically changing how I play. The Werewolf itself has multiple choices just like any other skill line.

So no I do not agree with yet another skill line that is werewolf and/or vampire centric. We do not need another one.

Again for me I'd just like to have Skins for the Werewolf like Were-Crocodile. That's a gold mine.

I'm one of those people that don't think every single ability that an enemy has is something that a player should have.

The templar variant can leap up into the air and then fall down in a blast of light on a location.

No Thanks, that ability looks ridiculous and there's good reason to not have that in PvP.

ZaroktheImmortal

Honestly vampires need some form of re-work of a kind. They gave more weaknesses even at stage 1 now have weakness took away the extra stamina/magika recovery at stage 2 but gave us a skill line that's not all that great and they nerfed one of the few abilities worth using.

PaddyVu

Werewolf is very strong in pvp but piece of *** PvE, in cyro, i tri focus a werewolf that doing 15k dps to him, and he just howl over and over again about 15 times and heal to full whenever i bring his health down to 20% ( he has 45k hp ) and i dont even know where is that magicka from when he's trying to howl like that. If u let werewolf can use normal skill like vampire it will become a nightmare for pvp when everyone all want werewolf

WhereArtThouVampires

Iccotak wrote: »

WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »

Ryuvain wrote: »

WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

Eldain333 wrote: »

RPG´s are all about not being a clone warrior... giving options to players.
So should it not be for the players to decide if they want play more focused werewolf or vampire??.

It goes without saying that a hallmark of RPGs is presenting multiple options for how to play a character. The types of options presented depends on the game systems and game design. So while the player does get to decide how they play the game, they are also forced to do this within the framework set up by the game.

Elder Scrolls online has vampires and werewolves in it but it is not a game system that focuses on either of those two things. To put it another way, core game mechanics don't revolve it like they do in a game like Vampire: Bloodlines. It's a secondary system that's been more or less supported in different titles, to varying degrees of success. The treatment these secondary systems have gotten in ESO is pretty darned good considering it's not the core focus of the game.

I mention all this mostly because I am looking at this from a developer or game design standpoint more than a player preferences standpoint. As a player, I sure wouldn't mind more options for vampire/werewolf characters (or any characters, frankly) but I also know they're not going to give these niche play styles special treatment. In order for them to do what you ask, the underlying design principles would need to be applied more broadly. For example, no skill line in the game has more than 5 active skills and one ultimate. Giving any skill line more than this would make it a rule breaker, which a developer isn't going to do without good reason. So if they do this, they would probably apply additional skills and ultimates more broadly to many, many skill lines.

Would that be pretty cool? Yeah, it just might! In the mean time, I accept ESO probably isn't trying to be that game design-wise and will probably never be that game design-wise. It's off to roll some polyhedral dice if I want the ultimate freeform RPG experience!

These 'secondary' systems such as vampire and werewolf are a gold mine for ESO. As not a single other MMO has a secondary subclass affliction system that changes how your character plays. So, expanding them would be an obvious boon as MMOs struggle to stand out among one another. I know people who would actively play ESO if the mortal/vamp/werewolf part of the game were more fleshed out. That's just the facts. It's a unique part of the ES world that they could certainly exploit to draw in a lot of people.

ZoS is actively losing money for not having fleshed out their golden, unique goose of 'secondary afflictions/skill lines' way more than they have. This transcends more than just vampire/werewolf. I'm talking mortal-only line, daedric worshipper lines, maybe even a lich line.

Also, some skill lines in the game have less than 5 skills, so what's stopping them from going over 5 with that thought in mind? They've already broken the core '5 skill' rule. Allow me to explain why your reasoning for why this would be 'rule breaking' and go against the game's design is also wrong. Take a gander real quick at other games. Look at WoW. Some classes have more specs (skill lines) than other classes. Look at a game like League of Legends. Every champ had 4 abilities and 1 passive until they decided to break into giving some champions 10 abilities and others only 1-2 abilities.

Basically, what I'm getting at here is games breaking this 'skill limit' rule is very common in games and NOT a bad thing like you seem to think it is. It adds variety to the game and opens up more creative options.

Also, it goes against you saying a developer would never do such a thing without good reason. I'd argue creating more in depth and diverse options for players IS a good reason (;

ESO progressing towards adding more skills to classes and these secondary lines to make them more deep and immersive is **vital** for the game's survival in the future. So, while the game may not be trying to be that at this moment, it doesn't mean that it should stay exactly as it is.

Imagine how crazy 1 new skill line per class would be as a base-game chapter feature? Or 3 new skills and 3 new ultimates per class?

It is vital the game expands what we as players can do with our classes. Especially if they keep adding in NPCs with abilities that are very cool and unique that could fit in our existing classes. Why do I say this? Because if they design a really cool animation/skill for, lets say, a templar NPC. Why not give it in an update to players? You can see an example of this in the Death Hunters from Greymoor. The templar variant can leap up into the air and then fall down in a blast of light on a location. They more than likely didn't have the tech to design that back then, but they could now.

I admit I mostly play this game for werewolves and vampires. Multiplayer is another reason but not as major. I could easily go back to skyrim if those reasons weren't decent. But they can improve a lot.

It's still annoying how npcs get everything we don't. Werewolf with magic, werewolf behemoth, werewolf lord, vampire lord, vampire skills, vampire teleport, blood knight, etc.

Don't get me started on npc classes.

Exactly. You aren't alone. I have many friends that would jump into this game the split second its vampire and werewolf system were as in-depth as Skyrim.

If people don't see the fact that this is only MMO with playable vampires and werewolves in a fantasy world where they're actually a reasonably big deal as a main selling point for the game then idk man. All I know is that MMOs usually strive to milk what unique assets they have and so far ZOS has not done this at all with their affliction system. Despite....it literally being a gold mine.

Absolutely correct on the werewolf with magic, behemoth, vamp lord, etc.

Skyrim did not have a complex system for werewolves and vampires. Each one had One Simple Skill Tree, just like the ones in ESO have one skill line.

If you wanted an in-depth monster system in Skyrim you had to download mods.

Werewolves and Vampires have always been secondary aspects of the character. Also the Vampire overhaul was all about making the vampire skill line something you actually had to participate in, that already makes it more immersive.

I have a werewolf character but I never really use the skill line, by using the skill line I am automatically changing how I play. The Werewolf itself has multiple choices just like any other skill line.

So no I do not agree with yet another skill line that is werewolf and/or vampire centric. We do not need another one.

Again for me I'd just like to have Skins for the Werewolf like Were-Crocodile. That's a gold mine.

I'm one of those people that don't think every single ability that an enemy has is something that a player should have.

The templar variant can leap up into the air and then fall down in a blast of light on a location.

No Thanks, that ability looks ridiculous and there's good reason to not have that in PvP.

Well, I simply disagree.

Vampire and werewolf in Skyrim had 10 times more depth than what we have in ESO. They had entire quest lines built around them and their skill tree was more in depth than what we have.

And the thing there is that the vampire overhaul failed at what it was trying to do and is widely regarded as being quite bad.

I will agree that werewolves have it better off in terms of gameplay and design, though.

Eldain333

PaddyVu wrote: »

Werewolf is very strong in pvp but piece of *** PvE, in cyro, i tri focus a werewolf that doing 15k dps to him, and he just howl over and over again about 15 times and heal to full whenever i bring his health down to 20% ( he has 45k hp ) and i dont even know where is that magicka from when he's trying to howl like that. If u let werewolf can use normal skill like vampire it will become a nightmare for pvp when everyone all want werewolf

This is a 2 part problem... and not only werewolf to blame.
I have already written about this if you look above in the thread.

Cenj20

Vampire some simple changes that may help:

Reverse Progression "well fed: looks young and unrecognizable to the public as a vamp, when starving not so much (aka Stage 1).

All passives stay same except:

Feed passives:

Health & Flame negatives on feed passive stay the same;

Remove Reg Ability cost increases & Vamp Ability cost decrease.

Replace with below passives:

Vamp Abilities only damage increase. (S1V-0;S2V-15;S3V-30;S4V-45)

Vamp Abilities only cost increase. (S1V-0;S2V-10;S3V-25;S4V-50)

Skills Changes
All Same including ultimate's except;

Arterial Burst (morph); Ranged magic damage Skill

Vapric Drain ; Change all skills to DOTs or direct damage similar to NB ability (swallow soul (morph))

WhereArtThouVampires

Cenj20 wrote: »

Vampire some simple changes that may help:

Reverse Progression "well fed: looks young and unrecognizable to the public as a vamp, when starving not so much (aka Stage 1).

All passives stay same except:

Feed passives:

Health & Flame negatives on feed passive stay the same;

Remove Reg Ability cost increases & Vamp Ability cost decrease.

Replace with below passives:

Vamp Abilities only damage increase. (S1V-0;S2V-15;S3V-30;S4V-45)

Vamp Abilities only cost increase. (S1V-0;S2V-10;S3V-25;S4V-50)

Skills Changes
All Same including ultimate's except;

Arterial Burst (morph); Ranged magic damage Skill

Vapric Drain ; Change all skills to DOTs or direct damage similar to NB ability (swallow soul (morph))

Toss in changing the visuals of Blood Mist to be a bat swarm instead of the weird red pool of mist (It has bite sound effects atm, mind you).

And vampiric drain can be fixed in an even simpler way: Just up the damage and heal to its pre-pts values. Back then it was doing around 9k a tick and healing for up to 60% of your missing HP per tick.

Also, add 5% magicka resource regen onto Drain Vigor. That way it restore 5% stam and 5% magicka, making it an actual worthy thing to take. If this is added, I'd argue Invogorating drain should have it's '3-per-tick' ultimate regen buffed up to 6 per tick or giving the old unique 10% movespeed increase for 30 seconds. (Old Vampiric drain morph) in combination with the 3 ulti gen.

These are pretty simple changes to add onto yours and over all would fix a lot of the more glaring issues with vampire. (I'd even argue these drain changes are simpler than the ones you suggested since this is how the skill used to be pre-pts.)

If they wanted another simple fix to the kit, they should make Perfect Scion's effect something totally different or simply have it apply as a passive when slotted.

Also for the love of god.....PLEASE

please make Vampiric Drain's visuals more dark and bloody like the NPC vampiric drain. Whoever decided we should be draining green mountain dew and golden pee from people as a vampire genuinely needs to have their position at the company questioned.

Especially when the base unmorphed vampiric drain ability actually looks cool.

Also a simple visual indicator on your HP bar that shows the player is under the effect of Blood Frenzy or Blood For Blood would be a nice quality of life thing for groups!

Cenj20

WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »

Cenj20 wrote: »

Vampire some simple changes that may help:

Reverse Progression "well fed: looks young and unrecognizable to the public as a vamp, when starving not so much (aka Stage 1).

All passives stay same except:

Feed passives:

Health & Flame negatives on feed passive stay the same;

Remove Reg Ability cost increases & Vamp Ability cost decrease.

Replace with below passives:

Vamp Abilities only damage increase. (S1V-0;S2V-15;S3V-30;S4V-45)

Vamp Abilities only cost increase. (S1V-0;S2V-10;S3V-25;S4V-50)

Skills Changes
All Same including ultimate's except;

Arterial Burst (morph); Ranged magic damage Skill

Vapric Drain ; Change all skills to DOTs or direct damage similar to NB ability (swallow soul (morph))

Toss in changing the visuals of Blood Mist to be a bat swarm instead of the weird red pool of mist (It has bite sound effects atm, mind you).

And vampiric drain can be fixed in an even simpler way: Just up the damage and heal to its pre-pts values. Back then it was doing around 9k a tick and healing for up to 60% of your missing HP per tick.

Also, add 5% magicka resource regen onto Drain Vigor. That way it restore 5% stam and 5% magicka, making it an actual worthy thing to take. If this is added, I'd argue Invogorating drain should have it's '3-per-tick' ultimate regen buffed up to 6 per tick or giving the old unique 10% movespeed increase for 30 seconds. (Old Vampiric drain morph) in combination with the 3 ulti gen.

These are pretty simple changes to add onto yours and over all would fix a lot of the more glaring issues with vampire. (I'd even argue these drain changes are simpler than the ones you suggested since this is how the skill used to be pre-pts.)

If they wanted another simple fix to the kit, they should make Perfect Scion's effect something totally different or simply have it apply as a passive when slotted.

Also for the love of god.....PLEASE

please make Vampiric Drain's visuals more dark and bloody like the NPC vampiric drain. Whoever decided we should be draining green mountain dew and golden pee from people as a vampire genuinely needs to have their position at the company questioned.

Especially when the base unmorphed vampiric drain ability actually looks cool.

Also a simple visual indicator on your HP bar that shows the player is under the effect of Blood Frenzy or Blood For Blood would be a nice quality of life thing for groups!

Where art thou Vampires:

My main reason for the change of Vapric Drain to a dot or direct damage ability was to rid the skill of the channel time, since it has no stun, its useless in just about any kind of combat and you are correct the health return makes it even a more useless skill since it will get you killed trying to channel it most of the time, unless you break the channel by running away.