Philosophy of a dodge roll (and sprinting)

Orion_89

I often think about the ZOSs who blessed us with this cryptic puzzle... *ahem*
So, I want to talk about why dodge roll and sprintig ever use character's stamina. I know, that it was so in singleplayer games of the series, but in ESO stamina becomes more than a simple body endurance: weapon atacks are no longer require it, there are skills beyond physical abilities and more similar to magic wich costs stamina. So I conclude that stamina is somekind of energy similar to magicka. Nowadays it looks like qi-energy from chinease combat novels, but that's ok. What bothers me is that dodge roll and sprinting still require it and it reduces the strengh of stamina players. Is it really a bad idea to do this two actions independent from stamina bar? Maybe a tiny additional bar will solve this contradiction?

El_Borracho

Dodge roll and blocking basically do the same thing: avoid damage. While I understand that some situations require one over the other (i.e. the Shehai phase of Hel Ra), since both do the same thing they use the same resource. If dodge roll was free, why would anyone use block unless forced to?

As for sprinting, I imagine it has something to do with balancing PVP. If sprinting required no stamina, magicka characters would have an even larger advantage over stamina. But on a more basic level, if sprinting required no stamina, why would you ever walk in PVE or PVP? The devs do want you to fight adds and bosses, which people would gladly sprint past if possible.

jekyto

I disagree on sprinting. Magicka classes have big advantage for using their stamina pool, since block also cost magicka, and their sustain is hilarious.

Orion_89

El_Borracho wrote: »

If dodge roll was free, why would anyone use block unless forced to?

I didn't say it should be free. Dodging and sprinting are abilities that even real human can do, while blocking destructive atacks (of a dragon for example) with a shield or a staff requires some supernatural powers – magic or "stamina".

tsaescishoeshiner

Stamina abilities cost less than Magicka abilities specifically because Stamina is used for dodging/blocking/bashing. It's one main thing that makes playing Stamina feel different from Magicka—your skill-using resource is the same as your combat action resource

Health-Magicka-Stamina is a core part of Elder Scrolls RPGs, and probably not gonna be changed up in ESO. Not that it needs to be IMO because of what I explained above

You're right that Stamina is used like a magical energy in ESO. Blastbones is clearly a magic skill, even if it costs Stamina. I either chalk this up to purely a gameplay feature, or that our characters have learned to channel their physical energies to power spells (like by converting them to Magicka, say)

Orion_89

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

It's one main thing that makes playing Stamina feel different from Magicka—your skill-using resource is the same as your combat action resource

I'm getting the point, but as I said in the start topic, it's strange that weapon atacks don't require the stamina as it was in the single TES games. So the situation with stamina now is somewhere in the middle of what it was in singleplayer games and what I have suggested.

Raideen

jekyto wrote: »

I disagree on sprinting. Magicka classes have big advantage for using their stamina pool, since block also cost magicka, and their sustain is hilarious.

Umm....ya, magicka sustain is nothing right now compared to stamina...in fact its an utter joke.

Vevvev

Raideen wrote: »

jekyto wrote: »

I disagree on sprinting. Magicka classes have big advantage for using their stamina pool, since block also cost magicka, and their sustain is hilarious.

Umm....ya, magicka sustain is nothing right now compared to stamina...in fact its an utter joke.

Probably explains why they added the minor magickasteal to the new magic damage status effect. Would have preferred it if they fixed the problem, but alas they have different plans.

Pencisl2

I would say the need to hold down shift to sprint is the biggest problem. Never had a game make my pinky ache before.

AinSoph

I'm just surprised that Magicka doesn't have a teleport for dodging and a ward for blocking 6 years in the game.

Merllow

jekyto wrote: »

I disagree on sprinting. Magicka classes have big advantage for using their stamina pool, since block also cost magicka, and their sustain is hilarious.

you seem to have confused the words, what are the advantages of magic versus stamina, magic in this game is good only in PVE, and in PVP magic is a free kill to build stamina) Stamina do not think at all about their mana pool and, moreover, on magic regen. And magicians are just ridiculous, they need to take glyphs for stamina regen and expand their stamina pool, otherwise no run, no roll, no release. And if you overdo it, then you end up with a stamina build and everything is fine ahaha. Magic is laughter

Faded

Be careful what you wish for. Stamina abilities cost less and hit harder than magicka abilities because stamina specs have the burden of having to use our largest and most quickly regenerating resource pool to dodge and block. If one of those goes away, so does the other.

Vevvev

AinSoph wrote: »

I'm just surprised that Magicka doesn't have a teleport for dodging and a ward for blocking 6 years in the game.

Psijic Order has the ward while blocking.

Merforum

Faded wrote: »

Be careful what you wish for. Stamina abilities cost less and hit harder than magicka abilities because stamina specs have the burden of having to use our largest and most quickly regenerating resource pool to dodge and block. If one of those goes away, so does the other.

A good solution would be that for block, dodge, sprint, everything other than an actual skill that currently uses stamina was switched to use equal amount of magicka and stamina. Then they could increase Stam skills cost to match Mag and for the first time maybe achieve 'balance'.

VoidCommander

Sorry did you say that STAMINA classes were at a disadvantage because sprint and roll dodge cost stamina? They have the biggest advantage possible because they have enough stamina to actually roll dodge more than once or twice before running out. Granted, unless they use a magicka ability on their bar, their magicka pool is worthless, but there are tons of abilities out there that scale off of max stat but still cost magicka (like soul trap). One of the best things about switching from magplar to stamplar was that in PvP I could use a roll dodge/break free multiple times without running out of stamina. On magplar, I roll once, break free once to escape a DK fossilize, then 8 seconds later I die because I get petrified again and I have no stamina left to do anything about it.

Orion_89

VoidCommander wrote: »

They have the biggest advantage possible because they have enough stamina to actually roll dodge more than once or twice before running out.

Alright, I get the point. But does it mean that this amount of stamina and it's sustainability – nothing more then an attempt to balance it because of lack the possibility to use another resource for the same purpose (dodge, sprint, partly blocking)? I'll say it once more: stamina has become the supernatural power in ESO, and it is no longer the usual endurance. So why such simple actions like dodge and sprinting require mysterious energy? If stamina dodge was, for example, an instant move for several meters (super speed), then it was ok.
And that is why I suggest to make real actions dependent of the completely new resource (endurance or whatever you call it). Or make a high-speed dodge for stamina and teleport for magicka. It is more about logic of things. I know that this is just a game, but I'm sure it is important for immersion.

milllaurie

Pencisl2 wrote: »

I would say the need to hold down shift to sprint is the biggest problem. Never had a game make my pinky ache before.

Rebind it to L ALT and keep shift as secondary if you need to jump. I got used to Alt sprinting since Skyrim and bind it there ever since.

Merforum

Merforum wrote: »

Faded wrote: »

Be careful what you wish for. Stamina abilities cost less and hit harder than magicka abilities because stamina specs have the burden of having to use our largest and most quickly regenerating resource pool to dodge and block. If one of those goes away, so does the other.

A good solution would be that for block, dodge, sprint, everything other than an actual skill that currently uses stamina was switched to use equal amount of magicka and stamina. Then they could increase Stam skills cost to match Mag and for the first time maybe achieve 'balance'.

Oh, and what if roll, sprint, etc used health instead of stam or maybe a little bit of all 3, then it would really be a choice when to do it. Like the morons who run way ahead of everyone in a dungeon, imagine if they had no health when they arrived. Instead of me being the tank and (sprinting to keep up with some moron DPS) then they complain why I can't block with no stam.

Goregrinder

Orion_89 wrote: »

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

It's one main thing that makes playing Stamina feel different from Magicka—your skill-using resource is the same as your combat action resource

I'm getting the point, but as I said in the start topic, it's strange that weapon atacks don't require the stamina as it was in the single TES games. So the situation with stamina now is somewhere in the middle of what it was in singleplayer games and what I have suggested.

The main reason is because ESO is an MMORPG first, and a TES game second. And by "weapon attacks" you're referring to Light, Medium, and Heavy attacks right? This is a design choice to make ESO function like an MMORPG, in order to balance functionality, with fun and usefulness.

Light attacks typically don't do a lot of burst damage unless you dedicate an entire build to it. heavy attacks do more burst damage but at the expense of leaving yourself vulnerable since a heavy attack takes longer to achieve. So letting players cast them for "free" is balanced in the context of MMORPG combat. You have to remember single player games are balanced against NPC's only, while MMORPG's have to be balanced against NPC's and other players. Other MMORPG's have something called "Auto-Attack" which usually costs nothing...it's just "automatic" white damage. ESO, has LA/HA for their white damage. It's free because of that.

Why does dodge roll and sprint cost something? Because of what they provide to the player, which is damage mitigation (as mentioned above). Dodge roll basically mitigates 100% of direct damage for x=amount of seconds. That is as HUGE payout for tapping one button. Sprint is similar in that it helps you avoid damage by getting out of AoE's, and getting out of range of other player's or NPC's. Also getting to something first before someone else is very valuable in MMORPG combat.

So to make sprint and dodge roll "free" would be something that falls too far in the wrong direction on the "is this balanced" scale. But to make Light and Heavy attacks free falls on the right side of that scale. Now should they have given dodge, sprint, etc it's own energy bar from the get go? Sure maybe, as that would have fit the design of other MMORPG's (like Star Trek Online). But they had to sort all of the features into "This is an MMORPG design" and "this is a TES design" box, and sprint/dodge costing stamina was one of the things they decided should be inline with a TES game rather than how it would function in other MMORPGs.

As far as changing it now...well there are too many things that are intertwined with dodge and sprint costing stamina that they would have to spend a lot of time, man power, money, etc just to change it when at the end of the day that change wouldn't really impact the game as a whole that much. It might be something that YOU personally enjoy, but at a larger scale would be such a minimal change it is just not worth trying to change at this point in time. Remember, we are already in the 7th year of ESO, most MMORPG's don't last past 5 years let alone get to 10 years. Maybe in a few years ZOS will decide to throw money at the game and hire 100's of new devs to make drastic changes, but for now if you wanna rolly polly or sprint, I suggest you build accordingly.

MirandaSharp

Funny thing is dodge roll makes you invincible. No damage, no matter how hard you were hit... Now comes the new CP system extending the immunity to damage even further(CC immunity)... So dodge rolling seems to be the 100% mitigation answer. Light and medium armor are already waaaaaay better than anything heavy, so let's see if we can get the dodge rolling with the next update...

Merlin13KAGL

MirandaSharp wrote: »

Funny thing is dodge roll makes you invincible. No damage, no matter how hard you were hit... Now comes the new CP system extending the immunity to damage even further(CC immunity)... So dodge rolling seems to be the 100% mitigation answer. Light and medium armor are already waaaaaay better than anything heavy, so let's see if we can get the dodge rolling with the next update...

AoE and unavoidable skills would like a word.

Sergykid

GW2 has a separate dodge roll bar, which lets you cast it two times with a refill. This refill can be invested into with various bonuses. Doesn't matter how you play, tank or heal, mage or warrior, you still can roll twice in a row until you have to wait.
but ESO can't do this under it's current mechanics, and even if they wanted to it would just be a copy so they wouldn't

Orion_89

Sergykid wrote: »

GW2 has a separate dodge roll bar, which lets you cast it two times with a refill. This refill can be invested into with various bonuses. Doesn't matter how you play, tank or heal, mage or warrior, you still can roll twice in a row until you have to wait.
but ESO can't do this under it's current mechanics, and even if they wanted to it would just be a copy so they wouldn't

ESO already have so much in common with GW2: skyshards — hero points; Cyrodiil/battlegrounds — GVG; barswap — barswap and there are more wich I can't remeber right now.