Debuff for OP werewolves

JessPushToPlay

OK- I don't know if this is ever going to get nerfed or not- but my sister had a great idea.

Suggestion: Over in Cyrodiil, we can use a new Alchemy potion we can put on our weapons that protects us from other alliance werewolves (made from vervain & wolfbane, etc)... It causes the other alliances in Werewolf form to become debuffed in strength & damage.

That- or I have thought for a while now, if they don't nerf the Werewolf skill (at least in PvP), though could at least add a penalty to your stats if you have Werewolf skills active over in Cyrodiil.

Elo106

Werewolf is getting nerfed next patch, instead of 10k resistances they get major resolve.

WabanakiWarrior

Elo106 wrote: »

Werewolf is getting nerfed next patch, instead of 10k resistances they get major resolve.

Won't be enough. It's the health based heal that needs to go. Broken mechanic that should never have been introduced in the game. It encourages people to run stupidly high hp builds. I can penetrate through resistances, but not health. There isn't any counterplay to that.
But this conversation has been had hundreds of times on this forum, to address OP's idea: it's not a poison, but we have a glyph that deals increased damage to vampires (prismatic onslaught), I don't see why we couldn't have something similar to specifically target wws. Don't think it will be enough to balance the class though.

Vevvev

WabanakiWarrior wrote: »

Elo106 wrote: »

Werewolf is getting nerfed next patch, instead of 10k resistances they get major resolve.

Won't be enough. It's the health based heal that needs to go. Broken mechanic that should never have been introduced in the game. It encourages people to run stupidly high hp builds. I can penetrate through resistances, but not health. There isn't any counterplay to that.
But this conversation has been had hundreds of times on this forum, to address OP's idea: it's not a poison, but we have a glyph that deals increased damage to vampires (prismatic onslaught), I don't see why we couldn't have something similar to specifically target wws. Don't think it will be enough to balance the class though.

Prismatic should hurt werewolves to tbh. Like how the Fighter's Guild abilities can hurt them both so to should the Glyph. Might not be the silver bullet but it definitely would improve damage on dedicated hunter builds.

WabanakiWarrior

Vevvev wrote: »

WabanakiWarrior wrote: »

Elo106 wrote: »

Werewolf is getting nerfed next patch, instead of 10k resistances they get major resolve.

Won't be enough. It's the health based heal that needs to go. Broken mechanic that should never have been introduced in the game. It encourages people to run stupidly high hp builds. I can penetrate through resistances, but not health. There isn't any counterplay to that.
But this conversation has been had hundreds of times on this forum, to address OP's idea: it's not a poison, but we have a glyph that deals increased damage to vampires (prismatic onslaught), I don't see why we couldn't have something similar to specifically target wws. Don't think it will be enough to balance the class though.

Prismatic should hurt werewolves to tbh. Like how the Fighter's Guild abilities can hurt them both so to should the Glyph. Might not be the silver bullet but it definitely would improve damage on dedicated hunter builds.

Thanks! Forgot prismatic onslaught already affects wws! OP's idea for wolfsbane poison is pretty cool tbh, probably lore friendly, easy to toggle on and off, and they're always adding new alchemy ingredients in patches, seems like a fairly simple thing to add.

Vevvev

WabanakiWarrior wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

WabanakiWarrior wrote: »

Elo106 wrote: »

Werewolf is getting nerfed next patch, instead of 10k resistances they get major resolve.

Won't be enough. It's the health based heal that needs to go. Broken mechanic that should never have been introduced in the game. It encourages people to run stupidly high hp builds. I can penetrate through resistances, but not health. There isn't any counterplay to that.
But this conversation has been had hundreds of times on this forum, to address OP's idea: it's not a poison, but we have a glyph that deals increased damage to vampires (prismatic onslaught), I don't see why we couldn't have something similar to specifically target wws. Don't think it will be enough to balance the class though.

Prismatic should hurt werewolves to tbh. Like how the Fighter's Guild abilities can hurt them both so to should the Glyph. Might not be the silver bullet but it definitely would improve damage on dedicated hunter builds.

Thanks! Forgot prismatic onslaught already affects wws! OP's idea for wolfsbane poison is pretty cool tbh, probably lore friendly, easy to toggle on and off, and they're always adding new alchemy ingredients in patches, seems like a fairly simple thing to add.

Wait, it does?!? I thought it didn't since the rules state that the glyph only hurts Undead and Daedra. Werewolves fall under their own category unless something has changed.
The lists of things the Glyph effects are in these two links.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Daedra
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Undead

WabanakiWarrior

Vevvev wrote: »

WabanakiWarrior wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

WabanakiWarrior wrote: »

Elo106 wrote: »

Werewolf is getting nerfed next patch, instead of 10k resistances they get major resolve.

Won't be enough. It's the health based heal that needs to go. Broken mechanic that should never have been introduced in the game. It encourages people to run stupidly high hp builds. I can penetrate through resistances, but not health. There isn't any counterplay to that.
But this conversation has been had hundreds of times on this forum, to address OP's idea: it's not a poison, but we have a glyph that deals increased damage to vampires (prismatic onslaught), I don't see why we couldn't have something similar to specifically target wws. Don't think it will be enough to balance the class though.

Prismatic should hurt werewolves to tbh. Like how the Fighter's Guild abilities can hurt them both so to should the Glyph. Might not be the silver bullet but it definitely would improve damage on dedicated hunter builds.

Thanks! Forgot prismatic onslaught already affects wws! OP's idea for wolfsbane poison is pretty cool tbh, probably lore friendly, easy to toggle on and off, and they're always adding new alchemy ingredients in patches, seems like a fairly simple thing to add.

Wait, it does?!? I thought it didn't since the rules state that the glyph only hurts Undead and Daedra. Werewolves fall under their own category unless something has changed.
The lists of things the Glyph effects are in these two links.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Daedra
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Undead

I'm not sure tbh! I haven't tested it. I assumed it didn't but that was just based on the tooltip not mentioning wws. I'll test it out with a buddy tonight and see what happens.

Qbiken

WabanakiWarrior wrote: »

Elo106 wrote: »

Werewolf is getting nerfed next patch, instead of 10k resistances they get major resolve.

Won't be enough. It's the health based heal that needs to go. Broken mechanic that should never have been introduced in the game. It encourages people to run stupidly high hp builds. I can penetrate through resistances, but not health. There isn't any counterplay to that.
But this conversation has been had hundreds of times on this forum, to address OP's idea: it's not a poison, but we have a glyph that deals increased damage to vampires (prismatic onslaught), I don't see why we couldn't have something similar to specifically target wws. Don't think it will be enough to balance the class though.

Pretty much. As long as the HP based heal remains werewolf will be defensively overtuned. It absolutely needs to be addressed. The change from 10k resistance to major resolve will do absolutely nothing to tackle the overtuned defensive part of werewolfs.

SOLDIER_1stClass

WW aren't OP plain and simple.

There is a reason you don't see 23k medium WW in pvp. They are slaughtered instantly.

WW highlight the same problem proc sets highlight. Damage output in Heavy Armor.

Add a damage debuff to heavy armor per piece that applies to weapon/spell damage and proc damage.

Survivability needs to come at a drastic cost to damage output.

Additionally remove Malacaths ability to buff proc damage.

Heavy armor should be extremely hard to kill and cc kings but hit like a wet noodle

Iriidius

I still dont see werewolf more often in Cyrodiil than any class in non werewolf form and when I see them they are usually white werewolfe tanks with chudan alessia crimson.
With this sets skills arent as important anymore and your burst is to weak to kill most people so why not use werewolf for the passive?

Both alessia and crimson, especially crimson are also very strong on regular builds. They give Werewolf healing over time that WW is lacking.

The Health based burst heal is very strong but it cant be used often because it costs 6k magicka so without HP regen sets werewolf isnt that hard to kill if you pressure him.

If you use crimson and alessia/harbringer together with zaan/malacath and vateshraan destro on a nekro or warden or any other class you can also be really hard to kill and still deal damage.
I think this builds are much more annoying.

White werewolf can stay in werewolf form so long only because the direwolves make werewolf time running out slower since greymoor.
(each werewolf or direwolf in group reduced cost of werewolf transformation by 20%) Werewolf Berserker cant even get from one res to another or to transitus in the fort.

Instead of taking away one of their original passives ZOS should revert some of the changes they made in Greymoor that made WW so Op.

Werewolf always had 10k armour. They also had it pre Greymoor when I almost never saw a Werewolf in Cyrodiil.

JessPushToPlay

Mmmm.... werewolves are OP, especially in a pack.

Also-- why is it I can't kill the direwolves for the Ult Pack Leader? We can kill other combat pets...

Kory

SOLDIER_1stClass wrote: »

WW aren't OP plain and simple.

There is a reason you don't see 23k medium WW in pvp. They are slaughtered instantly.

WW highlight the same problem proc sets highlight. Damage output in Heavy Armor.

Add a damage debuff to heavy armor per piece that applies to weapon/spell damage and proc damage.

Survivability needs to come at a drastic cost to damage output.

Additionally remove Malacaths ability to buff proc damage.

Heavy armor should be extremely hard to kill and cc kings but hit like a wet noodle

Instantly. Medium armor on a werewolf is absolute garbage. Even worse with the berserker morph.

Iriidius

Maybe you should look at werewolf and the sets on it separate. Crimson Twilight, Eternal Vigor, Alessia and in the non proc Test probably Beekeeper are also used by most players without werewolf, but werewolf is almost never used without them.

Nick_Balza

May sound weird, but Nightblade archer (double bow) is a good option against doggie. My setup for hunting Ww is:

Bows are imbued with ravage stamina and magicka poisons (escapist).
Wild Hunt (Mobility and speed)
Vampire 4 (getting invisibility through sprint + damage passive)
Karth (additional damage from each alchemy poison component)
Pestilent Host (Boost penetration)
Toxic Barrage as a main assassination tool (with Karth proc)
Acid Spray + Poison injection to keep pressure.
Manifestation of Terror - to protect myself if ww is getting closer.
Magnum Shot (Knock down to add pressure with acid spray + force ww to break free at the cost of +10% because of poisons)

When doggie is not able to heal (magicka pool is low and ravage magicka makes it even lower), applying toxic barrage.

Usually it works.

Tommy_The_Gun

JessPushToPlay wrote: »

Also-- why is it I can't kill the direwolves for the Ult Pack Leader? We can kill other combat pets...

WW's Dire Wolves are untargetable. Long time ago you could kill them, but they had a re-spwn timer.

Their dmg was nerfed into something almost non-existent and were converted to non-targetable as they were being used as a "living shields" , so Wildlife Protection Commission had to intervene...

(It was similar issue as with pet sorcs - their pets absorb a lot of potential dmg that otherwise would be taken by sorc).

WabanakiWarrior

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

JessPushToPlay wrote: »

Also-- why is it I can't kill the direwolves for the Ult Pack Leader? We can kill other combat pets...

WW's Dire Wolves are untargetable. Long time ago you could kill them, but they had a re-spwn timer.

Their dmg was nerfed into something almost non-existent and were converted to non-targetable as they were being used as a "living shields" , so Wildlife Protection Commission had to intervene...

(It was similar issue as with pet sorcs - their pets absorb a lot of potential dmg that otherwise would be taken by sorc).

Yep, this. It was far worse when you could target the direwolves. Their damage is negligible, they were far more effective as meat shields. Especially when you had multiple pack leaders in a group, it became a small army of pets. Targeting on any range build became close to impossible.

Grimlok_S

WabanakiWarrior wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

JessPushToPlay wrote: »

Also-- why is it I can't kill the direwolves for the Ult Pack Leader? We can kill other combat pets...

WW's Dire Wolves are untargetable. Long time ago you could kill them, but they had a re-spwn timer.

Their dmg was nerfed into something almost non-existent and were converted to non-targetable as they were being used as a "living shields" , so Wildlife Protection Commission had to intervene...

(It was similar issue as with pet sorcs - their pets absorb a lot of potential dmg that otherwise would be taken by sorc).

Yep, this. It was far worse when you could target the direwolves. Their damage is negligible, they were far more effective as meat shields. Especially when you had multiple pack leaders in a group, it became a small army of pets. Targeting on any range build became close to impossible.

And skills like Biting Jabs/Sweeps, where the majority of your damage goes to the "closest enemy to you".. Little doggie.

OneWingedAnge7

I play WW in BG's and use EV and Draugr Hulk with Malacaths. Hits hard but I can still die quickly as I only have 27k health.
WW is not 'OP'
Heavy armor is. Procs are. The stupid mythic ring is.

Also if you want to completely wreck a WW, use snares or drain them of their stamina. Trust me, doesn't matter how big a health pool they have, if they can not move or break free they will die. Every time!

Iriidius

Do you still think werewolfes are Op in Cyrodiil with no proc test?
I have seen about 6 werewolfes in last 3 weeks and 5of them died really fast. Now when conditional sets are removed werewolf with alessia crimson chudan will be no problem anymore. Draugr hulk and shacklebreaker are also good sets for werewolfes but dont make them so annoying.

Tommy_The_Gun

Iriidius wrote: »

Do you still think werewolfes are Op in Cyrodiil with no proc test?
I have seen about 6 werewolfes in last 3 weeks and 5of them died really fast. Now when conditional sets are removed werewolf with alessia crimson chudan will be no problem anymore. Draugr hulk and shacklebreaker are also good sets for werewolfes but dont make them so annoying.

Tbh. no procs means that I actually got back to play WW in PvP again. And it was amazing.

I have all the proc sets in the world - but I dont use them. It is soo cheap. As soon as this proc - set meta started, I stopped playing immediately. Also, since I am a "lone wolf", the other thing that added fuel to the fire was cross healing removal. Not because of huge disadvantage I got, but because as a solo player, I was playing with a different rule set. Also it was almost like a message - that ZOS do not want solo players in Cyro. And it seem it was not only me who thought so, as population dwindled and was only "lock" (but you could still join with no queue) only in weekends and during prime time.

This no-proc was amazing. I used Beekeeper & Leviathan and it worked amazingly for a non-proc wolf. Granted, I could die easily, but at least I could do something. Also, I only died if I made a mistake or server lagged or I was overrun. But I felt that my skill matters. With proc set it was not the case.

Anyway, I am probably taking a break from PvP again. Gonna figure out new build as heavy armour is kinda dead and WW will have reduced resistances & sustain next patch. Not sure what sets I am gonna use yet, but I have other things in this game I would like to do.

Edit: It is hilarious how all of those "Nerf WW" stopped in EXACT moment ZOS disabled proc sets, right ? Almost as if WW itself was not a problem...

Iriidius

Why do you use Leviathan in Cyrodiil? most players avoid crit because enemys have crit resistence. I already disliked that Hundings has 2 minor crit boni, but leviathan has major bonus crit too. IMO for cp cyrodiil draugr hulk was best werewolf damage set until update 29 because on heavy armour werewolf stamina stacking gave almost as much dmg as wpn dmg stacking but it also increases the stamina pool.
Beekeeper is almost an Op health regen set like eternal vigor and alessian armour. They increased health regen from 300 to 900 in one patch.

After werewolf nerf and skill point reset i dont use skill points for werewolf again. Have also used werewolf for Veteran Mahlstrom Arena, will become more difficult too.
Already used werewolf in Skyrim.