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Why Altmer are by FAR the greatest threat to Nirn

Vanya
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High elven individuals in general and Society in whole. Tis in their nature. In every fantasy realm, The Elder scrolls universe is not an exception to the rules portrays an elf as what Human should have been, Physically,Mentally ,Spiritually Ascended being with powerful connection to nature or spiritual realm.

Which means they strive for perfection,domination. There constant thirst for knowledge ad eagerness has made them exceptionally advanced,

Furthermore they have indeed very long live thus gives incredible amount of time to perfect themselves in multiple fields ranging from Alchemy,Warfare,Magic use,Craftsmanship,Mastery in wide variety of arts that other races will never be able to achieve.

Your average High Elf Warrior,Mage,Archer is far far greater In combat and excels in every way imaginable. If certain High elf greatly desires to beat someone they will do it tis a matter of time and High elves have all time in the world.

Altmer are the greatest intellectuals with unmatched Magic affinity and Magic,sorcery was always the true strength that unlocks pretty much limitless power and experimenting with magic can often save planet or cause utter ruination and devastation.

Psijic order alone is capable to stop Deadric intrusion on its own or shut own entire Summerset Isles with barriers that nobody bare few from Dark Elves will be able to comprehend.
History teaches us how incredibly Island can be to invade and on top if it High elves have mightiest Navy. Who controls sea control the world or at least has enormous advantage bare in mind, Tamriel is but one continent only.

High elven Kings,Comanders,high ranking officals,advisors,tacticans,generals etc, will use strategy to overcome odds that once more other cannot or do not know how to execute being logistical nightmare. Altmer share borders with none with Fleet and raiding looting other ships port cities expect endless supply or resources, not to mention they would be left in peace undisturbed in the own land re supplying and recovering.

If High elves want they can block an access from anyone. It is impossible even if Ebonheart pact and Covenant ally all of them combined wont be able to touch the soil.

Thalmor/Some crazed High elven Queen or King or may it be extremely powerful mage or organisation. We know how close Thalmor were, not even Empire was able to defeat them ,even weakened Elves were barely stop by Redguards in inhospitable deserts of Hammerfell.

By sake of balance,writers and Queens Good will twas not an alternate scenario. Their fleet could disable trade and block all traffic in every major region.

Swords,bows are rendered useless against extreme spells. There may be only Master Wizards of great houses of Morrowind that could withstand and held against them for certain period of time, few of them are considered to be equal ,maybe some exceptions.

Fleet+Mage users is the core of Altmer then comes Masterful Army in full plate armor with highest quality weapons and ruthless,yet so precise and

High elven Doctrine is frightening, they care not for other races, Either submit or die. Impossibly cruel as well should they wish they will use any way to extract information or devise a way of torment to break the soul of individual which gives them power of fear yet there is but one race that could resist High elven invasion but only to end in stalemate ,

Dummer or Morrowind All thanks to the Divine three and their Volcanic wasteland terrain filled with ash and dangerous flora,fauna. Their Gods could stop them from conquering Morrowind,but that is only ultimately they would be surrounded,weakened and destabilized. Every race would be either wiped out ,enslaved or forced to sign a treaty and prepare for occupation effectively submitting.

All that Alliance war is stupid and needless , there are other ways, excluding the direction in which developers went its safe to say if Altmer wanted they could have dominated entire Tamriel except Morrowind or Clockwork city, Heart of Argonia might have been one exception too but yet again Elves are very highly resistant to disease, plus what is the use of it. They can scourge the entire jungle.

Entire Tamriel would be united under one banner except Morrowind, You can visualise eternal conflict between Elves and Deadra unless some other race from distant corner attempts to invade as Akaviri did in ages long past.

Its only a matter of time. Deadra are Gods their powers,influence or minions are not included on the list nor in any fairness I want to compare them to Altmer.

Indeed and Altmer females are by far most naturally beautiful. Alas, well I am sorry to Disappoint but High elves shall always be the most inelliigent,powerful,civilized,creative, multi versed, gorgeous and inspirational,stylish, that many shall never even be able to comprehend.

They also have most gorgeous architecture too , what else they do not have. High elves are what every other race is hoping and dreams to be!

By Vanya Gray-Mane,High Queen of Skyrim
6th Sun's Dawn
Windhelm,Eastmarch


Edited by Vanya on February 6, 2021 5:05AM
  • psychotrip
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    I am eternally depressed that the entire narrative purpose of the Altmer was to differentiate them from generic, traditional high elves...

    ...And yet thanks to ESO thats all people see them as. Just snobby, foppish, british people with a superiority complex living in greco-roman disneyland. Just fancy humans with pointy ears. This thread is just a testament to how far they've fallen.
    Edited by psychotrip on February 6, 2021 2:57PM
    No one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".

    We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.
  • psychotrip
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    All that power and yet they can't win a three-way war in Cyrodiil?

    Blood for the Pact!

    Lol remember when Tiber Septim didnt think he could conquer Summerset without a giant time stomping robot god to do it for him?

    Now Talos just seems weak. Why couldn't he easily conquer their pathetic little kingdom? The Imperials got nerfed almost as badly as the Altmer. Thanks, ZOS. At least it makes the dunmer look even more OP by comparison.
    Edited by psychotrip on February 7, 2021 4:39PM
    No one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".

    We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.
  • RedMuse
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    psychotrip wrote: »
    I am eternally depressed that the entire narrative purpose of the Altmer was to differentiate them from generic, traditional high elves...

    ...And yet thanks to ESO thats all people see them as. Just snobby, foppish, british people with a superiority complex living in greco-roman disneyland. Just fancy humans with pointy ears. This thread is just a testament to how far they've fallen.

    My main familiarity with Altmer, their beilves and culture were from Skyrim. Trust me when I say that "snobby, foppish, british people with a superiority complex living in greco-roman disneyland" would be a vast improvement over the opinion I have of them.
  • psychotrip
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    RedMuse wrote: »
    psychotrip wrote: »
    I am eternally depressed that the entire narrative purpose of the Altmer was to differentiate them from generic, traditional high elves...

    ...And yet thanks to ESO thats all people see them as. Just snobby, foppish, british people with a superiority complex living in greco-roman disneyland. Just fancy humans with pointy ears. This thread is just a testament to how far they've fallen.

    My main familiarity with Altmer, their beilves and culture were from Skyrim. Trust me when I say that "snobby, foppish, british people with a superiority complex living in greco-roman disneyland" would be a vast improvement over the opinion I have of them.

    Would you believe me if I said that they were intended to be far more 3 dimensional, unique, and interesting? Equally as strange and fantastical as the dunmer but in their own way?

    That's all just transcrption errors now, lol. Now instead of an ancient, magically advanced island nation with its own alien culture, beliefs, and conflicts, we're left with nothing more than Somerset, England with annoying knife-eared humans, and the most unlikable high elves I've ever seen in a fantasy setting.

    Sometimes, I genuinely think ZOS has been mandated to make the dunmer look as OP and mary-sueish as possible, while ensuring the Altmer are as inept and unlikable as possible. Even their clothing from the base game looked shoddily put together. It's like someone at Zenimax just despises the Altmer.
    Edited by psychotrip on February 6, 2021 4:08PM
    No one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".

    We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.
  • Vevvev
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    Vanya wrote: »

    If High elves want they can block an access from anyone. It is impossible even if Ebonheart pact and Covenant ally all of them combined wont be able to touch the soil.


    This makes me chuckle as the Covenant has a new class of ship so powerful both the Pact and Dominion send in spies to try and steal it's designs to try and find a way to stop it. I wouldn't be surprised if it was this same class of ship that Tiber Septim ended up using after conquering High Rock to use against the Dominion alongside the Numidium.
    PC NA
    Ceyanna Ashton - Breton MagDK
  • Aigym_Hlervu
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    Oh, my goodness.. OP, the very signature of yours stating you (that's you, yes? I don't see any quotes there) to be a member of royal family of Skyrim tells much about you and your post - [snip] But this is not even the thing. And the very question you have asked in the title, "Why Altmer are by FAR the greatest threat to Nirn" - don't you think it's a bit incorrect? [snip] Well, anyway, I'm glad the Altmeri propaganda is still that low-quality thing :).

    [Edited to remove Baiting]
    Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on February 8, 2021 3:15PM
  • Radiance
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    My main is an altmer but this made me shudder! Am I the only non Alt-Supremacist? The SummerSet Chapter is about fighting against those kinds of racist ideals...
  • psychotrip
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    Radiance wrote: »
    My main is an altmer but this made me shudder! Am I the only non Alt-Supremacist? The SummerSet Chapter is about fighting against those kinds of racist ideals...

    This is what happens when racism becomes your people's only defining trait...
    No one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".

    We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.
  • Ratzkifal
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    Where is all that about Altmer warriors being superior coming from? Last time I checked Altmer warriors (the ones that don't use magic) are quite a bit weaker than their human counterparts, especially Nords and Redguards. They might have more experience and their technique is more refined, but that can only get you so far if your opponent is also competent but quite a bit stronger physically.

    Altmer are few in numbers. The reason they can hold their own against the oceans of people that are human armies is because of their magic, not their capabilities as warriors. Every Altmer soldier knows his/her spells.

    The Bretons and Redguards each have impressive fleets, especially when you count the Redguard pirates among them. Since the humans outnumber elves quite dramatically, you can expect their fleets being larger than theirs as well. Now when it comes to equipment, the Altmer might have higher quality vessels, no doubt, and they might even be better at navigation and strategy than Bretons and Redguards, but the Imperials are their equals when it comes to strategy and making the most of what they have. If anything the overconfidence of the High Elves to be superior to everyone in everything will most likely be their downfall when it comes to battle. And then there is the known fact that Nords are the toughest sailors and can be found in port towns all over Tamriel. A Breton fleet under Imperial command with a crew of Nords will be able to defeat anything the Altmer can throw at them, even if they use their fancy magic, because there will always be something the High Elves won't anticipate because they view it as "madness".

    Could it be that you drifted into the wrong forum section here and actually wanted to put that under (fan)fiction/roleplay, High Queen of Skyrim?
    Edited by Ratzkifal on February 7, 2021 12:16AM
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
  • Radiance
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    psychotrip wrote: »
    Radiance wrote: »
    My main is an altmer but this made me shudder! Am I the only non Alt-Supremacist? The SummerSet Chapter is about fighting against those kinds of racist ideals...

    This is what happens when racism becomes your people's only defining trait...

    The only, really? I prefer to reference their magic and pointy ears. It's funny that racism is a defining trait of the Altmer but you turn around and use a that reductive generalization to be racist against them. And let's not act like every other culture doesn't have their faults. The Dunmer are Slavers, the Bosmer are Cannibals, The Orcs are polygamists and think they can solve everything with violence, not unlike the Nords. I could go on, but I think you get my point. I still play all of those races but I choose not to partake in those parts of their cultures.
  • Iccotak
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    The Argonians shall rise to power once again in the 4th Era and the Hist shall provide all the forces they will need

  • Minyassa
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    I dunno. They need my dumb arse to help them every time I turn around, they can't be that big a deal. Most of the high elven officials I run into are hindered by their tendency to be hidebound, think inside a very small box, carry preconceived notions until the end of time, and refuse to listen to differing opinions. They always act shocked when I just go do something for them that they thought couldn't be done without some complicated rigamarole. They are constantly picking at each other, gossiping, sticking their nose where it doesn't belong and basically acting like a completely fragmented community within their own walls. High elven youths seem lucky to make it to adulthood as they are always running off impulsively to rebel against authority and getting into trouble that they need to be rescued from. They are a hot mess.

    Some of them are pretty. Most of them look like the Green Goblin. Beauty is so subjective. I mean I guess if you're into lizard bats it's all good, but the average Altmer looks about eh far from perching on a fencepost gnawing on insects.
  • VaranisArano
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    I remember when Summerset was coming out, @XomRohk did a drawing of the current buildings with the glass roofs that fans were hoping for:
    5MPbuC2.jpg

    I would've loved that.
    Edited by VaranisArano on February 7, 2021 1:20PM
  • Lugaldu
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    psychotrip wrote: »
    I find the Altmer architecture uninspired, generic, and contrary to the themes and narrative purpose of elves in the Elder Scrolls.

    Elves are aesthetically and thematically "alien". That was the entire point ever since the lore coalesced after Daggerfall. The Altmer weren't just racist perfectionists. They were a strange, misunderstood, culture with their own beliefs, values, and motivations. They were not just humans with pointy ears. Like the dunmer, they were an entirely separate species from humans with an entirely different viewpoint that made sense to them.

    You can always look at the “alien” from a different point of view - from the point of view of an Argonian, the Altmer architecture we have now is probably alien and something totally different. As I said, if you include the meaning of Gothic architecture, then it fits well, in my opinion. And when it comes to aesthetics, everyone sees it differently. For example, I would find some extremely ornate architecture rather cheesy.

  • psychotrip
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    Lugaldu wrote: »
    psychotrip wrote: »
    I find the Altmer architecture uninspired, generic, and contrary to the themes and narrative purpose of elves in the Elder Scrolls.

    Elves are aesthetically and thematically "alien". That was the entire point ever since the lore coalesced after Daggerfall. The Altmer weren't just racist perfectionists. They were a strange, misunderstood, culture with their own beliefs, values, and motivations. They were not just humans with pointy ears. Like the dunmer, they were an entirely separate species from humans with an entirely different viewpoint that made sense to them.

    You can always look at the “alien” from a different point of view - from the point of view of an Argonian, the Altmer architecture we have now is probably alien and something totally different. As I said, if you include the meaning of Gothic architecture, then it fits well, in my opinion. And when it comes to aesthetics, everyone sees it differently. For example, I would find some extremely ornate architecture rather cheesy.

    I think we both know I meant alien from a human perspective, not an Argonian's. Elves were designed to be alien from a human's perspective, yet still relatable. That was the brilliance of elves in the elder scrolls. Its what put Morrowind on the map. That balance between alien strangeness while still being very "human" at their core.

    But why have that sort of nuance when we can put the generic fancy elves in gothic architecture. Because that's creative, right?

    I liked when the Altmer felt more like Elder Scrolls elves, personally.

    I remember when Summerset was coming out, @XomRohk did a drawing of the current buildings with the glass roofs that fans were hoping for:
    5MPbuC2.jpg

    I would've loved that.

    Now realize that ZOS couldnt even be bothered to do that, and then think about all the other lore and environments they scrapped for the Altmer. Spoiler alert: they scrapped almost everything they had. Check the old datamines. Half that art I posted above was based on ESO's own descriptions of the Altmer, stuff we were told should be considered canon until Zenimax retconned it all and replaced it with the Summerset DLC.

    I'm clearly in the minority here, I get that. Its why I come here so infrequently these days. But it honestly makes me sad to think about all these gorgeous environments, unique factions (goodbye Scintillants and sound-mages...), and the surprisingly deep lore that was just tossed out in favor of doing something easier.

    I grew up playing high elves in ES games because I loved their lore. Its almost entirely retconned now. So imagine if you were a weirdo like me who LIKED the art I posted above, and was expecting to one day play a whole game set in that world.

    Now it doesnt exist anymore. Thanks Zenimax.

    But seriously guys, do you truly LIKE the Altmer as they are? Are these the best high elves you've ever seen? Are they even close? What is it that you like about them? Maybe I'm just missing something here because my own expectations were dashed so hard.

    What makes the Altmer unique? Likable? Interesting? Beyond just being racist perfectionists, what ARE the Altmer? Because threads like this are NOT doing them justice.

    29bmjhlx9dvd.jpg
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    8z6cfk29gurm.png
    q4m7qkpnmxav.png
    xanqbs4lebip.jpg
    nyw1bp3vyumd.jpg


    Here's some more art btw, all based on what the community THOUGHT the Altmer were like based on what we were told both in and out of game. Of course, ESO makes this stuff look ridiculous now. The Altmer of old just dont fit with ZOS's more "grounded" vision for Tamriel. But even that first image was based on ESO lore up until the dlc dropped.

    Edited by psychotrip on February 7, 2021 2:12PM
    No one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".

    We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.
  • psychotrip
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    Double post
    Edited by psychotrip on February 7, 2021 1:44PM
    No one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".

    We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.
  • Lugaldu
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    psychotrip wrote: »
    But seriously guys, do you truly LIKE the Altmer as they are? Are these the best high elves you've ever seen? Are they even close? What is it that you like about them? Maybe I'm just missing something here because my own expectations were dashed so hard.

    I do like them as they are, not for being racists, but perfectionism is worth striving for. Their ways to get there are perhaps not always the best, but the basic desire behind them. And their overall presentation, also with reference to the ancestry of the Altmer, is consistent.

    But of course I also understand when others are not feeling the same way and when your own imagination does not match the reality or implementation in the game.

  • psychotrip
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    Lugaldu wrote: »
    psychotrip wrote: »
    But seriously guys, do you truly LIKE the Altmer as they are? Are these the best high elves you've ever seen? Are they even close? What is it that you like about them? Maybe I'm just missing something here because my own expectations were dashed so hard.

    I do like them as they are, not for being racists, but perfectionism is worth striving for. Their ways to get there are perhaps not always the best, but the basic desire behind them. And their overall presentation, also with reference to the ancestry of the Altmer, is consistent.

    But of course I also understand when others are not feeling the same way and when your own imagination does not match the reality or implementation in the game.

    Seeing as though most of the art above is going to be in a Skyrim SE mod, I disagree when you imply this stuff cant be realistically implemented (if some volunteers can do it Zenimax sure could've) but I appreciate the point. Again, its also worth noting that this stuff is based on (formerly) canon lore, so its not a matter of my own imagination running wild either.

    This is what Summerset could have been, but Zenimax chose to say it was all "exaggerations".

    As for why you like the Altmer, I dont want to take this away from you, but it seems like a pretty limited appeal. I just wish there was more to them than just racist perfectionists.

    A culture can be more than 2 things. Beyond those 2 things, what is Altmeri culture even about? No, seriously please tell me because I dont even know whats canon anymore. Do we even know why their leaders are called kinlords? Do kinships even still exist?


    But are they really perfectionists at all? Their base game clothes are sloppily stiched together messes, they're surrounded by crumbling ruins and derelict roads, and many other races are far more powerful and accomplished by comparison. So what good is their perfectionism if it doesnt amount to anything?

    Some more images for the road: 6uei2hatezd6.png
    dkbcfel64t31.jpg
    dephoqqm0gdb.jpg
    x95ni5dikc8i.jpg
    0d3dfr4lla0p.jpg
    Edited by psychotrip on February 7, 2021 2:46PM
    No one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".

    We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.
  • RedMuse
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    psychotrip wrote: »
    RedMuse wrote: »
    psychotrip wrote: »
    I am eternally depressed that the entire narrative purpose of the Altmer was to differentiate them from generic, traditional high elves...

    ...And yet thanks to ESO thats all people see them as. Just snobby, foppish, british people with a superiority complex living in greco-roman disneyland. Just fancy humans with pointy ears. This thread is just a testament to how far they've fallen.

    My main familiarity with Altmer, their beilves and culture were from Skyrim. Trust me when I say that "snobby, foppish, british people with a superiority complex living in greco-roman disneyland" would be a vast improvement over the opinion I have of them.

    Would you believe me if I said that they were intended to be far more 3 dimensional, unique, and interesting? Equally as strange and fantastical as the dunmer but in their own way?

    That's all just transcrption errors now, lol. Now instead of an ancient, magically advanced island nation with its own alien culture, beliefs, and conflicts, we're left with nothing more than Somerset, England with annoying knife-eared humans, and the most unlikable high elves I've ever seen in a fantasy setting.

    Sometimes, I genuinely think ZOS has been mandated to make the dunmer look as OP and mary-sueish as possible, while ensuring the Altmer are as inept and unlikable as possible. Even their clothing from the base game looked shoddily put together. It's like someone at Zenimax just despises the Altmer.

    No, I wouldn't. Because if you find the ESO Altmer flat, then I'm not sure why you don't have a bigger problem with the Skyrim Altmer. Because they're flat AND modeled after probably the worst and mot reviled genocidal regime in recent history. Not saying the ESO Altmer are grand but they're miles ahead of Skyrim Altmers.
  • Lugaldu
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    psychotrip wrote: »
    As for why you like the Altmer, I dont want to take this away from you, but it seems like a pretty limited appeal. I just wish there was more to them than just racist perfectionists.

    A culture can be more than 2 things. Beyond those 2 things, what is Altmeri culture even about? No, seriously please tell me because I dont even know whats canon anymore. Do we even know why their leaders are called kinlords? Do kinships even still exist?


    But are they really perfectionists at all? Their base game clothes are sloppily stiched together messes, they're surrounded by crumbling ruins and derelict roads, and many other races are far more powerful and accomplished by comparison. So what good is their perfectionism if it doesnt amount to anything?


    No offense, but I didn't´said that the shown stuff can't be realistically implemented (even when that mershark/ wereshark is not my thing).
    The base game presentation of the Altmer culture is indeed not really amazing, that's true, but there also all other cultures were represented less elaborated in comparison to later. That picture was somehow corrected with Summerset. Prefectionism does not stand alone, it is based e.g. on historical and genealogical backgrounds. When you talk about perfectionism, it is only a single aspect, but it is linked to everything else.


  • VaranisArano
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    I like the Altmer because their cultural emphasis on perfection means they then have to grapple with living in a decidedly imperfect world, and what happens when they themselves can't live up to that perfect ideal leads them down some incredibly warped paths as individuals and as a society.

    We can reject that element of what's going on with the Altmer...or lean into it. That shoddy-looking mass produced armor we see in Auridon? That's being constructed for the Three Banners War because taking the time to lovingly craft the detailed armor we see on the home guard Divine Prosecution would take too long to meet the demands of war. What do the Altmer think of it? Some, like Ayrenn, are willing to sacrifice perfection and heritage alike in order to create that bright new world she hopes for. Other Altmer are horrified and see the changes around them as forsaking their heritage and the perfectionism that is their worth in the world as the descendents of the Aedra. What do you do, as an Altmer? Stay out of the war? Fight for your queen? Back the Veiled Heritance? Seek alaxon and curse the nebarra under your breath for bringing chaos to the Isles?

    The way I see it, the altmer seek perfection, but rarely find it. They, like every race in Tamriel, find themselves living in the cities built in past centuries, facing crisises that they feel unprepared to deal with, and forced to live in an imperfect world that tests and tries their ideals.


    And while the many pictures on this thread present a different vision for the Altmer, I like the Gothic architecture. Its clean, beautiful even in its age, and quite far advanced from what we've seen out of Tamriel's human cultures. I would have loved to see ZOS push the design of Summerset a little farther, but I'm satisfied with what we got giving the limitations of a single Chapter zone. (Mods are a labor of love. Their designs are cool, but much like Skywind, I'll take an actual playable game over gorgeous design work that's never realized.)

    I know there's always a thread of "Altmer exceptionalism" present in fan discussions about them. How could it be any different when the Altmer themselves believe so firmly in their own exceptionality? However, I do think its important to keep in mind that this is a game, that Altmer are one choice of nine playable races, and that for all the chest-beating, congratulatory lauding of Altmer prowess that the OP does, the Altmer are never that much better than a player character of a different race. That's what ZOS - and arguably Bethesda too - gives us. Altmer who, in practice and gameplay, aren't that much more powerful or effective in a crisis than any other race or nation.
  • psychotrip
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    RedMuse wrote: »
    psychotrip wrote: »
    RedMuse wrote: »
    psychotrip wrote: »
    I am eternally depressed that the entire narrative purpose of the Altmer was to differentiate them from generic, traditional high elves...

    ...And yet thanks to ESO thats all people see them as. Just snobby, foppish, british people with a superiority complex living in greco-roman disneyland. Just fancy humans with pointy ears. This thread is just a testament to how far they've fallen.

    My main familiarity with Altmer, their beilves and culture were from Skyrim. Trust me when I say that "snobby, foppish, british people with a superiority complex living in greco-roman disneyland" would be a vast improvement over the opinion I have of them.

    Would you believe me if I said that they were intended to be far more 3 dimensional, unique, and interesting? Equally as strange and fantastical as the dunmer but in their own way?

    That's all just transcrption errors now, lol. Now instead of an ancient, magically advanced island nation with its own alien culture, beliefs, and conflicts, we're left with nothing more than Somerset, England with annoying knife-eared humans, and the most unlikable high elves I've ever seen in a fantasy setting.

    Sometimes, I genuinely think ZOS has been mandated to make the dunmer look as OP and mary-sueish as possible, while ensuring the Altmer are as inept and unlikable as possible. Even their clothing from the base game looked shoddily put together. It's like someone at Zenimax just despises the Altmer.

    No, I wouldn't. Because if you find the ESO Altmer flat, then I'm not sure why you don't have a bigger problem with the Skyrim Altmer. Because they're flat AND modeled after probably the worst and mot reviled genocidal regime in recent history. Not saying the ESO Altmer are grand but they're miles ahead of Skyrim Altmers.

    Where did I ever once praise Skyrim's Altmer? ESO is an improvement BY FAR over that garbage.

    But...gang...we know that ES isnt just Skyrim and ESO, right?

    I'm talking about the stuff that never made it into the games because they never made a singleplayer game focused on the Altmer. All the awesome bits of lore that ESO THEMSELVES MADE UP before scrapping it all.

    You guys seem to think I'm hating on ESO. I want ESO's ORIGINAL vision for the Altmer!
    No one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".

    We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.
  • psychotrip
    psychotrip
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    I like the Altmer because their cultural emphasis on perfection means they then have to grapple with living in a decidedly imperfect world, and what happens when they themselves can't live up to that perfect ideal leads them down some incredibly warped paths as individuals and as a society.

    We can reject that element of what's going on with the Altmer...or lean into it. That shoddy-looking mass produced armor we see in Auridon? That's being constructed for the Three Banners War because taking the time to lovingly craft the detailed armor we see on the home guard Divine Prosecution would take too long to meet the demands of war. What do the Altmer think of it? Some, like Ayrenn, are willing to sacrifice perfection and heritage alike in order to create that bright new world she hopes for. Other Altmer are horrified and see the changes around them as forsaking their heritage and the perfectionism that is their worth in the world as the descendents of the Aedra. What do you do, as an Altmer? Stay out of the war? Fight for your queen? Back the Veiled Heritance? Seek alaxon and curse the nebarra under your breath for bringing chaos to the Isles?

    The way I see it, the altmer seek perfection, but rarely find it. They, like every race in Tamriel, find themselves living in the cities built in past centuries, facing crisises that they feel unprepared to deal with, and forced to live in an imperfect world that tests and tries their ideals.


    And while the many pictures on this thread present a different vision for the Altmer, I like the Gothic architecture. Its clean, beautiful even in its age, and quite far advanced from what we've seen out of Tamriel's human cultures. I would have loved to see ZOS push the design of Summerset a little farther, but I'm satisfied with what we got giving the limitations of a single Chapter zone. (Mods are a labor of love. Their designs are cool, but much like Skywind, I'll take an actual playable game over gorgeous design work that's never realized.)

    I know there's always a thread of "Altmer exceptionalism" present in fan discussions about them. How could it be any different when the Altmer themselves believe so firmly in their own exceptionality? However, I do think its important to keep in mind that this is a game, that Altmer are one choice of nine playable races, and that for all the chest-beating, congratulatory lauding of Altmer prowess that the OP does, the Altmer are never that much better than a player character of a different race. That's what ZOS - and arguably Bethesda too - gives us. Altmer who, in practice and gameplay, aren't that much more powerful or effective in a crisis than any other race or nation.

    This has nothing to do with exceptionalism. Thats always been a red herring used by Zenimax themselves.

    No one is asking the high elves to be OP. How can we even be having this conversation with how mary-sueish the Dunmer have become? Its totally disingenuous to act like thats the issue here.

    This is about how they took a genuinely unique group of people and turned them into generic fancy elves living in gothic disneyland.

    This is about the INCONSISTENCY of a land that Tiber Septim needed a giant robot god to defeat being about as impressive as a renaissance faire.

    Its about how normal and human the Altmer seem when standing next to the dunmer or bosmer, who feel like an entirely separate species now. Its about how the entire point of the Altmer was that they were the elfiest elves of all and the LEAST recognizably human by far.

    Its about how Zenimax cherry picks certain bits of lore, like how imperial architecture is BASED on Altmeri PRINCIPLES (like modern math and geometry)and used that as an excuse for why their cities just look like bigger versions of human cities.

    Its about how Zenimax said that the Elder Scrolls is "very mundane at its heart" and that the Altmer cant be as fantastical as they described, when the reality is that Zenimax and Bethesda have slowly been "normalizing" and toning down ALL the races of Tamriel so now faithful Altmer would SEEM OP by comparison.

    They threw the entire universe under the bus just to justify why they scrapped everything they worked on for the Altmer halfway through development.

    This is about the Altmer's entire culture being wittled down into a caricature of itself. Saying the Altmer care about perfection is a joke at this point.

    Yes, there is something compelling about a race trying fruitlessly to achieve perfection, but if thats all there is to it then so what? How do they explore these ideas in new, interesting ways? What separates their pursuit of perfection from ANY OTHER HIGH ELVES IN FANTASY? Nothing.

    They're the most ancient and "mysterious" civilization in Tamriel, and all they have is some half ruined, second-rate disneyland to show for it.

    So, to be precise: its not about exceptionalism. Its about ZOS completely changing them from the ground up and leaving only their most shallow, generic traits intact, leaving us with a race that feels unjustly arrogant and vastly underdeveloped.
    Its clean, beautiful even in its age, and quite far advanced from what we've seen out of Tamriel's human cultures.

    Stuff like this confuses me so much and make me wonder if we're looking at different things. It's clean? There's crumbling ruins everywhere. Crumbling ruins EVERYWHERE from the race that is apparently all about preserving old things.

    I dont get it. Apparently I just dont get the Altmer. To me they are by far the most poorly written and designed race in Elder Scrolls canon and I cant think of any playable race thats less interesting at this point. Maybe Imperials? Man they used to be cool, too...
    Edited by psychotrip on February 7, 2021 3:54PM
    No one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".

    We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.
  • Lugaldu
    Lugaldu
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    psychotrip wrote: »
    This is about how they took a genuinely unique group of people and turned them into generic fancy elves living in gothic disneyland.

    Its about how normal and human the Altmer seem when standing next to the dunmer or bosmer, who feel like an entirely separate species now. Its about how the entire point of the Altmer was that they were the elfiest elves of all and the LEAST recognizably human by far.

    This is about the Altmer's entire culture being wittled down into a caricature of itself. Saying the Altmer care about perfection is a joke at this point. They're the most ancient and "mysterious" civilization in Tamriel, and all they have is some half ruined, secons-rate disneyland to show for it.

    I don't quite understand your point. The Altmer are not “special” enough for you, not enough “elvish” and the representation of e.g. Alinor is Disney-style, but on the other hand all your graphical examples suggest that you like it better if the Altmer, their culture, would visually follow an absolute cliché image of fantasy elves?

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