Stop nerfing crit to ground

Doczy

really? you love malacath this much? you already nerfed crit chance with malacath and nerfing it again ? from sets from passives.

as a khajit nightblade what should i do with %20-30 crit chance? if i wear malacath can i change my crit damage passives?


stop this malacath madness . most of people using that item already. and you are forcing now malacath or quit.

JinMori

Who cares at this point, just treat this game like what it is, it's a clown trying to make good appearances.

Crit was the go to pve stat, and it still will be, because how crit works is multiplicative after all buffs.

So at the end of the day, this inherently makes crit better, they should have thought of how to bring the other stats closer. But no. So they won't solve the "problem" which is isn't, it's simply how crit works, they will only make crit worse.

Crit is a great stat in pretty much every game, because this is how it works, so you have to do something to make other stats better. Not nerf crit to the ground.

Wow got this pretty good. the way they do it is that a single point into mastery or haste or crit does not give the same % modifier, so you can fine tune the amount of damage each stat gives you.

FrancisCrawford

JinMori wrote: »

Who cares at this point, just treat this game like what it is, it's a clown trying to make good appearances.

Crit was the go to pve stat, and it still will be, because how crit works is multiplicative after all buffs.

So at the end of the day, this inherently makes crit better, they should have thought of how to bring the other stats closer. But no. So they won't solve the "problem" which is it's, it's simply how crit works, they will only make crit worse.

To a first approximation, you're surely right. Reducing crit chance makes whatever crit chance remains a little more valuable, and the same goes for crit damage.

But reducing crit chance does make crit damage less valuable. That's just as clear, and is true to a greater extent than the previous point is.

Further, while this is less certain pending detailed analysis, the value of stacking them both in tandem is likely to be lowered as well (due to the lower starting point).

Doczy

whats the point of crit damage if we cant crit ?

Bone_Demon

Doczy wrote: »

whats the point of crit damage if we cant crit ?

What's the point of khajiit i wonder since they introduced malacath's....

Doczy

Bone_Demon wrote: »

Doczy wrote: »

whats the point of crit damage if we cant crit ?

What's the point of khajiit i wonder since they introduced malacath's....

as a Khajit i confrim this

StarOfElyon

I don't blame them for seeing that crit was too easy to get. If almost every hit is a crit, that's pretty broken.

Vaoh

Only concern is Necro DPS might get even further ahead of other classes. Everyone's critical chance will drop but Necros will still have high crit chance in execute for free.

Doczy

StarOfElyon wrote: »

I don't blame them for seeing that crit was too easy to get. If almost every hit is a crit, that's pretty broken.

so you are okay with every dd in pvp build with malacath?

Sanguinor2

It always hurts to read them talking about how crit balances itself in PvP but doesnt in PvE etc. In PvP crit is so worthless that everyone slots a mythic that sets your crit chance to 0%.

the1andonlyskwex

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

It always hurts to read them talking about how crit balances itself in PvP but doesnt in PvE etc. In PvP crit is so worthless that everyone slots a mythic that sets your crit chance to 0%.

It's also so "worthless" that most people run around in gear that gives them an extra 1000+ crit resistance.

NoSoup

Too be fair in the early days of ESO you couldn't get Crit chance anywhere near as high as what we're seeing in builds these days. I actually agree with the the direction they're going whereby if you want a high crit build you have to build towards it.

Also, it looks like the new CP system will be providing avenues to increase crit damage much higher than whats possible now, so logically crit chance needs to be toned down a bit so that its not "the default'

Athan1

StarOfElyon wrote: »

I don't blame them for seeing that crit was too easy to get. If almost every hit is a crit, that's pretty broken.

Crit was too high and too strong. This was a wise decision.

Sanguinor2

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

It's also so "worthless" that most people run around in gear that gives them an extra 1000+ crit resistance.

You reffering to impen? Because other traits are actually better nowadays.

StarOfElyon

Doczy wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

I don't blame them for seeing that crit was too easy to get. If almost every hit is a crit, that's pretty broken.

so you are okay with every dd in pvp build with malacath?

Hell no. Both Malacath and critting every other hit is a problem. Why is rejection of one supposed to be condoning another?

YandereGirlfriend

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Doczy wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

I don't blame them for seeing that crit was too easy to get. If almost every hit is a crit, that's pretty broken.

so you are okay with every dd in pvp build with malacath?

Hell no. Both Malacath and critting every other hit is a problem. Why is rejection of one supposed to be condoning another?

This is my feeling as well. Having PvE builds sitting at 65% Critical Chance with no particular effort was not a healthy place to be from a design perspective.

Reducing overall Critical Chance is only part of the solution though - the other parts involve giving us more tools to make the other means of increasing damage more attractive as potential alternatives.

You could start by increasing the magnitude of Spell/Weapon Damage/Max Resources set bonuses and then providing more build tools (that are mutually exclusive with stacking Critical Chance) to allow them to scale better in end-game content.

zvavi

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Doczy wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

I don't blame them for seeing that crit was too easy to get. If almost every hit is a crit, that's pretty broken.

so you are okay with every dd in pvp build with malacath?

Hell no. Both Malacath and critting every other hit is a problem. Why is rejection of one supposed to be condoning another?

This is my feeling as well. Having PvE builds sitting at 65% Critical Chance with no particular effort was not a healthy place to be from a design perspective.

Reducing overall Critical Chance is only part of the solution though - the other parts involve giving us more tools to make the other means of increasing damage more attractive as potential alternatives.

You could start by increasing the magnitude of Spell/Weapon Damage/Max Resources set bonuses and then providing more build tools (that are mutually exclusive with stacking Critical Chance) to allow them to scale better in end-game content.

Wearing a crit set, and having crit buffs, ye, nooooooo effort. Btw crit is stronger than ever, because you now have much more weapon/spell damage, so you know, diminishing returns. Through my tests thief might be back.

karekiz

When you nerf crit

Yo stack moar crit

Ryuvain

As a khajiit only player, cringing every time I hear malacath is getting old.

YandereGirlfriend

zvavi wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Doczy wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

I don't blame them for seeing that crit was too easy to get. If almost every hit is a crit, that's pretty broken.

so you are okay with every dd in pvp build with malacath?

Hell no. Both Malacath and critting every other hit is a problem. Why is rejection of one supposed to be condoning another?

This is my feeling as well. Having PvE builds sitting at 65% Critical Chance with no particular effort was not a healthy place to be from a design perspective.

Reducing overall Critical Chance is only part of the solution though - the other parts involve giving us more tools to make the other means of increasing damage more attractive as potential alternatives.

You could start by increasing the magnitude of Spell/Weapon Damage/Max Resources set bonuses and then providing more build tools (that are mutually exclusive with stacking Critical Chance) to allow them to scale better in end-game content.

Wearing a crit set, and having crit buffs, ye, nooooooo effort. Btw crit is stronger than ever, because you now have much more weapon/spell damage, so you know, diminishing returns. Through my tests thief might be back.

Slapping on Precise Mother's Sorrow from the guild store and using the same exact Champion Point configuration that's used for everything else is not exactly bending over backwards to build into Crit. And stacking Crit buffs in a raid is hardly genius-tier theorycrafting.

Of course, it's not the players' fault - it's on ZOS for giving players a stunted toolkit where only one strategy is viable to deal damage efficiently.

If ZOS gave mobs baseline Critical Resistance and changed its place in the damage calculation to stack additively along with Berserk, etc. it would flip the script completely on Critical Damage and give other types of builds a chance at viability.

I certainly like that the Thief Mundus might be back (and I'm sure it will be fully back once Major Brittle is finally sourced) but imagine an even better world where even the Apprentice or Mage stones (and the builds that would support them) actually have a shot at finding a home a raid.

Sanguinor2

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Wearing a crit set, and having crit buffs, ye, nooooooo effort. Btw crit is stronger than ever, because you now have much more weapon/spell damage, so you know, diminishing returns. Through my tests thief might be back.

Slapping on Precise Mother's Sorrow from the guild store and using the same exact Champion Point configuration that's used for everything else is not exactly bending over backwards to build into Crit. And stacking Crit buffs in a raid is hardly genius-tier theorycrafting.

While it is not genius theorycrafting using ones set bonuses and weapon traits towards crit chance/crit damage is about the biggest investment one can do as it is right now since you do not get raw stats from cp (yet) armor weight is a given because of most sets already being the appropiate armor weight (advancing yokeda/medusa are notable exceptions to this). A stam build invests: 5 piece set advancing yokeda, precise trait, dagger, frontbar weapon choice, instead of a 2h which is easier to sustain especially in execute, 7 medium instead of 1/5/1 for undaunted passives, shadow mundus, depending on the encounter a second set with multiple crit bonuses (relequen for example), running a nightblade for the 6% weapon crit and nightblades themselves can invest skill slots for increased crit chance (my group ran a medium armor nightblade tank with thief mundus and precise trait so we could stack wardens and necros which is certainly an investment compared to a heavy armor dk or warden tank).

If for example a magdk runs new moon+siroria+grothdar with a nirn staff and apprentice mundus you get 40k mag, 6.8k spell dmg and 44% spell crit. If the same magdk runs sorrow+siroria+zaan with a precise staff and shadow mundus you trade 1.4k spell damage for 24% crit chance and 17% increased crit damage. So investing a 5 piece, a weapon trait, a mundus stone and a 1 piece set towards crit gives better results. With those slots you have invested half your equipment slots however so I wouldnt call that no investment.

So the problem isnt that people get too much out of crit for investing nothing, because that is not true at all, the only way people would stop investing into crit first is if crit becomes worse than other stats. The problem is that crit gives too much for investing into it/ other stats give too little for investing into them. Pen for example doesnt need any investment at all on mag builds aside from a tank running alkosh and infused crusher, now THAT is low investment if i´ve ever seen one, mag dds dont need to do anything at all for pen except for wearing the armor weight they are wearing anyway for sustain and crit chance.

We can observe the other extreme in PvP right now where no one is investing anything at all into crit and is instead running a mythic that sets your crit chance to 0 because crit resist, lower crit chance, needing to build more for survival/sustain and proc sets scaling with malacath make it so that anything one would invest into crit is better invested in literally any other stat, health recovery which is a meme in PvE is so much more powerful than crit in PvP.

Daemonai

If anything, critical chance should have been buffed, considering we are in a Malacath meta and this change will only exacerbate the issue.

Khaijit finally gets the long overdue buffs to its critical passive, only to eat a 5%+ nerf to critical chance in NoCP environments. You just can't win.

Critical builds already have to compromise so many stats to make them work. With a quite high investment in critical on my Magicka Healer (Monster Set, Full Light Armor/+1666 Critical Set, Full Divine Thief Mundus, Prophecy), I'm barely breaking above 54% critical chance in NoCP environments.

Under the new system, I'll be at ~46% critical chance. This means I would have to give up Powered/Infused/Sharpened on my weapons for Precise in order to break about even, so even more stats sacrificed.

Following the road of most resistance is starting to become too draining.

(P.S. Critical is used for more than damage dealing, ZOS. To date, all critical Monster Sets are damage focused. A critical healing/support Monster Set is overdue.)

Edit: Math'd wrong

Ryuvain

Daemonai wrote: »

If anything, critical chance should have been buffed, considering we are in a Malacath meta and this change will only exacerbate the issue.

Khaijit finally gets the long overdue buffs to its critical passive, only to eat a %5+ nerf to critical chance in NoCP environments. You just can't win.

Critical builds already have to compromise so many stats to make them work. With a quite high investment in critical on my Magicka Healer (Monster Set, Full Light Armor/+1666 Critical Set, Full Divine Thief Mundus, Prophecy), I'm barely breaking above 54% critical chance in NoCP environments.

Under the new system, I'll be at ~48% critical chance. This means I would have to give up Powered/Infused/Sharpened on my weapons for Precise in order to break about even, so even more stats sacrificed.

Following the road of most resistance is starting to become too draining.

(P.S. Critical is used for more than damage dealing, ZOS. To date, all critical Monster Sets are damage focused. A critical healing/support Monster Set is overdue.)

Tbh, just equip malacath. Then you can ignore needing crit as it automatically increases damage. With no changes it will stay this way.

StarOfElyon

Clearly, ZOS nerfed crit to prevent it from becoming OP with changes to the CP system. I don't know why it's such a problem. Just spec into crit and you'll be good. But for PVP, it dominated for years. We had to wear ALL inpen for the longest time. Now, we just need to balance Malacath.

IrishOphidia

I mean it wasn’t “nerfed into the ground” it was reined in. Crit has always been vastly overpowered. When every hit you make is a crit, then what’s the point of having “crit chance”? Damage has run rampant in the last couple years to the point where content is so mediocre because you can just skip mechanics. Groups don’t even need to learn certain mechanics because they never even see them. This is much healthier for the game.

Doczy

Ryuvain wrote: »

Daemonai wrote: »

If anything, critical chance should have been buffed, considering we are in a Malacath meta and this change will only exacerbate the issue.

Khaijit finally gets the long overdue buffs to its critical passive, only to eat a %5+ nerf to critical chance in NoCP environments. You just can't win.

Critical builds already have to compromise so many stats to make them work. With a quite high investment in critical on my Magicka Healer (Monster Set, Full Light Armor/+1666 Critical Set, Full Divine Thief Mundus, Prophecy), I'm barely breaking above 54% critical chance in NoCP environments.

Under the new system, I'll be at ~48% critical chance. This means I would have to give up Powered/Infused/Sharpened on my weapons for Precise in order to break about even, so even more stats sacrificed.

Following the road of most resistance is starting to become too draining.

(P.S. Critical is used for more than damage dealing, ZOS. To date, all critical Monster Sets are damage focused. A critical healing/support Monster Set is overdue.)

Tbh, just equip malacath. Then you can ignore needing crit as it automatically increases damage. With no changes it will stay this way.

what if i am only khajit or my only one char is khajit nb ?

Shantu

I just wish they'd make up their damn minds. It's not like some little fairy pixie flew over and sprinkled crit dust all over the game. This yo-yo development is BS. It's getting so if they introduce anything good today, that's a clear sign it will be nerfed tomorrow.

Vaoh

IrishOphidia wrote: »

I mean it wasn’t “nerfed into the ground” it was reined in. Crit has always been vastly overpowered. When every hit you make is a crit, then what’s the point of having “crit chance”? Damage has run rampant in the last couple years to the point where content is so mediocre because you can just skip mechanics. Groups don’t even need to learn certain mechanics because they never even see them. This is much healthier for the game.

Not sure it's healthy to nerf everyone's critical chance this way. Next patch is looking a lot like a "Necro DPS only" patch with their free 30-40% extra critical chance in execute

iksde

Ryuvain wrote: »

Daemonai wrote: »

If anything, critical chance should have been buffed, considering we are in a Malacath meta and this change will only exacerbate the issue.

Khaijit finally gets the long overdue buffs to its critical passive, only to eat a %5+ nerf to critical chance in NoCP environments. You just can't win.

Critical builds already have to compromise so many stats to make them work. With a quite high investment in critical on my Magicka Healer (Monster Set, Full Light Armor/+1666 Critical Set, Full Divine Thief Mundus, Prophecy), I'm barely breaking above 54% critical chance in NoCP environments.

Under the new system, I'll be at ~48% critical chance. This means I would have to give up Powered/Infused/Sharpened on my weapons for Precise in order to break about even, so even more stats sacrificed.

Following the road of most resistance is starting to become too draining.

(P.S. Critical is used for more than damage dealing, ZOS. To date, all critical Monster Sets are damage focused. A critical healing/support Monster Set is overdue.)

Tbh, just equip malacath. Then you can ignore needing crit as it automatically increases damage. With no changes it will stay this way.

so while equipping malacath give a new sense into crit race - khajiit - crit classes - templar and nb and necro at finishers

while if ithout malacath leaving these classes with just nerf into their most significant power for damage while other classes will be more efficient to leave crit and stack raw damage, resources for higher damage - remember how mag sorcs ni compare to literally every other class was able to stack for their 55k-60k max magice ignoring crit stacking and be same efficient with dps?
sorc is not crit focused class like dk and warden so after nerfs to crits and stablise of new patch they would be able to build for raw stats ignoring stacking crit and be efective with dps while other crit focused classes will be just nerfed and their non-crit hits will be nothing in copare to non-crit classes while having so much lowered chance for crits

Ryuvain

Doczy wrote: »

Ryuvain wrote: »

Daemonai wrote: »

If anything, critical chance should have been buffed, considering we are in a Malacath meta and this change will only exacerbate the issue.

Khaijit finally gets the long overdue buffs to its critical passive, only to eat a %5+ nerf to critical chance in NoCP environments. You just can't win.

Critical builds already have to compromise so many stats to make them work. With a quite high investment in critical on my Magicka Healer (Monster Set, Full Light Armor/+1666 Critical Set, Full Divine Thief Mundus, Prophecy), I'm barely breaking above 54% critical chance in NoCP environments.

Under the new system, I'll be at ~48% critical chance. This means I would have to give up Powered/Infused/Sharpened on my weapons for Precise in order to break about even, so even more stats sacrificed.

Following the road of most resistance is starting to become too draining.

(P.S. Critical is used for more than damage dealing, ZOS. To date, all critical Monster Sets are damage focused. A critical healing/support Monster Set is overdue.)

Tbh, just equip malacath. Then you can ignore needing crit as it automatically increases damage. With no changes it will stay this way.

what if i am only khajit or my only one char is khajit nb ?

I'm only khajiit too. It sucks to be nerfed for existing. But it's easier to equip one ring than do an entire build on crit.

iksde wrote: »

Ryuvain wrote: »

Daemonai wrote: »

If anything, critical chance should have been buffed, considering we are in a Malacath meta and this change will only exacerbate the issue.

Khaijit finally gets the long overdue buffs to its critical passive, only to eat a %5+ nerf to critical chance in NoCP environments. You just can't win.

Critical builds already have to compromise so many stats to make them work. With a quite high investment in critical on my Magicka Healer (Monster Set, Full Light Armor/+1666 Critical Set, Full Divine Thief Mundus, Prophecy), I'm barely breaking above 54% critical chance in NoCP environments.

Under the new system, I'll be at ~48% critical chance. This means I would have to give up Powered/Infused/Sharpened on my weapons for Precise in order to break about even, so even more stats sacrificed.

Following the road of most resistance is starting to become too draining.

(P.S. Critical is used for more than damage dealing, ZOS. To date, all critical Monster Sets are damage focused. A critical healing/support Monster Set is overdue.)

Tbh, just equip malacath. Then you can ignore needing crit as it automatically increases damage. With no changes it will stay this way.

so while equipping malacath give a new sense into crit race - khajiit - crit classes - templar and nb and necro at finishers

while if ithout malacath leaving these classes with just nerf into their most significant power for damage while other classes will be more efficient to leave crit and stack raw damage, resources for higher damage - remember how mag sorcs ni compare to literally every other class was able to stack for their 55k-60k max magice ignoring crit stacking and be same efficient with dps?
sorc is not crit focused class like dk and warden so after nerfs to crits and stablise of new patch they would be able to build for raw stats ignoring stacking crit and be efective with dps while other crit focused classes will be just nerfed and their non-crit hits will be nothing in copare to non-crit classes while having so much lowered chance for crits

Oh I know that feel. I only play khajiit and my main is a sorc. My main heal is through surge with crits. Every crit nerf hits us twice.

zvavi

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

flip the script completely on Critical Damage and give other types of builds a chance at viability.

I certainly like that the Thief Mundus might be back (and I'm sure it will be fully back once Major Brittle is finally sourced) but imagine an even better world where even the Apprentice or Mage stones (and the builds that would support them) actually have a shot at finding a home a raid.

Well, too bad, since the stats are Uber buffed because of diminishing returns apprentice and mage are nerfed more than shadow that lost 7% crit. While crit stats were nerfed directly, max mag got nerfed directly and non directly (both lost 20% and diminishing returns from inflated spell dmg) and spell power got hit hard from diminishing returns too! So crit is still the strongest stat in PvE. lol.