Less Skill Spam?

tenryuta

going from manage your pools to horrible cd skills is just bad(theres no, NO multi taunt in the game)

looks more like a bad copy pasta of tera or bns

tenryuta

Auztinito wrote: »

Scardan wrote: »

With such combat, every class will be offensive class, a damage dealer, even "tanks", even "healers". Look at Vindictus, for example. ESO tries to imitate old roles architype, therefore I have no idea what should support role do if not crushing skulls like everybody else but just healing on cooldown in between, which does not work with role based gameplay, where only dds are allowed to crush skulls.

I never made it far but I loved Vindictus’s controls and combat. They had some really natural controls for combat for KB/M (P.S: I hate KB/M controls and will just outright play with a controller). Something about their controls just clicked together naturally. As for combat, I liked the combos that could be used.

I think Tanks and Healers need something to make them feel useful except just Aggro Skills and Healing Spells. Those specific roles lack the same amount of build diversity, you’d see from DD. I think giving DD another goal instead of crush skills would be a much better way because it allows DD to be more supportive of the group.

If Tanks were in charge of cc’ing bosses and healers were designed to keep team health and boosting debuffs applied from allies. They would be more offensive but still fit the role they’re in. On top of this, DD could be ones that focus down adds and bosses while offering support to tanks and healers.

mabi heroes has less diversity than eso, im not a meta-ist, but i use whatever i like and there so many gear sets that can make whatever you choose work, whether or not your dps meter is over 9000

Auztinito

tenryuta wrote: »

mabi heroes has less diversity than eso, im not a meta-ist, but i use whatever i like and there so many gear sets that can make whatever you choose work, whether or not your dps meter is over 9000

Over 9k. Really? I was under the impression, you’d need more than that to do most group content. Hence players spam abilities and hotbar flip.

As for less diversity, I’d assume that’s because Vindictus is based on character class types like BDO. There is less build diversity in comparison but I assume all characters / classes feel unique when compared, right?

As for resource management vs cooldowns. You do know it doesn’t have to be either or, right?

exeeter702

Crow_IX

This entire post seems to ignore the pvp side of mechanics.

JinMori

Auztinito wrote: »

JayKwellen wrote: »

So combat will become "Put a status effect on someone and light attack them to death"?

Only being able to put an effect on one person and having a long cool down attached would 100%, completely, and in absolute totality, kill PvP.

No thank you. Slow cool down based combat is antithetical to the very core of what ESOs combat is, and has no business here. If I wanted long cooldowns and slow combat I'd go play a different MMO.

I don’t play the PvP so I can’t make an assessment on that but I’d like to see less skill spam and hotbar flipping in the game period because it feels twitchy and clunky currently. It doesn’t help that classes and weapon skill trees need more skills to choose from. Not to mention, vet content needs to have more diversity among players.

How about no.

Auztinito

JinMori wrote: »

How about no.

How about yes.

BXR_Lonestar

There are builds out there that emphasize light/heavy attacks for DPS rather than "ability spam." You will still need to lay down some DoTs/AOE damage to make sure there is no drop in DPS between light/heavy attacks, but they are very functional. Some are one-bar builds while others are 2-bar builds and are a little more complex, based on your level of play.

Also, a 2 pet sorc is basically a heavy attack build. I run 2 Pets + Maw on mine and I basically lay down wall of elements, liquid lightning, and Daedric Prey and go to town with heavy attacks and he gets pretty darn good DPS - good enough that me and my gf can 2 man vet content on our pet sorcs.

There are even one-bar NB and Warden bow builds, so this applies whether your preference is magika or stamina.

Disclaimer: I've not used any of these builds so I can't speak personally about how effective they are, but the build videos often have parse information which at least showcase the build's damage potential.

JinMori

Auztinito wrote: »

JinMori wrote: »

How about no.

How about yes.

No i don't think so, the game is already pretty bad, you also wanna slow it down with everything having like a 30 second cd?What exactly are we gonna have as a rotaion, spam 5 or 6 skills every 30 seconds or so? If that's your design, have you ever even thought about it? Are you actually serious? Because honestly i cannot take this "suggestion" seriously.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Hard pass from me. Fast paced combat coupled with global cooldowns (not skill cooldowns) is what separates ESO from other games, and to be candid, what makes it the best around (when it is working, anyways...).

Auztinito

JinMori wrote: »

No i don't think so, the game is already pretty bad, you also wanna slow it down with everything having like a 30 second cd?What exactly are we gonna have as a rotaion, spam 5 or 6 skills every 30 seconds or so? If that's your design, have you ever even thought about it? Are you actually serious? Because honestly i cannot take this "suggestion" seriously.

Initially, the suggestion isn't supposed to slow down the game. It's to make the game more of an action MMO where it's not about rotations. It focuses on flanking, blocking, countering, status effects that stun / slow down enemies, dodging, and timing heavies attacks. You do know there doesn't have to be rotations in action titles, right? For example, BDO has combos that you can make a rotation out of but it makes you predictable in PvP. The best action combat systems rely on player choice and adaptability in enemy encounters.

For example, if someone does combo X followed up with Y. It's predictable and becomes repetitive moreso when enemy encounters are not engaging and pretty static. This happens often in ESO. Whereas in games that allow players to use abilities/combos in a freeform environment allowing them to dodge or switch gears. This provides a tactical element to combat.

A ESO example would be having an escape tool/skill to allow players to change tactics in a split second to go defensive or change their offensive strategy.

Athan1

ESO is a mindless weapon mash. Whoever mashes ("weaves") more light attacks wins. There's no time to even think about rotation.

This is evident by the fact that so many buffs last for 3-4 sec. You're luckly if they go to 10 sec.

Lum1on

Auztinito wrote: »

Wow. That’s funny. It didn’t take long to be jumped by fanatics. I don’t want to turn this into a tab-target MMO. I’d like to see more purpose to skill usage and skill choice than just spam damage skills and animation canceling with light attacks. Do you seriously think it makes this WoW if they had longer cooldowns on skills. Black Desert has longer cooldowns and that’s a full blown action MMO.

Secondly, WoW and most tab-targets don’t even use auto-attacks as a main form of damage, they rely on abilities in a hotbar. It’s interesting, that you’d suggest WoW because of “evil” cooldowns.

Honestly, most action games frown upon spamming 2-3 skills. Even single player RPGs have games that don’t revolve around spamming skills. If anything, ESO is just action version of WoW without cooldowns, at this point.

BDO sure has skill cooldowns, but you forgot that you can actually still use those skills even if they're on cooldown. The damage they deal is just a lot less, can't remember about all the debuffs how they worked though. Anyways, this is completely different game in almost all of the aspects than BDO - both in PVP and PVE and I wouldn't compare these two. I like them both, though: ESO is far more relaxing whereas BDO requires more attention and is more precise. (Talking about PVE combat.)

Haven't played WOW but light/heavy attacks in ESO are more than just "dealing damage". At least in BDO this isn't the case and I feel like this makes ESO more unique; you generate ultimate, there are interactions (with sets and whatnot) whenever you deal light/heavy attacks, there are glyphs that can debuff or damage the target and even provide something to you, such as resources or buffs.

If you're looking for a game that has skill cooldowns and you don't want to have spammable skills, then, like others have already mentioned, maybe ESO is not a game for you. If you like other parts of this game instead of combat maybe you can "grow into it".

Also, not sure is it just me, or you, but saying "just action version of WOW without cooldowns, at this point." makes it sound that ESO is a game project trying to copy WOW and it should be changed because of that. ESO has been around since 2014 and as far as I can tell the combat system has worked the same way it is working today. So you really can't say "at this point". It has always been, currently is, and most likely will always be like that.

Artorias24

Auztinito wrote: »

JinMori wrote: »

No i don't think so, the game is already pretty bad, you also wanna slow it down with everything having like a 30 second cd?What exactly are we gonna have as a rotaion, spam 5 or 6 skills every 30 seconds or so? If that's your design, have you ever even thought about it? Are you actually serious? Because honestly i cannot take this "suggestion" seriously.

For example, BDO has combos that you can make a rotation out of but it makes you predictable in PvP. The best action combat systems rely on player choice and adaptability in enemy encounters.

You Said you never tried eso PvP combat and now come up with BDO and how a static rotation makes you predictable in BDO PvP.

ESO PvP is so fast and you have to adapt to every move your enemy does. Be it defensive, offensive. Change your combo to break his defensiv, apply pressure, debuffs, block or dodge attacks.

Sure there are preditable combos like the stamden Sub, Dizzy into Dawnbreaker but even that can be changed to be more unpreditable.

Try every part of ESO combat system in depth before you come up with a 100% rework.

Auztinito

Lum1on wrote: »

BDO sure has skill cooldowns, but you forgot that you can actually still use those skills even if they're on cooldown. The damage they deal is just a lot less, can't remember about all the debuffs how they worked though. Anyways, this is completely different game in almost all of the aspects than BDO - both in PVP and PVE and I wouldn't compare these two. I like them both, though: ESO is far more relaxing whereas BDO requires more attention and is more precise. (Talking about PVE combat.)

Haven't played WOW but light/heavy attacks in ESO are more than just "dealing damage". At least in BDO this isn't the case and I feel like this makes ESO more unique; you generate ultimate, there are interactions (with sets and whatnot) whenever you deal light/heavy attacks, there are glyphs that can debuff or damage the target and even provide something to you, such as resources or buffs.

If you're looking for a game that has skill cooldowns and you don't want to have spammable skills, then, like others have already mentioned, maybe ESO is not a game for you. If you like other parts of this game instead of combat maybe you can "grow into it".

Also, not sure is it just me, or you, but saying "just action version of WOW without cooldowns, at this point." makes it sound that ESO is a game project trying to copy WOW and it should be changed because of that. ESO has been around since 2014 and as far as I can tell the combat system has worked the same way it is working today. So you really can't say "at this point". It has always been, currently is, and most likely will always be like that.

Some skills like Sorc’s Shield of Darkness / Nova’s Command: Fianchetto have a strict CD to prevent spamming. This is usual for big damage abilities, debuffs, and buff skills.

That’s actually the reason, I’d like to see an overhaul. ESO combat is not as engaging or flexible. I want to pay attention to the combat and not roll my eyes because its difficultly resides in HP and Damage Output of Enemies that’s balanced around using Light Weaving, Hotbar Flipping, and META dps. It’s not a great action combat system if it can be played in Auto-Pilot mode (As an accessibility option it would be great, though).

The WoW comment was directed to those under the impression that CD = World of Warcraft. When this game can easily seen as WoW without CD skills and less to choose/use.

Also, that’s the thing with overhauling systems. They seem capable of overhauling the combat system because of the recent overhaul of CP. So, I figured I give feedback that I would like to see it overhauled in a way that makes the game more diverse in builds, less rotation-based, and less spam “square” by making abilities more utility-based and damage skills being power moves with the bulk of damage coming from light/heavy attacks.

SupremeRissole

MashmalloMan wrote: »

You're playing the wrong game, they're not fanatics, they purchased and have played this game for 5-7 years with the core concepts of the game remaining the same. You're the one asking to change the very core of how this games combat is handled. That by definition is an entirely different game and it won't ever happen, not this late into the games life cycle.

The problem with your idea of 40-50s cooldowns is it would become extremely stale with only 10-12 abilities we use currently.

So how do you fix that problem? You add more skills, you allow players to slot 20+ skills because seriously, who wants to cast 10 skills and then light attack, heavy attack and block for the remaining 30 seconds. That sounds incredibly boring. While it's not impossible like some are saying to add more skills to a controller, it definitely complicates things and what you're describing is starting to sound like 95% of every other mmo with 50 skills and items on your skill bar.

Now we have an entirely different problem in that you've complicated the core design of the game so far that we're all stuck watching ability cooldowns to make sure we can use the next skill available while constantly swapping ability bars to do so.

That in itself is a different game, many players like how simple the ability system in this game is handled, it forces you to choose instead of slotting everything, this is what creates build diversity and thought.

And your ideas for having different abilities do different things is entirely how pvp already works, everyone there is strapped for space because you need 1 cc, 1 sustain, 1 execute, 1 spammable, maybe 1 escape, 1 damage buff, 1 armor buff, etc. Pve dps is impossible to avoid 7+ skills used for damage because we don't want to CC pve mobs in this game because it either makes them immune preventing the tank from doing its job or it simply doesn't work because we can't CC bosses to begin with. We don't slot many heals because thats the healers job. We don't slot taunts because thats the tanks job, so what do you expect?

Completely true. You either love the unique combat of ESO, or you prefer the standard MMO huge hotbar/cooldown setup.
The combat in ESO is what keeps me playing after 6 years and to add cooldowns to abilities would completely change the game away from what we have loved for years. Cooldowns are boring no matter how you do it.

In summary, if you want something as fundamental as the combat (which is unique to ESO) to change to something similar to other MMO's, you're playing the wrong game.Find an MMO that suits your tastes, clearly ESO isn't for you.

Auztinito

SupremeRissole wrote: »

Completely true. You either love the unique combat of ESO, or you prefer the standard MMO huge hotbar/cooldown setup.
The combat in ESO is what keeps me playing after 6 years and to add cooldowns to abilities would completely change the game away from what we have loved for years. Cooldowns are boring no matter how you do it.

In summary, if you want something as fundamental as the combat (which is unique to ESO) to change to something similar to other MMO's, you're playing the wrong game.Find an MMO that suits your tastes, clearly ESO isn't for you.

Not liking ESO's "unique" combat means I like WoW and want standard MMO combat. Yeah. Great logic there. If I follow along with it, I may come to realize 2 + 2 = 17.

If you have followed along this thread at all and have played any other action MMO's you'd know there are different and much better ways to make combat more fluid, engaging, and retain uniqueness. I think you're just a fanatic that can't handle critique or a suggestion.

I think I'll stick with the game and do combat however I want in group content and continue to ask for changes to make it better. If you don't like it, follow your own advice and move along.

JinMori

MashmalloMan wrote: »

You're playing the wrong game, they're not fanatics, they purchased and have played this game for 5-7 years with the core concepts of the game remaining the same. You're the one asking to change the very core of how this games combat is handled. That by definition is an entirely different game and it won't ever happen, not this late into the games life cycle.

The problem with your idea of 40-50s cooldowns is it would become extremely stale with only 10-12 abilities we use currently.

So how do you fix that problem? You add more skills, you allow players to slot 20+ skills because seriously, who wants to cast 10 skills and then light attack, heavy attack and block for the remaining 30 seconds. That sounds incredibly boring. While it's not impossible like some are saying to add more skills to a controller, it definitely complicates things and what you're describing is starting to sound like 95% of every other mmo with 50 skills and items on your skill bar.

Now we have an entirely different problem in that you've complicated the core design of the game so far that we're all stuck watching ability cooldowns to make sure we can use the next skill available while constantly swapping ability bars to do so.

That in itself is a different game, many players like how simple the ability system in this game is handled, it forces you to choose instead of slotting everything, this is what creates build diversity and thought.

And your ideas for having different abilities do different things is entirely how pvp already works, everyone there is strapped for space because you need 1 cc, 1 sustain, 1 execute, 1 spammable, maybe 1 escape, 1 damage buff, 1 armor buff, etc. Pve dps is impossible to avoid 7+ skills used for damage because we don't want to CC pve mobs in this game because it either makes them immune preventing the tank from doing its job or it simply doesn't work because we can't CC bosses to begin with. We don't slot many heals because thats the healers job. We don't slot taunts because thats the tanks job, so what do you expect?

Not even wow has most rotational skills on a 30 sec cd, so even if we give it the best case scenario, mmos that have lots of abilities, it still does not make sense.

Wow for example has usually some abilities that have no gcd, some that have a gcd and no cd, and some, usually cooldowns that are not exactly part of the core rotation, that have long cooldowns.

So in the end you generally always have something to do, the suggestion that op brought up, is really hideous for the kind of game that eso is, i would personally like another skill slot or two, but cooldown on every ability, no, not a chance.

Some people always talk about slower=more methodical, and faster =more spammy, as if spammy is a bad thing, look dude, you just want slower combat, it's not more methodical, or you have to think more, if anything you have to think less, because you are pushing less buttons, and have more time to think about what to do next, while with faster combat you have to think about what to do next, but at a faster time, so which does involve more thinking?

You just want slower combat, usually because you cannot be compatitive otherwise, that's what i think, and honestly, for most people that want this, i think i am right, you are definitely gonna deny it though.

Brrrofski

While this is a pointless thread because the change wouldn't happen in a million years (thank god), you can play the game like that is you wish OP.

There's plenty of ways to play a heavy attack build, using dots and debuffs and then heavy attacking.

I mean, I don't see how that's more interesting than actually using skills and combining them with light attacks, but each to their own.

Auztinito

JinMori wrote: »

Not even wow has most rotational skills on a 30 sec cd, so even if we give it the best case scenario, mmos that have lots of abilities, it still does not make sense.

Wow for example has usually some abilities that have no gcd, some that have a gcd and no cd, and some, usually cooldowns that are not exactly part of the core rotation, that have long cooldowns.

So in the end you generally always have something to do, the suggestion that op brought up, is really hideous for the kind of game that eso is, i would personally like another skill slot or two, but cooldown on every ability, no, not a chance.

Some people always talk about slower=more methodical, and faster =more spammy, as if spammy is a bad thing, look dude, you just want slower combat, it's not more methodical, or you have to think more, if anything you have to think less, because you are pushing less buttons, and have more time to think about what to do next, while with faster combat you have to think about what to do next, but at a faster time, so which does involve more thinking?

You just want slower combat, usually because you cannot be compatitive otherwise, that's what i think, and honestly, for most people that want this, i think i am right, you are definitely gonna deny it though.

I didn't know Black Desert was slow? Hmm. I guess every action game and action MMO in the past decade is slow compared to this, right? Like the other person, you'd argue that its unique to believe 2 + 2 = 22 when it just dumb. How much do you seriously think about in this game's combat. I can play this game on Auto-Pilot and it's just extremely spammy (God of War on the easiest difficulty spammy).

AI is beyond simplistic in behavior

Most group content is tank/spank tactics

Most mechanics revolve around dps checks

Build Diversity is strung along with meta balancing

Combat relies on spamming 1 damage ability with the rest on debuffs, buffs, and damage over time abilities and switching weapons (hotbars).

Meta dictates balance and strains any forms of build diversity.

You are frankly a fan of this combat because you can't hack it at an actual action MMO or tab-target MMO.(If I was to imitate your logic)

If we were to look at my suggestion completely. 2 things disprove that it will slow down combat.

1. TTK to kill enemies in combat goes up drastically. Did you just not read Lights and Heavies are buffed to do more damage? Or did you see a topic criticizing the combat and lose your ***? If lights and heavies are doing more damage and the AI is not buffed in HP pools then it would stand to reason that you'd kill much faster than you do now with just lights/heavies attacks.

2. Since every skill is some type of utility or massive damage skill and AI is suggested to attack more frequently with more moves in their set. It becomes more like an action game and action games usually boast about higher TTK. In this case, damage abilities will be destructive and would probably severely damage bosses and obliterate adds to nothing. Just imagine if Meteor was a normal ability that actually did the damage an actual meteor would do to adds and bosses.

3. As for the lack of reading on your part on more skills. I suggested more skills to choose from not 10-12 skill hotbars. If anything, this adds to build diversity. It's also imperative that these skills not be just be "bait" skills like a good selection of them are currently. Imagine if every player could use whatever abilities they wanted that matched their playstyle and wasn't told they can't do vet content. I think you'd have more people running vet content which can mean more healers and tanks. It's almost like it opens the game up to more players and adds more choice to classes.

Auztinito

Brrrofski wrote: »

While this is a pointless thread because the change wouldn't happen in a million years (thank god), you can play the game like that is you wish OP.

There's plenty of ways to play a heavy attack build, using dots and debuffs and then heavy attacking.

I mean, I don't see how that's more interesting than actually using skills and combining them with light attacks, but each to their own.

Well, light weaving plus no cd makes the combat lack any impact to the abilities being used.

For example, you'd expect flurry to be impactful and look/feel amazing but it looks/feels like a skill meant for a tab-target MMO made by 10-12 devs where skills have no weight/feel floaty because it wants to be an action MMO. In short, the current system feels like a tab-target MMO imitating an Action MMO. The only thing this has in common with ant action game is that it's in real time.

HankTwo

I wish there would be a disagree button for threads like this

Grimlok_S

JayKwellen wrote: »

So combat will become "Put a status effect on someone and light attack them to death"?

Only being able to put an effect on one person and having a long cool down attached would 100%, completely, and in absolute totality, kill PvP.

No thank you. Slow cool down based combat is antithetical to the very core of what ESOs combat is, and has no business here. If I wanted long cooldowns and slow combat I'd go play a different MMO.

NGL that sounds exactly like the rotation for many of the proc builds we see in this meta today. LOL