Bring back instant cast ultis & block cancelling in 2021!!!

Lephrel

Even though this has been discussed many times already, I thought I'd make a post on the subject of block/anim cancelling for 2021.


In order to appease a small but vocal minority, which has been campaigning for the removal of skill based combat since release, ZOS decided to remove block cancelling from the game and added a 400ms cast time to instant damage ultimates. It was one of many recent changes that were universally despised by the (endgame) community. Yet in typical ZOS fashion, they pushed it through anyways, completely oblivious to the many complaints of the playerbase.

The results are clunky animations and sluggish rotations in combat. Gameplay that once looked dynamic and elegant, now seems boring and slow. I should also point out that ZOS was completely on board with the idea of cancelling drawn out animations. They specifically designed the necromancer animations, so they would look good when block cancelled (there's literally a vid where they talk about that). Alas ZOS was pressured into changing their views by a select group of people, i.e. the kind of players that cry "shieldbot" whenever they are killed by a sorc.
Additionally, ultimates have become notoriously unreliable, as they often fail to hit their targets. When using dawnbreaker this becomes painfully apparent - the skill misses more often than it lands.
But that's not all: Apart from being detrimental to ESO combat, the changes were also sloppily implemented - of course, that's something we've come to expect from ZOS ^^.
Some skills can still be block cancelled (e.g. warden deep fissure) and others can't, and some skills have far longer animations than others, which results in their animations being cut off when a new skill is cast.
Block cancelling is just one of the many casualties of Zeni's crusade to dumb down and homogenise the game. But why are they doing this, why do they insist on draining every ounce of fun from the game? Imo the entertainment value is literally the most important quality of any game - seemingly ZOS disagrees.

I know some people asked for these changes, probably the same people asking for underwater combat. Seriously though, it's not like the animation actually allows you to react to a skill before it hits. And there's still plenty of visual cues to tell you which skills hit you (i.e. you still see cc and other effects on your character and you still see incoming projectiles), not to mention you can also hear the skills fire. Anyone advocating the removal AC and LA weaving is trying to circumvent and L2P issue imo.

So please, please bring back block cancelling and remove the ulti cast times @ZOS!

Lephrel

Inb4 someone posts this.

exeeter702

Block canceling doesn't actually do anything unless you have to actually block an incoming attack. This has been a universal truth that has existed since day one of this games beta.

You cutting off the recovery animations of skills that play out during the GCD refresh only serves as a means to cut into your stamina recovery.

You are not expediting any effect of a skill or improving the window of time that you can use a subsequent ability as canceling the recovery animation does not circumvent the GCD, and it never has. Ever.

You might see combat text appear on your screen sooner but that has nothing to do with the recipient of an attack and what they see on their client in regards to how the server handles the query.

Extinct_Solo_Player

exeeter702 wrote: »

Block canceling doesn't actually do anything unless you have to actually block an incoming attack. This has been a universal truth that has existed since day one of this games beta.

You cutting off the recovery animations of skills that play out during the GCD refresh only serves as a means to cut into your stamina recovery.

You are not expediting any effect of a skill or improving the window of time that you can use a subsequent ability as canceling the recovery animation does not circumvent the GCD, and it never has. Ever.

You might see combat text appear on your screen sooner but that has nothing to do with the recipient of an attack and what they see on their client in regards to how the server handles the query.

doesn't change the fact that block cancelling makes the combat look way more fluid and smooth

Bat

Extinct_Solo_Player wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Block canceling doesn't actually do anything unless you have to actually block an incoming attack. This has been a universal truth that has existed since day one of this games beta.

You cutting off the recovery animations of skills that play out during the GCD refresh only serves as a means to cut into your stamina recovery.

You are not expediting any effect of a skill or improving the window of time that you can use a subsequent ability as canceling the recovery animation does not circumvent the GCD, and it never has. Ever.

You might see combat text appear on your screen sooner but that has nothing to do with the recipient of an attack and what they see on their client in regards to how the server handles the query.

doesn't change the fact that block cancelling makes the combat look way more fluid and smooth

Plus, block cancelling also cancelled the sound bites that come with each animation. Now we have to hear constant aarghs, uuughs, wraaahrs and hnaas from our characters all the time and it's just ridiculous.

exeeter702

Extinct_Solo_Player wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Block canceling doesn't actually do anything unless you have to actually block an incoming attack. This has been a universal truth that has existed since day one of this games beta.

You cutting off the recovery animations of skills that play out during the GCD refresh only serves as a means to cut into your stamina recovery.

You are not expediting any effect of a skill or improving the window of time that you can use a subsequent ability as canceling the recovery animation does not circumvent the GCD, and it never has. Ever.

You might see combat text appear on your screen sooner but that has nothing to do with the recipient of an attack and what they see on their client in regards to how the server handles the query.

doesn't change the fact that block cancelling makes the combat look way more fluid and smooth

If I've learned anything over the nearly 5 years of being on these forums, it's that there is nothing more important then making sure the objective facts of "animation canceling" are laid bare before you can even begin to have a productive discussion on the subject.

There are many who would argue visually speaking it, it actually looks more jarring. I'm am completely indifferent to that criticism either way, so long as the functionality of combat remains as intended, as it always has despite what people think they know about animation canceling and it being a bug or something that was embraced because they couldnt fix it, all of which is nonsense where wrobel and jessica folsoms comments are misinterpreted or taken out of context.

Regarding the block changes specifically, Gilliams video kind of approached the issue and explained why it was mainly a user misconception with what they were seeing on their client and what was actually being resolved by the server and what the recipient would see. What ended up hapening is that with how the previous version of blocking was handled, it created situations where health bars would desync client side based on user input that would not accurately convey what the server was actually resolving, which ended up creating moments where players felt they were being robbed by lag or other issues, where in reality, server side, everything played out as it should have.

Lephrel

exeeter702 wrote: »

Block canceling doesn't actually do anything unless you have to actually block an incoming attack. This has been a universal truth that has existed since day one of this games beta.

You cutting off the recovery animations of skills that play out during the GCD refresh only serves as a means to cut into your stamina recovery.

You are not expediting any effect of a skill or improving the window of time that you can use a subsequent ability as canceling the recovery animation does not circumvent the GCD, and it never has. Ever.

You might see combat text appear on your screen sooner but that has nothing to do with the recipient of an attack and what they see on their client in regards to how the server handles the query.

I'm not sure which side you are arguing for. Yes it's true that blocking can cancel your regen ticks, so if anything you're putting yourself at a disadvantage by cancelling. Therefore there is no harm in bringing it back, right?
In spite of that, most people used to block cancel. I guess that just shows you how everyone preferred the more fluid feel of combat.

Sanctum74

exeeter702 wrote: »

Block canceling doesn't actually do anything unless you have to actually block an incoming attack. This has been a universal truth that has existed since day one of this games beta.

You cutting off the recovery animations of skills that play out during the GCD refresh only serves as a means to cut into your stamina recovery.

You are not expediting any effect of a skill or improving the window of time that you can use a subsequent ability as canceling the recovery animation does not circumvent the GCD, and it never has. Ever.

You might see combat text appear on your screen sooner but that has nothing to do with the recipient of an attack and what they see on their client in regards to how the server handles the query.

Some skill animations exceed the GCD, so yes block canceling did have benefits to speeding up combat in those cases.

exeeter702

Sanctum74 wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Block canceling doesn't actually do anything unless you have to actually block an incoming attack. This has been a universal truth that has existed since day one of this games beta.

You cutting off the recovery animations of skills that play out during the GCD refresh only serves as a means to cut into your stamina recovery.

You are not expediting any effect of a skill or improving the window of time that you can use a subsequent ability as canceling the recovery animation does not circumvent the GCD, and it never has. Ever.

You might see combat text appear on your screen sooner but that has nothing to do with the recipient of an attack and what they see on their client in regards to how the server handles the query.

Some skill animations exceed the GCD, so yes block canceling did have benefits to speeding up combat in those cases.

No actually, the edge cases where the recovery animation of skills clipped into the GCD (wall of elements for ex) would have been cut off all the same with a LA weave.

Sanctum74

exeeter702 wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Block canceling doesn't actually do anything unless you have to actually block an incoming attack. This has been a universal truth that has existed since day one of this games beta.

You cutting off the recovery animations of skills that play out during the GCD refresh only serves as a means to cut into your stamina recovery.

You are not expediting any effect of a skill or improving the window of time that you can use a subsequent ability as canceling the recovery animation does not circumvent the GCD, and it never has. Ever.

You might see combat text appear on your screen sooner but that has nothing to do with the recipient of an attack and what they see on their client in regards to how the server handles the query.

Some skill animations exceed the GCD, so yes block canceling did have benefits to speeding up combat in those cases.

No actually, the edge cases where the recovery animation of skills clipped into the GCD (wall of elements for ex) would have been cut off all the same with a LA weave.

Yeah I guess you’re right. When doing an offensive rotation I always light attack anyway, but for a defensive rotation I always used to use block canceling cause it feels weird to light attack when you’re not hitting anyone. Guess it was all in my head just like the voices

exeeter702

Sanctum74 wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Block canceling doesn't actually do anything unless you have to actually block an incoming attack. This has been a universal truth that has existed since day one of this games beta.

You cutting off the recovery animations of skills that play out during the GCD refresh only serves as a means to cut into your stamina recovery.

You are not expediting any effect of a skill or improving the window of time that you can use a subsequent ability as canceling the recovery animation does not circumvent the GCD, and it never has. Ever.

You might see combat text appear on your screen sooner but that has nothing to do with the recipient of an attack and what they see on their client in regards to how the server handles the query.

Some skill animations exceed the GCD, so yes block canceling did have benefits to speeding up combat in those cases.

No actually, the edge cases where the recovery animation of skills clipped into the GCD (wall of elements for ex) would have been cut off all the same with a LA weave.

Yeah I guess you’re right. When doing an offensive rotation I always light attack anyway, but for a defensive rotation I always used to use block canceling cause it feels weird to light attack when you’re not hitting anyone. Guess it was all in my head just like the voices

If you didnt have anything to actually block then it wouldnt have mattered If there was no action necessary after the use of a skill that had a recovery animation that went slightly past the GCD, then you would have simply not pressed anything and it would have looked visually natural.

caperb

Sanctum74 wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Block canceling doesn't actually do anything unless you have to actually block an incoming attack. This has been a universal truth that has existed since day one of this games beta.

You cutting off the recovery animations of skills that play out during the GCD refresh only serves as a means to cut into your stamina recovery.

You are not expediting any effect of a skill or improving the window of time that you can use a subsequent ability as canceling the recovery animation does not circumvent the GCD, and it never has. Ever.

You might see combat text appear on your screen sooner but that has nothing to do with the recipient of an attack and what they see on their client in regards to how the server handles the query.

Some skill animations exceed the GCD, so yes block canceling did have benefits to speeding up combat in those cases.

Did they not already shorten a lot of these animations so that block cancelling would not be needed anymore? If not then yes block cancelling should return.

Lephrel

caperb wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Block canceling doesn't actually do anything unless you have to actually block an incoming attack. This has been a universal truth that has existed since day one of this games beta.

You cutting off the recovery animations of skills that play out during the GCD refresh only serves as a means to cut into your stamina recovery.

You are not expediting any effect of a skill or improving the window of time that you can use a subsequent ability as canceling the recovery animation does not circumvent the GCD, and it never has. Ever.

You might see combat text appear on your screen sooner but that has nothing to do with the recipient of an attack and what they see on their client in regards to how the server handles the query.

Some skill animations exceed the GCD, so yes block canceling did have benefits to speeding up combat in those cases.

Did they not already shorten a lot of these animations so that block cancelling would not be needed anymore? If not then yes block cancelling should return.

Some animations are still way too long (e.g. arctic blast, vines, netch), but those animations are simply overwritten once you cast another skill.
So block cancelling isn't necessary to stay within the gcd.
It was used either to block an incoming skill or to make your own skills look snappier. Imo nothing looked cooler than an block cancelled dawnbreaker for example.

Lephrel

Bat wrote: »

Extinct_Solo_Player wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Block canceling doesn't actually do anything unless you have to actually block an incoming attack. This has been a universal truth that has existed since day one of this games beta.

You cutting off the recovery animations of skills that play out during the GCD refresh only serves as a means to cut into your stamina recovery.

You are not expediting any effect of a skill or improving the window of time that you can use a subsequent ability as canceling the recovery animation does not circumvent the GCD, and it never has. Ever.

You might see combat text appear on your screen sooner but that has nothing to do with the recipient of an attack and what they see on their client in regards to how the server handles the query.

doesn't change the fact that block cancelling makes the combat look way more fluid and smooth

Plus, block cancelling also cancelled the sound bites that come with each animation. Now we have to hear constant aarghs, uuughs, wraaahrs and hnaas from our characters all the time and it's just ridiculous.

Haha yes, that too is annoying. ^^

OneForSorrow

I wasn't aware block cancelling was removed but I've been gone for quite a while.

I've been part of the group talking about weaving via light attack cancelling needing to go away, though. To me it's not that weaving itself is bad, it's that the game was never originally built with animation cancelling as a rotational thing in mind. I know it's not a bug in the eyes of the devs but it was still an unintended form of gameplay... And boy howdy does the game's structure and the bad servers show it.

I would like to see cancelling as a rotational option be taken away UNTIL they increase server performance. Until then a very large number of players who could probably pull off these rotations in terms of skill will be unable to because of ping or the server deciding you didn't use an ability when you definitely have.

Basically: I vote remove cancelling in rotations or actively support it by tightening server responsiveness (which really I think we all want whether we do end game stuff or not)

exeeter702

OneForSorrow wrote: »

I've been part of the group talking about weaving via light attack cancelling needing to go away, though. To me it's not that weaving itself is bad, it's that the game was never originally built with animation cancelling as a rotational thing in mind. I know it's not a bug in the eyes of the devs but it was still an unintended form of gameplay... And boy howdy does the game's structure and the bad servers show it.

I would like to see cancelling as a rotational option be taken away UNTIL they increase server performance. Until then a very large number of players who could probably pull off these rotations in terms of skill will be unable to because of ping or the server deciding you didn't use an ability when you definitely have.

Basically: I vote remove cancelling in rotations or actively support it by tightening server responsiveness (which really I think we all want whether we do end game stuff or not)

Light attack weaving was specifically designed that way since the very inception of the game. Its for this very specific reason that basic attacks do not trigger the GCD yet they adhere to it. There is a .5 second buffer time to all skills and attacks in this game. if you activate an instant cast ability, the GCD will initialize, at .5 seconds into it, the game (by design since day 1 of this game going live) allows you to input a basic attack followed by another ability that lines up with the GCD refresh. LA weaving was always intended as it was specifically meant to serve as this MMOS version of the "auto attack" or "white attack" as known in other mmorpgs, only here, by the nature of the combat system, it was player input and not automated.

The only reason animations get cut off is simply because it is entirely impractical to animate a skill that makes visual sense where its entire animation - startup>point of contact, (where damage is displayed client side)>recovery animation(where the character is visually recovering from the physics of the strike) within less than 30 frames (.5 seconds).

Nothing about this system was an unintended side effect that was embraced.

You either have an action based system that arbitrarily locks you into recovery animations, disallowing you to defend or move out of harms way so that animations arent cut off and look more natural, which would feel abysmal for a fast paced action combat mmorpg. ESO is not physics based and has to handle multiple server queries from multiple different players in a given instance at any time. This is why all mmos have some form of GCD.

or you move the resolve points for attacks and abilities (the point where the server calculates and displays damage etc) to the tail end of the recovery animation, while greatly speeding up the full animation to fully animate in .5 seconds, making combat a visually disjointed and incoherent mess.

exeeter702

OneForSorrow wrote: »

I wasn't aware block cancelling was removed but I've been gone for quite a while.

It wasnt technically removed. Your character simplly no longer visualizes the blocking stance animation immediately upon pressing block if the recovery animation of the recently used ability is still playing out between the GCD. You still get the shield icon in front of your character to signify you are in a blocking state however, and your character will transition into the blocking stance shortly after the recovery animation for an ability concludes (give or take). The window for which you are afforded the opportunity to gain blocking status has not changed.

Lephrel wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Block canceling doesn't actually do anything unless you have to actually block an incoming attack. This has been a universal truth that has existed since day one of this games beta.

You cutting off the recovery animations of skills that play out during the GCD refresh only serves as a means to cut into your stamina recovery.

You are not expediting any effect of a skill or improving the window of time that you can use a subsequent ability as canceling the recovery animation does not circumvent the GCD, and it never has. Ever.

You might see combat text appear on your screen sooner but that has nothing to do with the recipient of an attack and what they see on their client in regards to how the server handles the query.

I'm not sure which side you are arguing for. Yes it's true that blocking can cancel your regen ticks, so if anything you're putting yourself at a disadvantage by cancelling. Therefore there is no harm in bringing it back, right?
In spite of that, most people used to block cancel. I guess that just shows you how everyone preferred the more fluid feel of combat.

I dont know the code for the game obviously, but with block check being server side now, i dont know if there is an issue with keeping it that way while reverting the client side animation change without risking the client side desync issues returing, which was why the change was made in the first place The "harm" that would come back is the harm that they were trying to mitigate in the first place with the change.

Lephrel

exeeter702 wrote: »

OneForSorrow wrote: »

I wasn't aware block cancelling was removed but I've been gone for quite a while.

I dont know the code for the game obviously, but with block check being server side now, i dont know if there is an issue with keeping it that way while reverting the client side animation change without risking the client side desync issues returing, which was why the change was made in the first place.

Well honestly I'd rather have everyone see my character twitch around awkwardly while casting skills, but a purely client side cancelling of the animations would already be fine.
Also regardless of what they do with block cancelling, the 400ms ulti cast times are a disaster that should immediately be removed. I really don't see why I shouldn't be able to dodge or barswap after casting my ultimate.

OneForSorrow

exeeter702 wrote: »

OneForSorrow wrote: »

I've been part of the group talking about weaving via light attack cancelling needing to go away, though. To me it's not that weaving itself is bad, it's that the game was never originally built with animation cancelling as a rotational thing in mind. I know it's not a bug in the eyes of the devs but it was still an unintended form of gameplay... And boy howdy does the game's structure and the bad servers show it.

I would like to see cancelling as a rotational option be taken away UNTIL they increase server performance. Until then a very large number of players who could probably pull off these rotations in terms of skill will be unable to because of ping or the server deciding you didn't use an ability when you definitely have.

Basically: I vote remove cancelling in rotations or actively support it by tightening server responsiveness (which really I think we all want whether we do end game stuff or not)

Light attack weaving was specifically designed that way since the very inception of the game. Its for this very specific reason that basic attacks do not trigger the GCD yet they adhere to it. There is a .5 second buffer time to all skills and attacks in this game. if you activate an instant cast ability, the GCD will initialize, at .5 seconds into it, the game (by design since day 1 of this game going live) allows you to input a basic attack followed by another ability that lines up with the GCD refresh. LA weaving was always intended as it was specifically meant to serve as this MMOS version of the "auto attack" or "white attack" as known in other mmorpgs, only here, by the nature of the combat system, it was player input and not automated.

The only reason animations get cut off is simply because it is entirely impractical to animate a skill that makes visual sense where its entire animation - startup>point of contact, (where damage is displayed client side)>recovery animation(where the character is visually recovering from the physics of the strike) within less than 30 frames (.5 seconds).

Nothing about this system was an unintended side effect that was embraced.

You either have an action based system that arbitrarily locks you into recovery animations, disallowing you to defend or move out of harms way so that animations arent cut off and look more natural, which would feel abysmal for a fast paced action combat mmorpg. ESO is not physics based and has to handle multiple server queries from multiple different players in a given instance at any time. This is why all mmos have some form of GCD.

or you move the resolve points for attacks and abilities (the point where the server calculates and displays damage etc) to the tail end of the recovery animation, while greatly speeding up the full animation to fully animate in .5 seconds, making combat a visually disjointed and incoherent mess.

If it was indeed intended to be the backbone of a dps rotation rather than an improvement to flow then they could do literally anything to make it feel better.

My point is mostly that as we are using it now, the server lag can get hugely in the way.

Lephrel

OneForSorrow wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

OneForSorrow wrote: »

I've been part of the group talking about weaving via light attack cancelling needing to go away, though. To me it's not that weaving itself is bad, it's that the game was never originally built with animation cancelling as a rotational thing in mind. I know it's not a bug in the eyes of the devs but it was still an unintended form of gameplay... And boy howdy does the game's structure and the bad servers show it.

I would like to see cancelling as a rotational option be taken away UNTIL they increase server performance. Until then a very large number of players who could probably pull off these rotations in terms of skill will be unable to because of ping or the server deciding you didn't use an ability when you definitely have.

Basically: I vote remove cancelling in rotations or actively support it by tightening server responsiveness (which really I think we all want whether we do end game stuff or not)

Light attack weaving was specifically designed that way since the very inception of the game. Its for this very specific reason that basic attacks do not trigger the GCD yet they adhere to it. There is a .5 second buffer time to all skills and attacks in this game. if you activate an instant cast ability, the GCD will initialize, at .5 seconds into it, the game (by design since day 1 of this game going live) allows you to input a basic attack followed by another ability that lines up with the GCD refresh. LA weaving was always intended as it was specifically meant to serve as this MMOS version of the "auto attack" or "white attack" as known in other mmorpgs, only here, by the nature of the combat system, it was player input and not automated.

The only reason animations get cut off is simply because it is entirely impractical to animate a skill that makes visual sense where its entire animation - startup>point of contact, (where damage is displayed client side)>recovery animation(where the character is visually recovering from the physics of the strike) within less than 30 frames (.5 seconds).

Nothing about this system was an unintended side effect that was embraced.

You either have an action based system that arbitrarily locks you into recovery animations, disallowing you to defend or move out of harms way so that animations arent cut off and look more natural, which would feel abysmal for a fast paced action combat mmorpg. ESO is not physics based and has to handle multiple server queries from multiple different players in a given instance at any time. This is why all mmos have some form of GCD.

or you move the resolve points for attacks and abilities (the point where the server calculates and displays damage etc) to the tail end of the recovery animation, while greatly speeding up the full animation to fully animate in .5 seconds, making combat a visually disjointed and incoherent mess.

If it was indeed intended to be the backbone of a dps rotation rather than an improvement to flow then they could do literally anything to make it feel better.

My point is mostly that as we are using it now, the server lag can get hugely in the way.

Well they did try to reduce the amount of damage that LAs deal in that pts test a while back. The backlash from the community was so intense, that they immediately scrapped their plans.
With regard to lag, I really don't know if LAs have any noticeable impact on server load. Either way, I wouldn't remove light attack weaving to help with lag, that would just be another example of ZOS crippling the gameplay instead of actually fixing the problem.

Lephrel

I just stumbled across some old footage that legendary mage uploaded (he played on pc eu in case you don't know him). That nostalgia from seeing the crystal frag block-cancel (and stun)...really reminded me how much fun combat was back then.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtCfOdH8ovI&ab_channel=PlayerGuides

Lephrel

Also the fact that people used to run shuffle on magsorc is really cool, I'd forgotten all about magicka shuffle. But that's really another topic, just weird how drastically playstyles can change.