year long story ruins chapters.

wolfbone

year long story chapters ruin the chapters as they end up just being a glorified over priced dlc that ends up just being the start and not an actual story. like greymoor, there was no actual story to it. at least with elsweyr, it had a story and not some build up.

DaveMoeDee

wolfbone wrote: »

year long story chapters ruin the chapters as they end up just being a glorified over priced dlc that ends up just being the start and not an actual story. like greymoor, there was no actual story to it. at least with elsweyr, it had a story and not some build up.

Or it just shows that the gaming experience would be better served just having one big expansion every year instead of spreading the content out in trickles. But they want people to stick around instead of just showing up when expansions drop and finishing content in two months.

Daemons_Bane

How can you say that Greymoor don't have a story..

PizzaCat82

I agree, I do like the dungeons leading up to the big chapter, but the DLC at the end should be like a side story, or a transition to the next one, and not the actual conclusion to the story started in the Chapter itself.

I've been a big fan of the DLCs but the story lately has been a bit hard to follow.

Kredo

Artificially stretching out the story to sell more content. More money for less work so get used it.

Aptonoth

I think they need to go back to two year stories but each year can be a single province and theme with the overarching bbeg and key characters being shared for two provinces. This would slow down new character churn and allow them to put depth into npc’s again. I love eso guys and devs who see this I don’t criticize because I hate but because I want eso to become even better quest wise.

craybest

isn't that how most MMOs do it though? the big expac releases and then the actual story finishes in future update and patches?
chapters do have their own ending in any way. even if the story is continued later on in the DLC

Aliyavana

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

How can you say that Greymoor don't have a story..

It was pretty shallow. Markarth felt much better.

Inhuman003

I think it's not about the chapter story it is more about the size of the zone and also not having College of Winterhold.

VaranisArano

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

How can you say that Greymoor don't have a story..

Its pacing was badly messed up due to the need to start advertising The Dark Heart of Skyrim in Q1 but also sell the story to brand new players. If you did the Harrowstorm dungeons or the prologue quest, you already knew that the Icereach Coven was in league with the vampires and Grey Host to do nasty stuff in Western Skyrim involving Harrowstorms. Yet figuring that out was still the big focus of the first part of the Chapter questline because the writers had to establish that for brand new players, no matter that it was repetitious for players who'd already done the story's earlier content.

If the writers hadn't played the "apparently stupid ruler willfully ignores the bad guys so you have to get evidence to prove what you already know" plot card, they might have had more time to flesh out the story of Western Skyrim instead of spending a good chunk of it (re)establishing info they already covered in Q1 and the Greymoor Prologue.

That's not to say that Markarth didn't have its issues. Markarth also features an apparently dumb ruler siding with the bad guys even though Bad Guy #1 lays out his evil plot...which my character, inexplicably, has no dialogue options to share with anyone else even though the info should have changed our plan of attack. I'm sorry, but when I as a player figure out the main goal of the villain from single dialogue tree, I should be able to tell my allies about what he said.

Spoiler-heavy Griping about Markarth's plot ahead:

In the first main story quest, the player learns that Ard Caddach has brought the clans to Markarth on the say of the Grey Host for peace. We also see Lady Belain and Rada al-Saran talking. Belain says they want Markarth filled up with Reachmen like a larder, and if you tell him about Verandis, Rada will tell you that he's planning on sacrificing a bunch of mortals in the Reach. Hmm...I wonder what the plan is?

Haha, no, its blinding obvious. The Grey Host wants the Reachmen in Markaeth so they can sacrifice them.

Do we have the option to tell Ard Caddach this?
No.
Can we tell our witch ally, Arana, so she knows not to walk into the trap?
No.
How about Verandis Ravenwatch who's our vampire ally trying to help us stop whatever mysterious plan Rada has?
Haha. No.

The Vestige, inexplicably, plays those cards close to their chest despite knowing that Belair and Rada want the Reachmen in Markarth so they can sacrifice them.

It gets worse. After the Ghostface Clan dies and the Dark Heart is stirring, our witch ally Arana points out that a greater sacrifice will be needed if Belair wants to waken the Dark Heart fully.

This is your moment, Vestige! Say something!

Haha, nope. The Vestige, despite having the evil plan of Belain and Rada literally spelled out for them, has no clue that Markarth is being set up as the sacrifice needed to power the Dark Heart.

We don't "figure it out" until Rada and Belain actually activate the thing and Verandis panics, since he's finally managed to figure out that Markarth is the sacrifice, without any input from us. Now its time to rush off and stop them.

Ugh, Vestige. You could've saved a lot of lives just by telling Ard Caddach that vampires were going to sacrifice everyone in Markarth at the beginning of the questline.

And writers? If you are going to spell out the villain's plan in the first questline, let us act on it! Let us say something! Don't just throw us on the plot railroad and forget that we're keeping crucial information to ourselves!

craybest

Inhuman003 wrote: »

I think it's not about the chapter story it is more about the size of the zone and also not having College of Winterhold.

but having it be a bigger yearly expac released all at once, doesn't mean we would get more content than what we got in 1 year this way. still no winterhold.

exeeter702

wolfbone wrote: »

year long story chapters ruin the chapters as they end up just being a glorified over priced dlc that ends up just being the start and not an actual story. like greymoor, there was no actual story to it. at least with elsweyr, it had a story and not some build up.

I dont want to be that guy, but chapters were always just juiced up DLCs.

exeeter702

craybest wrote: »

isn't that how most MMOs do it though? the big expac releases and then the actual story finishes in future update and patches?
chapters do have their own ending in any way. even if the story is continued later on in the DLC

Yes but ESO chapters are in no way shape or form comparable to traditional expansions like you see in wow or 14 which are not annually released.

deleted220717-003304

They had such a good model for a while, the bigger region with its own story and the smaller region with its own story. It's somewhat sad to think back of how good the Daedric trilogy and Murkmire were. When the stories were allowed to have a beginning, middle and end.
With the year-long plots, it just means what should be the big exciting main story in summer gets interrupted for half a year, and both times so far it's been much weaker for it. At least for me, if I have to wait that long, I lose interest in both parts. (I barely count the dungeons in there.) And with Greymoor in particular, the most interesting parts were the notes and letters lying around and a few overheard snippets of conversation. None of which was allowed to lead anywhere because Markarth was coming up. I do really wish they'd reconsider the model.

robertthebard

VaranisArano wrote: »

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

How can you say that Greymoor don't have a story..

Its pacing was badly messed up due to the need to start advertising The Dark Heart of Skyrim in Q1 but also sell the story to brand new players. If you did the Harrowstorm dungeons or the prologue quest, you already knew that the Icereach Coven was in league with the vampires and Grey Host to do nasty stuff in Western Skyrim involving Harrowstorms. Yet figuring that out was still the big focus of the first part of the Chapter questline because the writers had to establish that for brand new players, no matter that it was repetitious for players who'd already done the story's earlier content.

If the writers hadn't played the "apparently stupid ruler willfully ignores the bad guys so you have to get evidence to prove what you already know" plot card, they might have had more time to flesh out the story of Western Skyrim instead of spending a good chunk of it (re)establishing info they already covered in Q1 and the Greymoor Prologue.

That's not to say that Markarth didn't have its issues. Markarth also features an apparently dumb ruler siding with the bad guys even though Bad Guy #1 lays out his evil plot...which my character, inexplicably, has no dialogue options to share with anyone else even though the info should have changed our plan of attack. I'm sorry, but when I as a player figure out the main goal of the villain from single dialogue tree, I should be able to tell my allies about what he said.

Spoiler-heavy Griping about Markarth's plot ahead:

In the first main story quest, the player learns that Ard Caddach has brought the clans to Markarth on the say of the Grey Host for peace. We also see Lady Belain and Rada al-Saran talking. Belain says they want Markarth filled up with Reachmen like a larder, and if you tell him about Verandis, Rada will tell you that he's planning on sacrificing a bunch of mortals in the Reach. Hmm...I wonder what the plan is?

Haha, no, its blinding obvious. The Grey Host wants the Reachmen in Markaeth so they can sacrifice them.

Do we have the option to tell Ard Caddach this?
No.
Can we tell our witch ally, Arana, so she knows not to walk into the trap?
No.
How about Verandis Ravenwatch who's our vampire ally trying to help us stop whatever mysterious plan Rada has?
Haha. No.

The Vestige, inexplicably, plays those cards close to their chest despite knowing that Belair and Rada want the Reachmen in Markarth so they can sacrifice them.

It gets worse. After the Ghostface Clan dies and the Dark Heart is stirring, our witch ally Arana points out that a greater sacrifice will be needed if Belair wants to waken the Dark Heart fully.

This is your moment, Vestige! Say something!

Haha, nope. The Vestige, despite having the evil plan of Belain and Rada literally spelled out for them, has no clue that Markarth is being set up as the sacrifice needed to power the Dark Heart.

We don't "figure it out" until Rada and Belain actually activate the thing and Verandis panics, since he's finally managed to figure out that Markarth is the sacrifice, without any input from us. Now its time to rush off and stop them.

Ugh, Vestige. You could've saved a lot of lives just by telling Ard Caddach that vampires were going to sacrifice everyone in Markarth at the beginning of the questline.

And writers? If you are going to spell out the villain's plan in the first questline, let us act on it! Let us say something! Don't just throw us on the plot railroad and forget that we're keeping crucial information to ourselves!

I sincerely hope that no developer ever does that. I would have to quit 95% of the games I play in the first hour or so, I'd have no reason to read to the end of a novel, or watch an entire movie, or series of movies. Because I, as a player, have the plot figured out relatively quickly, and being able to lay it out in the first x minutes/hours of a story means all the rest of the time and money spent on it was wasted.

Lugaldu

In general, I like the idea of a year-long theme, but I also think that the story shouldn't feel so artificially stretched (like last year). It would be better if there were two really independent stories with two finals throughout the year.

Ghanima_Atreides

robertthebard wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

How can you say that Greymoor don't have a story..

Its pacing was badly messed up due to the need to start advertising The Dark Heart of Skyrim in Q1 but also sell the story to brand new players. If you did the Harrowstorm dungeons or the prologue quest, you already knew that the Icereach Coven was in league with the vampires and Grey Host to do nasty stuff in Western Skyrim involving Harrowstorms. Yet figuring that out was still the big focus of the first part of the Chapter questline because the writers had to establish that for brand new players, no matter that it was repetitious for players who'd already done the story's earlier content.

If the writers hadn't played the "apparently stupid ruler willfully ignores the bad guys so you have to get evidence to prove what you already know" plot card, they might have had more time to flesh out the story of Western Skyrim instead of spending a good chunk of it (re)establishing info they already covered in Q1 and the Greymoor Prologue.

That's not to say that Markarth didn't have its issues. Markarth also features an apparently dumb ruler siding with the bad guys even though Bad Guy #1 lays out his evil plot...which my character, inexplicably, has no dialogue options to share with anyone else even though the info should have changed our plan of attack. I'm sorry, but when I as a player figure out the main goal of the villain from single dialogue tree, I should be able to tell my allies about what he said.

Spoiler-heavy Griping about Markarth's plot ahead:

In the first main story quest, the player learns that Ard Caddach has brought the clans to Markarth on the say of the Grey Host for peace. We also see Lady Belain and Rada al-Saran talking. Belain says they want Markarth filled up with Reachmen like a larder, and if you tell him about Verandis, Rada will tell you that he's planning on sacrificing a bunch of mortals in the Reach. Hmm...I wonder what the plan is?

Haha, no, its blinding obvious. The Grey Host wants the Reachmen in Markaeth so they can sacrifice them.

Do we have the option to tell Ard Caddach this?
No.
Can we tell our witch ally, Arana, so she knows not to walk into the trap?
No.
How about Verandis Ravenwatch who's our vampire ally trying to help us stop whatever mysterious plan Rada has?
Haha. No.

The Vestige, inexplicably, plays those cards close to their chest despite knowing that Belair and Rada want the Reachmen in Markarth so they can sacrifice them.

It gets worse. After the Ghostface Clan dies and the Dark Heart is stirring, our witch ally Arana points out that a greater sacrifice will be needed if Belair wants to waken the Dark Heart fully.

This is your moment, Vestige! Say something!

Haha, nope. The Vestige, despite having the evil plan of Belain and Rada literally spelled out for them, has no clue that Markarth is being set up as the sacrifice needed to power the Dark Heart.

We don't "figure it out" until Rada and Belain actually activate the thing and Verandis panics, since he's finally managed to figure out that Markarth is the sacrifice, without any input from us. Now its time to rush off and stop them.

Ugh, Vestige. You could've saved a lot of lives just by telling Ard Caddach that vampires were going to sacrifice everyone in Markarth at the beginning of the questline.

And writers? If you are going to spell out the villain's plan in the first questline, let us act on it! Let us say something! Don't just throw us on the plot railroad and forget that we're keeping crucial information to ourselves!

I sincerely hope that no developer ever does that. I would have to quit 95% of the games I play in the first hour or so, I'd have no reason to read to the end of a novel, or watch an entire movie, or series of movies. Because I, as a player, have the plot figured out relatively quickly, and being able to lay it out in the first x minutes/hours of a story means all the rest of the time and money spent on it was wasted.

I think the real problem here is that the "twists" are so blindingly obvious, the fact that nobody (including the player) seems to figure it out until the last moment feels unnatural and forced, and makes those characters (again, player included) come across as complete morons. If we're not meant to feel like we're keeping quiet for no reason at all when the world is about to end or are too dumb to figure out the plan explicitly laid out before us by the bad guys, then the stories need to be less predictable.

Seraphayel

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

wolfbone wrote: »

year long story chapters ruin the chapters as they end up just being a glorified over priced dlc that ends up just being the start and not an actual story. like greymoor, there was no actual story to it. at least with elsweyr, it had a story and not some build up.

Or it just shows that the gaming experience would be better served just having one big expansion every year instead of spreading the content out in trickles. But they want people to stick around instead of just showing up when expansions drop and finishing content in two months.

But then they would have to deliver at least one additional free content patch per year like every other MMORPG. Problem: they can’t monetize that.

So it’s easier to sell 2x2 dungeons per year as content whereas every other MMORPG hands you them in their expansion (aka Chapter) or for free in normal content patches.

The yearly cadence and the Chapter / DLC thing they do is pretty scammy. It wasn’t really that bad with Morrowind and Summerset in 2017 and 2018 when they delivered content and other features in those years, but it became worse with Elsweyr and even worse with Greymoor when they drastically reduced the amount of content / features per money and still kept the same price.

I bet the upcoming Chapter won’t be any different except they officially stated already it will have EVEN LESS features than Greymoor (which is barely possible).

rrimöykk

^

True, Greymoor was so not worth its' price. I do hope next chapter is.

exeeter702

Did they really say that?.... ffs. Its sad enough that most of the chapters are built upon already existing assets when putting together the zones. I have lost interest in the update structure of this game with the last two chapters tbh. Morrowind was cool because no one quite knew what to expect in terms of scale. We learned relatively quickly that a chapter was just essentially updates of the scale of orsinium and IC give or take a class and a new skill line. After summerset, I exactly what to expect and was still disappointed.

If the oblivion update is even less (something something covid) and doesnt bring a significant change the formula for ESO, and is simply a slightly more shallow version of the *** formula for the last 3 chapters, then I'm definitely out.

robertthebard

Ghanima_Atreides wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

How can you say that Greymoor don't have a story..

Its pacing was badly messed up due to the need to start advertising The Dark Heart of Skyrim in Q1 but also sell the story to brand new players. If you did the Harrowstorm dungeons or the prologue quest, you already knew that the Icereach Coven was in league with the vampires and Grey Host to do nasty stuff in Western Skyrim involving Harrowstorms. Yet figuring that out was still the big focus of the first part of the Chapter questline because the writers had to establish that for brand new players, no matter that it was repetitious for players who'd already done the story's earlier content.

If the writers hadn't played the "apparently stupid ruler willfully ignores the bad guys so you have to get evidence to prove what you already know" plot card, they might have had more time to flesh out the story of Western Skyrim instead of spending a good chunk of it (re)establishing info they already covered in Q1 and the Greymoor Prologue.

That's not to say that Markarth didn't have its issues. Markarth also features an apparently dumb ruler siding with the bad guys even though Bad Guy #1 lays out his evil plot...which my character, inexplicably, has no dialogue options to share with anyone else even though the info should have changed our plan of attack. I'm sorry, but when I as a player figure out the main goal of the villain from single dialogue tree, I should be able to tell my allies about what he said.

Spoiler-heavy Griping about Markarth's plot ahead:

In the first main story quest, the player learns that Ard Caddach has brought the clans to Markarth on the say of the Grey Host for peace. We also see Lady Belain and Rada al-Saran talking. Belain says they want Markarth filled up with Reachmen like a larder, and if you tell him about Verandis, Rada will tell you that he's planning on sacrificing a bunch of mortals in the Reach. Hmm...I wonder what the plan is?

Haha, no, its blinding obvious. The Grey Host wants the Reachmen in Markaeth so they can sacrifice them.

Do we have the option to tell Ard Caddach this?
No.
Can we tell our witch ally, Arana, so she knows not to walk into the trap?
No.
How about Verandis Ravenwatch who's our vampire ally trying to help us stop whatever mysterious plan Rada has?
Haha. No.

The Vestige, inexplicably, plays those cards close to their chest despite knowing that Belair and Rada want the Reachmen in Markarth so they can sacrifice them.

It gets worse. After the Ghostface Clan dies and the Dark Heart is stirring, our witch ally Arana points out that a greater sacrifice will be needed if Belair wants to waken the Dark Heart fully.

This is your moment, Vestige! Say something!

Haha, nope. The Vestige, despite having the evil plan of Belain and Rada literally spelled out for them, has no clue that Markarth is being set up as the sacrifice needed to power the Dark Heart.

We don't "figure it out" until Rada and Belain actually activate the thing and Verandis panics, since he's finally managed to figure out that Markarth is the sacrifice, without any input from us. Now its time to rush off and stop them.

Ugh, Vestige. You could've saved a lot of lives just by telling Ard Caddach that vampires were going to sacrifice everyone in Markarth at the beginning of the questline.

And writers? If you are going to spell out the villain's plan in the first questline, let us act on it! Let us say something! Don't just throw us on the plot railroad and forget that we're keeping crucial information to ourselves!

I sincerely hope that no developer ever does that. I would have to quit 95% of the games I play in the first hour or so, I'd have no reason to read to the end of a novel, or watch an entire movie, or series of movies. Because I, as a player, have the plot figured out relatively quickly, and being able to lay it out in the first x minutes/hours of a story means all the rest of the time and money spent on it was wasted.

I think the real problem here is that the "twists" are so blindingly obvious, the fact that nobody (including the player) seems to figure it out until the last moment feels unnatural and forced, and makes those characters (again, player included) come across as complete morons. If we're not meant to feel like we're keeping quiet for no reason at all when the world is about to end or are too dumb to figure out the plan explicitly laid out before us by the bad guys, then the stories need to be less predictable.

This is going to feel like a totally off the wall example, but trust me, it'll become obvious:

I played the EA for Baldur's Gate 3, and people were complaining about dice rolls for conversation and skill checks. The reason they cited were games like TES/FO series, where the player determined whether or not you got that lock, or Intimidate/Persuade check, instead of dice. Character skill (knowledge for this dialog) vs player skill/knowledge.

We, as players, can figure a lot of stuff out ahead of time, that our character may not know. This isn't to say that there are times where we run into dialog that completely ignores what we, as players have already done on a particular character, it does happen. We can do this because some stories are rather cliche, or at least somewhat common, or predictable, given our experience as gamers overall.

VaranisArano

robertthebard wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

How can you say that Greymoor don't have a story..

Its pacing was badly messed up due to the need to start advertising The Dark Heart of Skyrim in Q1 but also sell the story to brand new players. If you did the Harrowstorm dungeons or the prologue quest, you already knew that the Icereach Coven was in league with the vampires and Grey Host to do nasty stuff in Western Skyrim involving Harrowstorms. Yet figuring that out was still the big focus of the first part of the Chapter questline because the writers had to establish that for brand new players, no matter that it was repetitious for players who'd already done the story's earlier content.

If the writers hadn't played the "apparently stupid ruler willfully ignores the bad guys so you have to get evidence to prove what you already know" plot card, they might have had more time to flesh out the story of Western Skyrim instead of spending a good chunk of it (re)establishing info they already covered in Q1 and the Greymoor Prologue.

That's not to say that Markarth didn't have its issues. Markarth also features an apparently dumb ruler siding with the bad guys even though Bad Guy #1 lays out his evil plot...which my character, inexplicably, has no dialogue options to share with anyone else even though the info should have changed our plan of attack. I'm sorry, but when I as a player figure out the main goal of the villain from single dialogue tree, I should be able to tell my allies about what he said.

Spoiler-heavy Griping about Markarth's plot ahead:

In the first main story quest, the player learns that Ard Caddach has brought the clans to Markarth on the say of the Grey Host for peace. We also see Lady Belain and Rada al-Saran talking. Belain says they want Markarth filled up with Reachmen like a larder, and if you tell him about Verandis, Rada will tell you that he's planning on sacrificing a bunch of mortals in the Reach. Hmm...I wonder what the plan is?

Haha, no, its blinding obvious. The Grey Host wants the Reachmen in Markaeth so they can sacrifice them.

Do we have the option to tell Ard Caddach this?
No.
Can we tell our witch ally, Arana, so she knows not to walk into the trap?
No.
How about Verandis Ravenwatch who's our vampire ally trying to help us stop whatever mysterious plan Rada has?
Haha. No.

The Vestige, inexplicably, plays those cards close to their chest despite knowing that Belair and Rada want the Reachmen in Markarth so they can sacrifice them.

It gets worse. After the Ghostface Clan dies and the Dark Heart is stirring, our witch ally Arana points out that a greater sacrifice will be needed if Belair wants to waken the Dark Heart fully.

This is your moment, Vestige! Say something!

Haha, nope. The Vestige, despite having the evil plan of Belain and Rada literally spelled out for them, has no clue that Markarth is being set up as the sacrifice needed to power the Dark Heart.

We don't "figure it out" until Rada and Belain actually activate the thing and Verandis panics, since he's finally managed to figure out that Markarth is the sacrifice, without any input from us. Now its time to rush off and stop them.

Ugh, Vestige. You could've saved a lot of lives just by telling Ard Caddach that vampires were going to sacrifice everyone in Markarth at the beginning of the questline.

And writers? If you are going to spell out the villain's plan in the first questline, let us act on it! Let us say something! Don't just throw us on the plot railroad and forget that we're keeping crucial information to ourselves!

I sincerely hope that no developer ever does that. I would have to quit 95% of the games I play in the first hour or so, I'd have no reason to read to the end of a novel, or watch an entire movie, or series of movies. Because I, as a player, have the plot figured out relatively quickly, and being able to lay it out in the first x minutes/hours of a story means all the rest of the time and money spent on it was wasted.

Yeah, needless to say, if I weren't playing Markarth during the free ESO+ trial, I would have been pretty disappointed.

There were parts I liked. It was great to finally see the Reachmen and Reach Culture expanded into something that wasn't the "generic always chaotic evil faction" way they were presented in the base game zones and Orsinium. The final fight against Evil Boss #2 was really well done, IMO, and far beyond what I was expecting from an overland content quest.

And if you're a player who likes Verandis Ravenwatch or vampires, there's plenty of interesting lore and interactions to be had. I don't particularly like him, but I suspect players who liked him in Rivenspire will enjoy helping him and Gwendis out.

As for whether it'd be worth paying money for? Eh, maybe I'll pick it up on discount.

Ghanima_Atreides

robertthebard wrote: »

Ghanima_Atreides wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

How can you say that Greymoor don't have a story..

Its pacing was badly messed up due to the need to start advertising The Dark Heart of Skyrim in Q1 but also sell the story to brand new players. If you did the Harrowstorm dungeons or the prologue quest, you already knew that the Icereach Coven was in league with the vampires and Grey Host to do nasty stuff in Western Skyrim involving Harrowstorms. Yet figuring that out was still the big focus of the first part of the Chapter questline because the writers had to establish that for brand new players, no matter that it was repetitious for players who'd already done the story's earlier content.

If the writers hadn't played the "apparently stupid ruler willfully ignores the bad guys so you have to get evidence to prove what you already know" plot card, they might have had more time to flesh out the story of Western Skyrim instead of spending a good chunk of it (re)establishing info they already covered in Q1 and the Greymoor Prologue.

That's not to say that Markarth didn't have its issues. Markarth also features an apparently dumb ruler siding with the bad guys even though Bad Guy #1 lays out his evil plot...which my character, inexplicably, has no dialogue options to share with anyone else even though the info should have changed our plan of attack. I'm sorry, but when I as a player figure out the main goal of the villain from single dialogue tree, I should be able to tell my allies about what he said.

Spoiler-heavy Griping about Markarth's plot ahead:

In the first main story quest, the player learns that Ard Caddach has brought the clans to Markarth on the say of the Grey Host for peace. We also see Lady Belain and Rada al-Saran talking. Belain says they want Markarth filled up with Reachmen like a larder, and if you tell him about Verandis, Rada will tell you that he's planning on sacrificing a bunch of mortals in the Reach. Hmm...I wonder what the plan is?

Haha, no, its blinding obvious. The Grey Host wants the Reachmen in Markaeth so they can sacrifice them.

Do we have the option to tell Ard Caddach this?
No.
Can we tell our witch ally, Arana, so she knows not to walk into the trap?
No.
How about Verandis Ravenwatch who's our vampire ally trying to help us stop whatever mysterious plan Rada has?
Haha. No.

The Vestige, inexplicably, plays those cards close to their chest despite knowing that Belair and Rada want the Reachmen in Markarth so they can sacrifice them.

It gets worse. After the Ghostface Clan dies and the Dark Heart is stirring, our witch ally Arana points out that a greater sacrifice will be needed if Belair wants to waken the Dark Heart fully.

This is your moment, Vestige! Say something!

Haha, nope. The Vestige, despite having the evil plan of Belain and Rada literally spelled out for them, has no clue that Markarth is being set up as the sacrifice needed to power the Dark Heart.

We don't "figure it out" until Rada and Belain actually activate the thing and Verandis panics, since he's finally managed to figure out that Markarth is the sacrifice, without any input from us. Now its time to rush off and stop them.

Ugh, Vestige. You could've saved a lot of lives just by telling Ard Caddach that vampires were going to sacrifice everyone in Markarth at the beginning of the questline.

And writers? If you are going to spell out the villain's plan in the first questline, let us act on it! Let us say something! Don't just throw us on the plot railroad and forget that we're keeping crucial information to ourselves!

I sincerely hope that no developer ever does that. I would have to quit 95% of the games I play in the first hour or so, I'd have no reason to read to the end of a novel, or watch an entire movie, or series of movies. Because I, as a player, have the plot figured out relatively quickly, and being able to lay it out in the first x minutes/hours of a story means all the rest of the time and money spent on it was wasted.

I think the real problem here is that the "twists" are so blindingly obvious, the fact that nobody (including the player) seems to figure it out until the last moment feels unnatural and forced, and makes those characters (again, player included) come across as complete morons. If we're not meant to feel like we're keeping quiet for no reason at all when the world is about to end or are too dumb to figure out the plan explicitly laid out before us by the bad guys, then the stories need to be less predictable.

This is going to feel like a totally off the wall example, but trust me, it'll become obvious:

I played the EA for Baldur's Gate 3, and people were complaining about dice rolls for conversation and skill checks. The reason they cited were games like TES/FO series, where the player determined whether or not you got that lock, or Intimidate/Persuade check, instead of dice. Character skill (knowledge for this dialog) vs player skill/knowledge.

We, as players, can figure a lot of stuff out ahead of time, that our character may not know. This isn't to say that there are times where we run into dialog that completely ignores what we, as players have already done on a particular character, it does happen. We can do this because some stories are rather cliche, or at least somewhat common, or predictable, given our experience as gamers overall.

I get that, and I am not saying that I want dice rolls and skill checks for conversations in ESO, but that's missing the point that VaranisArano and I were trying to make: we ARE given the information in the game, that is our characters are given this information, which we are then forced to ignore/withhold until a certain point in the game. Sometimes this is literal - the enforced exposition designed for new players, and which is PERFECTLY FINE to have, but which should be skippable in the case of players who had already uncovered that information, and if the story is built in such a way that you are FORCED to uncover the same information over and over again (with the flimsiest excuse, or at times not even that) then it's not very well-written.

And yes, to some degree stories are going to be somewhat predictable and we, as players, may well guess ahead but our characters shouldn't practically be hit over the head with an obvious clue which they cannot share/talk about because they haven't reached the right point in the questline to do so. More simply: maybe avoid having the villains boast about their Super Secret Evil Plan for all to hear, then pretend nobody heard.

Aigym_Hlervu

VaranisArano wrote: »

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

How can you say that Greymoor don't have a story..

Its pacing was badly messed up due to the need to start advertising The Dark Heart of Skyrim in Q1 but also sell the story to brand new players. If you did the Harrowstorm dungeons or the prologue quest, you already knew that the Icereach Coven was in league with the vampires and Grey Host to do nasty stuff in Western Skyrim involving Harrowstorms. Yet figuring that out was still the big focus of the first part of the Chapter questline because the writers had to establish that for brand new players, no matter that it was repetitious for players who'd already done the story's earlier content.

If the writers hadn't played the "apparently stupid ruler willfully ignores the bad guys so you have to get evidence to prove what you already know" plot card, they might have had more time to flesh out the story of Western Skyrim instead of spending a good chunk of it (re)establishing info they already covered in Q1 and the Greymoor Prologue.

That's not to say that Markarth didn't have its issues. Markarth also features an apparently dumb ruler siding with the bad guys even though Bad Guy #1 lays out his evil plot...which my character, inexplicably, has no dialogue options to share with anyone else even though the info should have changed our plan of attack. I'm sorry, but when I as a player figure out the main goal of the villain from single dialogue tree, I should be able to tell my allies about what he said.

Spoiler-heavy Griping about Markarth's plot ahead:

In the first main story quest, the player learns that Ard Caddach has brought the clans to Markarth on the say of the Grey Host for peace. We also see Lady Belain and Rada al-Saran talking. Belain says they want Markarth filled up with Reachmen like a larder, and if you tell him about Verandis, Rada will tell you that he's planning on sacrificing a bunch of mortals in the Reach. Hmm...I wonder what the plan is?

Haha, no, its blinding obvious. The Grey Host wants the Reachmen in Markaeth so they can sacrifice them.

Do we have the option to tell Ard Caddach this?
No.
Can we tell our witch ally, Arana, so she knows not to walk into the trap?
No.
How about Verandis Ravenwatch who's our vampire ally trying to help us stop whatever mysterious plan Rada has?
Haha. No.

The Vestige, inexplicably, plays those cards close to their chest despite knowing that Belair and Rada want the Reachmen in Markarth so they can sacrifice them.

It gets worse. After the Ghostface Clan dies and the Dark Heart is stirring, our witch ally Arana points out that a greater sacrifice will be needed if Belair wants to waken the Dark Heart fully.

This is your moment, Vestige! Say something!

Haha, nope. The Vestige, despite having the evil plan of Belain and Rada literally spelled out for them, has no clue that Markarth is being set up as the sacrifice needed to power the Dark Heart.

We don't "figure it out" until Rada and Belain actually activate the thing and Verandis panics, since he's finally managed to figure out that Markarth is the sacrifice, without any input from us. Now its time to rush off and stop them.

Ugh, Vestige. You could've saved a lot of lives just by telling Ard Caddach that vampires were going to sacrifice everyone in Markarth at the beginning of the questline.

And writers? If you are going to spell out the villain's plan in the first questline, let us act on it! Let us say something! Don't just throw us on the plot railroad and forget that we're keeping crucial information to ourselves!

Awesome, Varanis. I can only say that my biggest disapointment was Rada al-Saran himself. Until the very end I was hoping that the ancient Yokudan Shehai wielding ansei who fought a goddess for three days and three nights with neither of them gaining the upper hand in that battle would somehow escape or avoid fighting us, because the entire season he showed himself to be the smartest enemy of all in the entire game, carefully avoiding all the moments of possible confrontation with us untill the very end. I killed Belain and was absolutely sure the story line was over, I was expecting that we won't hear of Rada until the next DLC or even TES VI where we would need to perform numerous things like getting some specific artifact or a weapon like the Chim-el Adabal we used to defeat Molag Bal to kill an adversary of such a scale. But no. By the end of the Chapter al-Saran personally informed us of his location, his plans and other such things. Why?!.. I just can't believe it was all because he wanted to turn Verandis to his side. It was so stupid. Nonetheless, in spite of such a sudden stupidity I was expecting an almost impossible eternal battle between a demi-god and an immortal, but we just slaughtered him like a pig. It was unbelievable. Incredible.

Moreover, I can't understand that love of his expressed towards those vampires and werewolves - they were defeated once in a fair fight, wasn't it obvious that launching a similar war using the same plan is a lunacy? And for what goal? Why didn't he just decide to live his own eternal life and try to make it pleasant, why did he need that Host, Tamriel, Nirn?.. What for? He could become a king of some city-state or live a calm eternal life, if it is ever applicable to the undead bloodsuckers. I could have understood it, if all the mess he started was about, say, rescueing someone very dear to him. I.e. if his goal was understandable and credible with only the methods wrong. I'd even help him myself to punish Bal and Mannimarco once more, so that in the end of the day everyone would be alive and happy. But how can be an entire host of bloodsuckers be that dear to him he was ready to risk his life for them and kill so many people around? A pure idiot. A smart, intelligent idiot. And, of course, that is not his fault.

adriant1978

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

Moreover, I can't understand that love of his expressed towards those vampires and werewolves - they were defeated once in a fair fight, wasn't it obvious that launching a similar war using the same plan is a lunacy? And for what goal? Why didn't he just decide to live his own eternal life and try to make it pleasant, why did he need that Host, Tamriel, Nirn?.. What for?

They were his friends and comrades. Evil people are allowed to have friends too, you know.

This is actually something I liked about this story: a villain who seemed more human, despite being a vampire, rather than just a generic cackling world conqueror.

Nirntrotter

Completely agree, not just because it makes the chapter feel/look like a prologue, but also because it completely kills off any chance of exploring something else the whole year. I really, really liked TG/DB/Wrothgar/Murkmire etc. and miss this format dearly.

adriant1978

The year long story also means that parts of that story are locked behind group dungeons, which isn't good for solo players. But nobody ever thinks of the solo players.

Starlock

Ghanima_Atreides wrote: »

I get that, and I am not saying that I want dice rolls and skill checks for conversations in ESO, but that's missing the point that VaranisArano and I were trying to make: we ARE given the information in the game, that is our characters are given this information, which we are then forced to ignore/withhold until a certain point in the game. Sometimes this is literal - the enforced exposition designed for new players, and which is PERFECTLY FINE to have, but which should be skippable in the case of players who had already uncovered that information, and if the story is built in such a way that you are FORCED to uncover the same information over and over again (with the flimsiest excuse, or at times not even that) then it's not very well-written.

And yes, to some degree stories are going to be somewhat predictable and we, as players, may well guess ahead but our characters shouldn't practically be hit over the head with an obvious clue which they cannot share/talk about because they haven't reached the right point in the questline to do so. More simply: maybe avoid having the villains boast about their Super Secret Evil Plan for all to hear, then pretend nobody heard.

What they need to make more use of in moments like this are branching dialogue choices (the red text options). It has a precedent in the game already, and could even take this game in a direction with stronger RPG elements. Depending on how you responded to a plot-critical moment, the way the rest of the story went could change. You know, real choice and consequence RPG type stuff?

Aigym_Hlervu

adriant1978 wrote: »

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

Moreover, I can't understand that love of his expressed towards those vampires and werewolves - they were defeated once in a fair fight, wasn't it obvious that launching a similar war using the same plan is a lunacy? And for what goal? Why didn't he just decide to live his own eternal life and try to make it pleasant, why did he need that Host, Tamriel, Nirn?.. What for?

They were his friends and comrades. Evil people are allowed to have friends too, you know.

This is actually something I liked about this story: a villain who seemed more human, despite being a vampire, rather than just a generic cackling world conqueror.

That's point, Adriant!.. His actions had nothing common with a normal man's behaviour. You just cast off those fictious moments with magic, vampires, Molag Bal, and etc., imagine such a situation IRL when, say, some Axis high ranking guy who survived WW II, murders numerous people and risks greatly his life just because he feels a deep feeling of friendship and wants to free his fellow soldiers and war criminals. Sheer nonsense.

VaranisArano

Ghanima_Atreides wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

How can you say that Greymoor don't have a story..

Its pacing was badly messed up due to the need to start advertising The Dark Heart of Skyrim in Q1 but also sell the story to brand new players. If you did the Harrowstorm dungeons or the prologue quest, you already knew that the Icereach Coven was in league with the vampires and Grey Host to do nasty stuff in Western Skyrim involving Harrowstorms. Yet figuring that out was still the big focus of the first part of the Chapter questline because the writers had to establish that for brand new players, no matter that it was repetitious for players who'd already done the story's earlier content.

If the writers hadn't played the "apparently stupid ruler willfully ignores the bad guys so you have to get evidence to prove what you already know" plot card, they might have had more time to flesh out the story of Western Skyrim instead of spending a good chunk of it (re)establishing info they already covered in Q1 and the Greymoor Prologue.

That's not to say that Markarth didn't have its issues. Markarth also features an apparently dumb ruler siding with the bad guys even though Bad Guy #1 lays out his evil plot...which my character, inexplicably, has no dialogue options to share with anyone else even though the info should have changed our plan of attack. I'm sorry, but when I as a player figure out the main goal of the villain from single dialogue tree, I should be able to tell my allies about what he said.

Spoiler-heavy Griping about Markarth's plot ahead:

In the first main story quest, the player learns that Ard Caddach has brought the clans to Markarth on the say of the Grey Host for peace. We also see Lady Belain and Rada al-Saran talking. Belain says they want Markarth filled up with Reachmen like a larder, and if you tell him about Verandis, Rada will tell you that he's planning on sacrificing a bunch of mortals in the Reach. Hmm...I wonder what the plan is?

Haha, no, its blinding obvious. The Grey Host wants the Reachmen in Markaeth so they can sacrifice them.

Do we have the option to tell Ard Caddach this?
No.
Can we tell our witch ally, Arana, so she knows not to walk into the trap?
No.
How about Verandis Ravenwatch who's our vampire ally trying to help us stop whatever mysterious plan Rada has?
Haha. No.

The Vestige, inexplicably, plays those cards close to their chest despite knowing that Belair and Rada want the Reachmen in Markarth so they can sacrifice them.

It gets worse. After the Ghostface Clan dies and the Dark Heart is stirring, our witch ally Arana points out that a greater sacrifice will be needed if Belair wants to waken the Dark Heart fully.

This is your moment, Vestige! Say something!

Haha, nope. The Vestige, despite having the evil plan of Belain and Rada literally spelled out for them, has no clue that Markarth is being set up as the sacrifice needed to power the Dark Heart.

We don't "figure it out" until Rada and Belain actually activate the thing and Verandis panics, since he's finally managed to figure out that Markarth is the sacrifice, without any input from us. Now its time to rush off and stop them.

Ugh, Vestige. You could've saved a lot of lives just by telling Ard Caddach that vampires were going to sacrifice everyone in Markarth at the beginning of the questline.

And writers? If you are going to spell out the villain's plan in the first questline, let us act on it! Let us say something! Don't just throw us on the plot railroad and forget that we're keeping crucial information to ourselves!

I sincerely hope that no developer ever does that. I would have to quit 95% of the games I play in the first hour or so, I'd have no reason to read to the end of a novel, or watch an entire movie, or series of movies. Because I, as a player, have the plot figured out relatively quickly, and being able to lay it out in the first x minutes/hours of a story means all the rest of the time and money spent on it was wasted.

I think the real problem here is that the "twists" are so blindingly obvious, the fact that nobody (including the player) seems to figure it out until the last moment feels unnatural and forced, and makes those characters (again, player included) come across as complete morons. If we're not meant to feel like we're keeping quiet for no reason at all when the world is about to end or are too dumb to figure out the plan explicitly laid out before us by the bad guys, then the stories need to be less predictable.

Yep. In the writers' defense, one part of Markarth's plot is only revealed in the first story quest if you take an optional dialogue choice with the villain. I think players who roleplay that choice differently than I did might miss it entirely. The Vestige's silence on the info gathered in that conversation indicates to me that the writers expected players to refuse the option and to not get that info at all.

Spoiler details:

When the player talks to Rada al-Saran, he offered the choice to answer questions in return for him finding out more about your Vampire ally, Count Verandis. If you agree to the game of 20 questions, he explains that his plan is to use something below the Reach that will cause lots of mortals to die. Since this is right after Belain and him talk about there are lots of mortals in Markarth like they want, it wasn't hard for me to connect the dots.

However, it seems to me that the writers may have expected the player to refuse to play Rada's game or to refuse to sell out their ally, Verandis. If you don't play along, you don't get the info that Rada is planning on killing lots of Reachmen. If you don't know that, then your weaksauce warning to Ard Caddach about Lady Belain being a vampire (which he knew already) and, after the Ghostsong Clan dies, you not immediately realizing that Rada plans to fill the Dark Heart with the dead of Markarth is a little more acceptable. Now, you could still figure it out pretty easily in future quests since Belain and Rada are not particularly subtle, but at least its not the Vestige ignoring that the whole evil plan was basically laid out for them like an easy "connect the dots" drawing.

Awkwardly for the writers, Varanis Arano the Vestige dislikes Verandis and happily sold him out to ask Rada her questions. She had all the pieces - and I as the player was raring to evacuate
Markarth right away. Except that Varanis never told anyone about it. No "yo, Rada monologued his plan to me and maybe the rebels have a point about not forting up in Markarth". No, "Oh, right, I think Rada said something about that in his evil monologue..."

As a player, I felt like I got rewarded for a roleplaying choice with more info, but never got the opportunity to act on that information or even talk it over with my allies.

Even with that in mind, I wish the writers had taken into account that if you offer a legitimate choice, then you have to write for players who took the option you didn't expect. If you give us information that should logically be acted on by us or our allies, we at least need to be able to talk about it, instead of holding our tongue for no good reason. If you don't want us to act on it, then don't give us the info or the illusion of a choice.

Snow_White

VaranisArano wrote: »

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

How can you say that Greymoor don't have a story..

Its pacing was badly messed up due to the need to start advertising The Dark Heart of Skyrim in Q1 but also sell the story to brand new players. If you did the Harrowstorm dungeons or the prologue quest, you already knew that the Icereach Coven was in league with the vampires and Grey Host to do nasty stuff in Western Skyrim involving Harrowstorms. Yet figuring that out was still the big focus of the first part of the Chapter questline because the writers had to establish that for brand new players, no matter that it was repetitious for players who'd already done the story's earlier content.

If the writers hadn't played the "apparently stupid ruler willfully ignores the bad guys so you have to get evidence to prove what you already know" plot card, they might have had more time to flesh out the story of Western Skyrim instead of spending a good chunk of it (re)establishing info they already covered in Q1 and the Greymoor Prologue.

That's not to say that Markarth didn't have its issues. Markarth also features an apparently dumb ruler siding with the bad guys even though Bad Guy #1 lays out his evil plot...which my character, inexplicably, has no dialogue options to share with anyone else even though the info should have changed our plan of attack. I'm sorry, but when I as a player figure out the main goal of the villain from single dialogue tree, I should be able to tell my allies about what he said.

Spoiler-heavy Griping about Markarth's plot ahead:

In the first main story quest, the player learns that Ard Caddach has brought the clans to Markarth on the say of the Grey Host for peace. We also see Lady Belain and Rada al-Saran talking. Belain says they want Markarth filled up with Reachmen like a larder, and if you tell him about Verandis, Rada will tell you that he's planning on sacrificing a bunch of mortals in the Reach. Hmm...I wonder what the plan is?

Haha, no, its blinding obvious. The Grey Host wants the Reachmen in Markaeth so they can sacrifice them.

Do we have the option to tell Ard Caddach this?
No.
Can we tell our witch ally, Arana, so she knows not to walk into the trap?
No.
How about Verandis Ravenwatch who's our vampire ally trying to help us stop whatever mysterious plan Rada has?
Haha. No.

The Vestige, inexplicably, plays those cards close to their chest despite knowing that Belair and Rada want the Reachmen in Markarth so they can sacrifice them.

It gets worse. After the Ghostface Clan dies and the Dark Heart is stirring, our witch ally Arana points out that a greater sacrifice will be needed if Belair wants to waken the Dark Heart fully.

This is your moment, Vestige! Say something!

Haha, nope. The Vestige, despite having the evil plan of Belain and Rada literally spelled out for them, has no clue that Markarth is being set up as the sacrifice needed to power the Dark Heart.

We don't "figure it out" until Rada and Belain actually activate the thing and Verandis panics, since he's finally managed to figure out that Markarth is the sacrifice, without any input from us. Now its time to rush off and stop them.

Ugh, Vestige. You could've saved a lot of lives just by telling Ard Caddach that vampires were going to sacrifice everyone in Markarth at the beginning of the questline.

And writers? If you are going to spell out the villain's plan in the first questline, let us act on it! Let us say something! Don't just throw us on the plot railroad and forget that we're keeping crucial information to ourselves!

Greymoor - everyone in Skyrim is a moron that is unable to help themself. The big plot twist is when the bad guy turns out to be the bad guy.

Markarth - you are a side character, surrounded by morons, and your only purpose is to run around the map so you can watch these morons figure things out for themselves. You are unable to help and must passively observe as they discover what you already knew.