Crimson, the worst idea for a set in the games history?

Fawn4287

I have actually just seen a magsorc running around in the sewers with this set WITHOUT A HEAL ON HIS BAR, he would literally streak into a group of ads and instantly go back to full health that was his healing technique... LOL

The set is so insanely over-performing that you can literally not worry about half the 1/3 of the games mechanics and has just made the IC completely unplayable. That means all the resources one not using it specced in to healing ie,weapon/spell damage, total stats, regen needed for healing etc. are essentially irrelevant when people can use this to disgustingly powerful heal instead. Why have a PTS if you let sets like this make it to live, then let them go multiple patches without a nerf? There couldn’t be a set conceived to work more poorly with this meta of 40k health pools coupled with health based heals.

This game desperately needs much shorter durations between patches and far more PvP balances, this patch is by far the worst in years and the longest Ive seen.

VampireLordLover99

people are sacrificing a damaging/light or medium armor set for a self-heal that requires a bunch of mobs/players to heal or even function properly.


What's the issue? The varying play style that isn't just 'spam heal that is on bar'? I'm not too sure.

Xiomaro

VampireLordLover99 wrote: »

people are sacrificing a damaging/light or medium armor set for a self-heal that requires a bunch of mobs/players to heal or even function properly.


What's the issue? The varying play style that isn't just 'spam heal that is on bar'? I'm not too sure.

If Malacath didn't exist, it definitely would have a trade off. But with the existence of Malacath and the buffs to minor/major intelligence/endurance/fortitude, there isn't really a downside to running heavy armour for most classes.

Fawn4287

VampireLordLover99 wrote: »

people are sacrificing a damaging/light or medium armor set for a self-heal that requires a bunch of mobs/players to heal or even function properly.


What's the issue? The varying play style that isn't just 'spam heal that is on bar'? I'm not too sure.

Its not much in terms of varying when 2/3 people in the IC run it, more like a crutch thats so OP theres no sense in not running it. ‘Spam heal’ costs resources and scales with offensive/max stats or in poorly designed mechanics max health, crimson requires an investment in to neither, whilst still offering a potentially huge amount of healing regardless of all other factors. Its works out when hitting groups of ads as getting a double max tick rally every 10 seconds.

Ellimist_Entreri

This is why we can't have nice things.

ThePedge

Sounds like IC is the problem to me. Without Mobs in a 1v1 you'd have had no issue right?

techyeshic

Its all over Cyrodiil as well. Its the proc sets in general. Everyone's just running high health and try to get their procs off. Not very hard to do, either. Had 4 guys chasing me around doing very little until they all got their procs to line up and you can't do much to them because they can just stack health and armor to worry about

I'd say the vatatrash destro might be the worst though. Easy to trigger off a free spell that also reduces your targets armor for you. Let me know when a stat set gives you 2k damage even in a 5 piece, let alone 2 piece.

Elo106

Crimson is strong on 1vsX or small groups fighting outnumbered if you know how to use it. Its honestly not great if you just mindlessly proc it. Ive seen a ballgroup try to use it, they would charge into a keep all their crimson would go off before they made it into the pugs defending and they died before they could proc it again xD

I can see how it might be bothersome in IC though...

Fawn4287

techyeshic wrote: »

Its all over Cyrodiil as well. Its the proc sets in general. Everyone's just running high health and try to get their procs off. Not very hard to do, either. Had 4 guys chasing me around doing very little until they all got their procs to line up and you can't do much to them because they can just stack health and armor to worry about

I'd say the vatatrash destro might be the worst though. Easy to trigger off a free spell that also reduces your targets armor for you. Let me know when a stat set gives you 2k damage even in a 5 piece, let alone 2 piece.

Sounds like not only a gross over performance of the vat destro but ele drain as a whole, I always found it quite strange that a skill that gives such a strong debuff and huge amount of resources had no cost.

techyeshic

Fawn4287 wrote: »

techyeshic wrote: »

Its all over Cyrodiil as well. Its the proc sets in general. Everyone's just running high health and try to get their procs off. Not very hard to do, either. Had 4 guys chasing me around doing very little until they all got their procs to line up and you can't do much to them because they can just stack health and armor to worry about

I'd say the vatatrash destro might be the worst though. Easy to trigger off a free spell that also reduces your targets armor for you. Let me know when a stat set gives you 2k damage even in a 5 piece, let alone 2 piece.

Sounds like not only a gross over performance of the vat destro but ele drain as a whole, I always found it quite strange that a skill that gives such a strong debuff and huge amount of resources had no cost.

Budget wise; it is rather uneven in a bubble but I think as far as magicka users go and strenght in the big picture, it would be fine. Giving it essentially a 2k+ DPS DOT though; is taking something overtuned but ignorable and making it ludicrous. I mean, you even have stam classes using it.

katorga

Other than a big burst with a long cooldown, how it is different from Leeching? Bahraha's? No one uses those. Just to play devil's advocate. The more "X is broken" posts there are the more people who try X. Eventually it crests and recedes, and becomes just another build.

But, ZOS has been pretty consistent about lowering the ceiling, raising the floor, and proc metas do that with a vengeance.

SgtNuttzmeg

This set is way too strong atm. Negates don't even stop it. It's a free health bar reset everything 10 seconds. It doesn't require thought or effort to use either.

Sure it's not as good in a 1v1 but the moment you have 3 or more people with in range the scaling on the healing goes off the charts. Doesn't matter if the person had major defile or you hold block.

Rhaegar75

I think Crimson can be very strong but, in this proc meta, it's far from a broken set.

Arena weapons combined with procs are the real issue in my opinion.

Vateshran is also a main target

Fawn4287

katorga wrote: »

Other than a big burst with a long cooldown, how it is different from Leeching? Bahraha's? No one uses those. Just to play devil's advocate. The more "X is broken" posts there are the more people who try X. Eventually it crests and recedes, and becomes just another build.

But, ZOS has been pretty consistent about lowering the ceiling, raising the floor, and proc metas do that with a vengeance.

Ive always held out that hopefully in the same way DOTs were buffed heavily before being nerfed back in to near uselessness for non DOT centric builds (soul trap, structured entropy), this was going to be a blanket buff before adding scaling mechanics to proc damage sets or nerfing them in to near useless obscurity. Especially now with how performance is at such a low point with skills almost worthless in peak time lag and proc sets working like clockwork. the devs are aware of how bad things currently sit and hopefully are planning to kick at least some of the crutches out.

Kartalin

Eh, crimson just lets them live longer as they run around a tower but doesn't really net them any kills outside of some clueless noobs/lowbies. Annoying, but not grossly overpowered. If the damage/healing values were tuned down maybe 15%, wouldn't be a huge deal. Or ZOS's specialty nowadays is decrease the proc number and decrease the cooldown (or vice versa), but with less dps overall than before.

Fawn4287

Kartalin wrote: »

Eh, crimson just lets them live longer as they run around a tower but doesn't really net them any kills outside of some clueless noobs/lowbies. Annoying, but not grossly overpowered. If the damage/healing values were tuned down maybe 15%, wouldn't be a huge deal. Or ZOS's specialty nowadays is decrease the proc number and decrease the cooldown (or vice versa), but with less dps overall than before.

Try fight a 40k health werewolf in the IC (not that any of them play solo anyway) with crimson on and tell me how you go, lol even if you have the DPS to put one down (which you wont if you are built tanky enough to survive against one) they will sprint around faster than anything other than a streaking sorc and gap-close from group of ads to group of ads proccing crimson eating up ridiculous burst heals every time it procs whilst also jamming their own absurdly over tuned health based heal.

Faded

Sload's Semblance (original flavor)

/thread

WrathOfInnos

techyeshic wrote: »

Its all over Cyrodiil as well. Its the proc sets in general. Everyone's just running high health and try to get their procs off. Not very hard to do, either. Had 4 guys chasing me around doing very little until they all got their procs to line up and you can't do much to them because they can just stack health and armor to worry about

I'd say the vatatrash destro might be the worst though. Easy to trigger off a free spell that also reduces your targets armor for you. Let me know when a stat set gives you 2k damage even in a 5 piece, let alone 2 piece.

I won’t comment on Vateshran destro specifically, but in general 2pc weapon sets are intended to have the same power budget as 5pc sets. This is because most builds (with a mythic or monster set) have to directly compare them and choose either a 5pc or a 2pc set. The same goes for comparing weapon sets to monster sets, or monster sets to 5pc sets, all of these are considered the final set bonus and have roughly equal value.

wheem_ESO

One of the grossest uses I've ever seen of Crimson was a BG premade where everyone - even the healer - was wearing it, while also stacking a lot of other AOE (Azureblight Reaper set, Subterranean Assault/Deep Fissure, Bombard spam, and Wall of Frost). Trying to block multiple Crimson procs with so much AOE being thrown around would pretty much decimate my Magicka build's Stamina pool, and the endless root spam made it impossible to avoid as well. Without dedicated healers, both opposing teams got obliterated, and theirs never seemed to be pressured very much with all the Crimson heals going on.

techyeshic

wheem_ESO wrote: »

One of the grossest uses I've ever seen of Crimson was a BG premade where everyone - even the healer - was wearing it, while also stacking a lot of other AOE (Azureblight Reaper set, Subterranean Assault/Deep Fissure, Bombard spam, and Wall of Frost). Trying to block multiple Crimson procs with so much AOE being thrown around would pretty much decimate my Magicka build's Stamina pool, and the endless root spam made it impossible to avoid as well. Without dedicated healers, both opposing teams got obliterated, and theirs never seemed to be pressured very much with all the Crimson heals going on.

What? No pulls to go with the root spam?

relentless_turnip

Putting crimson on a magsorc is just blindly following the meta without any consideration for how the class traditionally functions. It doesn't work on a lot of classes, but people think it's always bis. Tbh 1 v 1 it's a bad choice, outnumbered it will keep you alive though👍

It is an overpowered set it needs an enemy cap and a damage reduction or heal reduction.

Waffennacht

I dont mind facing against it because I know how to avoid it, but I dont use it because its just so cliche now

katorga

Fawn4287 wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

Other than a big burst with a long cooldown, how it is different from Leeching? Bahraha's? No one uses those. Just to play devil's advocate. The more "X is broken" posts there are the more people who try X. Eventually it crests and recedes, and becomes just another build.

But, ZOS has been pretty consistent about lowering the ceiling, raising the floor, and proc metas do that with a vengeance.

Especially now with how performance is at such a low point with skills almost worthless in peak time lag and proc sets working like clockwork. the devs are aware of how bad things currently sit and hopefully are planning to kick at least some of the crutches out.

Why would ZOS kick the crutches out if they are not fixing performance?

My personal opinion is that health/proc builds are counters to poor server performance. They always work. Love them or hate them, they do function properly while you are spamming keys trying to get active skills to work.

ivramirez

worst set ever

PhoenixGrey

40k health pool is your problem and not crimson. Cap health pools to 25k or something

Skills or sets which scale to outnumbered situations are used by players who play in outnumbered situations (I am guessing OP is not that type by quite a stretch ! ) which is less than 2% of the PVP population. There is close to zero impact to overall PVP nerfing sets like these.

I personally need more sets like these for my own gameplay. Its a crutch for me but not for the remaining 98% PVP'ers so idc

SgtNuttzmeg

katorga wrote: »

Other than a big burst with a long cooldown, how it is different from Leeching? Bahraha's? No one uses those. Just to play devil's advocate. The more "X is broken" posts there are the more people who try X. Eventually it crests and recedes, and becomes just another build.

But, ZOS has been pretty consistent about lowering the ceiling, raising the floor, and proc metas do that with a vengeance.

It's not a long cool down. It's only ten seconds. Throw artic blast on a Stamden. Make sure you have atleast 40k max health and you become virtually unkillable.

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

40k health pool is your problem and not crimson. Cap health pools to 25k or something

Skills or sets which scale to outnumbered situations are used by players who play in outnumbered situations (I am guessing OP is not that type by quite a stretch ! ) which is less than 2% of the PVP population. There is close to zero impact to overall PVP nerfing sets like these.

I personally need more sets like these for my own gameplay. Its a crutch for me but not for the remaining 98% PVP'ers so idc

That's part of the problem. But saying crimison in it's current form isn't a problem is underestimating the power of the scaling of this set. Most heals in this game have a cap. Maximum you are capable of hitting. You physically can't heal more. Crimison doesn't. Crimison can't be negated, it doesn't cost resources to use. All you need to do is to step into a crowd. Hitting four people with it is a minimum 8k heal. That might not sound like a lot but when combined with 5 heavy, LOSing and other HoTs it is really strong. I have seen entire 12 man groups running this set. It stalls out combat and ruins performance.

Add on the fact that there is currently no real detriment to running heavy and it makes for a very tanky meta where fights drag on and performance suffers.

We definitely need a health cap but try to build a heavy armor warden that has less than 30k max health. It is really challenging. There has been a power creep in sustain., damage and survivability. It has been done to decrease the skill gap but it has only served to hurt performance and reduce build diversity.

mikey_reach

I never really liked crimson even as a 1vxer i never really need the extra healing there are way better sets out there for a 5 piece.

Fawn4287

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

40k health pool is your problem and not crimson. Cap health pools to 25k or something

Skills or sets which scale to outnumbered situations are used by players who play in outnumbered situations (I am guessing OP is not that type by quite a stretch ! ) which is less than 2% of the PVP population. There is close to zero impact to overall PVP nerfing sets like these.

I personally need more sets like these for my own gameplay. Its a crutch for me but not for the remaining 98% PVP'ers so idc

If only that was the case, I don't hear of any good solo player who thinks that crimson isn’t ridiculously overtuned, but I guess that opinion isn’t floated in a werewolf/ health stacking type group any heavy crimson user would roll in. Most top tier PvPers refuse to run proc sets, werewolf or any set that doesn’t offer a raw stat boost as a clip of a 40k health warden 1vXing doesn’t earn any bragging rights amongst skilled 1vXers. I have played almost exclusively solo or in a 2 man for the entirety of playing ESO PvP. Solo or duo players that aren’t spamming cloak/shade or streak are a very small percentage of the PvP playerbase that can only do it with literal years of practice just to survive outnumbered let alone kill anyone. Crimson is the “survival for dummies” set, as most good PvPers can maintain enough distance and use line of sight to not have to rely on afk heal procs.

mikey_reach

Fawn4287 wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

40k health pool is your problem and not crimson. Cap health pools to 25k or something

Skills or sets which scale to outnumbered situations are used by players who play in outnumbered situations (I am guessing OP is not that type by quite a stretch ! ) which is less than 2% of the PVP population. There is close to zero impact to overall PVP nerfing sets like these.

I personally need more sets like these for my own gameplay. Its a crutch for me but not for the remaining 98% PVP'ers so idc

If only that was the case, I don't hear of any good solo player who thinks that crimson isn’t ridiculously overtuned, but I guess that opinion isn’t floated in a werewolf/ health stacking type group any heavy crimson user would roll in. Most top tier PvPers refuse to run proc sets, werewolf or any set that doesn’t offer a raw stat boost as a clip of a 40k health warden 1vXing doesn’t earn any bragging rights amongst skilled 1vXers. I have played almost exclusively solo or in a 2 man for the entirety of playing ESO PvP. Solo or duo players that aren’t spamming cloak/shade or streak are a very small percentage of the PvP playerbase that can only do it with literal years of practice just to survive outnumbered let alone kill anyone. Crimson is the “survival for dummies” set, as most good PvPers can maintain enough distance and use line of sight to not have to rely on afk heal procs.

I agree with the statement about crimson being a survival for dummies set. Sure it will help you survive more but so will sets like trickery and it offers more. I know you cant just slap tickery on any build like a warden for exmaple but i definately do benefit more from trickery on a stam sorc or dk than i will from crimson. From an 1vx perspective.

PhoenixGrey

Fawn4287 wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

40k health pool is your problem and not crimson. Cap health pools to 25k or something

Skills or sets which scale to outnumbered situations are used by players who play in outnumbered situations (I am guessing OP is not that type by quite a stretch ! ) which is less than 2% of the PVP population. There is close to zero impact to overall PVP nerfing sets like these.

I personally need more sets like these for my own gameplay. Its a crutch for me but not for the remaining 98% PVP'ers so idc

Most top tier PvPers refuse to run proc sets, werewolf or any set that doesn’t offer a raw stat boost as a clip of a 40k health warden 1vXing doesn’t earn any bragging rights amongst skilled 1vXers. I have played almost exclusively solo or in a 2 man for the entirety of playing ESO PvP. Solo or duo players that aren’t spamming cloak/shade or streak are a very small percentage of the PvP playerbase that can only do it with literal years of practice just to survive outnumbered let alone kill anyone. Crimson is the “survival for dummies” set, as most good PvPers can maintain enough distance and use line of sight to not have to rely on afk heal procs.

The state of the current meta is a stat based top tier PVP'er would get 1Vx'ed by a average PVP'er wearing a proc set and a high health pool. That would earn more bragging rights

Spamming streak / BOL / cloak is a personal playstyle preference. What matters is the level of players you can actually fight and win outnumbered. Playing stat based builds which can at best farm potatoes in this meta is pretty boring imo

Fawn4287

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Fawn4287 wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

40k health pool is your problem and not crimson. Cap health pools to 25k or something

Skills or sets which scale to outnumbered situations are used by players who play in outnumbered situations (I am guessing OP is not that type by quite a stretch ! ) which is less than 2% of the PVP population. There is close to zero impact to overall PVP nerfing sets like these.

I personally need more sets like these for my own gameplay. Its a crutch for me but not for the remaining 98% PVP'ers so idc

Most top tier PvPers refuse to run proc sets, werewolf or any set that doesn’t offer a raw stat boost as a clip of a 40k health warden 1vXing doesn’t earn any bragging rights amongst skilled 1vXers. I have played almost exclusively solo or in a 2 man for the entirety of playing ESO PvP. Solo or duo players that aren’t spamming cloak/shade or streak are a very small percentage of the PvP playerbase that can only do it with literal years of practice just to survive outnumbered let alone kill anyone. Crimson is the “survival for dummies” set, as most good PvPers can maintain enough distance and use line of sight to not have to rely on afk heal procs.

The state of the current meta is a stat based top tier PVP'er would get 1Vx'ed by a average PVP'er wearing a proc set and a high health pool. That would earn more bragging rights

Spamming streak / BOL / cloak is a personal playstyle preference. What matters is the level of players you can actually fight and win outnumbered. Playing stat based builds which can at best farm potatoes in this meta is pretty boring imo

Not at all, potato proc tanks aren’t build to kill, they’re built to run around farming ap/tel var, whilst being incredibly difficult to kill, if they all ran around on pure tanks they wouldn’t be able to kill guards, world bosses or even IC ads at a reasonably quick rate. The key is that malacath enables them to have enough damage to be able to zerg people down whilst health based heals combined with crimson makes it almost impossible to kill them 1 or even 2v1.