Lore friendly orc class?

JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO

What class is the most lore friendly for Orcs?

Ratzkifal

You can make up an explanation for an Orc to be any class but if we go by the stereotype then it'll probably be a stamina Warden. All the other classes are clearly using magic for their skills, even for the stamina morphs.
Dragonknight might also work because there is room for interpretation of them just using a martial art to do their skills and their ways were taught to many in service of the Empire, which includes many Orcs too.

JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO

So orcs don't use magic?

Ghanima_Atreides

JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO wrote: »

So orcs don't use magic?

Yes they do; the game is full of example of Orc mages. Besides, the Warden class relies pretty heavily on Nature magic (summoning spectral creatures, healing/damaging vegetation and so on) the only way to be "true stamina" would be to use weapons skills exclusively, but that would limit you quite a bit.

colossalvoids

At least in my eyes stamina sorcerer was the most fitting using mostly weapon skills, not so sure now after some skill changes and adjustments.

Ratzkifal

JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO wrote: »

So orcs don't use magic?

On average, no they don't. But yes, Orcs can use magic too. There is no law of nature that says they can't. It's just that they aren't very magical on average.

Aigym_Hlervu

As I've said in other posts, though I'll repeat: Sorcerer, Nightblade, Dragon Knight, etc. are neither classes nor estates and not even professions. Here is my definition of those classes: a character's class is a predefined complex of skills and knowledge, a result of a particular course of study which grants a character the ability to perform certain functions within the social division of labour in any system so that a character may specialize in. In other words, character class is a type of education a character acquires. For example, characters with a Sorcerer education can have many professions: a healer, a tank, an enchanter, a soldier, a scholar, etc. It's only the matter of certain skills they use, their views, beliefs and.. some economic demands - the benefits of some educational programs may be changed from patch to a patch.

Ratzkifal is right saying that on average the Orcs do not use magic, I only have to add here that it's not because they are literally.. Orcs. On average none of the races uses magic that wide regarding the majority of of a given population. Since the Guild Act of 2E 321 magic is taught for money in the Mages Guild or in the academies and colleges like Shad Astula in Morrowind to those who can afford it. It is also traditionally taught among the Sapiarchs and the Telvanni nobles, but since it is both not free and requires certain intellectual abilities it has never been that wide spread even among traditional communities. The majority of any population always consists of common workers. So, should we assume that the most lore friendly class of any race is a peasant, a worker, a hunter or a commoner? I guess it's a wrong approach.

So, the Orcish people can be of any class and trade, they can be even sculptors. People of different races might have a different proneness towards certain professions because of the socio-economic environment they live in that makes more of them become certain experts in comparison to other races. This makes the Redguards generally bad at necromancy due to their certain cultural restrictions on it, but still they can become the ones. Or, say, the Nords can be really tough necromancers or even one of the most powerful wizards in Tamriel in spite of the fact that physical education is much more popular among them. So, your question "What class is the most lore friendly for Orcs?" is incorrect, OP. Pick up any you like among those available - they all are ok.

Ratzkifal

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

[...]

Ratzkifal is right saying that on average the Orcs do not use magic, I only have to add here that it's not because they are literally.. Orcs. On average none of the races uses magic that wide regarding the majority of of a given population. Since the Guild Act of 2E 321 magic is taught for money in the Mages Guild or in the academies and colleges like Shad Astula in Morrowind to those who can afford it. It is also traditionally taught among the Sapiarchs and the Telvanni nobles, but since it is both not free and requires certain intellectual abilities it has never been that wide spread even among traditional communities. The majority of any population always consists of common workers. So, should we assume that the most lore friendly class of any race is a peasant, a worker, a hunter or a commoner? I guess it's a wrong approach.

So, the Orcish people can be of any class and trade, they can be even sculptors. People of different races might have a different proneness towards certain professions because of the socio-economic environment they live in that makes more of them become certain experts in comparison to other races. This makes the Redguards generally bad at necromancy due to their certain cultural restrictions on it, but still they can become the ones. Or, say, the Nords can be really tough necromancers or even one of the most powerful wizards in Tamriel in spite of the fact that physical education is much more popular among them. So, your question "What class is the most lore friendly for Orcs?" is incorrect, OP. Pick up any you like among those available - they all are ok.

I have to disagree that this is just a matter of education.
The races of Tamriel are physically and metaphysically different from each other.
While education does play a part in it of course, it is by no means the full picture. The average Orc will not pick up on the workings of a spell the same way the average Breton or High Elf will, even when they receive identical education. A lot of it comes down to the talent of the individual. This is what creates the famous exceptions we hear a lot about, like Shalidor the great Nord mage. These exceptions are deceptive though because they make people think that any Nord can be like Shalidor when in reality only someone of Shalidor's caliber could be like Shalidor.
Had Shalidor been a High Elf instead of a Nord, then he would have been an even greater mage, yet even Shalidor had the same resistance to frost as his fellow Nords and would have build muscles faster than a High Elf assuming they had the same workout routine.

But don't let these general principles restrict you. Your character is an individual and certainly not average. The only place where these averages matter is in the racial passives of the game, which are meant to represent and tell you about the race as a whole, not the individual.

FrancisCrawford

Dedicated crafter

FrancisCrawford

Seriously, I'd say Stamden. Why?

• They use actual physical weapons, not conjured ones.
• What they do conjure is stuff that could conceivably be found in nature, where many of the clans live.

Aigym_Hlervu

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

[...]

Ratzkifal is right saying that on average the Orcs do not use magic, I only have to add here that it's not because they are literally.. Orcs. On average none of the races uses magic that wide regarding the majority of of a given population. Since the Guild Act of 2E 321 magic is taught for money in the Mages Guild or in the academies and colleges like Shad Astula in Morrowind to those who can afford it. It is also traditionally taught among the Sapiarchs and the Telvanni nobles, but since it is both not free and requires certain intellectual abilities it has never been that wide spread even among traditional communities. The majority of any population always consists of common workers. So, should we assume that the most lore friendly class of any race is a peasant, a worker, a hunter or a commoner? I guess it's a wrong approach.

So, the Orcish people can be of any class and trade, they can be even sculptors. People of different races might have a different proneness towards certain professions because of the socio-economic environment they live in that makes more of them become certain experts in comparison to other races. This makes the Redguards generally bad at necromancy due to their certain cultural restrictions on it, but still they can become the ones. Or, say, the Nords can be really tough necromancers or even one of the most powerful wizards in Tamriel in spite of the fact that physical education is much more popular among them. So, your question "What class is the most lore friendly for Orcs?" is incorrect, OP. Pick up any you like among those available - they all are ok.

I have to disagree that this is just a matter of education.
The races of Tamriel are physically and metaphysically different from each other.
While education does play a part in it of course, it is by no means the full picture. The average Orc will not pick up on the workings of a spell the same way the average Breton or High Elf will, even when they receive identical education. A lot of it comes down to the talent of the individual. This is what creates the famous exceptions we hear a lot about, like Shalidor the great Nord mage. These exceptions are deceptive though because they make people think that any Nord can be like Shalidor when in reality only someone of Shalidor's caliber could be like Shalidor.
Had Shalidor been a High Elf instead of a Nord, then he would have been an even greater mage, yet even Shalidor had the same resistance to frost as his fellow Nords and would have build muscles faster than a High Elf assuming they had the same workout routine.

But don't let these general principles restrict you. Your character is an individual and certainly not average. The only place where these averages matter is in the racial passives of the game, which are meant to represent and tell you about the race as a whole, not the individual.

I was not speaking on just education either, Ratzkifal. So, we have no disagreements here, because my way of thinking is the same as yours on that. Here is the part I wrote about it there. Perhaps, I picked up some foggy words so it was not that clear, but writing this I thought exactly of what you have said:

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

[...]
People of different races might have a different proneness towards certain professions because of the socio-economic environment they live in that makes more of them become certain experts in comparison to other races. ..

..and on to the end of that paragraph.

Ratzkifal

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

[...]

Ratzkifal is right saying that on average the Orcs do not use magic, I only have to add here that it's not because they are literally.. Orcs. On average none of the races uses magic that wide regarding the majority of of a given population. Since the Guild Act of 2E 321 magic is taught for money in the Mages Guild or in the academies and colleges like Shad Astula in Morrowind to those who can afford it. It is also traditionally taught among the Sapiarchs and the Telvanni nobles, but since it is both not free and requires certain intellectual abilities it has never been that wide spread even among traditional communities. The majority of any population always consists of common workers. So, should we assume that the most lore friendly class of any race is a peasant, a worker, a hunter or a commoner? I guess it's a wrong approach.

So, the Orcish people can be of any class and trade, they can be even sculptors. People of different races might have a different proneness towards certain professions because of the socio-economic environment they live in that makes more of them become certain experts in comparison to other races. This makes the Redguards generally bad at necromancy due to their certain cultural restrictions on it, but still they can become the ones. Or, say, the Nords can be really tough necromancers or even one of the most powerful wizards in Tamriel in spite of the fact that physical education is much more popular among them. So, your question "What class is the most lore friendly for Orcs?" is incorrect, OP. Pick up any you like among those available - they all are ok.

I have to disagree that this is just a matter of education.
The races of Tamriel are physically and metaphysically different from each other.
While education does play a part in it of course, it is by no means the full picture. The average Orc will not pick up on the workings of a spell the same way the average Breton or High Elf will, even when they receive identical education. A lot of it comes down to the talent of the individual. This is what creates the famous exceptions we hear a lot about, like Shalidor the great Nord mage. These exceptions are deceptive though because they make people think that any Nord can be like Shalidor when in reality only someone of Shalidor's caliber could be like Shalidor.
Had Shalidor been a High Elf instead of a Nord, then he would have been an even greater mage, yet even Shalidor had the same resistance to frost as his fellow Nords and would have build muscles faster than a High Elf assuming they had the same workout routine.

But don't let these general principles restrict you. Your character is an individual and certainly not average. The only place where these averages matter is in the racial passives of the game, which are meant to represent and tell you about the race as a whole, not the individual.

I was not speaking on just education either, Ratzkifal. So, we have no disagreements here, because my way of thinking is the same as yours on that. Here is the part I wrote about it there. Perhaps, I picked up some foggy words so it was not that clear, but writing this I thought exactly of what you have said:

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

[...]
People of different races might have a different proneness towards certain professions because of the socio-economic environment they live in that makes more of them become certain experts in comparison to other races. ..

..and on to the end of that paragraph.

Yeah, the "socio-economic environment" part made it look to me like you meant that, aside from looks, race is just a social construct in Tamriel, which it isn't, and it all comes down to the nurture of "nature vs nurture", which it doesn't.
I felt reducing it to the socio-economic environment could cause confusion along the lines of an isolated society of Nord mages producing new generations with greater magical affinity just due to the accessibility of magical knowledge and tution, which I don't think would actually be the case unless magical affinity is actually strongly hereditary, which it doesn't appear to be. It looks more like a matter of chance or birthsign.
So that's why I felt the need to clarify there. Glad we agree on this though.

At the end of the day, we should always remember that our characters are exceptional individuals with the potential to be anything we want them to be.

Aigym_Hlervu

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

[...]

Ratzkifal is right saying that on average the Orcs do not use magic, I only have to add here that it's not because they are literally.. Orcs. On average none of the races uses magic that wide regarding the majority of of a given population. Since the Guild Act of 2E 321 magic is taught for money in the Mages Guild or in the academies and colleges like Shad Astula in Morrowind to those who can afford it. It is also traditionally taught among the Sapiarchs and the Telvanni nobles, but since it is both not free and requires certain intellectual abilities it has never been that wide spread even among traditional communities. The majority of any population always consists of common workers. So, should we assume that the most lore friendly class of any race is a peasant, a worker, a hunter or a commoner? I guess it's a wrong approach.

So, the Orcish people can be of any class and trade, they can be even sculptors. People of different races might have a different proneness towards certain professions because of the socio-economic environment they live in that makes more of them become certain experts in comparison to other races. This makes the Redguards generally bad at necromancy due to their certain cultural restrictions on it, but still they can become the ones. Or, say, the Nords can be really tough necromancers or even one of the most powerful wizards in Tamriel in spite of the fact that physical education is much more popular among them. So, your question "What class is the most lore friendly for Orcs?" is incorrect, OP. Pick up any you like among those available - they all are ok.

I have to disagree that this is just a matter of education.
The races of Tamriel are physically and metaphysically different from each other.
While education does play a part in it of course, it is by no means the full picture. The average Orc will not pick up on the workings of a spell the same way the average Breton or High Elf will, even when they receive identical education. A lot of it comes down to the talent of the individual. This is what creates the famous exceptions we hear a lot about, like Shalidor the great Nord mage. These exceptions are deceptive though because they make people think that any Nord can be like Shalidor when in reality only someone of Shalidor's caliber could be like Shalidor.
Had Shalidor been a High Elf instead of a Nord, then he would have been an even greater mage, yet even Shalidor had the same resistance to frost as his fellow Nords and would have build muscles faster than a High Elf assuming they had the same workout routine.

But don't let these general principles restrict you. Your character is an individual and certainly not average. The only place where these averages matter is in the racial passives of the game, which are meant to represent and tell you about the race as a whole, not the individual.

I was not speaking on just education either, Ratzkifal. So, we have no disagreements here, because my way of thinking is the same as yours on that. Here is the part I wrote about it there. Perhaps, I picked up some foggy words so it was not that clear, but writing this I thought exactly of what you have said:

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

[...]
People of different races might have a different proneness towards certain professions because of the socio-economic environment they live in that makes more of them become certain experts in comparison to other races. ..

..and on to the end of that paragraph.

Yeah, the "socio-economic environment" part made it look to me like you meant that, aside from looks, race is just a social construct in Tamriel, which it isn't, and it all comes down to the nurture of "nature vs nurture", which it doesn't.
I felt reducing it to the socio-economic environment could cause confusion along the lines of an isolated society of Nord mages producing new generations with greater magical affinity just due to the accessibility of magical knowledge and tution, which I don't think would actually be the case unless magical affinity is actually strongly hereditary, which it doesn't appear to be. It looks more like a matter of chance or birthsign.
So that's why I felt the need to clarify there. Glad we agree on this though.

At the end of the day, we should always remember that our characters are exceptional individuals with the potential to be anything we want them to be.

Yes, agreed totally, Ratzkifal, my opinion has been the same including that paragraph on the exceptional individuals you've written this time. I guess the OP don't have to worry about the "lore friendliness" of his class at all.

ArcaneScientius

"Disrupt my Arcanaeum, and I will have you torn apart by angry Atronachs." - Urag gro-Shub
I agree that orcs are not natural wizards.
If you are looking for the least magical class, Ratzkifal is right the warden presents the least magical or overtly magic-using class.
Use ice fortress, it has much less visually magical effect than e.g. hurricane for sorc or bone cage for necro, green lotus for savagery, Arctic wind for heal (short duration and minimal visuals and can be a crowd control, or maybe compromise on the class heal you prefer), then use either subterranean assault or sword and shield for breach (s&s if you don't want the short duration of assault and/or don't want the visuals) then grab either momentum in two hand or hidden blade or flying dagger in dual wield for major brutality if you do not want a gas-filled bull netch following you around.
Grab the advanced species passives in animal line, slot bird of prey and bear companion on front bar for damage buffs and you can either use your bear or just ignore it and reap the passives.
An alternative for a no magic build is to use bow on the back bar.
... but I think orcs may use bows even less than magic (I can't think of one archer orc off hand, maybe the huntress in a skyrim orc stronghold). But bow will work in game as a non magic character.

Iccotak

All classes are lore friendly for all races

Each class is simply a collection of skills - how your character has these skills is up to you

Athan1

I liked the orc necromancer from Elsweyr, so that's an option.

tuxon

My Orc is a follower of Trinimac so he is a Templar! He uses Aedric magic just like his Aedra patron, Trinimac the Paragon!

tuxon

Iccotak wrote: »

All classes are lore friendly for all races

Each class is simply a collection of skills - how your character has these skills is up to you

No! Dragonknight should be exclusive EP class (LORE wisely ofc only). DKs appeared on Tamriel after Akaviri invasion that formed EP in the first place.

VaIerius

tuxon wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

All classes are lore friendly for all races

Each class is simply a collection of skills - how your character has these skills is up to you

No! Dragonknight should be exclusive EP class (LORE wisely ofc only). DKs appeared on Tamriel after Akaviri invasion that formed EP in the first place.

The martial arts of the Dragonknights originated from the First Akaviri Invasion (carried out by the Tsaesci). The one that took place just before ESO and resulted in the Ebonheart Pact is the Second Akaviri Invasion (carried out by the Kamal) and doesn’t really have anything to do with the origin of Dragonknights. Lore-wise, Dragonknights should generally be Imperials, since the Tsaesci interbred with Imperials and Cyrodiilic culture is heavily influenced by Tsaesci culture.

https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Legacy_of_the_Dragonguard

kaisernick

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

[...]

Ratzkifal is right saying that on average the Orcs do not use magic, I only have to add here that it's not because they are literally.. Orcs. On average none of the races uses magic that wide regarding the majority of of a given population. Since the Guild Act of 2E 321 magic is taught for money in the Mages Guild or in the academies and colleges like Shad Astula in Morrowind to those who can afford it. It is also traditionally taught among the Sapiarchs and the Telvanni nobles, but since it is both not free and requires certain intellectual abilities it has never been that wide spread even among traditional communities. The majority of any population always consists of common workers. So, should we assume that the most lore friendly class of any race is a peasant, a worker, a hunter or a commoner? I guess it's a wrong approach.

So, the Orcish people can be of any class and trade, they can be even sculptors. People of different races might have a different proneness towards certain professions because of the socio-economic environment they live in that makes more of them become certain experts in comparison to other races. This makes the Redguards generally bad at necromancy due to their certain cultural restrictions on it, but still they can become the ones. Or, say, the Nords can be really tough necromancers or even one of the most powerful wizards in Tamriel in spite of the fact that physical education is much more popular among them. So, your question "What class is the most lore friendly for Orcs?" is incorrect, OP. Pick up any you like among those available - they all are ok.

I have to disagree that this is just a matter of education.
The races of Tamriel are physically and metaphysically different from each other.
While education does play a part in it of course, it is by no means the full picture. The average Orc will not pick up on the workings of a spell the same way the average Breton or High Elf will, even when they receive identical education. A lot of it comes down to the talent of the individual. This is what creates the famous exceptions we hear a lot about, like Shalidor the great Nord mage. These exceptions are deceptive though because they make people think that any Nord can be like Shalidor when in reality only someone of Shalidor's caliber could be like Shalidor.
Had Shalidor been a High Elf instead of a Nord, then he would have been an even greater mage, yet even Shalidor had the same resistance to frost as his fellow Nords and would have build muscles faster than a High Elf assuming they had the same workout routine.

But don't let these general principles restrict you. Your character is an individual and certainly not average. The only place where these averages matter is in the racial passives of the game, which are meant to represent and tell you about the race as a whole, not the individual.

Genetics also play a part of ES races otherwise the breton notion of being skilled with magic would not exsist and orcs are decended from elves so they likly can if they focus on such things become very good magic users.

JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO

kaisernick wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

[...]

Ratzkifal is right saying that on average the Orcs do not use magic, I only have to add here that it's not because they are literally.. Orcs. On average none of the races uses magic that wide regarding the majority of of a given population. Since the Guild Act of 2E 321 magic is taught for money in the Mages Guild or in the academies and colleges like Shad Astula in Morrowind to those who can afford it. It is also traditionally taught among the Sapiarchs and the Telvanni nobles, but since it is both not free and requires certain intellectual abilities it has never been that wide spread even among traditional communities. The majority of any population always consists of common workers. So, should we assume that the most lore friendly class of any race is a peasant, a worker, a hunter or a commoner? I guess it's a wrong approach.

So, the Orcish people can be of any class and trade, they can be even sculptors. People of different races might have a different proneness towards certain professions because of the socio-economic environment they live in that makes more of them become certain experts in comparison to other races. This makes the Redguards generally bad at necromancy due to their certain cultural restrictions on it, but still they can become the ones. Or, say, the Nords can be really tough necromancers or even one of the most powerful wizards in Tamriel in spite of the fact that physical education is much more popular among them. So, your question "What class is the most lore friendly for Orcs?" is incorrect, OP. Pick up any you like among those available - they all are ok.

I have to disagree that this is just a matter of education.
The races of Tamriel are physically and metaphysically different from each other.
While education does play a part in it of course, it is by no means the full picture. The average Orc will not pick up on the workings of a spell the same way the average Breton or High Elf will, even when they receive identical education. A lot of it comes down to the talent of the individual. This is what creates the famous exceptions we hear a lot about, like Shalidor the great Nord mage. These exceptions are deceptive though because they make people think that any Nord can be like Shalidor when in reality only someone of Shalidor's caliber could be like Shalidor.
Had Shalidor been a High Elf instead of a Nord, then he would have been an even greater mage, yet even Shalidor had the same resistance to frost as his fellow Nords and would have build muscles faster than a High Elf assuming they had the same workout routine.

But don't let these general principles restrict you. Your character is an individual and certainly not average. The only place where these averages matter is in the racial passives of the game, which are meant to represent and tell you about the race as a whole, not the individual.

Genetics also play a part of ES races otherwise the breton notion of being skilled with magic would not exsist and orcs are decended from elves so they likly can if they focus on such things become very good magic users.

Aren't a lot of necromancer orcs?

TheFibrewire

Orc Warden with bear

noblecron

Any class works. There's an old clan that uses fire magic and Reachmen learned their magics from the orcs. You also see Orcs of various classes in game or use class mechanics such as Templar and Warden

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Orc_Clans_and_Symbology

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Pocket_Guide_to_the_Empire,_1st_Edition/High_Rock

Crazyprophet

I can see a Trinimac-worshipping-orc going full Templar :P

SirPaws

I like to look at Orsimer history when I plan my Orc characters. Ever since playing through Wrothgar, I have wanted to roll a magden based on Zbulgat the Wild-Walker. He's described in the Horn of Beasts snippet as the Shaman of Wrothgar.

In Morkul Decent there are plaques to ancient Orsimer heroes such as Baloth Bloodtusk. The statue of the wizard has a plaque commemorating Mazghar Many-Tongues, suggesting that Orsimer mages weren't unheard of back in the glory days.

My Orc stamcro is slightly different in that I took inspiration from the book On Orcs and the Afterlife. I wanted a very traditional, Malacath-following character and wanted a, way of tying necromancy to Malacath. The text talks about the Ashen Forge and grudges being part of an Orsimer's soul:

"... and every Orc must undergo the ritual of tempering when first they cross from this life to the next. They are thrust into the coals so that every grudge that he or she carried into the afterlife can be heated, melted, and eventually forged into the next generation of mortal Orcs. With the grudges of Tamriel tempered and returned to the mortal world, the immortal Orcs are now free to begin collecting a new set of grudges related to their new existence."

So I interpret my Orc necromancer as using these grudges to reanimate the fallen in order to harm her enemies, bringing necromancy neatly into Malacath's domain. Or at least used in a way he wouldn't necessarily disapprove of.

I think, when it comes to lore-friendly classes for the different races and cultures, existing lore need not be a shackle restricting the player. Instead, finding ways to fit something in that makes sense to you is where the fun truly is. This is the approach I'm pretty sure the Loremaster and writers use, such as when they introduced Jephrine Paladins along with the style pages.

Athan1

Given that orcs will now have spell damage too, templar and necro look like even better choices for orcs.

Olen_Mikko

Actually pretty interesting.

I'd say stamina dragonknight, with dual wield axes / axe + sword and heavy armor

DK probably gives the best impression of berserking melee warrior.

Might not be the most viable build, but that's not what was asked.

Aliyavana

JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO wrote: »

So orcs don't use magic?

as far back as Daggerfall they did.

Snowstrider

Plumber only real lorebeards understand

Septimus_Magna

1. Warden
2. Necromancer
3. Sorcerer

Tensar

stop with warden
Warden use faune and flora from morrowind, dosn't make sense on other race (even on dunmer it's stupid)