Stone Giant. Time For Another Change?

CageKnight

As most DK's will remember, almost a year ago now, Harrowstorm brought about a rework for Stone Giant, a morph of Stone Fist. This rework upset MagDK's because it took away their only ranged stun, and upset StamDK's because, while it gave them a spammable like they had been asking for since launch, it was clunky and unfun to use, cost way too much, and was a horrid amalgamation of range and melee. This reworked stone giant is still in the game despite all the negative responses to the skill.

I understand that a lot of effort was put into the animations, but this is what nobody wanted. Maybe with this post, ZOS will see that people still don't want this, and change it once again in the upcoming Gates of Oblivion update, perhaps bringing StamDK back up the PvE ladder, making them able to compete with the other Stamina DPS's? I for one would be A-Okay if they gave it the Crystal Weapon treatment and turned it into another Crushing Weapon clone, it would at least be better than what we have now.

What does everyone else think?

Vevvev

I'm biased and want old Stone Giant back.

- magDK


For real though, while I've gotten to love Fossilize ((And it's suddenly become required on my PVP builds in order to kill Thews Necromancers.)) I have not really played with stamDK and the new ability. Visually the ability looks really cool but function > form and the ability has only niche uses.

I feel like they should rework it into something probably akin to the old Mend Wounds Psijic ability back when it cost magicka to use. Instead of giving stamDK a spammable have the ability increase the damage of light and heavy attacks, while also giving them new functionality like the heavy attacking being a ranged rock throw that can stun. Reason it should cost stamina to use is because if it didn't I can see people stacking spammables like Dizzying Swing with it to terrifying effect.

Sluggy

I am also biased and want the old Stone Giant back

-stamDK

Seriously though, it was a ranged and relatively cheap stun that was very handy in PvP.

And I don't think a class spammable is really going to help as far as bringing StamDKs up the ladder. I don't think damage output is why they aren't considered high on the list. Even I can hit 85-90k DPS with two different builds. But then again these days I guess even 100k is considered only mildly impressive so maybe I'm totally wrong there?

Hotdog_23

Stone Giant is a mess, only seen it used once in the last 2-3 months.

The skill has personality issues. It’s Part melee, part range, part stun, part AOE, part single target, part cast time, part instant.

Don’t forget about the Stagger effect mini game someone thought would be fun to throw in as well because why not.

Throw in a heal somewhere and I think this skill has everything except DOT. Might as well put a DOT somewhere in it also because why not it has everything else.

Stay safe and have fun

ketsparrowhawk

Anecdotally, I never see anyone using Stone Giant in either PVE or PVP. At least with the previous version I'd occasionally see a magDK using it in BG's.

It's a shame that they put so much work into the neat animation, yet the skill has no place on anyone's skillbar. No matter what kind of build you're making, another spammable will be better.

Playing a mele build? You'd probably prefer a spammable that isn't a projectile. Projectiles have minimum travel times and are easier to counter than mele spammables. Also some builds are immune to projectiles (shimmering shield, ball of lightning, etc). Better off with Dizzy. Don't know why they couldn't just give us the obvious thing we wanted.. stam whip.

Playing a ranged build? You'd probably prefer a ranged spammable that will actually reach your target every time. With Stone Giant, 1/4 casts only hit in mele range. Better off with Silver Shards.

I don't see them scrapping the animation. At this point I think the best thing is to no longer classify this ability as a spammable, and make it some sort of utility skill/self-buff that makes sense with the animation.

Sluggy

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

Anecdotally, I never see anyone using Stone Giant in either PVE or PVP. At least with the previous version I'd occasionally see a magDK using it in BG's.

It's a shame that they put so much work into the neat animation, yet the skill has no place on anyone's skillbar. No matter what kind of build you're making, another spammable will be better.

Playing a mele build? You'd probably prefer a spammable that isn't a projectile. Projectiles have minimum travel times and are easier to counter than mele spammables. Also some builds are immune to projectiles (shimmering shield, ball of lightning, etc). Better off with Dizzy. Don't know why they couldn't just give us the obvious thing we wanted.. stam whip.

Playing a ranged build? You'd probably prefer a ranged spammable that will actually reach your target every time. With Stone Giant, 1/4 casts only hit in mele range. Better off with Silver Shards.

I don't see them scrapping the animation. At this point I think the best thing is to no longer classify this ability as a spammable, and make it some sort of utility skill/self-buff that makes sense with the animation.

I used it for a little bit before they reworked it the second time (or maybe it was the third, there were a lot of revisions lol). There were times when it was handy in lag where d-swing could miss due to positional desync. It was okay but it just *felt* weak and it was honestly hard to tell if it was doing anything. Honestly, I really would just rather have the old version back. I never wanted to see it go in the first place.

And I'm not trying to diminish someone's work here but as far as the animations and fx go, that isn't anything that couldn't have been accomplished in a few hours at most. All of the visual already existed so it was mostly just a case of getting the timeline for the events to sync up. Much more time was probably spent testing and validating that the combat mechs worked and then tweaking things so that the timing wasn't too fast or slow.

Icy_Waffles

I only see tanks using it.

oscarovegren

Give us poison stam whip FFS

ThePedge

I don't like the "empty" cast you have to do in order to get 3 casts. Makes if completely unusable in PvP and as DPS in PvE.

Not uncommon for tanks to use it for the stagger buff.

IxskullzxI

Turn it into an execute plz 😁

WrathOfInnos

It’s an interesting situation, IMO Stone Giant is the defining skill of DK tanks now. No other class can provide the stagger debuff, and MagDK cannot reasonably be asked to use it in Magicka trial groups. I think everyone can agree that the cast time should be removed, but I cannot get onboard for reverting to its old form.

The existence of Stone Giant as a debuff skill doesn’t necessarily mean stamDK cannot have a spammable. I have mixed feelings about stam whip, since it would take away an interesting choice from magDK. It would look cool, but I don’t want to see Flame Lash or Molten Whip go away. Maybe one or both could get hybrid scaling and different damage types similar to how Soul Trap works, but then that gets tricky with animations and whether it gets different effects or keeps the appearance of Fire.

Another possibility is to turn Shattering Rocks into a melee, instant, stamina spammable. I’m not aware of any builds that choose this morph over Fossilize, and it’s already an instant-cast, melee skill that deals some damage. Just increase the damage, change it to physical damage with stamina cost, and remove the stun. This could be a fairly powerful PVE spammable, without affecting PVP at all (since everyone would still choose Fossilize).

Urzigurumash

For PvP StamDK, the only good reason for me to run this instead of a Weapon Skill is to get that Ult Gen every 6 seconds in a way more easily sustained than recasting Igneous or Molten Armaments every 6 seconds. As it is I settle for getting that Ult Gen every 20 seconds or so after Minor Brutality via Igneous or Molten expires. For me, this isn't a good enough reason to run Stone Giant, but I'm partial to Ability Altering Weapons. If it were only Single Target or only AoE I might more easily be persuaded to run this skill over Dizzy Swing or Brawler.

Edit: I should clarify I meant Igneous Shield by Igneous, not Igneous Weapons, and so I really meant Fragmented Shield. We can't cast Fossilize without a non-immune target within range, and Ash Cloud is prohibitively expensive for StamDK, so neither of these can be relied upon for making the most of the Ult Gen passive.

Hotdog_23

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

It’s an interesting situation, IMO Stone Giant is the defining skill of DK tanks now. No other class can provide the stagger debuff, and MagDK cannot reasonably be asked to use it in Magicka trial groups. I think everyone can agree that the cast time should be removed, but I cannot get onboard for reverting to its old form.

The existence of Stone Giant as a debuff skill doesn’t necessarily mean stamDK cannot have a spammable. I have mixed feelings about stam whip, since it would take away an interesting choice from magDK. It would look cool, but I don’t want to see Flame Lash or Molten Whip go away. Maybe one or both could get hybrid scaling and different damage types similar to how Soul Trap works, but then that gets tricky with animations and whether it gets different effects or keeps the appearance of Fire.

Another possibility is to turn Shattering Rocks into a melee, instant, stamina spammable. I’m not aware of any builds that choose this morph over Fossilize, and it’s already an instant-cast, melee skill that deals some damage. Just increase the damage, change it to physical damage with stamina cost, and remove the stun. This could be a fairly powerful PVE spammable, without affecting PVP at all (since everyone would still choose Fossilize).

Off topic of stone giant but just this comment made me think about whip.

Why not make the morphs of Lava Whip scale with highest offensive stat. You don’t have to make it a poison whip since fire fits the StamDK theme of “fire and fury”

Stay safe and have fun

YandereGirlfriend

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

It’s an interesting situation, IMO Stone Giant is the defining skill of DK tanks now. No other class can provide the stagger debuff, and MagDK cannot reasonably be asked to use it in Magicka trial groups. I think everyone can agree that the cast time should be removed, but I cannot get onboard for reverting to its old form.

The existence of Stone Giant as a debuff skill doesn’t necessarily mean stamDK cannot have a spammable. I have mixed feelings about stam whip, since it would take away an interesting choice from magDK. It would look cool, but I don’t want to see Flame Lash or Molten Whip go away. Maybe one or both could get hybrid scaling and different damage types similar to how Soul Trap works, but then that gets tricky with animations and whether it gets different effects or keeps the appearance of Fire.

Another possibility is to turn Shattering Rocks into a melee, instant, stamina spammable. I’m not aware of any builds that choose this morph over Fossilize, and it’s already an instant-cast, melee skill that deals some damage. Just increase the damage, change it to physical damage with stamina cost, and remove the stun. This could be a fairly powerful PVE spammable, without affecting PVP at all (since everyone would still choose Fossilize).

Off topic of stone giant but just this comment made me think about whip.

Why not make the morphs of Lava Whip scale with highest offensive stat. You don’t have to make it a poison whip since fire fits the StamDK theme of “fire and fury”

Stay safe and have fun

You would still run into Champion Point issues since the damage would still be Flame.

I like the idea though. And it is odd that Molten Whip grants BOTH Spell and Weapon Damage (why would you need Weapon Damage on a magDK). It seems like the skill is 40% of the way toward where it needs to be, the final 60% would be scaling with max stats and converting to the appropriate damage type.

ESO_Nightingale

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

Stone Giant is a mess, only seen it used once in the last 2-3 months.

The skill has personality issues. It’s Part melee, part range, part stun, part AOE, part single target, part cast time, part instant.

Don’t forget about the Stagger effect mini game someone thought would be fun to throw in as well because why not.

Throw in a heal somewhere and I think this skill has everything except DOT. Might as well put a DOT somewhere in it also because why not it has everything else.

Stay safe and have fun

I like the concept a ton but it doesn't seem fantastic for pvp. When it comes to skill design, it feels really unique and i like that.

Urzigurumash

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

why would you need Weapon Damage on a magDK

Same reason you'd need Spell Pen on Bosmer I guess*, although in my opinion the only good reason to hybridize a DK for PvP Damage Dealer is to combine Executioner and Whip on one build, so it helps with that. I can't say I enjoyed Whip being something we StamDK felt compelled to slot during the Weapon Damage meta (i.e. between the DOT and Proc metas), but that effect on your eyes is pretty cool.

* note Way of Air also provides Spell Damage, and Senche's Bite is also hybrid friendly, so it seems to me like Bosmer's Spell Pen was deliberately designed to help hybridization

Vevvev

Urzigurumash wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

why would you need Weapon Damage on a magDK

Same reason you'd need Spell Pen on Bosmer I guess*, although in my opinion the only good reason to hybridize a DK for PvP Damage Dealer is to combine Executioner and Whip on one build, so it helps with that. I can't say I enjoyed Whip being something we StamDK felt compelled to slot during the Weapon Damage meta (i.e. between the DOT and Proc metas), but that effect on your eyes is pretty cool.

* note Way of Air also provides Spell Damage, and Senche's Bite is also hybrid friendly, so it seems to me like Bosmer's Spell Pen was deliberately designed to help hybridization

Hybrids are still outperformed by single stat building builds. Like for example magDK has no need for an execute since it's designed to have the damage to kill a person without such an ability. In fact many believe Ferocious Leap to be magDK's "execute" due to it's low cost, high damage, and stun. When it hits a low health target that isn't blocking and isn't CC immune that's basically it.

AinSoph

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

It’s an interesting situation, IMO Stone Giant is the defining skill of DK tanks now. No other class can provide the stagger debuff, and MagDK cannot reasonably be asked to use it in Magicka trial groups. I think everyone can agree that the cast time should be removed, but I cannot get onboard for reverting to its old form.

The existence of Stone Giant as a debuff skill doesn’t necessarily mean stamDK cannot have a spammable. I have mixed feelings about stam whip, since it would take away an interesting choice from magDK. It would look cool, but I don’t want to see Flame Lash or Molten Whip go away. Maybe one or both could get hybrid scaling and different damage types similar to how Soul Trap works, but then that gets tricky with animations and whether it gets different effects or keeps the appearance of Fire.

Another possibility is to turn Shattering Rocks into a melee, instant, stamina spammable. I’m not aware of any builds that choose this morph over Fossilize, and it’s already an instant-cast, melee skill that deals some damage. Just increase the damage, change it to physical damage with stamina cost, and remove the stun. This could be a fairly powerful PVE spammable, without affecting PVP at all (since everyone would still choose Fossilize).

Off topic of stone giant but just this comment made me think about whip.

Why not make the morphs of Lava Whip scale with highest offensive stat. You don’t have to make it a poison whip since fire fits the StamDK theme of “fire and fury”

Stay safe and have fun

You would still run into Champion Point issues since the damage would still be Flame.

I like the idea though. And it is odd that Molten Whip grants BOTH Spell and Weapon Damage (why would you need Weapon Damage on a magDK). It seems like the skill is 40% of the way toward where it needs to be, the final 60% would be scaling with max stats and converting to the appropriate damage type.

The dumbest about Molten is that it's a stacking buff that goes away upon use which makes no sense on a spammable while also dependent on using other Ardent Flame abilities and none of those abilities are really spam-worthy except for unrelenting and maybe FoB?

vingarmo

Why stamdk even need spammable though? For pve melee builds rapid strikes fill this role very well, since it synergize with AY/Deadly on front bar + more chances to proc Selene, not to mention as melee spammable it deals more damage. For ranged builds, lethal arrow is all around better since it benefits from class cost reduction passive and return stamina on every use and again deals more damage.
Personally, I would rather prefer this skill to be reworked into stamina version of flames of oblivion so my stamdk can utilize earthen heart passives in dungeons and solo without slotting molten armaments and it would be much more fun to use as an actual dps skill, even current animation would fit perfectly in this rework.
Alternatively, if this skill stays where it is now as tank debuff I would remove cast time, lower the damage and provide some additional utility that would be useful for a tank (healing on use, damage reduction, sustain bonuses, etc.).

ke.sardenb14_ESO

Personally I use stone giant all the time on my Stam DK. Or at least all the time in group content, primarily because I notice the dps buff to the group, and it makes the already hard job of tanking much easier. I treat it not as a spammable, but as a dot/ debuff you keep up, and then use wrecking blow as my spammable.

But I would love to see this DK get a better spammable, or at the very least get a spammable that procs more dps and sustain passives. Maybe make it melee with no cast time, or change it to poison damage to allow for ardent flame benefits.

System_Data

I personally prefer using class spammables over weapons for class immersion. However, i dislike both Stone Giant and Crystal Weapons. They are both just awkward to use.

Like others have said for Stone Giant, cast time, melee and projectiles into one skill makes it unwieldy to use. If i had to change it, i would remove the cast time, make it all melee damage and make it a three-hit combo where the last hit is aoe cone attack. ZOS wants dks to be a martial class then fine by me, just do it right.

Rkindaleft

I use Stone Giant all the time (including in parsing) and it's not fantastic, but I'd rather give the group extra damage rather than sacrifice personal DPS.

The fact that it counts as a projectile and adheres to the projectile spammable DPS threshold I greatly dislike. It also doesn't proc Selene well, but Domihaus is a good substitute.

ke.sardenb14_ESO

I'd actually be happy if Stonegiant was just the stomp, granted I'd want the channel time removed. It is a pretty solid 360 hit, it is just disappointing when you then move to chucking rocks. If I could create a new spammable I'd make it some that worked like templar jabs, since dk should be the dot class.

ArcVelarian

oscarovegren wrote: »

Give us poison stam whip FFS

This. I don't care if they have to add a 3rd morph to accomplish it.

CageKnight

I feel like Stone Giant would be great as a Blastbones/Scorch-esque skill, where it's just a fire and forget thing you weave between 2 or 3 skills in your rotation, I would love to see that on top of poison whip

DreadDaedroth

Bring the first iteration of stone fist back, let it be a range stun.
Just update the animation