PvP and PvE skill lines

Dzadzey

It's real simple...There should be no skillllines available to PvP that aren't readily available to PvE players who have neither the time not inclination to engage in PvP. "But if we don't have skills lines obtainable ONLY through PvP, then no one will play!" the PvP camp whines. Ther are ALWAYS people who will want to go the PvP route. If it's not folks find it unpalatable, is says more about the ability (or inability) of ZOS to provide a balanced and coherent PvP format.

Mindcr0w

It's real simple...There should be no skillllines available to PvE that aren't readily available to PvP players who have neither the time not inclination to engage in PvE.

AinSoph

As a side note, they really need to develop the World skill line because for some reason they left in a passive that does 2k damage on a 2 MINUTE cooldown and a free revive every...hour 6 years into the game's lifetime. Any reasonable person could see that this skill line is the perfect place to put both Rapids and Vigor while also putting in new skills for Assault.

Thechuckage

Rather have skills behave differently in PvE vs PvP. Balance each separately and stop hosing one side for the other.

Bucky_13

Nah. In that case, it would have to be the same way for PvP players wanting to avoid PvE. Race against time for example is locked behind some of the most tedious PvE content but is an amazing PvP skill. And then we have fighters guild and images guild skills and so on.

Still think siege shield should be swapped for Rapids to give all players access to Vigor + Rapids within 5 minutes of entering Cyro however, assuming they do a simple quest. Which shouldn't be an issue for PvE players.

VaranisArano

To be consistent, no one should ever have to do content they have neither the time nor inclination to do in order to get the skills, gear, and other rewards locked behind said content.

ZOS, if you're listening, I would like everything I would normally unlock via gameplay instantly unlocked on all my new characters for free, please!


OP, at some point you'll come to terms with idea that the game devs at ZOS expect you to play ALL of the game if you want ALL of the rewards.

Parasaurolophus

VaranisArano wrote: »

To be consistent, no one should ever have to do content they have neither the time nor inclination to do in order to get the skills, gear, and other rewards locked behind said content.

ZOS, if you're listening, I would like everything I would normally unlock via gameplay instantly unlocked on all my new characters for free, please!


OP, at some point you'll come to terms with idea that the game devs at ZOS expect you to play ALL of the game if you want ALL of the rewards.

I do not agree. I have a very unpopular opinion on this matter. But I don't think there is a need to differentiate the player base so much. A fragmented community is bad. I have several top PVE achievements, and 50 ranks, and I furnished the house. I like this game entirely and I don't understand people who only play in their own sandbox. The game, in any case, has priority directions and will not be able to give deep gameplay in every aspect. Therefore, there is nothing wrong if at some points pve and pvp will intersect.

Renegader

lol

relentless_turnip

I do not enjoy PVE... I hate dungeons especially. Though I actually enjoy the challenge of levelling a character from 1-50 and leveling all skill lines, gathering skyshards etc... I do not enjoy the process, but enjoy having a goal and working to it. This is core to an mmo and everyone will inevitably have to do content they don't like to achieve their end goal. Most understand this is how it is, a few complain about it. If you find yourself in the latter it may be time for a change of game.

I can't remember how many times I have done the same dungeon to get the sets or even one piece(bsw inferno staff *** you). Imagine if I could have spent 3 hours in COA and got what I wanted...

Parasaurolophus

relentless_turnip wrote: »

I do not enjoy PVE... I hate dungeons especially. Though I actually enjoy the challenge of levelling a character from 1-50 and leveling all skill lines, gathering skyshards etc... I do not enjoy the process, but enjoy having a goal and working to it. This is core to an mmo and everyone will inevitably have to do content they don't like to achieve their end goal. Most understand this is how it is, a few complain about it. If you find yourself in the latter it may be time for a change of game.

I can't remember how many times I have done the same dungeon to get the sets or even one piece(bsw inferno staff *** you). Imagine if I could have spent 3 hours in COA and got what I wanted...

But this is generally not a PVE problem. This is the RNG problem.

VaranisArano

BrownChicken wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

To be consistent, no one should ever have to do content they have neither the time nor inclination to do in order to get the skills, gear, and other rewards locked behind said content.

ZOS, if you're listening, I would like everything I would normally unlock via gameplay instantly unlocked on all my new characters for free, please!


OP, at some point you'll come to terms with idea that the game devs at ZOS expect you to play ALL of the game if you want ALL of the rewards.

I do not agree. I have a very unpopular opinion on this matter. But I don't think there is a need to differentiate the player base so much. A fragmented community is bad. I have several top PVE achievements, and 50 ranks, and I furnished the house. I like this game entirely and I don't understand people who only play in their own sandbox. The game, in any case, has priority directions and will not be able to give deep gameplay in every aspect. Therefore, there is nothing wrong if at some points pve and pvp will intersect.

Perhaps my sarcasm was not entirely clear. My bad.. I'm in favor of ZOS' design that expects players to get out of their comfort zone if they want all the rewards ESO has to offer.

I was once a PVE-only player, but because ZOS expects me to play ALL the game to get ALL the rewards, I eventually learned that I enjoy PVP as well. In my case, it was wanting the Master Angler achievement.

Not everyone likes PVP! I sure didn't when I first started. For some, no amount of experience will make them like PVP (or group dungeons, or trials, or whatever other content they want to avoid.) Its their choice about whether they want the reward enough to attempt the content to get it.

In any case, what's the alternative? When we are logically consistent, instead of just begging for ways to avoid PVP specifically, we wind up in a situation where various people want to avoid all the content they don't like while still getting the rewards.

And lest this seem like silly "slippery slope" handwringng, we've also seen similar posts before about:
Events that require group content for completion, like the Undaunted, Witches Festival, and Imperial City
Paladin-style roleplayers complaining about the Dark Brotherhood/Thieves Guild events
Housing players complaining when furnishings are awarded for vet trials
ESO requiring players to do dungeons, trials, and PVP if they want to explore or experience all the stories

There are a lot of players who want rewards for content that they had neither the time nor inclination to do. Its not limited just to PVE players who don't want to PVP.

erio

Heres a thought. if you dont do something, you shouldnt get something.
We have to farm your dungeons and trials. Should we double the queue times by not doing them, and then demand that pvp rewards pve gear?

relentless_turnip

BrownChicken wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

I do not enjoy PVE... I hate dungeons especially. Though I actually enjoy the challenge of levelling a character from 1-50 and leveling all skill lines, gathering skyshards etc... I do not enjoy the process, but enjoy having a goal and working to it. This is core to an mmo and everyone will inevitably have to do content they don't like to achieve their end goal. Most understand this is how it is, a few complain about it. If you find yourself in the latter it may be time for a change of game.

I can't remember how many times I have done the same dungeon to get the sets or even one piece(bsw inferno staff *** you). Imagine if I could have spent 3 hours in COA and got what I wanted...

But this is generally not a PVE problem. This is the RNG problem.

It isn't... My point is clear, you need to do a lot of PVE to play PvP and very little PvP to PVE. The balance is disproportionate and yet threads like this are made arguing the opposite.

AlnilamE

Dzadzey wrote: »

It's real simple...There should be no skillllines available to PvP that aren't readily available to PvE players who have neither the time not inclination to engage in PvP. "But if we don't have skills lines obtainable ONLY through PvP, then no one will play!" the PvP camp whines. Ther are ALWAYS people who will want to go the PvP route. If it's not folks find it unpalatable, is says more about the ability (or inability) of ZOS to provide a balanced and coherent PvP format.

If you don't want to PvP, then don't. You'll be fine.

Hurbster

AlnilamE wrote: »

Dzadzey wrote: »

It's real simple...There should be no skillllines available to PvP that aren't readily available to PvE players who have neither the time not inclination to engage in PvP. "But if we don't have skills lines obtainable ONLY through PvP, then no one will play!" the PvP camp whines. Ther are ALWAYS people who will want to go the PvP route. If it's not folks find it unpalatable, is says more about the ability (or inability) of ZOS to provide a balanced and coherent PvP format.

If you don't want to PvP, then don't. You'll be fine.

You'll just be slower than everyone else. But your mag character will be able to access that...awesome...stam...heal. So yay.

Renegader

Hurbster wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

Dzadzey wrote: »

It's real simple...There should be no skillllines available to PvP that aren't readily available to PvE players who have neither the time not inclination to engage in PvP. "But if we don't have skills lines obtainable ONLY through PvP, then no one will play!" the PvP camp whines. Ther are ALWAYS people who will want to go the PvP route. If it's not folks find it unpalatable, is says more about the ability (or inability) of ZOS to provide a balanced and coherent PvP format.

If you don't want to PvP, then don't. You'll be fine.

You'll just be slower than everyone else. But your mag character will be able to access that...awesome...stam...heal. So yay.

lol not again please. you guys had your fair share of complaining in the already closed thread. this change is a huge quality of life improvement for stam, and having rapids is absolutely no must have. sure its kinda bad to be slow, but vigor is a must have.

kargen27

MMOs need three things to survive. New content, players repeating content and players participating in a variety of content.

Some of the best gear for PvP is locked behind PvE and RNG for a reason. It is healthy for the long term. Same reason some skills good for PvE are locked behind PvP. Good for the long term health of the game.

UGotBenched91

All the needed PvP skills just take around 2- 3 hours of battle grounds. This is nothing compared to grinding the pve skills like psjic skill lines that PvP players need to do for pve skills.

kargen27

UGotBenched91 wrote: »

All the needed PvP skills just take around 2- 3 hours of battle grounds. This is nothing compared to grinding the pve skills like psjic skill lines that PvP players need to do for pve skills.

Throw in sets and that is a lot of PvE time for the PvP crowd.

Parasaurolophus

UGotBenched91 wrote: »

All the needed PvP skills just take around 2- 3 hours of battle grounds. This is nothing compared to grinding the pve skills like psjic skill lines that PvP players need to do for pve skills.

Excuse me, but running around the location in search of rifts can hardly be called PVE.

relentless_turnip

BrownChicken wrote: »

UGotBenched91 wrote: »

All the needed PvP skills just take around 2- 3 hours of battle grounds. This is nothing compared to grinding the pve skills like psjic skill lines that PvP players need to do for pve skills.

Excuse me, but running around the location in search of rifts can hardly be called PVE.

It is very literally the player Vs environment... What would you call it?

Starlock

Dzadzey wrote: »

It's real simple...There should be no skillllines available to PvP that aren't readily available to PvE players who have neither the time not inclination to engage in PvP. "But if we don't have skills lines obtainable ONLY through PvP, then no one will play!" the PvP camp whines. Ther are ALWAYS people who will want to go the PvP route. If it's not folks find it unpalatable, is says more about the ability (or inability) of ZOS to provide a balanced and coherent PvP format.

Eh, that's not really the problem.

The problem is making skills that have PvE functionality part of a PvP skill line. That doesn't make sense from a game design standpoint and it's not as if there weren't options to tailor all of these skills to be explicitly PvP in orientation. Then again, this was probably part of their overall design philosophy of not separating PvP from PvE, which has been... well, not a good game design idea either quite frankly. If they'd gone the route of having entirely separate skill/character templates for PvP and not allowing PvE characters in Cyrodill at all, I'm sure that'd do wonders for PvP performance. And I'd probably actually play PvP if they did that.

Viewsfrom6ix

BrownChicken wrote: »

UGotBenched91 wrote: »

All the needed PvP skills just take around 2- 3 hours of battle grounds. This is nothing compared to grinding the pve skills like psjic skill lines that PvP players need to do for pve skills.

Excuse me, but running around the location in search of rifts can hardly be called PVE.

That is the definition of PvE...

cyclonus11

PVE is just PVP without the ganks

CSose

AinSoph wrote: »

As a side note, they really need to develop the World skill line because for some reason they left in a passive that does 2k damage on a 2 MINUTE cooldown and a free revive every...hour 6 years into the game's lifetime. Any reasonable person could see that this skill line is the perfect place to put both Rapids and Vigor while also putting in new skills for Assault.

Something along these lines seems like a really good idea to me. All toons need rapids for exploring the world, and stam toons need a heal option more readily obtainable.

Greasytengu

CSose wrote: »

AinSoph wrote: »

As a side note, they really need to develop the World skill line because for some reason they left in a passive that does 2k damage on a 2 MINUTE cooldown and a free revive every...hour 6 years into the game's lifetime. Any reasonable person could see that this skill line is the perfect place to put both Rapids and Vigor while also putting in new skills for Assault.

Something along these lines seems like a really good idea to me. All toons need rapids for exploring the world, and stam toons need a heal option more readily obtainable.

Yeah replace rapids with some counter CC ability for the alliance war skill line and put rapids somewhere more accessible.

Everyone wins!

Parasaurolophus

relentless_turnip wrote: »

BrownChicken wrote: »

UGotBenched91 wrote: »

All the needed PvP skills just take around 2- 3 hours of battle grounds. This is nothing compared to grinding the pve skills like psjic skill lines that PvP players need to do for pve skills.

Excuse me, but running around the location in search of rifts can hardly be called PVE.

It is very literally the player Vs environment... What would you call it?

For me, pve is the about dungeons and trials progression, the gain of achievements. Overland and questing are so easy and casual that they stand apart from real pve and pvp.

SgtNuttzmeg

There are plenty of really good PvP skills in the undaunted skill line, I don't have a problem with them being their and I don't have a problem with PVE skills in PvP content. In a perfect world I could gear my PvP characters from PvP content the same vice versa but the game is designed to encourage players to experience all kinds of content. It really isn't that hard to level undaunted and it's not really hard to level alliance war.

kargen27

CSose wrote: »

AinSoph wrote: »

As a side note, they really need to develop the World skill line because for some reason they left in a passive that does 2k damage on a 2 MINUTE cooldown and a free revive every...hour 6 years into the game's lifetime. Any reasonable person could see that this skill line is the perfect place to put both Rapids and Vigor while also putting in new skills for Assault.

Something along these lines seems like a really good idea to me. All toons need rapids for exploring the world, and stam toons need a heal option more readily obtainable.

No, they want rapids. I have rapids available for all my characters and only use it for Cyrodiil. I remember form other threads quite a few other players mentioning they also do not use rapids outside of PvP.

LannStone

For a long time I ruled out resolving vigor for my stamina characters because I didn't want to do PVP. I finally learned how easy it is to go into Cyrodiil and get the skills you need while entirely avoiding PVP players. In other words, it's not hard to get the Alliance War skills you need without engaging in any PVP. If you don't like PVP, just avoid other players when you're in Cyrodiil. It's not hard, and it's actually a pretty fun change of pace - and those transmute crystals from Alliance Points are pretty handy to have nowadays.
Should ZOS make the skills available without going into Cyrodiil? I don't know - maybe the artists want to encourage everyone to take the time to check out how they created the land there - it's actually pretty and I'm glad I got to see it.
And I think I'm benefiting from getting a firsthand look at what the alliance war and AP farming is all about, which I wouldn't have otherwise.

Cirantille

The amount of PvE I have to go through just so I can PvP...