Why does PVP seem to be the black sheep of ESO?

UGotBenched91

It seems any mention of PVP outside of specific forums is met with such dislike. Now, any topic is going to have people who like it or don't but I've never seen an MMO forum where even the mention of anything PVP related or a announcement of a PVP event is met with such disdain and anger.

So, why has the ESO community built this culture of PVP being toxic?

VaranisArano

My suspicion as a player who used to be PVE-only?

The Elder Scrolls Online has a substantial portion of its player base that comes from the single player RPG games in the TES series. Those games are pure PVE, single player games.

So unlike a lot of players who jump from MMO to MMO, many players on the TES side of the playerbase don't see PVP as a key part of "The Elder Scrolls" experience.

That makes it easy for them to complain when ZOS expects them to do PVP events, to complain when they have to PVP to experience quests or get various rewards, and to blame PVP when ZOS makes changes that deliberately impacted both PVE and PVP. It makes it easy for they to get angry when a player kills them in PvP and thus prevents them from experiencing what for them are more important aspects of TES games, like quests, exploration, cosmetics, etc. (Incidentally, we see a similar if lesser response from players who don't like group content and are annoyed that they can't get everything by playing ESO like its a singleplayer game.)


Or perhaps they just don't like to PVP. I used to be that type of player. My SO is that type of player. That's okay! Not everyone likes PVP!


And also, you know, some PVP players can be pretty toxic.

UGotBenched91

Well, yeah you make a strong point. Ha I’ve been lucky enough to only have met one toxic person in ESO PvP. She was guild leader and yelling at people for not being geared right. As you can imagine, I left guild. Otherwise some of the most chill people I’ve met are PVP. PVE has been a mixture.

Belegnole

I love the concept of how pvp is done in ESO. Unfortunately it's rather broken, which can be a bit frustrating. Add to that a large group of players that have a tendency to behave like rabid chihuahuas and you get a situation that many find distasteful.

El_Barbas

Hi everyone,
so i can just tell of my point of view. But i fell in love with ESO PVP. I mean its very hard to get but as you get used to it, its so much fun.
Yes you re right, can be very frustrated and even if you are getting better, the next day you only lose.

But I think, if you practice it alot, you can have the best time in game, instead of going for the same dungeon over and over again.

If you are interested you re welcome to check out my Channel, i started uploading PvP Content (Beginner right now) its kind of a documentary how i m getting better (thats what i hope xD)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4G2Nu9dTmQ

I started the game 3 months ago on PC and because of Corona I could spend a lot of time on it
I mainly deal with PvP video-wise, but will dive into PvE as well. My skill level is still expandable in any case.

I would be happy if you drop by and give me a chance and if - yes please only if - you like it, give me a subscription, or tell me what you do not like I am very grateful for feedback.

For the rest, I wish you all a nice day and thank you for reading.

Greetings Pakko

Grimlok_S

Like everything else in this game, PvP has a steep learning curve. Tons of PvE players have PTSD from past Mid-year Mayhem events.

As with other events, they expect easy/AFKable daily quests with great rewards attached for no risk.
While there are easy/AFK quests in cyrodiil, there is certainly risk.

Mid-year mayhem is a ganker's paradise. Hundreds of inexperienced players flock to the towns for quest rewards, don't keep their buffs up, don't know how to heal themselves, don't use CC effectively, you name it. And anyone looking for easy AP knows exactly where to go..

MYM is the first and last stop into Cyrodiil for a lot of players.

erio

Because pve players hate it when zos tries to balance the pvp and it messes with their crap

SgtNuttzmeg

I think it's two parts I think it's when the PVP balance changes effect PVE and the skill gap that currently exists in PVP. There are players currently that have been PVPing for years and they just are significantly more skilled. Since ZOS lacks content to properly facilitate a tradition into PVP alot of players get lost and are overwhelmed.

Alot of the recent changes to buffs/debuffs and the addition of base crit resist have helped to combat this but even then most PVErs go into a PVP instance wearing the same gear they wear for questing and use the same skills. What would be nice is if they took the skill advisor and made a version for PVP. Let's say a character queued for the first time into a PVP instance they would have it pop up and it would provide basic suggestions based on their class. It would have a stamina, magicka and healer option. It would suggest some basic sets, a minimum recommended health pool, a suggestion of HOTs and Heals.

Minyassa

I can only tell you why I personally have the impression that the majority of the PvP community is awful. It's because 1. I have never had someone hate whisper me in PvE but once, and that was a person who hate-whispered me because I had duels autodeclined. Every hate whisper I've ever gotten in this game has been in Cyrodiil. 2. I have not so far had to totally redo a build I liked because something was upsetting the balance in PvE. It's *always* because a bunch of people are griping about the trouble they're having killing some other bunch of people who are using or doing something they aren't willing to adjust to, so PvE has to suffer because of it. And most importantly, 3. I've never been teabagged by an NPC that killed me, and called names because I wasn't enough of a challenge while I was going about my personal business, like my entire existence should revolve around giving some stranger a fun time instead of playing the game for my own enjoyment.

The whole teabagging debate has really soured me on the PvP community too. The argument that it's not meant to be degrading is utterly ridiculous. It is absolutely meant to insult, degrade, and belittle another player, and contrary to popular claim, it's not usually earned. It's something bullies do to make themselves feel better at another person's expense, and it is impossible to do in PvE. So choosing to engage in PvP becomes choosing to expose oneself to bullies.

I've had two positive experiences in a PvP area and they both involved someone just ignoring me and going about their business. Nothing overtly good or fun, just *not being harassed*. Twice, in several years of having to go there to do achievements or earn AP or whatever.

I have quite a few friends whose experiences with PvP echo my own. This is not an uncommon thing. I may be unlucky but I'm not unlucky alone, and talking to others who have had just as bad a time with the PvP community as I have just deepens the impression.

Fawn4287

Competitive multiplayer gaming is toxic, try playing an FPS or or anything with a pro scene and see how bad the cheating and toxicity is there.

theCampeR_

PVP in this game is one of the most underrated aspects in my opinion. It's great, It's large scale (what it used to be) and has some great mechanics attached to it. What has happened to PVP is constant negligence and lack of content or changes for years. On top of that, performance deterioration made PVP somewhat frustrating and on course to being unplayable during better part of the night. Somehow this has become the norm for the developers and thus making PVP community a bitter one over the years. You talk about PVP and it's all about constant complaining, whining and quitting threads in forums. and can we blame these players? All of these whining has good reasoning behind them as well.

In short, what could have been such a blissful PVP experience (and one could say, it used to be back then) is brought down to be a stale, frustrating experience for most. The PVP community in forums is toxic, angry and condescending. and one could only blame all of this on one party. Take a guess.

UGotBenched91

Hmm I’ve honestly not experienced some of what I’m reading. On Xbox I had met some really great people through PvP. They were always kind and fun to play with. I’ve met a lot more toxic people through PVE then PVP by far. In both the forum and game.

Joy_Division

Minyassa wrote: »

I can only tell you why I personally have the impression that the majority of the PvP community is awful. It's because 1. I have never had someone hate whisper me in PvE but once, and that was a person who hate-whispered me because I had duels autodeclined. Every hate whisper I've ever gotten in this game has been in Cyrodiil. 2. I have not so far had to totally redo a build I liked because something was upsetting the balance in PvE. It's *always* because a bunch of people are griping about the trouble they're having killing some other bunch of people who are using or doing something they aren't willing to adjust to, so PvE has to suffer because of it. And most importantly, 3. I've never been teabagged by an NPC that killed me, and called names because I wasn't enough of a challenge while I was going about my personal business, like my entire existence should revolve around giving some stranger a fun time instead of playing the game for my own enjoyment.

The whole teabagging debate has really soured me on the PvP community too. The argument that it's not meant to be degrading is utterly ridiculous. It is absolutely meant to insult, degrade, and belittle another player, and contrary to popular claim, it's not usually earned. It's something bullies do to make themselves feel better at another person's expense, and it is impossible to do in PvE. So choosing to engage in PvP becomes choosing to expose oneself to bullies.

I've had two positive experiences in a PvP area and they both involved someone just ignoring me and going about their business. Nothing overtly good or fun, just *not being harassed*. Twice, in several years of having to go there to do achievements or earn AP or whatever.

I have quite a few friends whose experiences with PvP echo my own. This is not an uncommon thing. I may be unlucky but I'm not unlucky alone, and talking to others who have had just as bad a time with the PvP community as I have just deepens the impression.

I don;t doubt you're experiences.

But I will say this: people are people. 10,000 years ago near Lake Turkana in Kenya, 27 people suffered violet deaths at the hands of their fellow humans before the supposed corrupting influences of civilization (property, institutions, governments, religions, money, etc.) led humanity astray from their supposedly peaceful, soul fulfilling life as migratory hunter-gatherers. We all share the heritage of those events at Lake Turkana. Not just the people who PvP.

I've been in enough PvE groups with PuGs to witness the toxicity directed by bullies, braggarts, and just mean people towards others, usually the less experienced or less skilled being prime targets. Often it is hidden, I'll get a whisper, "the tank %$@! sucks $%@!, vote to kick &$@%! now." And I used to be in a fairly competitive Trials guild, where people got into arguments and said awful things over comms because of stupid things like which set combination did more DPS and whether or not the raid lead had the right to dictate how the other 11 could play. So when I read the posts on these forums about players sharing their experiences of either getting kicked from groups without explanation or the many threads that pop up about harassments, bullying, and other frustrations with PvE experiences (PuGing in the group and guild drama seem to be the two most common), I totally believe it.

Now consider in PvE, this sort of behavior happens when people are on the same team. They're not even in direct competition with each other. Number of hate whispers I ever got from someone in my own faction in seven years of PvPing: 2. One because they mistakenly believed I failed to rez them properly (if a player you rez does not accept, you're next rez auto fails. Another because they were indignant I was friends with the GM of a guild on another faction. So I don;t think the PvE community is somehow better, it's just that circumstances mean that behavior isn't exhibited as often. The people you PvE with are the same people who t-bag you in Cyrodiil.

Now, that may be what you are trying to say, but please do say that. It's not so much the "PvP community" is awful. Rather, the nature of PvP and its direct competition with other players brings out the awful behavior that is latent in the ESO community.

StarOfElyon

Yeah people are toxic in both PVP and PVE. Even on the forums people can be buttholes. I wouldn't blame ZOS devs if they never bothered to read them.

Thogard

PvP isn’t as profitable for ZOS and the server space is disproportionately larger than for PvE

renne

Minyassa wrote: »

And most importantly, 3. I've never been teabagged by an NPC that killed me, and called names because I wasn't enough of a challenge while I was going about my personal business, like my entire existence should revolve around giving some stranger a fun time instead of playing the game for my own enjoyment.

The whole teabagging debate has really soured me on the PvP community too. The argument that it's not meant to be degrading is utterly ridiculous. It is absolutely meant to insult, degrade, and belittle another player, and contrary to popular claim, it's not usually earned.

I literally had some absolute rando come along and teabag me while I was waiting to see if one of the towns was going to flip or stay my faction this weekend. They didn't kill me and weren't involved in killing me. They weren't even part of the faction that killed me.

...So I messaged them to ask if they knew that teabagging would get their account banned, and they were lucky it was me they did it to because I was nice and I wouldn't send the clip to ZoS, but the next person mightn't be so nice about it.

UGotBenched91

Wait... tbagging is a bannable offense? Ugh too far my friends too far. There’s a lot worse going on in the world than someone’s virtual character squatting on your deceased virtual character.

renne

UGotBenched91 wrote: »

Wait... tbagging is a bannable offense? Ugh too far my friends too far. There’s a lot worse going on in the world than someone’s virtual character squatting on your deceased virtual character.

You do know what teabagging is, right? While all you can do in game is squat on someone's character, it actually represents much more than that otherwise people wouldn't do it as a taunt or an insult.

And you do also know people can care about multiple things at the same time, right? Like the "lot worse going on in the world" AND someone deliberately being degrading to you in a video game, right? Most humans have great capacity for multitasking when it comes to caring about things.

Like I said, I wouldn't report them for it - unless they did more to deserve it. But I still don't like it when absolute strangers do it, because they're not doing it for a laugh with you (unlike when my friends and I do it to each other, because we're usually on voice laughing about it), they're doing it to be a [word that would absolutely get edited out by Connor].

It's real easy to not teabag an absolute stranger, even after you killed them. It's not necessary behaviour.

kaithuzar

You know..
I just want to get it off my chest that I’m sick & tired of hearing people complain about things such as “hate whispers”.
It’s like, have you never been yelled at?
Have you never had someone say something verbally bad to you?
Seriously the care-bear-ism needs to stop. It’s an adult game with an adult rating!
This game, unlike in real life verbal communication, allows you to mute/block someone. You NEVER have to hear from them again!

Secondly, saying something out of anger, it’s a HUMAN emotion, you can’t say “oh I’m only going to allow my body only positive emotions”! We’re not robots and you have to take the good with the bad that’s the world; deal with it.

Thirdly, are the people complaining about hate whispers the most casual players ever, who have never been in a hard-core PVE dungeon or raid?
I’ve played since Beta and I have been in plenty of groups and guilds where the leaders are literally yelling if not screaming about mechanics. So to try and say PVE guilds don’t talk hatefully or don’t express negative emotions is a bold face lie. So don’t try to act like one style of player is more holy than another.

Lastly, in most circumstances I am arguing that the anger is fleeting, of the moment, and quickly passing. Just telling someone I’m having a bad day too bro, or relating by saying yeah man the desyncs in this game are terrible, is often enough that they’ll calm down and be like my bad.

I for one am not looking to judge people based on other peoples experiences with them. Just the same I’m not looking to judge people based on one bad experience with them either. And with this rant I emplore the community to have some empathy rather than crying about the fact that sometimes people actually show emotions.

VaranisArano

UGotBenched91 wrote: »

Wait... tbagging is a bannable offense? Ugh too far my friends too far. There’s a lot worse going on in the world than someone’s virtual character squatting on your deceased virtual character.

The last official word is from this thread, where Gina clarifies some of the questions about the TOS surrounding harassment.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/546727/was-it-ever-confirmed-if-tea-bagging-is-against-tos-now/

First Source:


Gina confirmed this is a later post, saying "As with many things in-game, context is very important. The act of standing and squatting over another NPC or character to teabag them can be considered a form of harassment which can be a violation of the Terms of Service (ToS). As with all forms of harassment, if a player asks you to stop a behavior, you need to stop. If you continue to teabag someone that asks you to stop, that is a violation of the ToS and may lead to your account being suspended or even permanently banned. Hope this helps clear things up."

kaithuzar

Personally I wouldn’t wanna fight anyone who wouldn’t teabag me, I wear it as a badge of honor.