Why does ZOS hate pvp healers so much?

hexentb16_ESO

So I've been playing ESO since PC beta. From then until a week ago I had never made a serious healer character.

Figured it was about time I did so I made a pvp healer. After a while I realized ZOS hates pvp healers. I mean, they must. Healing and damage shields are reduced. Groups are smaller. AND we can't heal anyone outside of our groups.

If I knew ZOS hated pvp healers so much I wouldn't have wasted all that time and gold making one. I would have just made another OP ball killer tank.

Edit.
Honestly, if I could just heal people out side of my group I wouldn't mind the other two handicaps.

Joinovikova

hexentb16_ESO wrote: »

So I've been playing ESO since PC beta. From then until a week ago I had never made a serious healer character.

Figured it was about time I did so I made a pvp healer. After a while I realized ZOS hates pvp healers. I mean, they must. Healing and damage shields are reduced. Groups are smaller. AND we can't heal anyone outside of our groups.

If I knew ZOS hated pvp healers so much I wouldn't have wasted all that time and gold making one. I would have just made another OP ball killer tank.

Edit.
Honestly, if I could just heal people out side of my group I wouldn't mind the other two handicaps.

they hate pvp generally.. that reaason they make this game focused on one button spam high healt tank with proc sets.. WW proce sets with stupid high heal and the biggest record allow mist form at zero cost for some clasess.. so proc sets, decemnt stat dmg . and turn on immortality..

Why u want to have healers in pvp.?

none of above meta options simply do not need healerso why play healer? if u already cant be killed.. and when peole will fully change on ths meta the pvp will be Greta approved noone will ever die ...


but to be honest... healer is not needed also for most of pve content at least in most of vet dunegoens is better to have fake heal dps..

yy healers in this game have hard time ....

ThePedge

I don't get the hardship, for all other content healers heal their group. Why can't you just heal your group in PvP.

Greasytengu

ThePedge wrote: »

I don't get the hardship, for all other content healers heal their group. Why can't you just heal your group in PvP.

for PVE you only need to heal the other people in your party/raid, but in PVP your success depends on the faction's success as a whole. If you can't heal other members of your faction, then you cannot contribute to the faction's success.

No other role in the game is dependent on actually being in a group in order to contribute. DPS and Tanks can just follow along with the zerg ungrouped without any restrictions.

ThePedge

Greasytengu wrote: »

ThePedge wrote: »

I don't get the hardship, for all other content healers heal their group. Why can't you just heal your group in PvP.

for PVE you only need to heal the other people in your party/raid, but in PVP your success depends on the faction's success as a whole. If you can't heal other members of your faction, then you cannot contribute to the faction's success.

No other role in the game is dependent on actually being in a group in order to contribute. DPS and Tanks can just follow along with the zerg ungrouped without any restrictions.

You can heal other members of your faction, they're the only ones you can group with.

You can contribute, much more than before, because now if you have a healer in your group you know they are going to heal you and not someone else. Which means you can be much more effective as a Tank and DD.

Greasytengu

ThePedge wrote: »

Greasytengu wrote: »

ThePedge wrote: »

I don't get the hardship, for all other content healers heal their group. Why can't you just heal your group in PvP.

for PVE you only need to heal the other people in your party/raid, but in PVP your success depends on the faction's success as a whole. If you can't heal other members of your faction, then you cannot contribute to the faction's success.

No other role in the game is dependent on actually being in a group in order to contribute. DPS and Tanks can just follow along with the zerg ungrouped without any restrictions.

You can heal other members of your faction, they're the only ones you can group with.

You can contribute, much more than before, because now if you have a healer in your group you know they are going to heal you and not someone else. Which means you can be much more effective as a Tank and DD.

Well that assumes you can even get a group to begin with. but aside from that point, all DPS and Tanks do not have to be in a group, why only healers? Cyro is about your faction's success so you have to be able to help your entire faction, not just the 11 people in your group.

If im in a group and there is some people not in my group doing their part with siege weapons, I cant help them stay alive through enemy countersiege! Despite not being in my group, this person is just as critical to the faction's success as the people in my group but I cannot aide them other than reviving them after they die. How is that ok?

If my group is fighting a faction stack alongside another group or some pugs and one of them dies and procs Vicious Death, We all still take damage. I could have healed them and prevented VD from proccing at all, but I cannot heal outside of my group. How is that ok?

I am not contributing more than I was before. This is a faction vs faction game mode not GvG!

VaranisArano

ThePedge wrote: »

I don't get the hardship, for all other content healers heal their group. Why can't you just heal your group in PvP.

If you want to draw an equivalence with PVE, let's do it properly.

PVP healers lost the ability to heal more than a limited amount of the players fighting in the same battle as them. Most large fights in Cyrodiil are considerably larger than a 12 v 12, so PVP healers cannot heal everyone on their side any longer like they used to be able to.

So to make that an equivalent nerf, let's limit dungeon healers to only healing 2 players at a time. Limit Trial healers to only healing 6 players at a time. Even that's not really equivalent, since PVP healers in large battles could heal far more than 24 players before, but we'll go with halvsies for the time being.

What happens?

Oh, your teammate took at big hit from the boss and you can't heal them? You have to stand there and watch a teammate die from mechanics because you can't heal them? That's terrible! Before the nerf, you could heal everyone in the same battle as you. You could have helped them!

I'm sure that PVE healers will line up to cheer on that change! /s


Now, we've already discussed this with you in several previous threads, so I'm not expecting you to admit that PVP healers have solid reasons to complain about no longer being able to heal everyone who's in the same battle as them. I realize that to the sort of player who views everyone else on their faction as nothing more than people who happen to be the same color and fighting the same enemy, watching thir "allies" die is no great hardship, since that sort of player tries to be self-sufficient, and wasn't intending to help them out anyway. It shouldn't be hard to figure out that healers and other support roles generally don't view their faction mates as expendable, instead preferring to, you know, support everyone in the same battle as them with heals and buffs as everyone works together for a common goal.

You don't have to agree with that - based on previous conversations, I expect you won't.

But don't be disingenuous by acting like PVP healers didn't take a massive nerf compared to the healing they used to be able to do.


(Oh, and don't complain about ball group dominance either. When you limit healing only to group members, 12-man ball groups are inevitably going to have way more healing than anyone else, especially PUGs who may or may not have picked up a healer from zone. There's another hardship, but one that gets passed on to other players primarily. Unless, of course, you like ball group dominance, in which case, carry on.)

butterrum222

The next step is to allow only self heals

ThePedge

VaranisArano wrote: »

ThePedge wrote: »

I don't get the hardship, for all other content healers heal their group. Why can't you just heal your group in PvP.

If you want to draw an equivalence with PVE, let's do it properly.

PVP healers lost the ability to heal more than a limited amount of the players fighting in the same battle as them. Most large fights in Cyrodiil are considerably larger than a 12 v 12, so PVP healers cannot heal everyone on their side any longer like they used to be able to.

So to make that an equivalent nerf, let's limit dungeon healers to only healing 2 players at a time. Limit Trial healers to only healing 6 players at a time. Even that's not really equivalent, since PVP healers in large battles could heal far more than 24 players before, but we'll go with halvsies for the time being.

What happens?

Oh, your teammate took at big hit from the boss and you can't heal them? You have to stand there and watch a teammate die from mechanics because you can't heal them? That's terrible! Before the nerf, you could heal everyone in the same battle as you. You could have helped them!

I'm sure that PVE healers will line up to cheer on that change! /s


Now, we've already discussed this with you in several previous threads, so I'm not expecting you to admit that PVP healers have solid reasons to complain about no longer being able to heal everyone who's in the same battle as them. I realize that to the sort of player who views everyone else on their faction as nothing more than people who happen to be the same color and fighting the same enemy, watching thir "allies" die is no great hardship, since that sort of player tries to be self-sufficient, and wasn't intending to help them out anyway. It shouldn't be hard to figure out that healers and other support roles generally don't view their faction mates as expendable, instead preferring to, you know, support everyone in the same battle as them with heals and buffs as everyone works together for a common goal.

You don't have to agree with that - based on previous conversations, I expect you won't.

But don't be disingenuous by acting like PVP healers didn't take a massive nerf compared to the healing they used to be able to do.


(Oh, and don't complain about ball group dominance either. When you limit healing only to group members, 12-man ball groups are inevitably going to have way more healing than anyone else, especially PUGs who may or may not have picked up a healer from zone. There's another hardship, but one that gets passed on to other players primarily. Unless, of course, you like ball group dominance, in which case, carry on.)

So in your fantasy realm, you would be in a dungeon in two groups? And the healer could only heal one other person? Is that what you're trying to cook up?

Of course healers took a nerf, well deserved. They were far too strong before

I don't like Ball Group dominance, they're a pain in the ass. I used to play in one but it got too laggy and honestly boring.
But at the same time I'm not going to say that they are a problem. 12 people decided to chose an efficient way to play, and get the best results. That's a congratulations.

I join groups and co-ordinate to get PvE titles, I don't join 11 pugs in craglorn then complain on forums that it's too hard. Does something need to change with how ball-groups and stacking healing abilities works? Yes.

Once that changes, maybe group-related changes in Cyrodiil can change again.

VaranisArano

ThePedge wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

ThePedge wrote: »

I don't get the hardship, for all other content healers heal their group. Why can't you just heal your group in PvP.

If you want to draw an equivalence with PVE, let's do it properly.

PVP healers lost the ability to heal more than a limited amount of the players fighting in the same battle as them. Most large fights in Cyrodiil are considerably larger than a 12 v 12, so PVP healers cannot heal everyone on their side any longer like they used to be able to.

So to make that an equivalent nerf, let's limit dungeon healers to only healing 2 players at a time. Limit Trial healers to only healing 6 players at a time. Even that's not really equivalent, since PVP healers in large battles could heal far more than 24 players before, but we'll go with halvsies for the time being.

What happens?

Oh, your teammate took at big hit from the boss and you can't heal them? You have to stand there and watch a teammate die from mechanics because you can't heal them? That's terrible! Before the nerf, you could heal everyone in the same battle as you. You could have helped them!

I'm sure that PVE healers will line up to cheer on that change! /s


Now, we've already discussed this with you in several previous threads, so I'm not expecting you to admit that PVP healers have solid reasons to complain about no longer being able to heal everyone who's in the same battle as them. I realize that to the sort of player who views everyone else on their faction as nothing more than people who happen to be the same color and fighting the same enemy, watching thir "allies" die is no great hardship, since that sort of player tries to be self-sufficient, and wasn't intending to help them out anyway. It shouldn't be hard to figure out that healers and other support roles generally don't view their faction mates as expendable, instead preferring to, you know, support everyone in the same battle as them with heals and buffs as everyone works together for a common goal.

You don't have to agree with that - based on previous conversations, I expect you won't.

But don't be disingenuous by acting like PVP healers didn't take a massive nerf compared to the healing they used to be able to do.


(Oh, and don't complain about ball group dominance either. When you limit healing only to group members, 12-man ball groups are inevitably going to have way more healing than anyone else, especially PUGs who may or may not have picked up a healer from zone. There's another hardship, but one that gets passed on to other players primarily. Unless, of course, you like ball group dominance, in which case, carry on.)

So in your fantasy realm, you would be in a dungeon in two groups? And the healer could only heal one other person? Is that what you're trying to cook up?

Of course healers took a nerf, well deserved. They were far too strong before

I don't like Ball Group dominance, they're a pain in the ass. I used to play in one but it got too laggy and honestly boring.
But at the same time I'm not going to say that they are a problem. 12 people decided to chose an efficient way to play, and get the best results. That's a congratulations.

I join groups and co-ordinate to get PvE titles, I don't join 11 pugs in craglorn then complain on forums that it's too hard. Does something need to change with how ball-groups and stacking healing abilities works? Yes.

Once that changes, maybe group-related changes in Cyrodiil can change again.

So...We've jumped from "I don't get the hardship" to
"Of course healers took a nerf, well deserved." And "Does something need to change with how ball-groups and stacking healing abilities works? Yes."

You spot that hardship yet?

You seem to understand it pretty well, actually. In fact, you think its a justified and necessary hardship.

Its still a hardship for the players who, unlike you, are negatively effected. It shouldn't be hard to understand that.

Duh, PVP healers who just took a massive nerf dropping from being able to heal anyone in their entire faction who was fighting in the same battle aren't going to be happy with just healing 11 other people like this is a PVE trial. What PVP healer likes watching allies they used to be able to heal last update die without being able to do anything?

Duh, PVP players who think there's a problem when ZOS exacerbates ball group dominance by handing them a massive advantage in healing over their now weakened enemies, aren't happy. Who likes seeing their groups weakened while the already dominant 12-man ball groups aren't touched?

I'm not saying anything we haven't discussed in previous threads, really. So I guess it just surprised me that after participating in several threads on the same topic with a number of PVP healers explaining their problems with the changes, you'd be here saying that you don't see the hardship and asking why we don't just heal our 12-man group in PVP. Well, we've been telling you why, if you'd care to listen.


(As for the PVE thing, well, you misrepresented the healing change. This isn't a matter of healing 12 players like this is a PVE trial. Its about healing all your allies in the same battle, in a faction-based PVP mode designed for large scale combat. In PVE and PVP both, healers used to be able to heal everyone in the same battle. PVE healers still can.

So when we look at what actually happened, you said you don't see the hardship for PVP healers to go from healing every ally on the battlefield to healing only a portion of them. There's no real PVE equivalent to that change...unless we nerfed PVE healers to only be able to heal a portion of their allies on the battlefield. And I really, really doubt you'd find many PVE healers in favor of that nerf. Again, the hardship that would result for the players who are negatively effected really isn't a mystery. And this post here suggests that you do, in fact, understand that.)

Gardarik

[Quoted post was removed]

Indeed, following the group IS a hardship for a casual healer in most cases. ESO is a game, and the point of the game is to give fun. I hope, we agree on this.

I a, a PhD student with limited time to play. I am not interested in PvE, so I do PvP. I log my healer or any other character with support capabilities and want some action here and now, to be able to help my alliance. Before the change I could just find the icon of crossed swords on the map, go there and participate in a massive PvP. Now, I have to look for a group (that takes ages), then follow the group for 10 minutes to spend another 10 minutes doing PvD. And according to your logic I should not have the right to heal anyone else except for my group bcs it is OP and the whole reason I made my healer is now null and void. Well, there goes fun playing as a healer. I do not want to waste my time on such gameplay so I bounce the game and waiting until the change gets reverted or not returning for good.

"Good riddance!" you might say, but the thing is that many filthy casuals like me did the same, decreasing the PvP population, hence the scale of PvP, hence the allure of PvP in MMORPG that advertises its PvP as "massive alliance clashes" and not the tug-of-war of a few 12-men parties on a huge map. Whole guilds left the game. Nowadays primetime in my timezone during which campaigns used to be locked now has 1-2 bars at best. Good changes for the game for sure. Funny thing - it did not improve performance that the change in question was supposed to improve.

One can say (and I have heard it before): join a guild or start a group yourself - the answer to that is simple: I don't want to! I don't want the game to force social interactions on me. I want to chill. Talking to people on discord after a whole day of talking during my work is not what I seek in a game that is supposed to be a leisure time. I am not looking for friends in ESO, I simply want gameplay. Gameplay that had been advertised before the change and taken away afterwards.

Many have pointed out the real culprits behind the performance and healers being "OP", namely stackable HoTs and buffs. Indeed, you could have a 12-men (and 24-men before) party with all members having stamina-based vigour and not needing healing altogether. Whoah, much balanced, so smart. They really nailed this issue by taking away cross-group healing. Performance can be improved by ZOS finally buying new hardware and sorting out their network bottlenecking (like Akamai giving + 50-70 ping for NA even if you live close to the server location).

But anyway, I know my points will be as usual discarded as those of some zerg-surfing healer who does not deserve fun bcs healer's fun of healing any your alliance is apparently OP despite having been a feature and a gameplay cornerstone of the game since beta. I do not care, tbh at this point. I left the game waiting for the reversal of the change and mentally accepted the waste of 1300+ hours invested in ESO. I hope the current PvP dominated by unkillable 12-ballgroups with little pugs for them to farm will be enjoyable for everyone.

Reaper_00

ThePedge wrote: »

[Quoted post was removed]

Yup and that pretty much sums up the problem. If ZOS nerfed self healing I'm sure most of you would be singing a different tune regarding this group healing only thing. But hey, it's also the easiest thing to agree with a change that has no actual effect on you.

Greasytengu

Reaper_00 wrote: »

ThePedge wrote: »

The "hardship" is you have to follow a group. Cry me a River.

Healer is already the easiest thing to play, and honestly you could use only purge and you're a god-tier healer as that's all you actually bring to the table that I can't sustain myself.

Yup and that pretty much sums up the problem. If ZOS nerfed self healing I'm sure most of you would be singing a different tune regarding this group healing only thing. But hey, it's also the easiest thing to agree with a change that has no actual effect on you.

Or if they made it so you could only earn AP while grouped.

Also the whole "Healer is already the easiest thing to play" thing, I would have to disagreee in a major way. DPS can be distilled down into walking forward while light attacking. DPS is so easy that tanks can do it by strapping on a few proc sets and blocking.

Qbiken

Greasytengu wrote: »

Reaper_00 wrote: »

ThePedge wrote: »

The "hardship" is you have to follow a group. Cry me a River.

Healer is already the easiest thing to play, and honestly you could use only purge and you're a god-tier healer as that's all you actually bring to the table that I can't sustain myself.

Yup and that pretty much sums up the problem. If ZOS nerfed self healing I'm sure most of you would be singing a different tune regarding this group healing only thing. But hey, it's also the easiest thing to agree with a change that has no actual effect on you.

Or if they made it so you could only earn AP while grouped.

Also the whole "Healer is already the easiest thing to play" thing, I would have to disagreee in a major way. DPS can be distilled down into walking forward while light attacking. DPS is so easy that tanks can do it by strapping on a few proc sets and blocking.

Playing support builds in PvP is by far the most rewarding for the least amount of effort you can play.

ThePedge

VaranisArano wrote: »

ThePedge wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

ThePedge wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

ThePedge wrote: »

I don't get the hardship, for all other content healers heal their group. Why can't you just heal your group in PvP.

If you want to draw an equivalence with PVE, let's do it properly.

PVP healers lost the ability to heal more than a limited amount of the players fighting in the same battle as them. Most large fights in Cyrodiil are considerably larger than a 12 v 12, so PVP healers cannot heal everyone on their side any longer like they used to be able to.

So to make that an equivalent nerf, let's limit dungeon healers to only healing 2 players at a time. Limit Trial healers to only healing 6 players at a time. Even that's not really equivalent, since PVP healers in large battles could heal far more than 24 players before, but we'll go with halvsies for the time being.

What happens?

Oh, your teammate took at big hit from the boss and you can't heal them? You have to stand there and watch a teammate die from mechanics because you can't heal them? That's terrible! Before the nerf, you could heal everyone in the same battle as you. You could have helped them!

I'm sure that PVE healers will line up to cheer on that change! /s


Now, we've already discussed this with you in several previous threads, so I'm not expecting you to admit that PVP healers have solid reasons to complain about no longer being able to heal everyone who's in the same battle as them. I realize that to the sort of player who views everyone else on their faction as nothing more than people who happen to be the same color and fighting the same enemy, watching thir "allies" die is no great hardship, since that sort of player tries to be self-sufficient, and wasn't intending to help them out anyway. It shouldn't be hard to figure out that healers and other support roles generally don't view their faction mates as expendable, instead preferring to, you know, support everyone in the same battle as them with heals and buffs as everyone works together for a common goal.

You don't have to agree with that - based on previous conversations, I expect you won't.

But don't be disingenuous by acting like PVP healers didn't take a massive nerf compared to the healing they used to be able to do.


(Oh, and don't complain about ball group dominance either. When you limit healing only to group members, 12-man ball groups are inevitably going to have way more healing than anyone else, especially PUGs who may or may not have picked up a healer from zone. There's another hardship, but one that gets passed on to other players primarily. Unless, of course, you like ball group dominance, in which case, carry on.)

So in your fantasy realm, you would be in a dungeon in two groups? And the healer could only heal one other person? Is that what you're trying to cook up?

Of course healers took a nerf, well deserved. They were far too strong before

I don't like Ball Group dominance, they're a pain in the ass. I used to play in one but it got too laggy and honestly boring.
But at the same time I'm not going to say that they are a problem. 12 people decided to chose an efficient way to play, and get the best results. That's a congratulations.

I join groups and co-ordinate to get PvE titles, I don't join 11 pugs in craglorn then complain on forums that it's too hard. Does something need to change with how ball-groups and stacking healing abilities works? Yes.

Once that changes, maybe group-related changes in Cyrodiil can change again.

So...We've jumped from "I don't get the hardship" to
"Of course healers took a nerf, well deserved." And "Does something need to change with how ball-groups and stacking healing abilities works? Yes."

You spot that hardship yet?

You seem to understand it pretty well, actually. In fact, you think its a justified and necessary hardship.

Its still a hardship for the players who, unlike you, are negatively effected. It shouldn't be hard to understand that.

Duh, PVP healers who just took a massive nerf dropping from being able to heal anyone in their entire faction who was fighting in the same battle aren't going to be happy with just healing 11 other people like this is a PVE trial. What PVP healer likes watching allies they used to be able to heal last update die without being able to do anything?

Duh, PVP players who think there's a problem when ZOS exacerbates ball group dominance by handing them a massive advantage in healing over their now weakened enemies, aren't happy. Who likes seeing their groups weakened while the already dominant 12-man ball groups aren't touched?

I'm not saying anything we haven't discussed in previous threads, really. So I guess it just surprised me that after participating in several threads on the same topic with a number of PVP healers explaining their problems with the changes, you'd be here saying that you don't see the hardship and asking why we don't just heal our 12-man group in PVP. Well, we've been telling you why, if you'd care to listen.


(As for the PVE thing, well, you misrepresented the healing change. This isn't a matter of healing 12 players like this is a PVE trial. Its about healing all your allies in the same battle, in a faction-based PVP mode designed for large scale combat. In PVE and PVP both, healers used to be able to heal everyone in the same battle. PVE healers still can.

So when we look at what actually happened, you said you don't see the hardship for PVP healers to go from healing every ally on the battlefield to healing only a portion of them. There's no real PVE equivalent to that change...unless we nerfed PVE healers to only be able to heal a portion of their allies on the battlefield. And I really, really doubt you'd find many PVE healers in favor of that nerf. Again, the hardship that would result for the players who are negatively effected really isn't a mystery. And this post here suggests that you do, in fact, understand that.)

[Quoted post was removed]

[Quoted post was removed]

[snip]

I'll say again, "solo" healer makes no sense as if you're alone then you are you healing? No one.
You're not solo, you're right next to a group of players on the same alliance. Join their group.

And yes, this change only benefits me and my friends as is raises the skill floor for PvP.

I believe fights shouldn't just be determined by sheer numbers. Healers should have to think about positioning and who they are healing, DDs should have to think about positioning and who can heal them. If I'm out of position in my group I died, that's my fault and means I need to improve.

[snip]

[Edited tor remove Baiting]

aetherial_heavenn

ThePedge wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

ThePedge wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

ThePedge wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

ThePedge wrote: »

I don't get the hardship, for all other content healers heal their group. Why can't you just heal your group in PvP.

If you want to draw an equivalence with PVE, let's do it properly.

PVP healers lost the ability to heal more than a limited amount of the players fighting in the same battle as them. Most large fights in Cyrodiil are considerably larger than a 12 v 12, so PVP healers cannot heal everyone on their side any longer like they used to be able to.

So to make that an equivalent nerf, let's limit dungeon healers to only healing 2 players at a time. Limit Trial healers to only healing 6 players at a time. Even that's not really equivalent, since PVP healers in large battles could heal far more than 24 players before, but we'll go with halvsies for the time being.

What happens?

Oh, your teammate took at big hit from the boss and you can't heal them? You have to stand there and watch a teammate die from mechanics because you can't heal them? That's terrible! Before the nerf, you could heal everyone in the same battle as you. You could have helped them!

I'm sure that PVE healers will line up to cheer on that change! /s


Now, we've already discussed this with you in several previous threads, so I'm not expecting you to admit that PVP healers have solid reasons to complain about no longer being able to heal everyone who's in the same battle as them. I realize that to the sort of player who views everyone else on their faction as nothing more than people who happen to be the same color and fighting the same enemy, watching thir "allies" die is no great hardship, since that sort of player tries to be self-sufficient, and wasn't intending to help them out anyway. It shouldn't be hard to figure out that healers and other support roles generally don't view their faction mates as expendable, instead preferring to, you know, support everyone in the same battle as them with heals and buffs as everyone works together for a common goal.

You don't have to agree with that - based on previous conversations, I expect you won't.

But don't be disingenuous by acting like PVP healers didn't take a massive nerf compared to the healing they used to be able to do.


(Oh, and don't complain about ball group dominance either. When you limit healing only to group members, 12-man ball groups are inevitably going to have way more healing than anyone else, especially PUGs who may or may not have picked up a healer from zone. There's another hardship, but one that gets passed on to other players primarily. Unless, of course, you like ball group dominance, in which case, carry on.)

So in your fantasy realm, you would be in a dungeon in two groups? And the healer could only heal one other person? Is that what you're trying to cook up?

Of course healers took a nerf, well deserved. They were far too strong before

I don't like Ball Group dominance, they're a pain in the ass. I used to play in one but it got too laggy and honestly boring.
But at the same time I'm not going to say that they are a problem. 12 people decided to chose an efficient way to play, and get the best results. That's a congratulations.

I join groups and co-ordinate to get PvE titles, I don't join 11 pugs in craglorn then complain on forums that it's too hard. Does something need to change with how ball-groups and stacking healing abilities works? Yes.

Once that changes, maybe group-related changes in Cyrodiil can change again.

So...We've jumped from "I don't get the hardship" to
"Of course healers took a nerf, well deserved." And "Does something need to change with how ball-groups and stacking healing abilities works? Yes."

You spot that hardship yet?

You seem to understand it pretty well, actually. In fact, you think its a justified and necessary hardship.

Its still a hardship for the players who, unlike you, are negatively effected. It shouldn't be hard to understand that.

Duh, PVP healers who just took a massive nerf dropping from being able to heal anyone in their entire faction who was fighting in the same battle aren't going to be happy with just healing 11 other people like this is a PVE trial. What PVP healer likes watching allies they used to be able to heal last update die without being able to do anything?

Duh, PVP players who think there's a problem when ZOS exacerbates ball group dominance by handing them a massive advantage in healing over their now weakened enemies, aren't happy. Who likes seeing their groups weakened while the already dominant 12-man ball groups aren't touched?

I'm not saying anything we haven't discussed in previous threads, really. So I guess it just surprised me that after participating in several threads on the same topic with a number of PVP healers explaining their problems with the changes, you'd be here saying that you don't see the hardship and asking why we don't just heal our 12-man group in PVP. Well, we've been telling you why, if you'd care to listen.


(As for the PVE thing, well, you misrepresented the healing change. This isn't a matter of healing 12 players like this is a PVE trial. Its about healing all your allies in the same battle, in a faction-based PVP mode designed for large scale combat. In PVE and PVP both, healers used to be able to heal everyone in the same battle. PVE healers still can.

So when we look at what actually happened, you said you don't see the hardship for PVP healers to go from healing every ally on the battlefield to healing only a portion of them. There's no real PVE equivalent to that change...unless we nerfed PVE healers to only be able to heal a portion of their allies on the battlefield. And I really, really doubt you'd find many PVE healers in favor of that nerf. Again, the hardship that would result for the players who are negatively effected really isn't a mystery. And this post here suggests that you do, in fact, understand that.)

[Quoted post was removed]

[Quoted post was removed]

[snip]

I'll say again, "solo" healer makes no sense as if you're alone then you are you healing? No one.
You're not solo, you're right next to a group of players on the same alliance. Join their group.

And yes, this change only benefits me and my friends as is raises the skill floor for PvP.

I believe fights shouldn't just be determined by sheer numbers. Healers should have to think about positioning and who they are healing, DDs should have to think about positioning and who can heal them. If I'm out of position in my group I died, that's my fault and means I need to improve.

[snip]

Let's just fix all the lag and make dps aoe skills affecting enemies outside the group's target at that time, impossible. Server calculations would reduce to minimal. No zerg surfing for kills from DPS AOE bots.

You should only get AP and kill credit for players you actually targeted and hit with your weapon. DPS is too easy with proc sets and spammable aoes and causes terrible lag in fights.

Self improvement for the win!

Wolfpaw

hexentb16_ESO wrote: »

So I've been playing ESO since PC beta. From then until a week ago I had never made a serious healer character.

Figured it was about time I did so I made a pvp healer. After a while I realized ZOS hates pvp healers. I mean, they must. Healing and damage shields are reduced. Groups are smaller. AND we can't heal anyone outside of our groups.

If I knew ZOS hated pvp healers so much I wouldn't have wasted all that time and gold making one. I would have just made another OP ball killer tank.

Edit.
Honestly, if I could just heal people out side of my group I wouldn't mind the other two handicaps.

Look at all the different combat changes over the last few years.

Throw it, see if it sticks, & hope it doesn't break the game further.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eD-ZKyGfhsE

VaranisArano

ThePedge wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

ThePedge wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

ThePedge wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

ThePedge wrote: »

I don't get the hardship, for all other content healers heal their group. Why can't you just heal your group in PvP.

If you want to draw an equivalence with PVE, let's do it properly.

PVP healers lost the ability to heal more than a limited amount of the players fighting in the same battle as them. Most large fights in Cyrodiil are considerably larger than a 12 v 12, so PVP healers cannot heal everyone on their side any longer like they used to be able to.

So to make that an equivalent nerf, let's limit dungeon healers to only healing 2 players at a time. Limit Trial healers to only healing 6 players at a time. Even that's not really equivalent, since PVP healers in large battles could heal far more than 24 players before, but we'll go with halvsies for the time being.

What happens?

Oh, your teammate took at big hit from the boss and you can't heal them? You have to stand there and watch a teammate die from mechanics because you can't heal them? That's terrible! Before the nerf, you could heal everyone in the same battle as you. You could have helped them!

I'm sure that PVE healers will line up to cheer on that change! /s


Now, we've already discussed this with you in several previous threads, so I'm not expecting you to admit that PVP healers have solid reasons to complain about no longer being able to heal everyone who's in the same battle as them. I realize that to the sort of player who views everyone else on their faction as nothing more than people who happen to be the same color and fighting the same enemy, watching thir "allies" die is no great hardship, since that sort of player tries to be self-sufficient, and wasn't intending to help them out anyway. It shouldn't be hard to figure out that healers and other support roles generally don't view their faction mates as expendable, instead preferring to, you know, support everyone in the same battle as them with heals and buffs as everyone works together for a common goal.

You don't have to agree with that - based on previous conversations, I expect you won't.

But don't be disingenuous by acting like PVP healers didn't take a massive nerf compared to the healing they used to be able to do.


(Oh, and don't complain about ball group dominance either. When you limit healing only to group members, 12-man ball groups are inevitably going to have way more healing than anyone else, especially PUGs who may or may not have picked up a healer from zone. There's another hardship, but one that gets passed on to other players primarily. Unless, of course, you like ball group dominance, in which case, carry on.)

So in your fantasy realm, you would be in a dungeon in two groups? And the healer could only heal one other person? Is that what you're trying to cook up?

Of course healers took a nerf, well deserved. They were far too strong before

I don't like Ball Group dominance, they're a pain in the ass. I used to play in one but it got too laggy and honestly boring.
But at the same time I'm not going to say that they are a problem. 12 people decided to chose an efficient way to play, and get the best results. That's a congratulations.

I join groups and co-ordinate to get PvE titles, I don't join 11 pugs in craglorn then complain on forums that it's too hard. Does something need to change with how ball-groups and stacking healing abilities works? Yes.

Once that changes, maybe group-related changes in Cyrodiil can change again.

So...We've jumped from "I don't get the hardship" to
"Of course healers took a nerf, well deserved." And "Does something need to change with how ball-groups and stacking healing abilities works? Yes."

You spot that hardship yet?

You seem to understand it pretty well, actually. In fact, you think its a justified and necessary hardship.

Its still a hardship for the players who, unlike you, are negatively effected. It shouldn't be hard to understand that.

Duh, PVP healers who just took a massive nerf dropping from being able to heal anyone in their entire faction who was fighting in the same battle aren't going to be happy with just healing 11 other people like this is a PVE trial. What PVP healer likes watching allies they used to be able to heal last update die without being able to do anything?

Duh, PVP players who think there's a problem when ZOS exacerbates ball group dominance by handing them a massive advantage in healing over their now weakened enemies, aren't happy. Who likes seeing their groups weakened while the already dominant 12-man ball groups aren't touched?

I'm not saying anything we haven't discussed in previous threads, really. So I guess it just surprised me that after participating in several threads on the same topic with a number of PVP healers explaining their problems with the changes, you'd be here saying that you don't see the hardship and asking why we don't just heal our 12-man group in PVP. Well, we've been telling you why, if you'd care to listen.


(As for the PVE thing, well, you misrepresented the healing change. This isn't a matter of healing 12 players like this is a PVE trial. Its about healing all your allies in the same battle, in a faction-based PVP mode designed for large scale combat. In PVE and PVP both, healers used to be able to heal everyone in the same battle. PVE healers still can.

So when we look at what actually happened, you said you don't see the hardship for PVP healers to go from healing every ally on the battlefield to healing only a portion of them. There's no real PVE equivalent to that change...unless we nerfed PVE healers to only be able to heal a portion of their allies on the battlefield. And I really, really doubt you'd find many PVE healers in favor of that nerf. Again, the hardship that would result for the players who are negatively effected really isn't a mystery. And this post here suggests that you do, in fact, understand that.)

[Quoted post was removed]

[Quoted post was removed]

[snip]

I'll say again, "solo" healer makes no sense as if you're alone then you are you healing? No one.
You're not solo, you're right next to a group of players on the same alliance. Join their group.

And yes, this change only benefits me and my friends as is raises the skill floor for PvP.

I believe fights shouldn't just be determined by sheer numbers. Healers should have to think about positioning and who they are healing, DDs should have to think about positioning and who can heal them. If I'm out of position in my group I died, that's my fault and means I need to improve.

[snip]

It sure is easy to wave the flag of "get gud, scrub!" when your playstyle benefited, not because it raised the overall skill level, but because your less organized or ungrouped opponents are getting less healing, or may not even have a healer in their group. Your "skill" hasn't improved. If anything, organized small scale groups have an easier time of it. Your opponents got nerfed by ZOS.

I think its telling when "I wish everyone had the same appetite for self-improvement I did" comes hand in hand with assuming that your opponents are an unthinking swarm. I find that's a pretty easy mindset to slip into for players who frequently fight outnumbered, whether its small scale or guild groups. If I'm not careful, I too find myself thinking along the lines of "I'm smart and skilled to fight outnumbered/my enemies are dumb and only win via numbers." It breeds contempt, and I try to avoid that. My enemies are other players, who are presumably out in Cyrodiil to have fun and improve at their own pace, much as I am.


As for "Go join a group", well, you still misrepresent the healing nerf. Ungrouped healers weren't alone and they used to be able to heal every ally near them, not just the 11 others in their group. "But "solo" healers weren't solo" isn't very much of a "gotcha!" point when it only proves how severe of a nerf this was to healers.

But you knew that. Its already been explained to you in these threads, should you care to reread what PVP healers have to say:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/556017/dear-zos-team-from-cyro-healers/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/551933/behavioral-changes/p1

Or don't. After all, our counterpoints can be safely ignored as having no value.

Reaper_00

ThePedge wrote: »

I believe fights shouldn't just be determined by sheer numbers. Healers should have to think about positioning and who they are healing, DDs should have to think about positioning and who can heal them. If I'm out of position in my group I died, that's my fault and means I need to improve.

None of which has anything to do with being in a group or not.

ThePedge wrote: »

[snip]

Are you trying to say you are only capable of self-improvement if you have 11 other people tagging along with you?

Well I do feel special then, because I was able to learn all those thing while playing as a solo healer without any group!

ZOS_ConnorG

Greetings all,

After review we have had to edit or remove several posts for rule violations, mostly Baiting. Ensure when engaging in a discussion that you keep said discussion civil, constructive, and within the rules. If you see a post that is baiting in nature do not engage it with further hostility and instead report it for the moderators to review.

You are welcome to review the Community Rules here.

sup

[snip]

It's an open world conquest map. Organic fights happen all of the time when you have no chance to make a group. Not being able to heal the ally right next to you is so broken from any perspective you look at. Damage doesn't have these restrictions. No one coming into the game as a new player would ever assume it works this way because it makes no sense.

[Edited to remove Discussing Mod Action]

geonsocal

not so much healer hate, but rather for whatever reason zos seems to have disdain for solo play...

hexentb16_ESO

sup wrote: »

[snip]

It's an open world conquest map. Organic fights happen all of the time when you have no chance to make a group. Not being able to heal the ally right next to you is so broken from any perspective you look at. Damage doesn't have these restrictions. No one coming into the game as a new player would ever assume it works this way because it makes no sense.

[Edited to remove Discussing Mod Action]

Its sad that the mods won't even let you talk about them.

If any mods are reading this, too much censorship hurts you and the company more than anything we could say. You're doing the internet equivalent of self harm.

Raideen

hexentb16_ESO wrote: »

If any mods are reading this, too much censorship hurts you and the company more than anything we could say. You're doing the internet equivalent of self harm.

Ya, I don't really know if they understand this or not. My GF and I left the game 16 months ago for close to a year because of this and I have subbed to ESO+ since day one of playing ESO, so that is a lot of lost revenue, not to mention crown store sales. I would find it hard to believe that I am the only one who is treated or feels this way. I have never felt like the "enemy" of a video game before, but I do here. I don't feel valued at all as a customer.

I fact, although I have no intent in discussing moderation, I fear even this post will result in me getting banned for 4 days.

JonnytheKing

hexentb16_ESO wrote: »

So I've been playing ESO since PC beta. From then until a week ago I had never made a serious healer character.

Figured it was about time I did so I made a pvp healer. After a while I realized ZOS hates pvp healers. I mean, they must. Healing and damage shields are reduced. Groups are smaller. AND we can't heal anyone outside of our groups.

If I knew ZOS hated pvp healers so much I wouldn't have wasted all that time and gold making one. I would have just made another OP ball killer tank.

Edit.
Honestly, if I could just heal people out side of my group I wouldn't mind the other two handicaps.

May i ask what a OP ball killer tank.is