Magicka Warden Sustain in Trial Content

Krevad

Context:
Magicka Warden damage dealers are often shunned in endgame trial content. The main issue stems from sustain issues that are severely holding them back from reaching their DPS potential; in patches where they are able to sustain like resorting to using blood for blood, they are otherwise quite up there.
They also otherwise lack a unique debuff which may have helped promote their use, unlike Magicka Dragonknight with Engulfing Flames which allows them to see play at least as a one-off.
(Brittle was probably a missed opportunity to treat this but probably now hard-coded in a way that's hard to change and has its own issues that need fixing with how it interacts with Heroic Slash).

Problem:
Unlike the big hits of Sorcerers who have reduced costs on Crystal Frags, Nightblades who have reduced costs on Assassin's Will (bow proc) and Necromancers who have reduced costs Blastbones, Warden's periodic big hitter skill in Deep Fissure (shalks) is relatively expensive which results in it being a big constant drain in Magicka that leaves them dry. Having to resort to always being a vampire to deal competitive damage otherwise pigeonholes the class.

Proposed Solution:
Please consider reducing the costs of warden's shalks or introduce a refund/cost reduction mechanic elsewhere to help with their sustain.

Stahlor

Every magicka class has sustain issues except of Magcros.

FrancisCrawford

Stahlor wrote: »

Every magicka class has sustain issues except of Magcros.

This isn't the first reference I've seen, but it still surprises me. When and how did magcro sustain get good?

Krevad

Stahlor wrote: »

Every magicka class has sustain issues except of Magcros.

other classes are still playable though if supported sufficiently just plar and den are severely struggling right now.

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Stahlor wrote: »

Every magicka class has sustain issues except of Magcros.

This isn't the first reference I've seen, but it still surprises me. When and how did magcro sustain get good?

It's always been decent, their Blastbone only costs half of a standard spammable and Shocking Siphon is both their best DoT and Magicka sustain rolled into one vs siphoning attacks and betty being an opportunity cost in DPS.

What made it really good was Blastbones being fixed to reliably be cast consistently every third skill instead of sometimes every fourth and what makes it top parse atm is how brittle interacts with their 100% crit in execute and the dummy being given Major Vulnerability so you can run your best DoT ulti in Shooting Star instead of Collosus.

Krevad

Just to clarify on my perspective on 'playable';
If we use Yolnakriin HM as a benchmark without using blood for blood/pale order:

Great - 0 heavy attacks/ Only have to heavy during flight -
Playable - 1 or 2 heavy attacks once he's landed
Unplayable - Having to heavy attack every second rotation that your LA ratio is destroyed, and your parse is bad and your day is ruined.

ESO_Nightingale

Krevad wrote: »

Context:
Magicka Warden damage dealers are often shunned in endgame trial content. The main issue stems from sustain issues that are severely holding them back from reaching their DPS potential; in patches where they are able to sustain like resorting to using blood for blood, they are otherwise quite up there.
They also otherwise lack a unique debuff which may have helped promote their use, unlike Magicka Dragonknight with Engulfing Flames which allows them to see play at least as a one-off.
(Brittle was probably a missed opportunity to treat this but probably now hard-coded in a way that's hard to change and has its own issues that need fixing with how it interacts with Heroic Slash).

Problem:
Unlike the big hits of Sorcerers who have reduced costs on Crystal Frags, Nightblades who have reduced costs on Assassin's Will (bow proc) and Necromancers who have reduced costs Blastbones, Warden's periodic big hitter skill in Deep Fissure (shalks) is relatively expensive which results in it being a big constant drain in Magicka that leaves them dry. Having to resort to always being a vampire to deal competitive damage otherwise pigeonholes the class.

Proposed Solution:
Please consider reducing the costs of warden's shalks or introduce a refund/cost reduction mechanic elsewhere to help with their sustain.

I think one of the main issues when it comes to trials isn't actually sustain, but rather damage and how much of it is spread into bear. Bear is the only competitively viable trial ultimate and yet has been plagued with bad ai and issues for a long time, people complained when it was nerfed, yet it still poses a big problem in why it's hard to see magden viable outside of parses, personally, i think it's light attack damage should be nerfed further. Then, would much rather see damage reworks to existing problematic skills (looking at you arctic blast), and shifts of raw damage power (and bear's lost power) into damage skills via effects which promote interclass synergy and aren't just raw damage/named buffs or effects which punish you for being in melee range.

zvavi

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Krevad wrote: »

Context:
Magicka Warden damage dealers are often shunned in endgame trial content. The main issue stems from sustain issues that are severely holding them back from reaching their DPS potential; in patches where they are able to sustain like resorting to using blood for blood, they are otherwise quite up there.
They also otherwise lack a unique debuff which may have helped promote their use, unlike Magicka Dragonknight with Engulfing Flames which allows them to see play at least as a one-off.
(Brittle was probably a missed opportunity to treat this but probably now hard-coded in a way that's hard to change and has its own issues that need fixing with how it interacts with Heroic Slash).

Problem:
Unlike the big hits of Sorcerers who have reduced costs on Crystal Frags, Nightblades who have reduced costs on Assassin's Will (bow proc) and Necromancers who have reduced costs Blastbones, Warden's periodic big hitter skill in Deep Fissure (shalks) is relatively expensive which results in it being a big constant drain in Magicka that leaves them dry. Having to resort to always being a vampire to deal competitive damage otherwise pigeonholes the class.

Proposed Solution:
Please consider reducing the costs of warden's shalks or introduce a refund/cost reduction mechanic elsewhere to help with their sustain.

I think one of the main issues when it comes to trials isn't actually sustain, but rather damage and how much of it is spread into bear. Bear is the only competitively viable trial ultimate and yet has been plagued with bad ai and issues for a long time, people complained when it was nerfed, yet it still poses a big problem in why it's hard to see magden viable outside of parses, personally, i think it's light attack damage should be nerfed further. Then, would much rather see damage reworks to existing problematic skills (looking at you arctic blast), and shifts of raw damage power (and bear's lost power) into damage skills via effects which promote interclass synergy and aren't just raw damage/named buffs or effects which punish you for being in melee range.

Personally I think the Bears stupid ai can be easily fixed. Make animal companion abilities to force him change targets.

While I do agree that the bear is meh (so are pets for sorcerer), I don't see any rebalance coming any time soon that will put them on the same power level as no pet.

ESO_Nightingale

zvavi wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Krevad wrote: »

Context:
Magicka Warden damage dealers are often shunned in endgame trial content. The main issue stems from sustain issues that are severely holding them back from reaching their DPS potential; in patches where they are able to sustain like resorting to using blood for blood, they are otherwise quite up there.
They also otherwise lack a unique debuff which may have helped promote their use, unlike Magicka Dragonknight with Engulfing Flames which allows them to see play at least as a one-off.
(Brittle was probably a missed opportunity to treat this but probably now hard-coded in a way that's hard to change and has its own issues that need fixing with how it interacts with Heroic Slash).

Problem:
Unlike the big hits of Sorcerers who have reduced costs on Crystal Frags, Nightblades who have reduced costs on Assassin's Will (bow proc) and Necromancers who have reduced costs Blastbones, Warden's periodic big hitter skill in Deep Fissure (shalks) is relatively expensive which results in it being a big constant drain in Magicka that leaves them dry. Having to resort to always being a vampire to deal competitive damage otherwise pigeonholes the class.

Proposed Solution:
Please consider reducing the costs of warden's shalks or introduce a refund/cost reduction mechanic elsewhere to help with their sustain.

I think one of the main issues when it comes to trials isn't actually sustain, but rather damage and how much of it is spread into bear. Bear is the only competitively viable trial ultimate and yet has been plagued with bad ai and issues for a long time, people complained when it was nerfed, yet it still poses a big problem in why it's hard to see magden viable outside of parses, personally, i think it's light attack damage should be nerfed further. Then, would much rather see damage reworks to existing problematic skills (looking at you arctic blast), and shifts of raw damage power (and bear's lost power) into damage skills via effects which promote interclass synergy and aren't just raw damage/named buffs or effects which punish you for being in melee range.

Personally I think the Bears stupid ai can be easily fixed. Make animal companion abilities to force him change targets.

While I do agree that the bear is meh (so are pets for sorcerer), I don't see any rebalance coming any time soon that will put them on the same power level as no pet.

I don't think that solution is the best idea. What if you want your bear to keep attacking the boss while you take care of an add? Mucks it up.

As for the suggestions i roughly stated, I don't see anything coming to warden for an extremely long time, and if something comes it'll likely be only one small thing. Warden has some major issues that we've been reporting for upwards of 3 years at this point, but progress has been ridiculously slow.

zvavi

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Krevad wrote: »

Context:
Magicka Warden damage dealers are often shunned in endgame trial content. The main issue stems from sustain issues that are severely holding them back from reaching their DPS potential; in patches where they are able to sustain like resorting to using blood for blood, they are otherwise quite up there.
They also otherwise lack a unique debuff which may have helped promote their use, unlike Magicka Dragonknight with Engulfing Flames which allows them to see play at least as a one-off.
(Brittle was probably a missed opportunity to treat this but probably now hard-coded in a way that's hard to change and has its own issues that need fixing with how it interacts with Heroic Slash).

Problem:
Unlike the big hits of Sorcerers who have reduced costs on Crystal Frags, Nightblades who have reduced costs on Assassin's Will (bow proc) and Necromancers who have reduced costs Blastbones, Warden's periodic big hitter skill in Deep Fissure (shalks) is relatively expensive which results in it being a big constant drain in Magicka that leaves them dry. Having to resort to always being a vampire to deal competitive damage otherwise pigeonholes the class.

Proposed Solution:
Please consider reducing the costs of warden's shalks or introduce a refund/cost reduction mechanic elsewhere to help with their sustain.

I think one of the main issues when it comes to trials isn't actually sustain, but rather damage and how much of it is spread into bear. Bear is the only competitively viable trial ultimate and yet has been plagued with bad ai and issues for a long time, people complained when it was nerfed, yet it still poses a big problem in why it's hard to see magden viable outside of parses, personally, i think it's light attack damage should be nerfed further. Then, would much rather see damage reworks to existing problematic skills (looking at you arctic blast), and shifts of raw damage power (and bear's lost power) into damage skills via effects which promote interclass synergy and aren't just raw damage/named buffs or effects which punish you for being in melee range.

Personally I think the Bears stupid ai can be easily fixed. Make animal companion abilities to force him change targets.

While I do agree that the bear is meh (so are pets for sorcerer), I don't see any rebalance coming any time soon that will put them on the same power level as no pet.

I don't think that solution is the best idea. What if you want your bear to keep attacking the boss while you take care of an add? Mucks it up.

As for the suggestions i roughly stated, I don't see anything coming to warden for an extremely long time, and if something comes it'll likely be only one small thing. Warden has some major issues that we've been reporting for upwards of 3 years at this point, but progress has been ridiculously slow.

Then you don't use the birds spammable in that place. Nor Fletcher on that add. It lets you have a choice.

AinSoph

"magplar shaped tumbleweed rolls in the bg"

Dracane

While your argument is not false, Shalks are already cheaper by default than any of the examples you mentioned.

Shalks has a base cost of 2160 magicka.
Merciless resolve has a base cost of 2400 and the arrow costs another 1200 magicka.
Crystal shard is 2640 magicka without the sorcerer passive.
Blastbones is 2400 magicka.

Blastbones and Crystal Shard become a lot cheaper, that is true. But Shalks is totally fine with its cost and not as much of an outlier as you think. The problem is, that it has to be used every 3 seconds. Why did Deep Fissure not get the same treatment as Sub Assault? If it would recast itself for free once, it would fix the entire problem.

Dracane

Stahlor wrote: »

Every magicka class has sustain issues except of Magcros.

They all suffer from the game being balanced around but 2 scenarios: Highest possible pvp MMR and Terror Endgame Trial groups.

Their idea is that magicka classes have across the board more expensive skills, because minor magicka steal exists and hollowfang. So they expect all magicka classes to receive support from a healer dedicated to boosting their sustain. Not only does this create sustain problems in pvp, but also in all pve scenarios without a terror group setup.

Minor magicka steal got nerfed by almost 50%, but magicka received nothing to make up for it. And no, the buff to minor and major recovery buffs does not count, because the stamina recovery buffs were boosted equally.

This leaves magicka builds with worse sustain in pvp and most pve scenarios where you have no hollow fang and synergy bots tending you.

Everest_Lionheart

Dracane wrote: »

While your argument is not false, Shalks are already cheaper by default than any of the examples you mentioned.

Shalks has a base cost of 2160 magicka.
Merciless resolve has a base cost of 2400 and the arrow costs another 1200 magicka.
Crystal shard is 2640 magicka without the sorcerer passive.
Blastbones is 2400 magicka.

Blastbones and Crystal Shard become a lot cheaper, that is true. But Shalks is totally fine with its cost and not as much of an outlier as you think. The problem is, that it has to be used every 3 seconds. Why did Deep Fissure not get the same treatment as Sub Assault? If it would recast itself for free once, it would fix the entire problem.

The recast came at the expense of major breach. SA no longer applies it. That gave us an extra GCD which gave up a massive damage increase but took away one of the few things that a Stamden could bring to the table in end game trials. As a result Stamden is relegated to the bench, even if you are hitting 95k+ because other stam toons that shall remain nameless can spam 3 skills and break 100k in their sleep and they bring one unique debuff to the table.

A free recast will give magden a huge DPS buff, probably too much to be honest and will put them far in front of the rest of the field in terms of DPS. You will still probably struggle a bit with sustain, but it won’t matter. That’s the power of a free GCD plus your hardest hitting skill hitting at the same time. The simplified rotation would also factor in. My estimate is a simple recast like what we have on stam will add 15-20k dps to magden possibly more.

Dracane

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

While your argument is not false, Shalks are already cheaper by default than any of the examples you mentioned.

Shalks has a base cost of 2160 magicka.
Merciless resolve has a base cost of 2400 and the arrow costs another 1200 magicka.
Crystal shard is 2640 magicka without the sorcerer passive.
Blastbones is 2400 magicka.

Blastbones and Crystal Shard become a lot cheaper, that is true. But Shalks is totally fine with its cost and not as much of an outlier as you think. The problem is, that it has to be used every 3 seconds. Why did Deep Fissure not get the same treatment as Sub Assault? If it would recast itself for free once, it would fix the entire problem.

The recast came at the expense of major breach. SA no longer applies it. That gave us an extra GCD which gave up a massive damage increase but took away one of the few things that a Stamden could bring to the table in end game trials. As a result Stamden is relegated to the bench, even if you are hitting 95k+ because other stam toons that shall remain nameless can spam 3 skills and break 100k in their sleep and they bring one unique debuff to the table.

A free recast will give magden a huge DPS buff, probably too much to be honest and will put them far in front of the rest of the field in terms of DPS. You will still probably struggle a bit with sustain, but it won’t matter. That’s the power of a free GCD plus your hardest hitting skill hitting at the same time. The simplified rotation would also factor in. My estimate is a simple recast like what we have on stam will add 15-20k dps to magden possibly more.

That is probably a bit too much then, I suppose.
Then what do you fancy? Shalks well meet their ability cost standards. I do not think they could just reduce the ability itself.
Unless they would add something to one of the animal passives akin Rebate. That when one of your animal abilities ends, you get a bit of ressources back.

Krevad

Dracane wrote: »

While your argument is not false, Shalks are already cheaper by default than any of the examples you mentioned.

Shalks has a base cost of 2160 magicka.
Merciless resolve has a base cost of 2400 and the arrow costs another 1200 magicka.
Crystal shard is 2640 magicka without the sorcerer passive.
Blastbones is 2400 magicka.

Blastbones and Crystal Shard become a lot cheaper, that is true. But Shalks is totally fine with its cost and not as much of an outlier as you think. The problem is, that it has to be used every 3 seconds. Why did Deep Fissure not get the same treatment as Sub Assault? If it would recast itself for free once, it would fix the entire problem.

I think those are modified costs due to Light Armor but refund mechanics are multiplicative anywhere but here are the numbers if you look at it more deeply:

Shalks always has the same cost:
Cost per cast: 2160 Magicka

Merciless Resolve lasts 40 seconds so the next 7 bow procs that you can fit in are halved cost so the:
Average cost per cast: 1350 Magicka*

Crystal Fragments is only casted when it's cheaper and additionally comes with the 10% cost reduction on the next cast that can be used for reapplying wall/orb.
Cost per cast: 1350 Magicka

At least 2/3rd of Blastbones are casted at 50% reduced cost due to reusable parts when bodies aren't consumed for boneyard and siphon.
Average cost per cast: 1600 Magicka

* While NB does theirs every 6th instead of every 3rd skill, incap and siphoning keeps them sustainable.

As you can see there is a significant discrepancy and at a high level of APM where the Magicka drain leads to an unsustainable experience for a majority of trial encounters that are parse-heavy fights.

The only endgame trial where Magden shines atm is vCR+3 with good AoE, the ability to squeeze out more damage from pre-Shalk Zmaja dives, the opportunity to maintain recast betty without dps loss, and not as much of a demand to be constantly casting that makes them sustainable.

I actually do like the current model of sustain however where high elf has to drop mystic orb while breton can sustain a dummy parse with it that makes racial impact significant unlike patches where high elf is clearly better otherwise but I think Magden is a clear outlier for sustain from their periodic big damage skill cost.

Magplar has their own problem in purifying light being an every 6th cast like blade but without as much sustain elsewhere and the hit itself not doing very much compared to the other big hits.

Dracane

Krevad wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

While your argument is not false, Shalks are already cheaper by default than any of the examples you mentioned.

Shalks has a base cost of 2160 magicka.
Merciless resolve has a base cost of 2400 and the arrow costs another 1200 magicka.
Crystal shard is 2640 magicka without the sorcerer passive.
Blastbones is 2400 magicka.

Blastbones and Crystal Shard become a lot cheaper, that is true. But Shalks is totally fine with its cost and not as much of an outlier as you think. The problem is, that it has to be used every 3 seconds. Why did Deep Fissure not get the same treatment as Sub Assault? If it would recast itself for free once, it would fix the entire problem.

I think those are modified costs due to Light Armor but refund mechanics are multiplicative anywhere but here are the numbers if you look at it more deeply:

Shalks always has the same cost:
Cost per cast: 2160 Magicka

Merciless Resolve lasts 40 seconds so the next 7 bow procs that you can fit in are halved cost so the:
Average cost per cast: 1350 Magicka*

Crystal Fragments is only casted when it's cheaper and additionally comes with the 10% cost reduction on the next cast that can be used for reapplying wall/orb.
Cost per cast: 1350 Magicka

At least 2/3rd of Blastbones are casted at 50% reduced cost due to reusable parts when bodies aren't consumed for boneyard and siphon.
Average cost per cast: 1600 Magicka

* While NB does theirs every 6th instead of every 3rd skill, incap and siphoning keeps them sustainable.

As you can see there is a significant discrepancy and at a high level of APM where the Magicka drain leads to an unsustainable experience for a majority of trial encounters that are parse-heavy fights.

The only endgame trial where Magden shines atm is vCR+3 with good AoE, the ability to squeeze out more damage from pre-Shalk Zmaja dives, the opportunity to maintain recast betty without dps loss, and not as much of a demand to be constantly casting that makes them sustainable.

I actually do like the current model of sustain however where high elf has to drop mystic orb while breton can sustain a dummy parse with it that makes racial impact significant unlike patches where high elf is clearly better otherwise but I think Magden is a clear outlier for sustain from their periodic big damage skill cost.

Magplar has their own problem in purifying light being an every 6th cast like blade but without as much sustain elsewhere and the hit itself not doing very much compared to the other big hits.

Crystal Fragment procs do not reduce the cost of your next ability. Only the hardcast does (which nobody uses). This just enrages me again, that all the drama we caused during that pts, they never made its tooltip more clear or actually have it do what the tooltip claims.

But you are right, when compared to those other abilties, shalks is more expensive. Though only because of how frequently you have to reapply it. That is why I suggested giving warden a passive similar to Sorcerer Rebate. I think it would make sense and would help alleviate the problem a bit.

Krevad

Dracane wrote: »

Crystal Fragment procs do not reduce the cost of your next ability. Only the hardcast does (which nobody uses). This just enrages me again, that all the drama we caused during that pts, they never made its tooltip more clear or actually have it do what the tooltip claims.

But you are right, when compared to those other abilties, shalks is more expensive. Though only because of how frequently you have to reapply it. That is why I suggested giving warden a passive similar to Sorcerer Rebate. I think it would make sense and would help alleviate the problem a bit.

Interesting, I've been trying to line up frags with wall as much as possible when rng permits all this time!

I do prefer to see the big hits as a privilege/opportunity to cast more often though since they ARE cheaper than a standard spammable at the end of the day while at the same time packing more damage.

But yeah, warden needs help on sustain no matter how they do it.
Simply making every second Deep Fissure half price though would easily bring it more to standard at 1620 average cost per cast compared to Blastbones at 1600 average cost per cast which are essentially the same every third cast mechanic.
It would be fitting thematically in with how every second Fetcher being 50% more damage too.

Stahlor

Magcro has higher base magicka recovery, thats why it's easier to sustain.

ESO_Nightingale

zvavi wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Krevad wrote: »

Context:
Magicka Warden damage dealers are often shunned in endgame trial content. The main issue stems from sustain issues that are severely holding them back from reaching their DPS potential; in patches where they are able to sustain like resorting to using blood for blood, they are otherwise quite up there.
They also otherwise lack a unique debuff which may have helped promote their use, unlike Magicka Dragonknight with Engulfing Flames which allows them to see play at least as a one-off.
(Brittle was probably a missed opportunity to treat this but probably now hard-coded in a way that's hard to change and has its own issues that need fixing with how it interacts with Heroic Slash).

Problem:
Unlike the big hits of Sorcerers who have reduced costs on Crystal Frags, Nightblades who have reduced costs on Assassin's Will (bow proc) and Necromancers who have reduced costs Blastbones, Warden's periodic big hitter skill in Deep Fissure (shalks) is relatively expensive which results in it being a big constant drain in Magicka that leaves them dry. Having to resort to always being a vampire to deal competitive damage otherwise pigeonholes the class.

Proposed Solution:
Please consider reducing the costs of warden's shalks or introduce a refund/cost reduction mechanic elsewhere to help with their sustain.

I think one of the main issues when it comes to trials isn't actually sustain, but rather damage and how much of it is spread into bear. Bear is the only competitively viable trial ultimate and yet has been plagued with bad ai and issues for a long time, people complained when it was nerfed, yet it still poses a big problem in why it's hard to see magden viable outside of parses, personally, i think it's light attack damage should be nerfed further. Then, would much rather see damage reworks to existing problematic skills (looking at you arctic blast), and shifts of raw damage power (and bear's lost power) into damage skills via effects which promote interclass synergy and aren't just raw damage/named buffs or effects which punish you for being in melee range.

Personally I think the Bears stupid ai can be easily fixed. Make animal companion abilities to force him change targets.

While I do agree that the bear is meh (so are pets for sorcerer), I don't see any rebalance coming any time soon that will put them on the same power level as no pet.

I don't think that solution is the best idea. What if you want your bear to keep attacking the boss while you take care of an add? Mucks it up.

As for the suggestions i roughly stated, I don't see anything coming to warden for an extremely long time, and if something comes it'll likely be only one small thing. Warden has some major issues that we've been reporting for upwards of 3 years at this point, but progress has been ridiculously slow.

Then you don't use the birds spammable in that place. Nor Fletcher on that add. It lets you have a choice.

then it's weirdly punishing. doesn't seem like good gameplay when you can't use your main spammable against an add without disrupting your gameplay.

WrathOfInnos

Agreed, magden sustain may be the worst of any class. Even if you use the Netch it feels about the same as magDK, and significantly worse than other classes. Without the Netch it’s hopeless.

I tried magden without Blood for Blood on Lokkestiiz last week. Could not sustain even with the Netch and Grundwulf.

I think the Netch just needs to be buffed. It currently gives 176 mag/s. This should be at least 200, maybe 240 or 250 mag/s to make it closer to Siphoning Attacks, Channeled Focus and Dark Conversion.

WrathOfInnos

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Stahlor wrote: »

Every magicka class has sustain issues except of Magcros.

This isn't the first reference I've seen, but it still surprises me. When and how did magcro sustain get good?

@FrancisCrawford its the combination of a few small changes over several patches. The most recent was doubling Major and Minor Intellect, which multiplied the 200 Recovery from the Undead Confederate passive. Siphon also works a lot better than it used to, and gives 100% uptime on that ~100 mag/s restore. Sustain is also helped by Siphon being on the GCD, since it’s a free skill every 10-12s. You basically save the cost of a spammable every rotation, compared to when Siphon was off the GCD and cast between other skills.

ESO_Nightingale

Krevad wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Crystal Fragment procs do not reduce the cost of your next ability. Only the hardcast does (which nobody uses). This just enrages me again, that all the drama we caused during that pts, they never made its tooltip more clear or actually have it do what the tooltip claims.

But you are right, when compared to those other abilties, shalks is more expensive. Though only because of how frequently you have to reapply it. That is why I suggested giving warden a passive similar to Sorcerer Rebate. I think it would make sense and would help alleviate the problem a bit.

Interesting, I've been trying to line up frags with wall as much as possible when rng permits all this time!

I do prefer to see the big hits as a privilege/opportunity to cast more often though since they ARE cheaper than a standard spammable at the end of the day while at the same time packing more damage.

But yeah, warden needs help on sustain no matter how they do it.
Simply making every second Deep Fissure half price though would easily bring it more to standard at 1620 average cost per cast compared to Blastbones at 1600 average cost per cast which are essentially the same every third cast mechanic.
It would be fitting thematically in with how every second Fetcher being 50% more damage too.

warden needs a whole rejig. sustain might be an issue, but i'd say a more pressing problem is the damage skills themselves, fetcher's bonus 50% damage per cast makes literally no sense, being inconsistent for no reason, the morph effect should be extremely similar, or the same as poison injection, to help us within execute as that has been a request, would knock away the current messy morph effect. dive is way too slow as a spammable, and punishes you in melee range on both magden and stamden, bear makes up a huge portion of our dps and is a mess in of itself due to the bad AI. we lack an entire damage skill when compared to other classes, and our skills are mostly just copy pastes, and to make up for this, we have a ton of lazily placed raw damage buffs throught the class. we have a fledgling identity with frost magic, and applying chilled, however, an overwhelming majority of our damage skills deal magic damage.

Stahlor

@ESO_Nightingale Although I agree with your points - you would make some PVPers very angry by buffing wardens.

ESO_Nightingale

Stahlor wrote: »

@ESO_Nightingale Although I agree with your points - you would make some PVPers very angry by buffing wardens.

trust me man, i know the reasons why warden is considered so annoying and i don't want to make them overpowered, just better designed and more fun to play. arctic blast is one of the absolute biggest problems, it needs a complete rework to remove it's healing and to turn it into an offensive stun and damage skill, and polar wind and arctic wind need some restriction in pvp. arctic blast is a problem due to how annoying it is to fight against as it heals for so much, and is an extremely strong defensive stun on top of that. when we asked for a stun a while back, we were asking for an offensive one. not a jack of all trades master of healing.

meanwhile, living trellis needs a 55% buff to move it up in power, though this percentage increase sounds over the top, it's quite fair, still healing no-where near as much as arctic blast, or abilities like BoL. that's just how weak trellis is at the moment.

Dracane

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Stahlor wrote: »

@ESO_Nightingale Although I agree with your points - you would make some PVPers very angry by buffing wardens.

trust me man, i know the reasons why warden is considered so annoying and i don't want to make them overpowered, just better designed and more fun to play. arctic blast is one of the absolute biggest problems, it needs a complete rework to remove it's healing and to turn it into an offensive stun and damage skill, and polar wind and arctic wind need some restriction in pvp. arctic blast is a problem due to how annoying it is to fight against as it heals for so much, and is an extremely strong defensive stun on top of that. when we asked for a stun a while back, we were asking for an offensive one. not a jack of all trades master of healing.

meanwhile, living trellis needs a 55% buff to move it up in power, though this percentage increase sounds over the top, it's quite fair, still healing no-where near as much as arctic blast, or abilities like BoL. that's just how weak trellis is at the moment.

In no CP with 34k health and heavy armor, our arctic wind does not even heal for 4k.
Everything is OP in CP, but not no CP. So please keep that in mind when asking for nerfs.

How is magicka warden supposed to survive when Arctic heals for less or according to your bidding, even loses its heal entirely? The Polar Wind morph can gladly lose it and be turned into your suggestions. Though who would use that in pvp?
Spores are way too expensive as a heal in my opinion and heal for even less.

Tendrils will not be enough I think.

ESO_Nightingale

Dracane wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Stahlor wrote: »

@ESO_Nightingale Although I agree with your points - you would make some PVPers very angry by buffing wardens.

trust me man, i know the reasons why warden is considered so annoying and i don't want to make them overpowered, just better designed and more fun to play. arctic blast is one of the absolute biggest problems, it needs a complete rework to remove it's healing and to turn it into an offensive stun and damage skill, and polar wind and arctic wind need some restriction in pvp. arctic blast is a problem due to how annoying it is to fight against as it heals for so much, and is an extremely strong defensive stun on top of that. when we asked for a stun a while back, we were asking for an offensive one. not a jack of all trades master of healing.

meanwhile, living trellis needs a 55% buff to move it up in power, though this percentage increase sounds over the top, it's quite fair, still healing no-where near as much as arctic blast, or abilities like BoL. that's just how weak trellis is at the moment.

In no CP with 34k health and heavy armor, our arctic wind does not even heal for 4k.
Everything is OP in CP, but not no CP. So please keep that in mind when asking for nerfs.

How is magicka warden supposed to survive when Arctic heals for less or according to your bidding, even loses its heal entirely? The Polar Wind morph can gladly lose it and be turned into your suggestions. Though who would use that in pvp?
Spores are way too expensive as a heal in my opinion and heal for even less.

When tendrils is the only good heal, then Wardens would just go the magicka Nightblade route of crying for a burst heal. (Even though magblades already have one of the best healing over time with all tools combined)

if you didn't read what i said, i suggested that trellis have it's healing increased by 55% to be on par with blessing of restoration before major mending. arctic blast is such a problem in cp that it is absolutely in need of changing. polar wind is the far better morph for pve, so removing it from tanks in pve who use it in order to get arctic blast would be a really bad idea. if arctic blast 3.0 was reworked into the 4.0 suggestion, everyone who is a magden would use it for it's superior offensive stun, and combo worthy damage. as it currently stands, arctic blast's stun is extremely annoying to fight against for a lot of classes, and really hard to combo with. the only stuns we can use outside of the class are flame clench which requires the use of the fire staff and knocks targets back, or vampire which isn't that great in actual practice and requires vampirism.

Dracane

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Stahlor wrote: »

@ESO_Nightingale Although I agree with your points - you would make some PVPers very angry by buffing wardens.

trust me man, i know the reasons why warden is considered so annoying and i don't want to make them overpowered, just better designed and more fun to play. arctic blast is one of the absolute biggest problems, it needs a complete rework to remove it's healing and to turn it into an offensive stun and damage skill, and polar wind and arctic wind need some restriction in pvp. arctic blast is a problem due to how annoying it is to fight against as it heals for so much, and is an extremely strong defensive stun on top of that. when we asked for a stun a while back, we were asking for an offensive one. not a jack of all trades master of healing.

meanwhile, living trellis needs a 55% buff to move it up in power, though this percentage increase sounds over the top, it's quite fair, still healing no-where near as much as arctic blast, or abilities like BoL. that's just how weak trellis is at the moment.

In no CP with 34k health and heavy armor, our arctic wind does not even heal for 4k.
Everything is OP in CP, but not no CP. So please keep that in mind when asking for nerfs.

How is magicka warden supposed to survive when Arctic heals for less or according to your bidding, even loses its heal entirely? The Polar Wind morph can gladly lose it and be turned into your suggestions. Though who would use that in pvp?
Spores are way too expensive as a heal in my opinion and heal for even less.

When tendrils is the only good heal, then Wardens would just go the magicka Nightblade route of crying for a burst heal. (Even though magblades already have one of the best healing over time with all tools combined)

if you didn't read what i said, i suggested that trellis have it's healing increased by 55% to be on par with blessing of restoration before major mending. arctic blast is such a problem in cp that it is absolutely in need of changing. polar wind is the far better morph for pve, so removing it from tanks in pve who use it in order to get arctic blast would be a really bad idea. if arctic blast 3.0 was reworked into the 4.0 suggestion, everyone who is a magden would use it for it's superior offensive stun, and combo worthy damage. as it currently stands, arctic blast's stun is extremely annoying to fight against for a lot of classes, and really hard to combo with. the only stuns we can use outside of the class are flame clench which requires the use of the fire staff and knocks targets back, or vampire which isn't that great in actual practice and requires vampirism.

This would force wardens into either a high spell damage setup to make spores good enough as a burst heal or when they build for health and take polar wind, they lose the stun.

Stahlor

I like polar wind like it is. I need it on my PVE tank to survive, since wardens don't have a spammable shield like DKs have. They should make more restrictions for PVP without affecting PVE.

ESO_Nightingale

Stahlor wrote: »

I like polar wind like it is. I need it on my PVE tank to survive, since wardens don't have a spammable shield like DKs have. They should make more restrictions for PVP without affecting PVE.

that's exactly what i think should happen, it should have a healing reduction in pvp, but not pve. polar wind is fine as a tank heal in pve.

ESO_Nightingale

Dracane wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Stahlor wrote: »

@ESO_Nightingale Although I agree with your points - you would make some PVPers very angry by buffing wardens.

trust me man, i know the reasons why warden is considered so annoying and i don't want to make them overpowered, just better designed and more fun to play. arctic blast is one of the absolute biggest problems, it needs a complete rework to remove it's healing and to turn it into an offensive stun and damage skill, and polar wind and arctic wind need some restriction in pvp. arctic blast is a problem due to how annoying it is to fight against as it heals for so much, and is an extremely strong defensive stun on top of that. when we asked for a stun a while back, we were asking for an offensive one. not a jack of all trades master of healing.

meanwhile, living trellis needs a 55% buff to move it up in power, though this percentage increase sounds over the top, it's quite fair, still healing no-where near as much as arctic blast, or abilities like BoL. that's just how weak trellis is at the moment.

In no CP with 34k health and heavy armor, our arctic wind does not even heal for 4k.
Everything is OP in CP, but not no CP. So please keep that in mind when asking for nerfs.

How is magicka warden supposed to survive when Arctic heals for less or according to your bidding, even loses its heal entirely? The Polar Wind morph can gladly lose it and be turned into your suggestions. Though who would use that in pvp?
Spores are way too expensive as a heal in my opinion and heal for even less.

When tendrils is the only good heal, then Wardens would just go the magicka Nightblade route of crying for a burst heal. (Even though magblades already have one of the best healing over time with all tools combined)

if you didn't read what i said, i suggested that trellis have it's healing increased by 55% to be on par with blessing of restoration before major mending. arctic blast is such a problem in cp that it is absolutely in need of changing. polar wind is the far better morph for pve, so removing it from tanks in pve who use it in order to get arctic blast would be a really bad idea. if arctic blast 3.0 was reworked into the 4.0 suggestion, everyone who is a magden would use it for it's superior offensive stun, and combo worthy damage. as it currently stands, arctic blast's stun is extremely annoying to fight against for a lot of classes, and really hard to combo with. the only stuns we can use outside of the class are flame clench which requires the use of the fire staff and knocks targets back, or vampire which isn't that great in actual practice and requires vampirism.

This would force wardens into either a high spell damage setup to make spores good enough as a burst heal or when they build for health and take polar wind, they lose the stun.

something needs to be done about the absurd effect of health stacking in pvp. but also, no, again, if you read what i said, trellis should be buffed. the burst heal. blessing of restoration heals for more than shrooms, meaning you can use trellis as a solo heal if you really don't have room.

Stahlor

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

something needs to be done about the absurd effect of health stacking in pvp.

I already made a suggestion a while ago, but the PVPers didn't like it. Damage penalty depending on high health. 1% damage reduction for every 500 more health starting at 20k health.

The result would be, people would need to decide for damage or tankiness. Squishy characters would be rewarded for being squishy. --> no 35k+ health characters anymore dealing insane damage.