Dungeon Story Mode - Redacted

Iccotak

NOTE: I changed my mind on this thread a long while ago. Dungeons don't need a story mode - People need to get better at playing the game and socializing with others. It's an MMORPG that heavily focuses on combat - it is not a single player point & click adventure. - If you want certain rewards or to play certain activities then you gotta play the way it was designed and possibly play with other people

If anything the rest of the overland content needs to stop being ONLY in "Story Mode"

This is my idea for a solution to the problem that players are having with being rushed while trying to experience the story in the dungeons.

Clearly not everyone is doing the dungeons whether that’s due to the skill needed to play many of the group dungeons on normal or veteran, OR the spoiled experience of being rushed while trying to enjoy the story and not being able to do that story again despite the dungeon being repeatable.

Idea: NPC Adventure Party
Implement a Story mode option for one player paired with upwards to three NPC adventurers.

The player can set the pace for taking their time with the story.

The NPC team communicate and coordinate with the player to clearly relay the mechanics of dungeons.

This way when they get into a player group they have a better idea of what they’re getting into.

It will of course be easier and have considerably less rewards. If they want to farm then they can join the group queue. It just makes sense and would be simple for both New and Vet.

This is a quality of life feature that would also encourage people to participate in the dungeons of the Year Long Story. This is bridging the gap and creating less exclusionary experiences.

Meaning more people might buy them - in case ZOS needs financial incentive to make this.

Maybe do something similar for the Trials

- END

Sylvermynx

I like it! That would be perfect for me, as my ping is so high (satellite being the only connection - besides dialup - available to me here) that doing group content would be asking people to put up with a group member who is totally ineffective.

zvavi

Sylvermynx wrote: »

I like it! That would be perfect for me, as my ping is so high (satellite being the only connection - besides dialup - available to me here) that doing group content would be asking people to put up with a group member who is totally ineffective.

You will be surprised how bad dds are in dungeons sometimes. Just slot 4 aoe dots, recast all 4 every 10 seconds, and you deal more damage than average dd in normal. (In proper gear probably though, any 2 magicka damage sets will do really).

Or if you are tank wear selfish sets, something like bahara curse leeching plate and just taunt boss, sets will give enough survivability for even most non dlc vet hard modes. (you can complete leeching plate without running the dlc dungeon once, Just buy tons of keys and open the chest in the begining of the dungeon).

As healer... A bit more problematic, some people try to die.

idk

It really only needs one NPC assistant, if that. A story mode would be intended to be easy enough that a very casual or new player could clear it without significant challenge. As such it would be easier, and more likely to happen, if Zos merely made the instance easy and eliminated any mechanics or requirements that would require more than one person. That last part would be required regardless as an NPC would not know to step on the second pressure plate in Direfrost.

A solo story mode has been suggested multiple times since Zos adopted the year-long story design. If they made it easy and eliminated gear drops then there would be no issue. Gear drops could not be part of this idea any longer due to the sticker book system Zos just added to the game. A story mode would require green drops which would mean reconstruction would be green. Granted, I have thousands of blue upgrade matts but it is the point of things.

My point is just to keeps things simple.

Iccotak

idk wrote: »

As such it would be easier, and more likely to happen, if Zos merely made the instance easy and eliminated any mechanics or requirements that would require more than one person. That last part would be required regardless as an NPC would not know to step on the second pressure plate in Direfrost.

sounds like something that could be programmed.

imo with normal being rushed so often and not giving other players time to explore and figure things out - story mode could be used to get players somewhat familiar with the mechanics of the boss.

Clearly coordinating and voices saying
- "Hey this is how you do this"
- "Hey go over there"
- "Watch out for X which does Y"

Sure it might be simpler to just turn off many of the mechanics to make it easy. But I can also see complaints happening from players who do the story mode - not learn any mechanics or get an idea of what they're in for - and then get into normal or vet and be confused; "Why didn't I learn any of this?"

Story Mode would as a feature serves more than one purpose for those that want to enjoy the story - it also gets players acquainted with dungeons before they get into harder difficulties.

(btw I was going to edit the other post on "Solo & Group PvE" to be a modified version of this idea and thus a different discussion from the one that's being had here. It was duplicate as placeholder until I got back to it. Also I appreciate different input - it's like sampling different groups)

idk

Iccotak wrote: »

idk wrote: »

As such it would be easier, and more likely to happen, if Zos merely made the instance easy and eliminated any mechanics or requirements that would require more than one person. That last part would be required regardless as an NPC would not know to step on the second pressure plate in Direfrost.

sounds like something that could be programmed.

imo with normal being rushed so often and not giving other players time to explore and figure things out - story mode could be used to get players somewhat familiar with the mechanics of the boss.

Clearly coordinating and voices saying
- "Hey this is how you do this"
- "Hey go over there"
- "Watch out for X which does Y"

Sure it might be simpler to just turn off many of the mechanics to make it easy. But I can also see complaints happening from players who do the story mode - not learn any mechanics or get an idea of what they're in for - and then get into normal or vet and be confused; "Why didn't I learn any of this?"

Story Mode would as a feature serves more than one purpose for those that want to enjoy the story - it also gets players acquainted with dungeons before they get into harder difficulties.

(btw I was going to edit the other post on "Solo & Group PvE" to be a modified version of this idea and thus a different discussion from the one that's being had here. It was duplicate as placeholder until I got back to it. Also I appreciate different input - it's like sampling different groups)

Just FYI, soon after the game launched in 2014, we had a serious problem with the first door in vet Wayrest not opening. The NPCs would not start their dialogue, or not finish it which was required for the door to open. Fast forward to today, over 6.5 years later, and we still have a problem with that door not opening because the NPC dialogue does not progress sometimes.

BTW. when it bugs out the dungeon has to be restarted. Fortunately, the Wayrest issue is near the start of the instance.

No offense, but your suggestion is to add more NPCs to the game that would be needed to open other doors and assume it will work flawlessly and will not result in waste the time as this door is not near the start of the instance.

Let us not forget there are fights where an NPC or NPCs spawn and need to be killed before a specific player is killed. When it is the player that is targeted and can't fight back we are going to just cross our fingers and hope it does not bug out?

So my thought that simple is better is based on my experience with the game.

FrancisCrawford

A LOT of complaints could be addressed by adding a simple toggle for difficulty.

A "Very Easy" setting (with zero drops and no quest credit) would address most of the story mode desires. It also would help people who want to look at fights they're having trouble with to understand them better.

Hard settings would help those people who think easy quest bosses take away from story/RP pleasure -- without making them also slog through tough trash fights if they don't want to.

Key point: The rewards in non-standard difficulties have to be very stingy. Why? Because then there's no need to worry about balance, and the system could be both easy for ZoS to implement and simple for players to understand.

Anotherone773

The simple fix is to just split the queues into two categories. One for casual/inexperienced runners and one for advanced/speed runners. Some think this would make queues take longer but i think it would speed them up as people like me are more likely to queue a lot more often. I normally play tanks and heals in group content and i would run dungeons a lot more if my experience was a lot better

ZaroktheImmortal

This is why I do my first go of a dungeon with friends who will wait for me to go through quest dialogue.

Iccotak

Anotherone773 wrote: »

The simple fix is to just split the queues into two categories. One for casual/inexperienced runners and one for advanced/speed runners. Some think this would make queues take longer but i think it would speed them up as people like me are more likely to queue a lot more often. I normally play tanks and heals in group content and i would run dungeons a lot more if my experience was a lot better

I also normally play tank

This suggestion sounds unnecessarily complicated.

There’s only one difficulty/mode that needs to be made for those who want to enjoy the story at their pace. Like idk said; keep it simple

@FrancisCrawford do you mean toggle difficulty in the middle of a dungeon? Because that doesn’t exactly solve the problem and sounds and extremely easy to exploit.

Anotherone773

Iccotak wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

The simple fix is to just split the queues into two categories. One for casual/inexperienced runners and one for advanced/speed runners. Some think this would make queues take longer but i think it would speed them up as people like me are more likely to queue a lot more often. I normally play tanks and heals in group content and i would run dungeons a lot more if my experience was a lot better

I also normally play tank

This suggestion sounds unnecessarily complicated.

There’s only one difficulty/mode that needs to be made for those who want to enjoy the story at their pace. Like idk said; keep it simple

How is it possibly complicated? Its really simple. Do you want to run with more advanced players, blitzers, fast pledgers, etc? If the answer is yes, check this box. It if it no, leave it at the default( unchecked). The queue line you are put in depends on if you checked the box. That is not difficult at all.

Jeremy

Anotherone773 wrote: »

The simple fix is to just split the queues into two categories. One for casual/inexperienced runners and one for advanced/speed runners. Some think this would make queues take longer but i think it would speed them up as people like me are more likely to queue a lot more often. I normally play tanks and heals in group content and i would run dungeons a lot more if my experience was a lot better

I think this is the best solution too. Though having a training run for players to practice in and prepare for dungeons and combat roles would be a nice addition to the game too. But creating a separate story mode for every dungeon I think sets the wrong goal for a MMORPG. Players should be encouraged to group with one another and Lord knows this game has enough solo content as it is.

But we do need a system in place to weed out the speed runners so new players can actually enjoy doing dungeons again.

Iccotak

Anotherone773 wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

The simple fix is to just split the queues into two categories. One for casual/inexperienced runners and one for advanced/speed runners. Some think this would make queues take longer but i think it would speed them up as people like me are more likely to queue a lot more often. I normally play tanks and heals in group content and i would run dungeons a lot more if my experience was a lot better

I also normally play tank

This suggestion sounds unnecessarily complicated.

There’s only one difficulty/mode that needs to be made for those who want to enjoy the story at their pace. Like idk said; keep it simple

How is it possibly complicated? Its really simple. Do you want to run with more advanced players, blitzers, fast pledgers, etc? If the answer is yes, check this box. It if it no, leave it at the default( unchecked). The queue line you are put in depends on if you checked the box. That is not difficult at all.

ZOS has already spoken out numerous times about struggles with the current Group Finder now you’re creating 2-3 new filter categories on top of choosing normal or veteran difficulty. (which again the developers have said they are still struggling with)

That doesn’t sound so simple once it’s laid out.

Edit: and it doesn’t solve the problem for those who just want to enjoy the story. Because anybody, no matter their play style could choose to opt in to somebody else’s instance. - So if I choose casual there’s still a good chance that an advanced rusher will purposefully choose casual.

Edit #2: @Jeremy the only way to weed out Speed Runners is to create a mode that provides No incentive for them to play and grind repeatedly. A Story Mode that doesn't really have any rewards to speak of and is just for one player to play the story - is quite possibly the only thing that they would have Zero interest in.

Jeremy

Iccotak wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

The simple fix is to just split the queues into two categories. One for casual/inexperienced runners and one for advanced/speed runners. Some think this would make queues take longer but i think it would speed them up as people like me are more likely to queue a lot more often. I normally play tanks and heals in group content and i would run dungeons a lot more if my experience was a lot better

I also normally play tank

This suggestion sounds unnecessarily complicated.

There’s only one difficulty/mode that needs to be made for those who want to enjoy the story at their pace. Like idk said; keep it simple

How is it possibly complicated? Its really simple. Do you want to run with more advanced players, blitzers, fast pledgers, etc? If the answer is yes, check this box. It if it no, leave it at the default( unchecked). The queue line you are put in depends on if you checked the box. That is not difficult at all.

ZOS has already spoken out numerous times about struggles with the current Group Finder now you’re creating 2-3 new filter categories on top of choosing normal or veteran difficulty. (which again the developers have said they are still struggling with)

That doesn’t sound so simple once it’s laid out.

Edit: and it doesn’t solve the problem for those who just want to enjoy the story. Because anybody, no matter their play style could choose to opt in to somebody else’s instance. - So if I choose casual there’s still a good chance that an advanced rusher will purposefully choose casual.

I doubt many advanced players just looking for a speed run would opt out of the option to specifically queue up for speed runs. The vast majority of these players are not trying to troll new players, rather just grind more efficiently. I could be wrong. But I think it would be effective.

Iccotak

Jeremy wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

The simple fix is to just split the queues into two categories. One for casual/inexperienced runners and one for advanced/speed runners. Some think this would make queues take longer but i think it would speed them up as people like me are more likely to queue a lot more often. I normally play tanks and heals in group content and i would run dungeons a lot more if my experience was a lot better

I also normally play tank

This suggestion sounds unnecessarily complicated.

There’s only one difficulty/mode that needs to be made for those who want to enjoy the story at their pace. Like idk said; keep it simple

How is it possibly complicated? Its really simple. Do you want to run with more advanced players, blitzers, fast pledgers, etc? If the answer is yes, check this box. It if it no, leave it at the default( unchecked). The queue line you are put in depends on if you checked the box. That is not difficult at all.

ZOS has already spoken out numerous times about struggles with the current Group Finder now you’re creating 2-3 new filter categories on top of choosing normal or veteran difficulty. (which again the developers have said they are still struggling with)

That doesn’t sound so simple once it’s laid out.

Edit: and it doesn’t solve the problem for those who just want to enjoy the story. Because anybody, no matter their play style could choose to opt in to somebody else’s instance. - So if I choose casual there’s still a good chance that an advanced rusher will purposefully choose casual.

I doubt many advanced players just looking for a speed run would opt out of the option to specifically queue up for speed runs. The vast majority of these players are not trying to troll new players, rather just grind more efficiently. I could be wrong. But I think it would be effective.

1. Advanced and Speed Run overlap way too much (EDIT: and I am not sure that @Anotherone773 meant that they were two separate categories. if they did that means they propose up to 4 more filters on top of Normal & Vet - which is a lot more complicated to do than it sounds)
2. The Vast majority of Speed Runners aren't Trolls, this is true - the reality is that in many cases they just don't care and will do what is faster. If that means the speed run queue time is taking too long then they'll try loading into an advanced instance.

Jeremy

Iccotak wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

The simple fix is to just split the queues into two categories. One for casual/inexperienced runners and one for advanced/speed runners. Some think this would make queues take longer but i think it would speed them up as people like me are more likely to queue a lot more often. I normally play tanks and heals in group content and i would run dungeons a lot more if my experience was a lot better

I also normally play tank

This suggestion sounds unnecessarily complicated.

There’s only one difficulty/mode that needs to be made for those who want to enjoy the story at their pace. Like idk said; keep it simple

How is it possibly complicated? Its really simple. Do you want to run with more advanced players, blitzers, fast pledgers, etc? If the answer is yes, check this box. It if it no, leave it at the default( unchecked). The queue line you are put in depends on if you checked the box. That is not difficult at all.

ZOS has already spoken out numerous times about struggles with the current Group Finder now you’re creating 2-3 new filter categories on top of choosing normal or veteran difficulty. (which again the developers have said they are still struggling with)

That doesn’t sound so simple once it’s laid out.

Edit: and it doesn’t solve the problem for those who just want to enjoy the story. Because anybody, no matter their play style could choose to opt in to somebody else’s instance. - So if I choose casual there’s still a good chance that an advanced rusher will purposefully choose casual.

I doubt many advanced players just looking for a speed run would opt out of the option to specifically queue up for speed runs. The vast majority of these players are not trying to troll new players, rather just grind more efficiently. I could be wrong. But I think it would be effective.

1. Advanced and Speed Run overlap way too much
2. The Vast majority aren't Trolls this is true - in many cases they just don't care and will do what is faster. If that means the speed run queue time is taking too long then they'll try loading into an advanced instance.

I might have misunderstood the context. So that's what I get for not reading through the entire conversation before commenting.

I'm not sure about an advanced option. That does sound like it would overlap. But just adding a speed run option to normal dungeon queues players just looking to finish asap could either check or not check would help a lot I think.

Iccotak

Jeremy wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

The simple fix is to just split the queues into two categories. One for casual/inexperienced runners and one for advanced/speed runners. Some think this would make queues take longer but i think it would speed them up as people like me are more likely to queue a lot more often. I normally play tanks and heals in group content and i would run dungeons a lot more if my experience was a lot better

I also normally play tank

This suggestion sounds unnecessarily complicated.

There’s only one difficulty/mode that needs to be made for those who want to enjoy the story at their pace. Like idk said; keep it simple

How is it possibly complicated? Its really simple. Do you want to run with more advanced players, blitzers, fast pledgers, etc? If the answer is yes, check this box. It if it no, leave it at the default( unchecked). The queue line you are put in depends on if you checked the box. That is not difficult at all.

ZOS has already spoken out numerous times about struggles with the current Group Finder now you’re creating 2-3 new filter categories on top of choosing normal or veteran difficulty. (which again the developers have said they are still struggling with)

That doesn’t sound so simple once it’s laid out.

Edit: and it doesn’t solve the problem for those who just want to enjoy the story. Because anybody, no matter their play style could choose to opt in to somebody else’s instance. - So if I choose casual there’s still a good chance that an advanced rusher will purposefully choose casual.

I doubt many advanced players just looking for a speed run would opt out of the option to specifically queue up for speed runs. The vast majority of these players are not trying to troll new players, rather just grind more efficiently. I could be wrong. But I think it would be effective.

1. Advanced and Speed Run overlap way too much
2. The Vast majority aren't Trolls this is true - in many cases they just don't care and will do what is faster. If that means the speed run queue time is taking too long then they'll try loading into an advanced instance.

But just adding a speed run option to normal dungeon queues players just looking to finish asap could either check or not check would help a lot I think.

Like I said

The Vast majority aren't Trolls this is true - in many cases they just don't care and will do what is faster. If that means the speed run queue time is taking too long then they'll try loading into a different instance.

the only way to weed out Speed Runners is to create a mode that provides No incentive for them to play and grind repeatedly. A Story Mode that doesn't really have any rewards to speak of and is just for one player to play the story - is quite possibly the only thing that they would have Zero interest in.

If the concern is not discouraging players from getting together then give the story mode a solo or group option

Jeremy

Iccotak wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

The simple fix is to just split the queues into two categories. One for casual/inexperienced runners and one for advanced/speed runners. Some think this would make queues take longer but i think it would speed them up as people like me are more likely to queue a lot more often. I normally play tanks and heals in group content and i would run dungeons a lot more if my experience was a lot better

I also normally play tank

This suggestion sounds unnecessarily complicated.

There’s only one difficulty/mode that needs to be made for those who want to enjoy the story at their pace. Like idk said; keep it simple

How is it possibly complicated? Its really simple. Do you want to run with more advanced players, blitzers, fast pledgers, etc? If the answer is yes, check this box. It if it no, leave it at the default( unchecked). The queue line you are put in depends on if you checked the box. That is not difficult at all.

ZOS has already spoken out numerous times about struggles with the current Group Finder now you’re creating 2-3 new filter categories on top of choosing normal or veteran difficulty. (which again the developers have said they are still struggling with)

That doesn’t sound so simple once it’s laid out.

Edit: and it doesn’t solve the problem for those who just want to enjoy the story. Because anybody, no matter their play style could choose to opt in to somebody else’s instance. - So if I choose casual there’s still a good chance that an advanced rusher will purposefully choose casual.

I doubt many advanced players just looking for a speed run would opt out of the option to specifically queue up for speed runs. The vast majority of these players are not trying to troll new players, rather just grind more efficiently. I could be wrong. But I think it would be effective.

1. Advanced and Speed Run overlap way too much
2. The Vast majority aren't Trolls this is true - in many cases they just don't care and will do what is faster. If that means the speed run queue time is taking too long then they'll try loading into an advanced instance.

But just adding a speed run option to normal dungeon queues players just looking to finish asap could either check or not check would help a lot I think.

Like I said

The Vast majority aren't Trolls this is true - in many cases they just don't care and will do what is faster. If that means the speed run queue time is taking too long then they'll try loading into a different instance.

the only way to weed out Speed Runners is to create a mode that provides No incentive for them to play and grind repeatedly. A Story Mode that doesn't really have any rewards to speak of and is just for one player to play the story - is quite possibly the only thing that they would have Zero interest in.

If the concern is not discouraging players from getting together then give the story mode a solo or group option

I imagine the queue time for speed runs would be much faster. So I don't think you would have to worry about that. It would probably be the regular normal queue that would suffer and take longer as a result.

Iccotak

Jeremy wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

The simple fix is to just split the queues into two categories. One for casual/inexperienced runners and one for advanced/speed runners. Some think this would make queues take longer but i think it would speed them up as people like me are more likely to queue a lot more often. I normally play tanks and heals in group content and i would run dungeons a lot more if my experience was a lot better

I also normally play tank

This suggestion sounds unnecessarily complicated.

There’s only one difficulty/mode that needs to be made for those who want to enjoy the story at their pace. Like idk said; keep it simple

How is it possibly complicated? Its really simple. Do you want to run with more advanced players, blitzers, fast pledgers, etc? If the answer is yes, check this box. It if it no, leave it at the default( unchecked). The queue line you are put in depends on if you checked the box. That is not difficult at all.

ZOS has already spoken out numerous times about struggles with the current Group Finder now you’re creating 2-3 new filter categories on top of choosing normal or veteran difficulty. (which again the developers have said they are still struggling with)

That doesn’t sound so simple once it’s laid out.

Edit: and it doesn’t solve the problem for those who just want to enjoy the story. Because anybody, no matter their play style could choose to opt in to somebody else’s instance. - So if I choose casual there’s still a good chance that an advanced rusher will purposefully choose casual.

I doubt many advanced players just looking for a speed run would opt out of the option to specifically queue up for speed runs. The vast majority of these players are not trying to troll new players, rather just grind more efficiently. I could be wrong. But I think it would be effective.

1. Advanced and Speed Run overlap way too much
2. The Vast majority aren't Trolls this is true - in many cases they just don't care and will do what is faster. If that means the speed run queue time is taking too long then they'll try loading into an advanced instance.

But just adding a speed run option to normal dungeon queues players just looking to finish asap could either check or not check would help a lot I think.

Like I said

The Vast majority aren't Trolls this is true - in many cases they just don't care and will do what is faster. If that means the speed run queue time is taking too long then they'll try loading into a different instance.

the only way to weed out Speed Runners is to create a mode that provides No incentive for them to play and grind repeatedly. A Story Mode that doesn't really have any rewards to speak of and is just for one player to play the story - is quite possibly the only thing that they would have Zero interest in.

If the concern is not discouraging players from getting together then give the story mode a solo or group option

I imagine the queue time for speed runs would be much faster. So I don't think you would have to worry about that.

that is Not a variable I would want to bet on or leave up to them.

Anotherone773

Jeremy wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

The simple fix is to just split the queues into two categories. One for casual/inexperienced runners and one for advanced/speed runners. Some think this would make queues take longer but i think it would speed them up as people like me are more likely to queue a lot more often. I normally play tanks and heals in group content and i would run dungeons a lot more if my experience was a lot better

I think this is the best solution too. Though having a training run for players to practice in and prepare for dungeons and combat roles would be a nice addition to the game too. But creating a separate story mode for every dungeon I think sets the wrong goal for a MMORPG. Players should be encouraged to group with one another and Lord knows this game has enough solo content as it is.

But we do need a system in place to weed out the speed runners so new players can actually enjoy doing dungeons again.

Well you would have:
1) Casual/inexperienced: This is for people who want a more relaxed run, are still learning the dungeon and its mechanics, people doing the story/quest, or enjoy helping newer players. People in this group are likely to be more role focused as well.

2) Advanced/speed: This is for more experienced players who already did the quest, are familiar with the dungeon and have played it fully through many times. These players are confident in their ability to keep pace and contribute to an experienced group of runners. This group will include speed runners, HM runners( in vet), and experienced pledge runners. Players in this group tend to care less about roles.

I also think that this group should not require a role check. If you are speed running and running with more experienced players then you should know how to support yourself and your teammates without having a dedicated role. At least for some of the dungeons.

Anotherone773

Iccotak wrote: »

I also normally play tank

This suggestion sounds unnecessarily complicated.

There’s only one difficulty/mode that needs to be made for those who want to enjoy the story at their pace. Like idk said; keep it simple

Except a "story mode" doesn't solve the problem for most of the people. Especially one with NPCs like has been suggested. My suggestion solves the problem for everyone not one tiny group. People who want to speed run and want to just blow through the content can. The rest of us can have a relaxing dungeon run with newbies and questers and people learning their characters or are poorly geared. Because those of us asking for something to allow us to do casual runs with like minded people dont mind any of those people in the dungeons. In fact i would rather play with that group than the other group. It is more enjoyable.

Iccotak wrote: »

ZOS has already spoken out numerous times about struggles with the current Group Finder now you’re creating 2-3 new filter categories on top of choosing normal or veteran difficulty. (which again the developers have said they are still struggling with)

Its really not that difficult to add. They coded this whole game but a little drop down filter just completely stumps them??? Sure. Maybe its a good thing MS is taking over. MS can send them some interns to show them how to add more options to a menu.

Iccotak wrote: »

Edit: and it doesn’t solve the problem for those who just want to enjoy the story. Because anybody, no matter their play style could choose to opt in to somebody else’s instance. - So if I choose casual there’s still a good chance that an advanced rusher will purposefully choose casual.

But why would they? This is group content we are talking about. We dont need to make it a solo instance. We have plenty of solo content. You can do the story anyway. We can fix this issue if you missed the story or want to rerun it for the story. Put the quest giver back at the beginning of the instance and if you talk to them again they give you the option to reset the quest story. You wont get any rewards you collected from it but you can play through the quest again as if its your first time.

Iccotak wrote: »

Edit #2: @Jeremy the only way to weed out Speed Runners is to create a mode that provides No incentive for them to play and grind repeatedly. A Story Mode that doesn't really have any rewards to speak of and is just for one player to play the story - is quite possibly the only thing that they would have Zero interest in.

They wouldnt have an interest in a casual run either because everyone would be inexperienced are purposely slow. Why would they torture themselves with dungeon runners they typically despise? Most of these speed runners are looking to do pledges on a bunch of characters or to farm transmutes or some other such. They only care about blitzing the dungeon. Why would they purposely hinder themselves with a casual group when they have the option to run with experienced people who are also wanting to blow through the content?

[snip]

[edited for baiting]

Iccotak

[snip]

A variation of a "Story Mode" feature is basically what many people have been asking for in these forums for a while now because they don't want to play with others who's goal is to just get the gear. Because that goal tends to override their ability to take their time and pace the story - this is their complaint that they have said many many many times.

We dont need to make it a solo instance.

That's right and I conceded that players should be able to get a group of friends to enjoy the story mode with.
However, keep in mind that plenty of others have expressed a desire to just play them by themselves.

We have plenty of solo content.

In the past, I have also made proposals of giving the Main Story Bosses difficulty settings that would include group play options. I am not against Group Play and agree that there should be more of it. But I am addressing a very specific issue which is that people often can't enjoy the dungeon stories because they have a group to answer to, who they don't want to hold up and/or they have speed runners.

This is not a casual or advanced issue. Or a speed runner issue. - This is "I want to enjoy the dungeon at my own pace" which is a request I have seen numerous times on these threads and am seeking a solution to.

imo there will always be speed runners on normal & veteran. Even in your proposal. I've seen similar proposals in the past and others came to the similar conclusion.
That is why I proposed a separate instance that a player (or four) could enjoy at their leisure.

Its really not that difficult to add. They coded this whole game but a little drop down filter just completely stumps them??? Sure. Maybe its a good thing MS is taking over. MS can send them some interns to show them how to add more options to a menu.

Group Finder has had numerous issues since Day 1. They recently spoke out on how they currently don't have plans for a Trial Group Finder because they are still having issues with Group Finder as it is.
I am not a coder but if they are having trouble with just two filters then I can see issues with adding 2-3 more filters. Keep in mind it is not just a drop down filter - it is a filter for pairing a group of players into the same instance. That's alot of traffic.

Now it's no longer Normal and Veteran, now it is;
- Normal (Casual) & Normal (Advanced)
- Veteran (Casual) & Veteran (Advanced)

That is now four filters, twice what they are currently having issues with.
Then there's Role Filters - meaning each Difficulty + Playstyle niche gets three filters.

So what was originally 6 (Difficulty x Role) is now ((Difficulty x Playstyle) x Role) adding up to 12 filters.

btw Veteran(advanced) players absolutely focus on. There are many demands on DD, Tank, and the Healer - no one really cares about that in casual normal experiences, until the later level dungeons that is. Especially the DLC dungeons

Each filter with a probable potential to be longer because they are all more niche.

Let's Address this point
I said

it doesn’t solve the problem for those who just want to enjoy the story. Because anybody, no matter their play style could choose to opt in to somebody else’s instance. - So if I choose casual there’s still a good chance that an advanced rusher will purposefully choose casual.

To which you asked: Why would they do that?

Answer: Because they will often do what is most immediately convenient. That is what's happening right now. They choose Normal for faster grind and faster queue times.

So in your hypothetical proposal; your hope is that the "advanced setting" will just have good queue loading time - but what you don't take into account is that if it ever doesn't, then there will be speed runners that will go to different queues and just might have easier loading time.

So let's say that Veteran(Advanced) gets too slow - then those players go over to Normal(Advanced) and/or Veteran(Casual) in hopes of faster queue times. They get in and ruin the experience and then we are back at the same problem all over again.

What if I want to advance from Normal(Casual) to Normal(Advanced) and then I find myself with Speed Runners?

Another problem is that it runs under the assumption that I as an Veteran(Advanced) player want to play with Speed Runners. Very rarely do I want that because the stereotypical speed runner tends to spoil the experience because they don't cooperate.

They only care about blitzing the dungeon. Why would they purposely hinder themselves with a casual group when they have the option to run with experienced people who are also wanting to blow through the content?

And if they can't get that then they'll blast right through anyway. Like I have seen other Speed Runners say.

So yes I disagree with the idea because
1. It further complicates the issues of Group Finder ZOS has already stated
2. From my viewpoint it looks like an extension of the same problem
3. It wouldn't really solve the issue of players who want to take their time with the story - that is a separate issue from resolving speed runners across the board.

Edited to more clearly explain certain points

[edited for baiting]

Anotherone773

@Iccotak
[snip]

A variation of a "Story Mode" feature is basically what many people have been asking for in these forums for a while now because they don't want to play with others who's goal is to just get the gear. Because that goal tends to override their ability to take their time and pace the story - this is their complaint that they have said many many many times.

But its not. I have been on these forums a long time and this is not something that comes up often. In fact, it is relatively new. It would also only solve the issue of a tiny fraction of people and it only does so once while you play through the story.

But I am addressing a very specific issue which is that people often can't enjoy the dungeon stories because they have a group to answer to, who they don't want to hold up and/or they have speed runners.

Yes, you addressed a specific issue, which is fine. But it doesn't solve the larger issue. We could solve the bigger issues more people have been complaining about for longer and improve the game for a lot of people or solve the issue for a tiny group of people that only need that one thing once.

This is not a casual or advanced issue. Or a speed runner issue. - This is "I want to enjoy the dungeon at my own pace" which is a request I have seen numerous times on these threads and am seeking a solution to.

That is what a casual mode is for, to enjoy at your own pace. When you run with a group of casual players, it really doesn't matter to them if you want to do the story.

I've seen similar proposals in the past and others came to the similar conclusion.
That is why I proposed a separate instance that a player (or four) could enjoy at their leisure.

You can enjoy it at your leisure with 4 players, hand pick your players but it really wouldn't be a problem. There are two types of people in dungeons. People who want to blow through content because they want the rewards and people who enjoy running dungeons and like to do them at a relaxed pace. Every single person falls in one of those two groups. You either want to blow through it because this is your 500th run or you don't care this is your 500th run you just running dungeons. The latter group really doesn't mind if someone is doing the story.

Group Finder has had numerous issues since Day 1. They recently spoke out on how they currently don't have plans for a Trial Group Finder because they are still having issues with Group Finder as it is.

I am not going to get into a whole conversation about the group finder. It is not as big of deal as they make it out to be. They just don't want to the effort into fixing it because it doesn't make any money and they dont consider it a game breaking feature. That is what governs their to do list. It either has to make money or be a game breaking feature. That is why they slapped a bandaid on it and said " its to complicated". Its not complicated, they just built it poorly because they didnt care about it. Which is literally the entire reason pvp is the way it is.

But it is perfectly doable. And there is a lot more that people have been asking for on the group finder including trials as you mentioned which i would personally love and some battleground requests as well.

Answer: Because they will often do what is most immediately convenient. That is what's happening right now. They choose Normal for faster grind and faster queue times.

That depends on their goal. There is no reason to do vet mode if you can get what you want on normal. But you underestimate people. Why would they run the same exact dungeon with people who are going to purposely be slow and they will end up needing to carry if they try to go fast, when they could just run the dungeon as a fake heals or tank on advanced and run with people who will "pull their own weight" and who will likely be able to keep up and will likely not care they queued as a fake anyway? They aren't going to drop down to a casual dungeon, they are just going to queue as a fake tank or healer and the people in advanced are not going to care near as much as the casuals.

1. It further complicates the issues of Group Finder ZOS has already stated

It really doesnt complicate the issues. The group finder does need rebuilt from scratch. There is just no way for them to make money off it and its not game breaking yet. So it gets put on the back burner. I am hoping MS makes them refocus a bit on fixing stuff rather than just pumping out money making content. As a business owner, i can say these patch jobs they do to everything instead of properly fixing them cost them a lot more money in the long run but i guess they are not looking that far ahead.

. From my viewpoint it looks like an extension of the same problem

I disagree. I know why people blitz dungeons and why people want to mosey through dungeons. They are two separate groups of people that look at dungeon running differently. Their views on this content are not compatible. You need to separate those groups so that they only run with people like them regardless of what their minor goal is.

3. It wouldn't really solve the issue of players who want to take their time with the story - that is a separate issue from resolving speed runners across the board.

It would mostly solve it. Casual dungeon runners don't really care if someone wants to do the story. We will loot, kill a few trash mobs, etc. Personally i always use the opportunity to loot containers.

I should note, that i am not against a story mode version of a dungeon. But unless they rebuild the group finder from the ground up we are probably only going to very limited improvements and i would much rather it be to split advanced players from casual players because that will affect everyone every time not just a few people once.

[edited for baiting]

etchedpixels

There are already two queues - normal and veteran. It's just ZOS got the incentives badly wrong on U28 and crystals.

Also in my experience most speed runners are well mannered - they speed run with other speed runners in guild groups - which is even more efficient. It's just you'll never encounter or know they exist from the pug queues.

hafgood

No definition of casual or advanced will ever be satisfactory to all, and has been said those wanting a quick dungeon are going to queue in the quickest queue regardless of what others may think.

I have no issues with a story mode, one that can be run in a group of 1 to 4 like the normal / vet modes. The only difference is there can be no rewards for completing it as such, nor should they get the achievements unless new achievements are introduced.

FrancisCrawford

Iccotak wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

The simple fix is to just split the queues into two categories. One for casual/inexperienced runners and one for advanced/speed runners. Some think this would make queues take longer but i think it would speed them up as people like me are more likely to queue a lot more often. I normally play tanks and heals in group content and i would run dungeons a lot more if my experience was a lot better

I also normally play tank

This suggestion sounds unnecessarily complicated.

There’s only one difficulty/mode that needs to be made for those who want to enjoy the story at their pace. Like idk said; keep it simple

@FrancisCrawford do you mean toggle difficulty in the middle of a dungeon? Because that doesn’t exactly solve the problem and sounds and extremely easy to exploit.

@Iccotak,

If you toggle to easier difficulty, you lose all drops and all quest advancement until you go to a different zone or instance, or toggle back and wait out a non-trivial time. (And the whole system is deactivated Cyrodiil.) That solves most potential problems.

It's probably also a bit harsh for raw beginners. Simplest might be to not even unlock the feature until a character gets to a certain level.

What problems remain that those precautions don't solve?

Iccotak

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

The simple fix is to just split the queues into two categories. One for casual/inexperienced runners and one for advanced/speed runners. Some think this would make queues take longer but i think it would speed them up as people like me are more likely to queue a lot more often. I normally play tanks and heals in group content and i would run dungeons a lot more if my experience was a lot better

I also normally play tank

This suggestion sounds unnecessarily complicated.

There’s only one difficulty/mode that needs to be made for those who want to enjoy the story at their pace. Like idk said; keep it simple

@FrancisCrawford do you mean toggle difficulty in the middle of a dungeon? Because that doesn’t exactly solve the problem and sounds and extremely easy to exploit.

@Iccotak,

If you toggle to easier difficulty, you lose all drops and all quest advancement until you go to a different zone or instance, or toggle back and wait out a non-trivial time. (And the whole system is deactivated Cyrodiil.) That solves most potential problems.

It's probably also a bit harsh for raw beginners. Simplest might be to not even unlock the feature until a character gets to a certain level.

What problems remain that those precautions don't solve?

I don’t think you’re taking into account the implications of such a toggle system and how that’d actually work.

Also there’s already a difficulty setting for the dungeons and that’s not exactly the problem that I am talking about

Iccotak

hafgood wrote: »

No definition of casual or advanced will ever be satisfactory to all, and has been said those wanting a quick dungeon are going to queue in the quickest queue regardless of what others may think.

Exactly, a casual/advanced filter is too vague and is an unreliable variable.

Just hoping that their queue time is good and they never go to a different queue list is not a solution.

Also speed runners is a different issue from players who just want to do the story

Casual dungeon runners don't really care if someone wants to do the story.

That’s an unreliable variable

- end

FrancisCrawford

Iccotak wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

The simple fix is to just split the queues into two categories. One for casual/inexperienced runners and one for advanced/speed runners. Some think this would make queues take longer but i think it would speed them up as people like me are more likely to queue a lot more often. I normally play tanks and heals in group content and i would run dungeons a lot more if my experience was a lot better

I also normally play tank

This suggestion sounds unnecessarily complicated.

There’s only one difficulty/mode that needs to be made for those who want to enjoy the story at their pace. Like idk said; keep it simple

@FrancisCrawford do you mean toggle difficulty in the middle of a dungeon? Because that doesn’t exactly solve the problem and sounds and extremely easy to exploit.

@Iccotak,

If you toggle to easier difficulty, you lose all drops and all quest advancement until you go to a different zone or instance, or toggle back and wait out a non-trivial time. (And the whole system is deactivated Cyrodiil.) That solves most potential problems.

It's probably also a bit harsh for raw beginners. Simplest might be to not even unlock the feature until a character gets to a certain level.

What problems remain that those precautions don't solve?

I don’t think you’re taking into account the implications of such a toggle system and how that’d actually work.

Also there’s already a difficulty setting for the dungeons and that’s not exactly the problem that I am talking about

I've posted the idea a couple of times, and you're the first person I recall responding this way. Unfortunately, I haven't guessed what difficulties you've thought of that nobody else has.

Lostar

I would love to see a story-driven mode where learning the lore of that dungeon is the ultimate goal, with or without NPCs. One of my biggest gripes about how ZoS handled the ESO IP is that Elder Scrolls has its incredible lore and yet we are denied knowing and immersing ourselves in the reason why we are in that dungeon in the first place. It's staggeringly poor foresight on ZoS's part and still requires rectification. I wholly endorse this idea and hope the developers take a serious look at how they failed us in this regard.

Wolfpaw

A separate story mode and dlc dungeon queue/random would be great.