The Gold Road Chapter – which includes the Scribing system – and Update 42 is now available to test on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/656454/
40k Health Werewolves
ItsNotLiving
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Can we please address the most absolutely disgusting play style ever to be in PvP and nerf werewolf. I can’t take hearing the howls on repeat as 12 players with 40k+ health battle it out.
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Ellimist_Entreri✭✭✭so nerf ww tanks because they queue for pvp... got it
Edited by Ellimist_Entreri on December 28, 2020 11:22PM1 -
ItsNotLiving✭✭✭✭Ellimist_Entreri wrote: »so nerf ww tanks because they queue for pvp... got it
Yes, unless you can tell me how you taunt in pve on a werewolf.Edited by ItsNotLiving on December 28, 2020 11:25PM1 -
Tommy_The_Gun✭✭✭✭✭
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Equip this set:ItsNotLiving wrote: »Ellimist_Entreri wrote: »so nerf ww tanks because they queue for pvp... got it
Yes, unless you can tell me how you taunt in pve on a werewolf.
https://eso-sets.com/set/tormentor
"(5 items) When you deal direct damage with a Charge, Leap, Teleport, or Pull ability, you gain 3642 Physical Resistance and Spell Resistance and taunt the enemy to attack you for 15 seconds."
...And Brutal Pounce becomes AOE taunt. Same as Stampede.
^ I know this because I run this build during Undaunted event. I paired tormentor with Ebon Armory + Earthgore or Mighty Chudan. And on top of that, Pack Leader gives you and your group Minor Courage, (+ 215 Weapon and Spell Damage). It was probably an overkill for normal base game dungeons, but I was testing this - and it worked. Also, I was testing people reaction and if they will kick a tank from group if it transforms into WW (but no one kicked me
)
Common knowledge is that WW does not have taunt, but not many ppl know about how Tormentor set can be used and it actually gives you a taunt, even in WW form.Edited by Tommy_The_Gun on December 28, 2020 11:42PM4 -
Taleof2Cities✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Don't forget to use the forums search every once in awhile before starting a new forums thread, @ItsNotLiving.
There are three werewolf threads on the front pages of various forums categories.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7065262#Comment_70652623 -
wheem_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
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The current version of the Werewolf self-heal absolutely needs a nerf for PvP's sake, and the fact that it would also help PvE balance is really just a bonus. Unless of course you think PvE healers should only be remotely relevant in the most difficult PvE content available, and pretty much deleted in everything else.Ellimist_Entreri wrote: »so nerf ww tanks because they queue for pvp... got it3 -
Ellimist_Entreri✭✭✭ItsNotLiving wrote: »Ellimist_Entreri wrote: »so nerf ww tanks because they queue for pvp... got it
Yes, unless you can tell me how you taunt in pve on a werewolf.
See the following quote which explained it much better than I could have, thank you friend!Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
Equip this set:ItsNotLiving wrote: »Ellimist_Entreri wrote: »so nerf ww tanks because they queue for pvp... got it
Yes, unless you can tell me how you taunt in pve on a werewolf.
https://eso-sets.com/set/tormentor
"(5 items) When you deal direct damage with a Charge, Leap, Teleport, or Pull ability, you gain 3642 Physical Resistance and Spell Resistance and taunt the enemy to attack you for 15 seconds."
...And Brutal Pounce becomes AOE taunt. Same as Stampede.
^ I know this because I run this build during Undaunted event. I paired tormentor with Ebon Armory + Earthgore or Mighty Chudan. And on top of that, Pack Leader gives you and your group Minor Courage, (+ 215 Weapon and Spell Damage). It was probably an overkill for normal base game dungeons, but I was testing this - and it worked. Also, I was testing people reaction and if they will kick a tank from group if it transforms into WW (but no one in kicked me )
Common knowledge is that WW does not have taunt, but not many ppl know about how Tormentor set can be used and it actually gives you a taunt, even in WW form.
Also... What does Taunting (A PVE mechanic) which you mentioned have to do with your OP/PVP (the context of this discussion)? Before you derail your own thread let's get back on topic;
Is it high health (40k+ as you defined) players, Werewolf players, the combination of the two (WW Tank for PVP purposes even without a taunt), or the amount of players you encounter using this "specific" (Note used sets are not noted by OP so anything relating to such is conjecture prior to further clarification) setup you have mentioned that you take issue with?
The current version of the Werewolf self-heal absolutely needs a nerf for PvP's sake, and the fact that it would also help PvE balance is really just a bonus. Unless of course you think PvE healers should only be remotely relevant in the most difficult PvE content available, and pretty much deleted in everything else.Ellimist_Entreri wrote: »so nerf ww tanks because they queue for pvp... got it
As a Tank main I personally find healers are typically optional in all but vet DLC content, and even then if the DPS pumps out enough damage no healer needed. I am sure the DPS mains feel the same regarding both Tanks and Healers being optional. That is an issue with Healer and Tank balancing compared to DPS. Nerfing a Tanks self heal is just a knee-jerk reaction and an altogether unhelpful solution that doesn't actually address balance in any way and would only server to hinder Tanks without improving any of the underlying issues.
You really want to talk balance let's discuss how the "Elites" run 4 dps and don't need a tank or healer for much of the vet DLC content.
Satire/ Nerf DPS instead /Satire (;Edited by Ellimist_Entreri on December 29, 2020 3:07PM1 -
ItsNotLiving✭✭✭✭
You wanted werewolf to remain the most dominant spec in PvP because you said it would nerf tanks which I assume is in PvE and taunting is the most basic function required for any tank build in PvE. I don’t get why you would want werewolf to be able to pull 95k+ dps and also be a tanking spec it is not a class it is a skill that should not be able do everything in the game. What’s next you want the heal to be AoE and run amber seducers to heal?Ellimist_Entreri wrote: »ItsNotLiving wrote: »Ellimist_Entreri wrote: »so nerf ww tanks because they queue for pvp... got it
Yes, unless you can tell me how you taunt in pve on a werewolf.
See the following quote which explained it much better than I could have, thank you friend!Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
Equip this set:ItsNotLiving wrote: »Ellimist_Entreri wrote: »so nerf ww tanks because they queue for pvp... got it
Yes, unless you can tell me how you taunt in pve on a werewolf.
https://eso-sets.com/set/tormentor
"(5 items) When you deal direct damage with a Charge, Leap, Teleport, or Pull ability, you gain 3642 Physical Resistance and Spell Resistance and taunt the enemy to attack you for 15 seconds."
...And Brutal Pounce becomes AOE taunt. Same as Stampede.
^ I know this because I run this build during Undaunted event. I paired tormentor with Ebon Armory + Earthgore or Mighty Chudan. And on top of that, Pack Leader gives you and your group Minor Courage, (+ 215 Weapon and Spell Damage). It was probably an overkill for normal base game dungeons, but I was testing this - and it worked. Also, I was testing people reaction and if they will kick a tank from group if it transforms into WW (but no one in kicked me )
Common knowledge is that WW does not have taunt, but not many ppl know about how Tormentor set can be used and it actually gives you a taunt, even in WW form.
Also... What does Taunting (A PVE mechanic) which you mentioned have to do with your OP/PVP (the context of this discussion)? Before you derail your own thread let's get back on topic;
Is it high health (40k+ as you defined) players, Werewolf players, the combination of the two (WW Tank for PVP purposes even without a taunt), or the amount of players you encounter using this "specific" (Note used sets are not noted by OP so anything relating to such is conjecture prior to further clarification) setup you have mentioned that you take issue with?
The current version of the Werewolf self-heal absolutely needs a nerf for PvP's sake, and the fact that it would also help PvE balance is really just a bonus. Unless of course you think PvE healers should only be remotely relevant in the most difficult PvE content available, and pretty much deleted in everything else.Ellimist_Entreri wrote: »so nerf ww tanks because they queue for pvp... got it
As a Tank main I personally find healers are typically optional in all but vet DLC content, and even then if the DPS pumps out enough damage no healer needed. I am sure the DPS mains feel the same regarding both Tanks and Healers being optional. That is an issue with Healer and Tank balancing compared to DPS. Nerfing a Tanks self heal is just a knee-jerk reaction and an altogether unhelpful solution that doesn't actually address balance in any way and would only server to hinder Tanks without improving any of the underlying issues.
You really want to talk balance let's discuss how the "Elites" run 4 dps and don't need a tank or healer for much of the vet DLC content.
Satire/ Nerf DPS instead /Satire (;
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Ellimist_Entreri✭✭✭ItsNotLiving wrote: »
You wanted werewolf to remain the most dominant spec in PvP because you said it would nerf tanks which I assume is in PvE and taunting is the most basic function required for any tank build in PvE. I don’t get why you would want werewolf to be able to pull 95k+ dps and also be a tanking spec it is not a class it is a skill that should not be able do everything in the game. What’s next you want the heal to be AoE and run amber seducers to heal?Ellimist_Entreri wrote: »ItsNotLiving wrote: »Ellimist_Entreri wrote: »so nerf ww tanks because they queue for pvp... got it
Yes, unless you can tell me how you taunt in pve on a werewolf.
See the following quote which explained it much better than I could have, thank you friend!Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
Equip this set:ItsNotLiving wrote: »Ellimist_Entreri wrote: »so nerf ww tanks because they queue for pvp... got it
Yes, unless you can tell me how you taunt in pve on a werewolf.
https://eso-sets.com/set/tormentor
"(5 items) When you deal direct damage with a Charge, Leap, Teleport, or Pull ability, you gain 3642 Physical Resistance and Spell Resistance and taunt the enemy to attack you for 15 seconds."
...And Brutal Pounce becomes AOE taunt. Same as Stampede.
^ I know this because I run this build during Undaunted event. I paired tormentor with Ebon Armory + Earthgore or Mighty Chudan. And on top of that, Pack Leader gives you and your group Minor Courage, (+ 215 Weapon and Spell Damage). It was probably an overkill for normal base game dungeons, but I was testing this - and it worked. Also, I was testing people reaction and if they will kick a tank from group if it transforms into WW (but no one in kicked me )
Common knowledge is that WW does not have taunt, but not many ppl know about how Tormentor set can be used and it actually gives you a taunt, even in WW form.
Also... What does Taunting (A PVE mechanic) which you mentioned have to do with your OP/PVP (the context of this discussion)? Before you derail your own thread let's get back on topic;
Is it high health (40k+ as you defined) players, Werewolf players, the combination of the two (WW Tank for PVP purposes even without a taunt), or the amount of players you encounter using this "specific" (Note used sets are not noted by OP so anything relating to such is conjecture prior to further clarification) setup you have mentioned that you take issue with?
The current version of the Werewolf self-heal absolutely needs a nerf for PvP's sake, and the fact that it would also help PvE balance is really just a bonus. Unless of course you think PvE healers should only be remotely relevant in the most difficult PvE content available, and pretty much deleted in everything else.Ellimist_Entreri wrote: »so nerf ww tanks because they queue for pvp... got it
As a Tank main I personally find healers are typically optional in all but vet DLC content, and even then if the DPS pumps out enough damage no healer needed. I am sure the DPS mains feel the same regarding both Tanks and Healers being optional. That is an issue with Healer and Tank balancing compared to DPS. Nerfing a Tanks self heal is just a knee-jerk reaction and an altogether unhelpful solution that doesn't actually address balance in any way and would only server to hinder Tanks without improving any of the underlying issues.
You really want to talk balance let's discuss how the "Elites" run 4 dps and don't need a tank or healer for much of the vet DLC content.
Satire/ Nerf DPS instead /Satire (;
No friend, you are misinterpreting and/or selectively reading what I write and attempting to twist my words to suit your motive - take those games elsewhere they won't work on me.
Also you are incorrect. I never once said anything about caring at all regarding who or what is dominant in PVP. Just clarifying that the changes suggested so far won't solve the issue you have and will only hamper the playstyle outside of the PVP environment.
It sounds like your real complaint is Werewolves playing PVP in general - specifically the fact that they can do damage and not die in the process. Maybe you should focus your efforts towards a resolution on that aspect instead, it would be a much more productive use of time. Something like, reduce damage and self heals by x% in PVP. If your interest truly is in "balance for PVP sake" then a sandbox specific adjustment shouldn't be offensive to you!Edited by Ellimist_Entreri on December 29, 2020 3:44PM1 -
wheem_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
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The primary issue with Werewolves in PvP is that they're basically tanks who also have tip-top self healing, solid damage, AOE fear that can't be blocked or dodged, and access to both Major and Minor Defile (though at least those debuffs got nerfed with Markarth).Ellimist_Entreri wrote: »Is it high health (40k+ as you defined) players, Werewolf players, the combination of the two (WW Tank for PVP purposes even without a taunt), or the amount of players you encounter using this "specific" (Note used sets are not noted by OP so anything relating to such is conjecture prior to further clarification) setup you have mentioned that you take issue with?
There are several different build variations, but one of the most obnoxious to play against is the duo that runs BGs with each of them wearing the Knight Slayer set. They'll focus fire targets, and get literally >= 3/4 of their damage from doing nothing but holding down the left mouse button, while much of that damage also ignores all forms of defense. And if you try to counter-pressure, a few howls and maybe some brief dodge/sprint/LOS will take care of most anything that isn't a full team's focus fire (and if you're not in a full premade, good luck with that).
Trying to kill a halfway decent Werewolf on your own in no-CP is a lesson in futility for most builds. With the heal being so incredibly strong on a per-GCD basis, and WW being able to get so much damage from light/heavy attacks and procs, you can't even really put them on the back foot most of the time. And most of us stand 0 chance to escape them under normal circumstances as well, especially with the wolf pets triggering the bugged Hamstring snare, which goes straight through immunity.
Certain self heals are plainly overpowered on tanks. Maybe damage on certain classes/builds is too high as well, but that's really beside the point.Ellimist_Entreri wrote: »As a Tank main I personally find healers are typically optional in all but vet DLC content, and even then if the DPS pumps out enough damage no healer needed. I am sure the DPS mains feel the same regarding both Tanks and Healers being optional. That is an issue with Healer and Tank balancing compared to DPS. Nerfing a Tanks self heal is just a knee-jerk reaction and an altogether unhelpful solution that doesn't actually address balance in any way and would only server to hinder Tanks without improving any of the underlying issues.
You really want to talk balance let's discuss how the "Elites" run 4 dps and don't need a tank or healer for much of the vet DLC content.
Satire/ Nerf DPS instead /Satire (;2 -
Ellimist_Entreri✭✭✭
The primary issue with Werewolves in PvP is that they're basically tanks who also have tip-top self healing, solid damage, AOE fear that can't be blocked or dodged, and access to both Major and Minor Defile (though at least those debuffs got nerfed with Markarth).Ellimist_Entreri wrote: »Is it high health (40k+ as you defined) players, Werewolf players, the combination of the two (WW Tank for PVP purposes even without a taunt), or the amount of players you encounter using this "specific" (Note used sets are not noted by OP so anything relating to such is conjecture prior to further clarification) setup you have mentioned that you take issue with?
There are several different build variations, but one of the most obnoxious to play against is the duo that runs BGs with each of them wearing the Knight Slayer set. They'll focus fire targets, and get literally >= 3/4 of their damage from doing nothing but holding down the left mouse button, while much of that damage also ignores all forms of defense. And if you try to counter-pressure, a few howls and maybe some brief dodge/sprint/LOS will take care of most anything that isn't a full team's focus fire (and if you're not in a full premade, good luck with that).
Trying to kill a halfway decent Werewolf on your own in no-CP is a lesson in futility for most builds. With the heal being so incredibly strong on a per-GCD basis, and WW being able to get so much damage from light/heavy attacks and procs, you can't even really put them on the back foot most of the time. And most of us stand 0 chance to escape them under normal circumstances as well, especially with the wolf pets triggering the bugged Hamstring snare, which goes straight through immunity.
Ellimist_Entreri wrote: »As a Tank main I personally find healers are typically optional in all but vet DLC content, and even then if the DPS pumps out enough damage no healer needed. I am sure the DPS mains feel the same regarding both Tanks and Healers being optional. That is an issue with Healer and Tank balancing compared to DPS. Nerfing a Tanks self heal is just a knee-jerk reaction and an altogether unhelpful solution that doesn't actually address balance in any way and would only server to hinder Tanks without improving any of the underlying issues.
You really want to talk balance let's discuss how the "Elites" run 4 dps and don't need a tank or healer for much of the vet DLC content.
Satire/ Nerf DPS instead /Satire (;
Certain self heals are plainly overpowered on tanks. Maybe damage on certain classes/builds is too high as well, but that's really beside the point.
Let's start with this - first off thank you for clarifying what specifics regarding WW you feel are imbalanced, that is a good start towards a productive discourse on the topic.
For the general WW facets you mentioned, from playing a WW in a PVE environment myself I agree they were likely designed with a PVE mindset and likely need additional tuning to be balanced in combination with other factors such as a players gear (sets) and champion points in a PVP environment. Tuning being the key here; there is a difference between adjusting portions of what is in fact its own sub-class in that it has its own set of skills that supersede those chosen by the player, and a blanket nerf that generally just kills off whatever it is applied to until a buff pass is done later on. I am looking forward to seeing what tuning suggestions are made!
Regarding the Knight Slayer set you mentioned specifically - is there an adjustment you can think of (potentially a decrease in bonus by x%) that would help to balance it and prevent the issue you mentioned?
I feel like this could potentially be an issue where balancing the sets so they are tuned for WW may also nerf them as far as being usable by any non WW. It might be worth the additional coding/character checks for sets to have WW specific values that are active when the player is transformed in order to maintain a balanced yet viable set.
As far as 1v1 on a WW I would expect there to be certain build requirements for that to be viable, otherwise what is the point of using WW if every build can kill it with no trouble? There would be none. Just like not every build can counter a true Tanking build (though admittedly the full tank has minimal DPS compared to the WW) 1v1. From what I have seen so far it sounds like the set you mentioned buffing non ability damage & bypassing defenses (as well as others likely designed without WW in mind) and proc sets (which are their own pandoras box & you can find numerous threads to discuss them already on the forums let's not derail this one ^_^) are actually the true issue here and the WW just throws fuel onto an already raging fire.
"bugged Hamstring snare, which goes straight through immunity" - That needs to get fixed for sure.
On the topic of self heals in general being "overpowered" on Tanks as you put it, again I feel like that is a PVP specific problem (as in PVE the number of times those self heals have allowed me as a tank to carry 3 DPS ~including the bad dps that queued as heals to skip waiting~ through content is many) that best case scenario calls for a PVP specific sandbox adjustment. Also I believe this discussion is primarily focused on WW's and not Tanks in general, again let's not derail things too much discussing unrelated specifics! As far as the WW self heal I can see how it could feel unbalanced in PVP to see a player you almost killed practically fill up their health off of one heal. I would think a PVP specific adjustment to how much healing it does combined with an increase to the penalty from recasting it (heals for less after each cast until x amount of other skills are used) would be a fitting and helpful solution to that specific issue.
EDIT: Numerous edits for grammar/punctuation/readabilityEdited by Ellimist_Entreri on December 29, 2020 5:05PM0 -
ItsNotLiving✭✭✭✭Ellimist_Entreri wrote: »
The primary issue with Werewolves in PvP is that they're basically tanks who also have tip-top self healing, solid damage, AOE fear that can't be blocked or dodged, and access to both Major and Minor Defile (though at least those debuffs got nerfed with Markarth).Ellimist_Entreri wrote: »Is it high health (40k+ as you defined) players, Werewolf players, the combination of the two (WW Tank for PVP purposes even without a taunt), or the amount of players you encounter using this "specific" (Note used sets are not noted by OP so anything relating to such is conjecture prior to further clarification) setup you have mentioned that you take issue with?
There are several different build variations, but one of the most obnoxious to play against is the duo that runs BGs with each of them wearing the Knight Slayer set. They'll focus fire targets, and get literally >= 3/4 of their damage from doing nothing but holding down the left mouse button, while much of that damage also ignores all forms of defense. And if you try to counter-pressure, a few howls and maybe some brief dodge/sprint/LOS will take care of most anything that isn't a full team's focus fire (and if you're not in a full premade, good luck with that).
Trying to kill a halfway decent Werewolf on your own in no-CP is a lesson in futility for most builds. With the heal being so incredibly strong on a per-GCD basis, and WW being able to get so much damage from light/heavy attacks and procs, you can't even really put them on the back foot most of the time. And most of us stand 0 chance to escape them under normal circumstances as well, especially with the wolf pets triggering the bugged Hamstring snare, which goes straight through immunity.
Ellimist_Entreri wrote: »As a Tank main I personally find healers are typically optional in all but vet DLC content, and even then if the DPS pumps out enough damage no healer needed. I am sure the DPS mains feel the same regarding both Tanks and Healers being optional. That is an issue with Healer and Tank balancing compared to DPS. Nerfing a Tanks self heal is just a knee-jerk reaction and an altogether unhelpful solution that doesn't actually address balance in any way and would only server to hinder Tanks without improving any of the underlying issues.
You really want to talk balance let's discuss how the "Elites" run 4 dps and don't need a tank or healer for much of the vet DLC content.
Satire/ Nerf DPS instead /Satire (;
Certain self heals are plainly overpowered on tanks. Maybe damage on certain classes/builds is too high as well, but that's really beside the point.
Let's start with this - first off thank you for clarifying what specifics regarding WW you feel are imbalanced, that is a good start towards a productive discourse on the topic.
For the general WW facets you mentioned, from playing a WW in a PVE environment myself I agree they were likely designed with a PVE mindset and likely need additional tuning to be balanced in combination with other factors such as a players gear (sets) and champion points in a PVP environment. Tuning being the key here; there is a difference between adjusting portions of what is in fact its own sub-class in that it has its own set of skills that supersede those chosen by the player, and a blanket nerf that generally just kills off whatever it is applied to until a buff pass is done later on. I am looking forward to seeing what tuning suggestions are made!
Regarding the Knight Slayer set you mentioned specifically - is there an adjustment you can think of (potentially a decrease in bonus by x%) that would help to balance it and prevent the issue you mentioned?
I feel like this could potentially be an issue where balancing the sets so they are tuned for WW may also nerf them as far as being usable by any non WW. It might be worth the additional coding/character checks for sets to have WW specific values that are active when the player is transformed in order to maintain a balanced yet viable set.
As far as 1v1 on a WW I would expect there to be certain build requirements for that to be viable, otherwise what is the point of using WW if every build can kill it with no trouble? There would be none. Just like not every build can counter a true Tanking build (though admittedly the full tank has minimal DPS compared to the WW) 1v1. From what I have seen so far it sounds like the set you mentioned buffing non ability damage & bypassing defenses (as well as others likely designed without WW in mind) and proc sets (which are their own pandoras box & you can find numerous threads to discuss them already on the forums let's not derail this one ^_^) are actually the true issue here and the WW just throws fuel onto an already raging fire.
"bugged Hamstring snare, which goes straight through immunity" - That needs to get fixed for sure.
On the topic of self heals in general being "overpowered" on Tanks as you put it, again I feel like that is a PVP specific problem (as in PVE the number of times those self heals have allowed me as a tank to carry 3 DPS ~including the bad dps that queued as heals to skip waiting~ through content is many) that best case scenario calls for a PVP specific sandbox adjustment. Also I believe this discussion is primarily focused on WW's and not Tanks in general, again let's not derail things too much discussing unrelated specifics! As far as the WW self heal I can see how it could feel unbalanced in PVP to see a player you almost killed practically fill up their health off of one heal. I would think a PVP specific adjustment to how much healing it does combined with an increase to the penalty from recasting it (heals for less after each cast until x amount of other skills are used) would be a fitting and helpful solution to that specific issue.
EDIT: Numerous edits for grammar/punctuation/readability
Go watch a certain Xbox player playing werewolf in one of kristofers top 5 PvP clips on YouTube his build is the problem because at least half of all Xbox players are playing the exact build he is using which is unkillable by 1 player who’s not using a werewolf thus everyone is playing a wolf build to counter other wolves leading to the most toxic few weeks of PvP I have seen in this game.0 -
Ellimist_Entreri✭✭✭ItsNotLiving wrote: »Ellimist_Entreri wrote: »
The primary issue with Werewolves in PvP is that they're basically tanks who also have tip-top self healing, solid damage, AOE fear that can't be blocked or dodged, and access to both Major and Minor Defile (though at least those debuffs got nerfed with Markarth).Ellimist_Entreri wrote: »Is it high health (40k+ as you defined) players, Werewolf players, the combination of the two (WW Tank for PVP purposes even without a taunt), or the amount of players you encounter using this "specific" (Note used sets are not noted by OP so anything relating to such is conjecture prior to further clarification) setup you have mentioned that you take issue with?
There are several different build variations, but one of the most obnoxious to play against is the duo that runs BGs with each of them wearing the Knight Slayer set. They'll focus fire targets, and get literally >= 3/4 of their damage from doing nothing but holding down the left mouse button, while much of that damage also ignores all forms of defense. And if you try to counter-pressure, a few howls and maybe some brief dodge/sprint/LOS will take care of most anything that isn't a full team's focus fire (and if you're not in a full premade, good luck with that).
Trying to kill a halfway decent Werewolf on your own in no-CP is a lesson in futility for most builds. With the heal being so incredibly strong on a per-GCD basis, and WW being able to get so much damage from light/heavy attacks and procs, you can't even really put them on the back foot most of the time. And most of us stand 0 chance to escape them under normal circumstances as well, especially with the wolf pets triggering the bugged Hamstring snare, which goes straight through immunity.
Ellimist_Entreri wrote: »As a Tank main I personally find healers are typically optional in all but vet DLC content, and even then if the DPS pumps out enough damage no healer needed. I am sure the DPS mains feel the same regarding both Tanks and Healers being optional. That is an issue with Healer and Tank balancing compared to DPS. Nerfing a Tanks self heal is just a knee-jerk reaction and an altogether unhelpful solution that doesn't actually address balance in any way and would only server to hinder Tanks without improving any of the underlying issues.
You really want to talk balance let's discuss how the "Elites" run 4 dps and don't need a tank or healer for much of the vet DLC content.
Satire/ Nerf DPS instead /Satire (;
Certain self heals are plainly overpowered on tanks. Maybe damage on certain classes/builds is too high as well, but that's really beside the point.
Let's start with this - first off thank you for clarifying what specifics regarding WW you feel are imbalanced, that is a good start towards a productive discourse on the topic.
For the general WW facets you mentioned, from playing a WW in a PVE environment myself I agree they were likely designed with a PVE mindset and likely need additional tuning to be balanced in combination with other factors such as a players gear (sets) and champion points in a PVP environment. Tuning being the key here; there is a difference between adjusting portions of what is in fact its own sub-class in that it has its own set of skills that supersede those chosen by the player, and a blanket nerf that generally just kills off whatever it is applied to until a buff pass is done later on. I am looking forward to seeing what tuning suggestions are made!
Regarding the Knight Slayer set you mentioned specifically - is there an adjustment you can think of (potentially a decrease in bonus by x%) that would help to balance it and prevent the issue you mentioned?
I feel like this could potentially be an issue where balancing the sets so they are tuned for WW may also nerf them as far as being usable by any non WW. It might be worth the additional coding/character checks for sets to have WW specific values that are active when the player is transformed in order to maintain a balanced yet viable set.
As far as 1v1 on a WW I would expect there to be certain build requirements for that to be viable, otherwise what is the point of using WW if every build can kill it with no trouble? There would be none. Just like not every build can counter a true Tanking build (though admittedly the full tank has minimal DPS compared to the WW) 1v1. From what I have seen so far it sounds like the set you mentioned buffing non ability damage & bypassing defenses (as well as others likely designed without WW in mind) and proc sets (which are their own pandoras box & you can find numerous threads to discuss them already on the forums let's not derail this one ^_^) are actually the true issue here and the WW just throws fuel onto an already raging fire.
"bugged Hamstring snare, which goes straight through immunity" - That needs to get fixed for sure.
On the topic of self heals in general being "overpowered" on Tanks as you put it, again I feel like that is a PVP specific problem (as in PVE the number of times those self heals have allowed me as a tank to carry 3 DPS ~including the bad dps that queued as heals to skip waiting~ through content is many) that best case scenario calls for a PVP specific sandbox adjustment. Also I believe this discussion is primarily focused on WW's and not Tanks in general, again let's not derail things too much discussing unrelated specifics! As far as the WW self heal I can see how it could feel unbalanced in PVP to see a player you almost killed practically fill up their health off of one heal. I would think a PVP specific adjustment to how much healing it does combined with an increase to the penalty from recasting it (heals for less after each cast until x amount of other skills are used) would be a fitting and helpful solution to that specific issue.
EDIT: Numerous edits for grammar/punctuation/readability
Go watch a certain Xbox player playing werewolf in one of kristofers top 5 PvP clips on YouTube his build is the problem because at least half of all Xbox players are playing the exact build he is using which is unkillable by 1 player who’s not using a werewolf thus everyone is playing a wolf build to counter other wolves leading to the most toxic few weeks of PvP I have seen in this game.
So then suggest a way to fix that build if that is the problem.
Or provide a description of the build along with your issues with it and we can discuss potential solutions.Edited by Ellimist_Entreri on December 29, 2020 6:20PM0 -
ItsNotLiving✭✭✭✭Capped resist, 2k+ health recovery, 40k health. It uses the malacath band with werewolf’s naturally high damage to kill. The choices are to nerf werewolf damage or the malacath band dealers choice.0
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Ellimist_Entreri✭✭✭ItsNotLiving wrote: »Capped resist, 2k+ health recovery, 40k health. It uses the malacath band with werewolf’s naturally high damage to kill. The choices are to nerf werewolf damage or the malacath band dealers choice.
A potential adjustment to Malacath that factors in a players WW status and if actively transformed adjusts the bonus granted accordingly sounds like a reasonable imo fix for that case - the remaining factors you mentioned are just a general playstyle (40k health is still small potatoes friend).
I stand by what I said previously that it seems like many of the Set & Mythic Bonuses were not designed with WW transform in mind and could probably use additional checks and stat balancing based on if the player is currently transformed!Edited by Ellimist_Entreri on December 29, 2020 7:37PM0 -
ItsNotLiving✭✭✭✭Ellimist_Entreri wrote: »ItsNotLiving wrote: »Capped resist, 2k+ health recovery, 40k health. It uses the malacath band with werewolf’s naturally high damage to kill. The choices are to nerf werewolf damage or the malacath band dealers choice.
A potential adjustment to Malacath that factors in a players WW status and if actively transformed adjusts the bonus granted accordingly sounds like a reasonable imo fix for that case - the remaining factors you mentioned are just a general playstyle (40k health is still small potatoes friend).
I stand by what I said previously that it seems like many of the Set & Mythic Bonuses were not designed with WW transform in mind and could probably use additional checks and stat balancing based on if the player is currently transformed!
Or since malacath isn’t a problem (excluding proc builds) just nerf werewolf damage to where they need to wear damage sets to do damage. A lot easier to do than put in set blocks on certain skills plus that sets a bad precedent.1 -
Ellimist_Entreri✭✭✭ItsNotLiving wrote: »Ellimist_Entreri wrote: »ItsNotLiving wrote: »Capped resist, 2k+ health recovery, 40k health. It uses the malacath band with werewolf’s naturally high damage to kill. The choices are to nerf werewolf damage or the malacath band dealers choice.
A potential adjustment to Malacath that factors in a players WW status and if actively transformed adjusts the bonus granted accordingly sounds like a reasonable imo fix for that case - the remaining factors you mentioned are just a general playstyle (40k health is still small potatoes friend).
I stand by what I said previously that it seems like many of the Set & Mythic Bonuses were not designed with WW transform in mind and could probably use additional checks and stat balancing based on if the player is currently transformed!
Or since malacath isn’t a problem (excluding proc builds) just nerf werewolf damage to where they need to wear damage sets to do damage. A lot easier to do than put in set blocks on certain skills plus that sets a bad precedent.
I understand now. You have no interest in reaching a compromise and will only be satisfied when werewolf is nerfed how you want regardless of potential other fixes suggested. I thank you for your time and the informative discussion!
EDIT: I never said to block sets from being used with certain skills, you are again either misinterpreting and/or selectively reading what I write and attempting to twist my words to suit your motive. I told you hours ago I would not play that nonsense.
Edited by Ellimist_Entreri on December 29, 2020 8:45PM1 -
Joinovikova✭✭✭✭ItsNotLiving wrote: »Can we please address the most absolutely disgusting play style ever to be in PvP and nerf werewolf. I can’t take hearing the howls on repeat as 12 players with 40k+ health battle it out.
Stilll better story then perma mistform ww at least can be stuned2 -
ItsNotLiving✭✭✭✭Ellimist_Entreri wrote: »ItsNotLiving wrote: »Ellimist_Entreri wrote: »ItsNotLiving wrote: »Capped resist, 2k+ health recovery, 40k health. It uses the malacath band with werewolf’s naturally high damage to kill. The choices are to nerf werewolf damage or the malacath band dealers choice.
A potential adjustment to Malacath that factors in a players WW status and if actively transformed adjusts the bonus granted accordingly sounds like a reasonable imo fix for that case - the remaining factors you mentioned are just a general playstyle (40k health is still small potatoes friend).
I stand by what I said previously that it seems like many of the Set & Mythic Bonuses were not designed with WW transform in mind and could probably use additional checks and stat balancing based on if the player is currently transformed!
Or since malacath isn’t a problem (excluding proc builds) just nerf werewolf damage to where they need to wear damage sets to do damage. A lot easier to do than put in set blocks on certain skills plus that sets a bad precedent.
I understand now. You have no interest in reaching a compromise and will only be satisfied when werewolf is nerfed how you want regardless of potential other fixes suggested. I thank you for your time and the informative discussion!
EDIT: I never said to block sets from being used with certain skills, you are again either misinterpreting and/or selectively reading what I write and attempting to twist my words to suit your motive. I told you hours ago I would not play that nonsense.
Sir werewolf is a skill and you said there should be checks between certain sets and werewolf lol0 -
Ellimist_Entreri✭✭✭ItsNotLiving wrote: »Ellimist_Entreri wrote: »ItsNotLiving wrote: »Ellimist_Entreri wrote: »ItsNotLiving wrote: »Capped resist, 2k+ health recovery, 40k health. It uses the malacath band with werewolf’s naturally high damage to kill. The choices are to nerf werewolf damage or the malacath band dealers choice.
A potential adjustment to Malacath that factors in a players WW status and if actively transformed adjusts the bonus granted accordingly sounds like a reasonable imo fix for that case - the remaining factors you mentioned are just a general playstyle (40k health is still small potatoes friend).
I stand by what I said previously that it seems like many of the Set & Mythic Bonuses were not designed with WW transform in mind and could probably use additional checks and stat balancing based on if the player is currently transformed!
Or since malacath isn’t a problem (excluding proc builds) just nerf werewolf damage to where they need to wear damage sets to do damage. A lot easier to do than put in set blocks on certain skills plus that sets a bad precedent.
I understand now. You have no interest in reaching a compromise and will only be satisfied when werewolf is nerfed how you want regardless of potential other fixes suggested. I thank you for your time and the informative discussion!
EDIT: I never said to block sets from being used with certain skills, you are again either misinterpreting and/or selectively reading what I write and attempting to twist my words to suit your motive. I told you hours ago I would not play that nonsense.
Sir werewolf is a skill and you said there should be checks between certain sets and werewolf lol
Checks and adjustments are not the same as blocks and preventing the use of. Argue cyclically all you want, it doesn't improve your position.0 -
Ellimist_Entreri✭✭✭ItsNotLiving wrote: »Explain how the check would work in your head then.
I already did in a post you quoted but apparently failed to read using another set as an example. It is simple enough to implement programmatically and the code can be reused for other cases once written.
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-Greg-Edited by ZOS_GregoryV on December 29, 2020 10:38PMThe Elder Scrolls Online: Tamriel Unlimited - ZeniMax Online Studios
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